Open Letter To PM Yingluck Re: Updating Laws Affecting Foreigners From Drew Noyes

[mijan24]

This has to be the most idiotic thing ever, I take it the person responsible for this naive idea has just arrived in Thailand as anyone who has spent time here knows quite defiantly that NON Thais are viewed as buffalo dung by any Thai elite or Hi-So

More like an advertising campaign that has also not been thought about........oh and good luck on renewing your work Permit and company registry as you will be well and truly placed on the watch list

Take it from me over 40 years here ...NOTHING will ever change for the good of Foreigners here especially the 4 points raised

Just look how a Thai woman gives up here rights when marrying a non Thai

Always interested to hear views from anyone but especially one that has been here 40+ years, would you care to expand on "what rights a Thai woman gives up by marrying a Non Thai" Off topic a little but still on the trend of advantage/disadvantage.

[Beetlejuice]

When will foreigners accept the fact that asians enjoy being treated equally with us in the west but westerners are treated as 3rd rate interlopers in thailand. As a farang i would be in far more trouble for exterminating a soi dog than a Thai would be for killing a foreigner expecially if they know influential people. Foreigners will probably never have equal rights with Thais. They dont really want us here. Its always about the money.

They only marry european men for their assets bought in LOS and even back home. An Australian recently lost his house in Australia to his Thai-isan wife in a divorce settlement. He owned the house before marrying the creep. We cant win.

Many of the Thai people and Thailand bashers on here are those that have been conned by a Thai lady because of they’re love sick naivety and lack of good judgment, living in a make believe never, never land and ripe for exploitation or were not able to hack it up in Thailand through bad planning and of their own incompetence.

In other words total losers that leaves them with a grudge to bear. In many cases the actual reasons for failure goes way above their heads and unable to evaluate their own ineptitudes, but preferring to blame others for the failure to live a particular preferred lifestyle.

[Felt 35]

…. as some already have pointed out if it’s not of any economical benefits for Thailand it will not materialize whoever write a letter to the PM......

Edited January 9, 2012 by metisdead
Font reset, use default forum font when posting.

[EvolvingApe]

I fear that this letter will go straight to the grey file.

It would have been good to have proofread the letter at least one more time before sending it.

I can see several instances of inconsistencies and spelling mistakes.

-"not accepted into Thai society like a women"

-"At 60 baht to the pound if his monthly pension is 13,500 pounds per month (1,112 pounds per month)"

-"foreign men married to Thai women cannot become Thai citizens and must re-qualify every year for a one-year visa to stay in Thailand,"

Not quite true. It is easier for foreign women married to Thai men to become citizens, but foreign men can become Thai citizens if married to a Thai woman, but the requirements are much stricter.

Such things matter if you are going to send an open letter to a Prime Minister.

True that the mistakes need correction before being made public although I must say it was written far better than I had feared when I first saw the headline. From the looks of it, too late for correction now. At least it's at a level high enough that it's unlikely the PM could do better.

[Topprofile]

"But now at least 30 million baht inbound funds is required for an investor’s visa."

A quick call to the Bangkok immigration office and we had the reply that 10 million is needed for an investment visa.

Someone like Drew, with his close relationship with Pattaya Immigration and also running a Law and Visa firm, might want to check the facts before writing such a letter... One even might go as far and say he should know this without checking the facts before writing the letter...

[tracy3eyes]

You will need more than luck to even have this read! Been here 9 years and I can tell you that we are not wanted by the majority only our money, thus little will change in regards to issues like this. Thailand does not give the same respect to expat as other countries do! Sorry but it is true. Took my wife to my home country and within 3 years she had my countries passport. Here I still have a battle with a visa and we have 2 children aged 4 & 6. Too much insular cave thinking here!

[tracy3eyes]

Oh and too much zen!!

[Satcommlee]

Do you think Khun Drew is on speaking terms with Buddha too?

Actually Drew is an advisor to Buddha also.

[prefabs]

Drew is already living his dream. Dream on, buddy. Look at the latest edition of his newspaper. A pile of simpering sucking up to mayors and businessmen. Unless I missed it, there has not been a single crime committed or reported in the latest issue. Pattaya news media reports on crime most of the time.

