Enforcing 'By Laws' In A Secure Development?

[cheshiremusicman]

I live in a 'gated community' which has 'Juristic body' registration. We have a set of 'Articles of association' and 'By laws' which we ask our members to abide by, but my question is this. If a member refuses to abide by the said 'By Laws' does anybody know of any means - legal of course, that we can implement them, or could we as a body vote on including a 'Fine' that would be added to the the regular fees that we all pay to run the estate. Is there any way that we could get such a resolution recognised as a 'Legally enforceable', provided that we incorporated this into are 'Articles of Association'. The members who form the elected 'Committee' would obviously prefer if this was the case, as they do not wish this to cause problems between neighbours if such an issue arose.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or references to Thai law would be most appreciated.

As another issue I wonder if anybody knows of any 'Community' here in Thailand that has restrictions on the number of 'household domestic pets' that each household may keep. I know that in many countries around the world this is the case, even to the extent of the number of fish that you can keep - mainly in condo's because of water damage if a huge tank breaks.

[necronx99]

Where any of these articles included as covenants on the land purchase?

[cheshiremusicman]

NO, the 'Articles of Association' were drawn up when we formed the 'Juristic body ( or person) ' and presented to the 'Land Office' for approval to the best of my knowledge.

[jayjayjayjay]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

[necronx99]

I don't know the Thai law specifically but I would think that attempting to limits a persons use and enjoyment of their personal property by a private treaty would be problematic at best. It's is quite different than applying rules in a condo where the purchase is conditional and the property is communal. If push came to show the person could, in all likelyhood, just leave the association.

[meatboy]

when you say you live on a gated community you mean a mooban,did you pay up front for a period of time for,security at entrance,street cleaner,rubbish collections,street lighting ect.what i have seen with moobans once the paid up period runs out it is handed to the residents to run,that is when the fun starts.some will pay some wont and the place will come to look like a shit house,about other things you have mentioned forget it or you will find yourself in deep shit with certain neighbours,its best if you keep your mouth shut because you will be on your own,or sell up and get out and dont buy on a mooban.please take this advice.

[travelmann]

From what I see here many Thais are too afraid to make any kind of fuss over anything like this, it appears the shitty people in society here can get away with this because of this system whereas in other countries someone would tell whoever it is they were a ( insert expletive) to their face.

[geriatrickid]

Everytime I read a thread like this, I thank the stars I followed the best piece of advice that I discovered in Thaivisa: A person like me should never ever purchase real estate in Thailand.

[pauljones]

The Thais are too afraid to raise a fuss because they know what can happen when you piss off the wrong person.

[moe666]

You have moved to Thailand things are a bit different here. Trying to get some cheap chiken s--t rules enfored, why, if thats what you want why did you leave where you came from. But having said that good luck, my friend lives in one and he just worries about his property and keeps it up.

[Kilgore Trout]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Idiot free country

Makes me think of a recent post where a Thai muslim owner of a apartment building prohibited the residents from drinking alcohol in their own rooms.

Western values.......try again Jay

[Langsuan Man]

This "Juristic person" that you formed means absolutely nothing, since these so called gated communities are not governed by the Condominium Law, which details the powers and responsibilities of Juristic persons . It's more like a book club, good luck in enforcing anything

[Eff1n2ret]

The 'gated community' or moo ban where I live is in the process of transferring ownership from the developers to what the OP describes as a 'juristic body' of residents, and I asked the OP's very question at a meeting some months ago. The point is that an obligation to pay a management fee was included in the contract with the developers for the original purchase of the property, but I wanted to know how that obligation could be transferred to a third party, and judging by the vague answer I got, unless you actually sign something agreeing to pay the new body they can't do much to enforce it. They said that you were liable not to get your rubbish collected and security might not open the gate for you, and a claim might be registered with the Amphur against the property which could cause problems if you wanted to sell it, but that's about it.

From my experience over the years with amateur committees, I would expect the whole thing to go to ratshit within about 18 months.

[chickenslegs]

I don't know the Thai law specifically but I would think that attempting to limits a persons use and enjoyment of their personal property by a private treaty would be problematic at best. It's is quite different than applying rules in a condo where the purchase is conditional and the property is communal. If push came to show the person could, in all likelyhood, just leave the association.

The law, specifically, is:

- The Land Development Act of 2000, Sections 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 and Section 70.

- Ministerial law on applications for the establishment, administration, merger and termination of housing development legal entities, 2002.

- Central Land Development Board regulations regarding the establishment of housing development legal entities or legal entities according to other laws and requesting approval to proceed with the maintenance of public utilities, 2002.

- Central Land Development Board regulations regarding the designation of expenses, criteria and methods for collecting public utility maintenance and management fees, and accounting arrangements, 2002.

It is quite similar to 'condo' laws/regulations.

If the Moo Baan has been set up under these regulations then every purchaser is an equal shareholder of all the land and facilities of the village - i.e. the roads, verges, entrance, pool, clubhouse (but not, of course, the plots which are owned privately).

Anyone purchasing a property within the "registered" village is also purchasing a share of the whole village. They are aware of this at the time of transferring the title of the land, and can not just withdraw from the deal.

Rules and regulations have to be approved by the majority of the residents and are normally applied only in respect of the "shared" parts of the village. Penalties normally comprise temporary withdrawal of services - not much more can be done.