[prefabs]

According to LinkedIn Drew Noyes, Sr. is a “Bachlor (sic) of Science, Journalism with minor in International Marketing”.

I am curious if there is a junior too.

He has many juniors. 9 or 10 to several women at the last count. Deadbeat Dad is one description we have heard of him over the years

[samsiam]

Do you think Khun Drew is on speaking terms with Buddha too?

Actually Drew is an advisor to Buddha also.

That is hearsay and speculation....how dare it be allowed on here

[tracy3eyes]

Sorry! I meant Xenophobia.

[Arkady]

1) Foreign ownership of condominiums.

The mechanism he describes whereby foreign registered units can trade at a premium, if the foreign limit is full, has existed in the Thai stock market, since the 80s and doesn't cause much angst to foreign or Thai investors. Foreigners are allowed to own condos in their own name. This one seems to be a non-issue to most foreigners who are free to find another building if one is full. Only realtors and developers complain about it and the latter are operating illegally anyway.

2) Foreign men married to Thai women.

This "famous" Pattaya law firm has overlooked the fact that the Nationality Act was amended in 2008 to reduce the discrimination against men married to Thai women vis a vis rights to apply for Thai citizenship. The 2008 amendment made two major concessions in this area: 1) foreign males with Thai wives no longer require permanent residence to apply for citizenship; 2) they no longer need to have knowledge of the Thai language (i.e. in fact they no longer need to sing the Royal and National Anthems). Today the majority of applicants for Thai citizenship by naturalisation are in fact males applying on the basis of their marriages to Thai women.

Making it quite obvious that he hasn't even bothered to read the law he is complaining about is a good enough reason to ignore the whole thing. Pathetic.

3) Foreigners who own their home, but cannot meet the annual financial requirements set by Immigration to stay legally in Thailand;

There is no logic to this one. The Thai authorities have set minimum financial standards for foreigners to get one year retirement visas some years ago which were already rather low by international standards at the time. Thailand, like most countries, wants to ensure that retirees have the means to support themselves, including paying for medical care. Of course these standards are in Thai baht, not British pounds or any other foreign currency. If they drop the already low standards further in response to currency fluctuations, what would be the point of setting the standards in the first place? The costs the foreign retirees have to pay to live in Thailand don't go down when their home currency goes down. British pensioners are fortunate in that they do have the option to return home and enjoy the benefits of a developed country national health service, along with indexed pensions, heating allowances etc. Why should they become a burden to Thai taxpayers. What difference does it make to the Thai authorities if they own a home in Thailand or not?

4) Foreigners under 50 years of age who are still working outside of Thailand, but want to be based in Thailand and qualified for a stable visa by investing 3 million baht or more buying property, or investing in Thai stocks or depositing into Thai bank savings accounts formerly received a yearly, renewable non-immigrant visa, but now they no longer qualify for an investor's visa under current visa regulations.

Under the 1979 Immigration Act foreigners are entitled to an investment category visa in accordance with ministerial regulations which currently require 10 million baht in bank deposits or governement bonds. The amount of 10 million baht has not been increased for about 20 years. However, as a temporary measure to help boost the property sector after the 1997 financial crisis the amount was dropped for a few years to 3 million baht and investment in condos qualified. Since the temporary waiver was not renewed once the property sector had recovered, the amount reverted to 10 million baht. What is the problem here? It seems to be another complaint shot from the hip without bothering to read up relevant laws and regulations.

Summary

1. Point 1 is a non-issue, since the Condominium Act does allow foreign ownership.

2. Points 2 and 4 are nullified by the fact that the injustice complained about is non-existant and the author has not done even the most basic research into the laws and regulations he seeks to take issue with.

3. Point 3 is entirely illogical.

4. The foreign chambers of commerce are a far more effective and articulate forum for passing complaints of this nature to the government. The author would be well advised to coordinate with them, rather than try to convey the impression that he represents other foreigners in writing a letter than can be shot down by a first year Thai law student.

[Neurath]

Anyone so clearly and self-importantly desperate to appear to be speaking altruistically on behalf of others isn't to be trusted. Having read the "Open Letter", I first vomited violently because of its kaleidescopic grammer and then checked to see that my watch wasn't missing. Psycholanytically speaking the "Open Letter" appears to be plea of the following sort: "If the laws were different, I wouldn't have to behave the way I do".

[tracy3eyes]

Like I said it wont even get read! This does not do expats any favours!!!!

[vahack]

Personally, here's what I'd like to see changed - not that it ever will, but what the heck.

1) Establishment of an actual Marriage Visa - not a Non-O with Marriage/Family Etensions for 1 year. Make it valid for 1 year, then increased to a 5 year visa.

2) After the first year of marriage, have the right to buy up to one (1) rai of land to buid a house on, or buy an exsiting house, either in our own names or jointly with the wife.

3) Eliminate all 90 day reporting. Other than the renewal of a visa, the only time you should have to report is if there is a change in your status, i.e.: divorce, death of Thai spouse, new marriage, change of address.

4) For the retirement visa, change the laws regarding buying condo's & land/houses, to allow those with the financial means to do so.

5) Allow those with Retirement or Marriage visa to also obtain Work Permits which will allow them to work in the fields and areas for which they are quailified, which can't be done now. There is an untapped, and totally shunned, fountain of knowledge that many foreigners would be thrilled to have the opportunity to share, thereby benefiting the Thai.

i only need one of those things, since i have money and trust my wife to own the land, cars, etc. driving to Amnat every 90 days (6 hours round trip from Roi Et) is a pain in the ass. I lose a day of work - $60 an hour programming work. i don't mind checking in every 90 days tho, i just wish they'd open an Immigration office in Roi Et. there's a lot more farangs in Roi Et than there are in <snip!> Amnat.

oh, and regarding Thais getting Visas and citizenship in my home country - at least 2 of my wife's college friends have received US green cards after 5 years of living and being married in the US. she also has 1 friend who worked 2 years as a nanny in the US, couldn't get an extension (or husband) so went off the grid working without papers and travelling for 2 years. after that, she applied to a local college and received an Educational Visa without having to pay a dime in penalties or fees for her 2 years living without a Visa.

but of course, America is the land of opportunity. and Thailand isn't that lol

Edited January 9, 2012 by metisdead
Profanity removed.

[cedel]

After having worked and saved in my country ,or if I was selling my house in my country for instance, I would want to be able to buy a house (with land) here without beeing "borderline" with "companies" and beeing scared to lose one day the fruits of my savings ! How horrible is this feeling...(so is "dual-pricing btw..)

It's just a fundamental democratic right to have your own house with a small land around it !

As well as if I marry a thai national, I would apreciate to have a long term residence permit, without having to report (and pay) all the time !

I've heard so many bad stories about or even from retired foreigners who lost their house after having bought it in the name of ther thai wife (or girlfriend) !

This old-fashionned law should now be deleted or modernized.

We live in the 21st century where thai girls (like everywhere in the civilized countries) want to work, have internet on their phones, and live like "westerners".....so it is time to welcome those westerners and not cheat or take advantage of them, finally those foreigners also support the economy if you think about it....

So, after so many disasters or unrests who ruin the country, why not make it easier ?

Thanks to think about it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

[Quoting the OP] 4) Foreigners under 50 years of age who are still working outside of Thailand, but want to be based in Thailand and qualified for a stable visa by investing 3 million baht or more buying property, or investing in Thai stocks or depositing into Thai bank savings accounts formerly received a yearly, renewable non-immigrant visa, but now they no longer qualify for an investor's visa under current visa regulations.

[Responding to the OP] Under the 1979 Immigration Act foreigners are entitled to an investment category visa in accordance with ministerial regulations which currently require 10 million baht in bank deposits or governement bonds. The amount of 10 million baht has not been increased for about 20 years. However, as a temporary measure to help boost the property sector after the 1997 financial crisis the amount was dropped for a few years to 3 million baht and investment in condos qualified. Since the temporary waiver was not renewed once the property sector had recovered, the amount reverted to 10 million baht. What is the problem here? It seems to be another complaint shot from the hip without bothering to read up relevant laws and regulations.

Arkady, thanks for the thoughtful and clearly written post above...

Just curious, what happened to those folks who got the investment visa during the years when the required amount was reduced to 3 million baht? Were they grandfathered in at 3 million even when the requirement reverted to 10 million. Or did they suddenly find themselves either out of a visa or having to pony up another 7 million?

The one thing visa and investments requirements ought to have is some reliability and predictability. For example, as I understand it, when they raised the annual income amounts required for retirement extensions some years back, they grandfathered in people who had arrived in country by a certain point in time under the prior amounts.

Apart from the author of the OP letter and all that surrounds him and his motivations, I can see a reasonable argument being made that farang/foreigners here who have invested in businesses and/or housing/condos ought to be entitled to some credit for that in terms of meeting Immigration's financial requirements. And I have neither a business nor own property, so I'm not saying that out of any personal interest, just a sense of fairness and equity.

Edited January 9, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Payboy]

Would powers-that-be take more notice were they to receive a follow-up or reminder of sorts from Mamma Co., Ltd.?

[Metalgear]

Good Luck or not......I've left. :Life in Malaysia is far far better and far far cheaper. Tax free car purchase, cheap electricity, free wifi everywhere, fiber optic HD cable TV only THB 1000 baht or less ( no need for satelite dish and no disruption during heavy rain), English spoken everywhere, easy to buy properties, no quotas, can get mortgage easily, 3G nation wide coverage, cheap petrol (only 19 baht for Benzene 95), even have benzene 97, reasonable prices for western, indian, chinese, middle eastern food, organised and designated condo parking system, cheap highway tolls.....etc !!!

[Metalgear]

Good Luck or not......I've left. :Life in Malaysia is far far better and far far cheaper. Tax free car purchase, cheap electricity, free wifi everywhere, fiber optic HD cable TV only THB 1000 baht or less ( no need for satelite dish and no disruption during heavy rain), English spoken everywhere, easy to buy properties, no quotas, can get mortgage easily, 3G nation wide coverage, cheap petrol (only 19 baht for Benzene 95), even have benzene 97, reasonable prices for western, indian, chinese, middle eastern food, organised and designated condo parking system, cheap highway tolls.....etc !!!

Oh yes.....foreign spouse of Malaysians get PR in six months !! Thailand can't Beat that !

[Yeppe]

Fool´s errand to send a letter... I would give you Australia and part of Europe if things would change any better better from Farangs´s point of view - OK I could promise you the Earth and some planets too as it´s complete impossible that anti Farnag land would make farangs life easier - it just getting tougher day by day. See, even 3 month visa is so damned tough to get now a days compared 10 years ago - not even mention the marriage visa.....

Singapore is a lot easier place to stay - and less rubbish on the streets too :-)

[punisher]

Can i sum this up with fewer words? Please PM,can you treat foreigners fairly?? thank you.

To be honest with you I don't want to be treated like they treat Thai's trying to go to The States and Canada.

Canadian or American come to Thailand welcome. Thai go to Canada or the States get back on the plane and go to where ever you come from you are not rich enough to come here.

As for the financial requirements try to go to wherever you come from and then go to another countrie and say I have enough money to live on every month but if I am in a accident or get sick you will have to take care of me. And further more I don't want to learn your language you should learn mine.

OK I through that last bit in but it is so true for the majority of expats. I said majority not all many many do learn Thai.

Thailand is a 3rd.world country,Canada USA and many States in western Europe are 1st.World,so you can't compare apples with pears.

Once you are in USA or Germany or.... and you fulfill the requirements to stay,they leave you alone,you can buy land condos cars,can marry,you can do all you like,,same as an american or german can do.Just by the way it is not more difficult for thais to obtain a visa for USA or Germany,of course they will not give a visa to service girl from Pattaya,or any jobless person,in 80's a lot of thais came to germany and overstayed the visa or disappeared,90%of them worked in brothels,they did not wanna go home,because they made good money,because of them the requirements for thais to obtain a visa are stricter than before,if a thai try to get a visa for a schengen state and he or she can fulfill what is required then they get a visa without a problem.Whenever I go to german embassy I see alot of thais[90%are woman] sitting there,from the way they talk and dress it is for everybody clearly to see from which city in Thailand they come,and I have to say if I would be embassy staff,i would not issue a visa to them.I know a lot of thais with decent job or income and they never got any problem to obtain a visa,is a bit the same with us foreigner,if a foreigner goes to immigration and wear shorts flipflaps and sleevless shirt with a 30cm naked woman as tatoo on the arm,then I assume the immigration will not be amused,

[osiboy]

Please accept this letter as a request on behalf of many foreigners living in Thailand like myself.

And what gives this idiot the right to assume that I am one of the foreigners he writes on behalf of?

What this guy is suggesting is charity. Any farang that is self-independent and is financially stable should have no problems staying in Thailand for the long term. As for any foreigners that cannot hack it over here under the present imposed requirements and regulations, than who wants them here anyway and what use are they to Thailand? Pattaya is a major example of what would transpire if the gates were left wide open to these people.

If the present Immigration requirements were relaxed and the suggestions of this guy granted, than Thailand would become a grazing ground for Western poor, underclass’s, real estate speculators, business opportunists, criminals and marriages of convenience would become rife, plus becoming a major threat to Thai culture that could alienate the Thai people against us.

My vote would be to place more restrictions on Westerners entering Thailand not to decrease them. I prefer Thailand just the way it is, with the less farangs, the better.

so in your perfect "thai world " , there are only rich thais and rich farang allowed , anyone on an average thai or western income should choose to live where exactly ? , do you think the majority of farang on £20,000 per annum is incapable of loving and living because they dont earn as much as you ? an english teacher for example ?? , ..... i agree the less farang the better , but money does'nt buy you love or happiness, .......look around you , most of those smilling faces are on around 300b per day !! , if a "poor " farang can provide a better life with only 1000b per day , good luck to them , ....you ,on the otherhand will always have doubts if shes with you for your money , i hope oneday you will find out !

[tombkk]

I have the house...and the farm...live off of 20l baht retirement a month...and have a guy who runs my passport to the border or bangkok each month...and comes back with a visa....whats the problem?

The problem is that you are likely violating the law.

And I doubt that you own a house, or a farm. check the documents.

Not sure what 20 liters of Baht retirement are...

Edit: You are talking about beer of course. I should have known.

Edited January 9, 2012 by tombkk

[tombkk]

Always amusing to see how “native speakers” write their mother tongue.

When writing posts here and at other places, I always have Gmail open. I will write there, check the spelling, correct the American spellings where different from Oxford Dictionary English, then copy and paste over to the relevant thread.

You could also use the spell checker that becomes active in the browser while you reply. That's what I do.

[tombkk]

After having worked and saved in my country ,or if I was selling my house in my country for instance, I would want to be able to buy a house (with land) here without beeing "borderline" with "companies" and beeing scared to lose one day the fruits of my savings ! How horrible is this feeling...(so is "dual-pricing btw..)

It's just a fundamental democratic right to have your own house with a small land around it !

Really? While I'd like to own my own piece of land, I don't think it's a democratic right but a privilege. Please explain or send a link to explain your view.

[tombkk]

Good Luck or not......I've left. :Life in Malaysia is far far better and far far cheaper. Tax free car purchase, cheap electricity, free wifi everywhere, fiber optic HD cable TV only THB 1000 baht or less ( no need for satelite dish and no disruption during heavy rain), English spoken everywhere, easy to buy properties, no quotas, can get mortgage easily, 3G nation wide coverage, cheap petrol (only 19 baht for Benzene 95), even have benzene 97, reasonable prices for western, indian, chinese, middle eastern food, organised and designated condo parking system, cheap highway tolls.....etc !!!

Oh yes.....foreign spouse of Malaysians get PR in six months !! Thailand can't Beat that !

Good-bye then.

And, since we are at it, I talked with a Malaysian friend about the Second Home thing and how much better it is than what we get here in Thailand. His reply was short but indicated that many people want to retire in Thailand anyway, and Malaysia has to put in some effort to attract people.

[tombkk]

For a letter to the PM, this was quite poorly constructed...

One would think a letter of such import would be edited more than once.

If it was ever meant to be read by the PM. I think it was posted here just for amusement...

[tombkk]

...and that's all they can think of? What a self-centred and badly written worthless piece of paper!

THere are so many issues involving foreigners in Thailand and they have basically chosen to ask to make it cheaper to stay here and buy property - the result - more riffraff and scumbags.

what is needed is a relaxation in business and company law to enable foreigners to come here and make a REAL contribution to the country's economy and development.

but I guess that open letter is all you can expect to get when you leave a bunch of expats in a room full of beer over new year.

I like your last sentence.