The Land Office will not permit the sale/transfer of a "registered" plot (if they have been notified that maintenance fees are owed). Owners who do not pay their share of the village maintenance costs can be taken to court and may be ordered to pay their debt + a fine of 10% + the court costs.

[wintermute]

It's going to be entertaining when you confront the "authorities" and "people in the know" with a stack of your western legalese to a bunch of people who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. The laws are only here to benefit people with the most leverage ie. to legitimize bad behavior. It's not here to uphold any standards.

[TAWP]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Agreed.

Pathetic when some communities tries to state what colors one can re-paint the house in, the length of the grass in the yard and other such nonsense.

[scorecard]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Agreed.

Pathetic when some communities tries to state what colors one can re-paint the house in, the length of the grass in the yard and other such nonsense.

Here's my experience. One year ago we bought a nice house (not the most expensive, medium plus price range) in a quite new village in large upcountry city. Village sold out and now 99% complete.

When we talked to the sales manager he was quite professional, very careful to ensure no misunderstandings about any aspect of the sales / payment etc., process, very clear about what was and was not included in the price, options, etc etc., Plus he quickly made it clear that the sales contract had a long list of what is alowed and what is not allowed in the village (cannot start mni-mart in your house, noise from TV or stereo, loud cars, dogs, etc etc). In fact about 25 points. He was polite but very insistant that we read all the clauses then he insisted that he read and explain all the points. The list doesn't dictate exactly what colours you can paint your house.

My son shared that on one occasion he was in the sales office and a Thai couple said they wanted to buy but wanted a contract without all the said clauses. The sales manager refused and the sale collapsed.

Just recently every house received a copy of the clauses in their mail box plus a list of transgressions (but no house numbers), and a polite demand that those involved correct their transgressions with 14 days.

This generated quite some discussion with our neighbors etc (all Thai) and they were all very positive about the letter and supported the insistence that the transgressions be fixed. About 5 houses away we have one couple who had 5 small very yappy and very loud dogs. I could just hear the barking which was almost non stop. With the 'letter' in hand a delegation (about 7 or 8 close neighbors) approached the man with the dogs and made it clear they would not put with the noise. Four of the dogs have now gone. So far so good.

[meatboy]

scorecard,scorecard wake up dear or you will be late for work,your dreaming again.

[scorecard]

scorecard,scorecard wake up dear or you will be late for work,your dreaming again.

Dreaming about what, please tell me.

[cheshiremusicman]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Well, for your information I have been living in this very nice community for 5 years now and have served 4 years on the Committee with respect to looking after 'Capital Protects etc'. Yes, we have had our problems; but we have worked hard to resolve them and now have a stable Community (from some 14 countries) that pay their fees on time twice a year. My question was asked with regard to trying to make our Community stronger, so I do not need your contemptuous 'Go Home' remark.

I am perfectly happy living where I am, but just TRYING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR EVERYBODY. maybe this is a concept that you are incapable of understanding.

What precisely do you mean by 'this lovely idiot free country' - are there any of these actually still surviving in the world, or are you the 'idiot' living in this lovely country , maybe you should take your own advice and 'GO HOME' ?

Once again, thanks for taking the time to stretch your overloaded brain cells for a few minutes.

[cheshiremusicman]

I don't know the Thai law specifically but I would think that attempting to limits a persons use and enjoyment of their personal property by a private treaty would be problematic at best. It's is quite different than applying rules in a condo where the purchase is conditional and the property is communal. If push came to show the person could, in all likelyhood, just leave the association.

Thanks for your comment. We are not trying to 'Limit the persons use and enjoyment of their personal property by private treaty' we are just trying to make life more tolerable for everybody that wishes to have a reasonably quiet life. The fact is that we did have some people who requested to not be part of the 'Juristic Person/ Residents Association', as they claimed that they were not made aware by the developer of the future developments that extended the size of the 'Community'.

We dealt with this by holding a referendum of the residents, and in Association and guidance of the local 'Land Office' we allowed the people who objected to leave the Residents Association even though the 'Land Office ' said that we were perfectly entitled to make them join the Association. All the present owners pay their fees and it is implicit that any sale of property by any owner includes the statement that future owners are part of the 'Resident Association' and must pay the fees agreed. If an owner does not pay the due fees to the 'Association' then it is reported to the 'Land Office' and THEY have the right to block any sale of the property. So for those of you out there who scorn at these rules try that for size.

[cheshiremusicman]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Agreed.

Pathetic when some communities tries to state what colors one can re-paint the house in, the length of the grass in the yard and other such nonsense.

Actually, that IS in our 'Articles of Association' , but being sensible people we just hope that we don't get some 'idiot' who wants to re-paint their house bright pink. The length of the grass is up to you, but fortunately we have people who WISH to keep up certain standards and all of our gardens look neat and tidy, but individual - everyone to their own !

[cheshiremusicman]

Sounds like your trying to impose ridiculous western values on this lovely idiot free country we love... Go HOME

Agreed.

Pathetic when some communities tries to state what colors one can re-paint the house in, the length of the grass in the yard and other such nonsense.

Here's my experience. One year ago we bought a nice house (not the most expensive, medium plus price range) in a quite new village in large upcountry city. Village sold out and now 99% complete.

When we talked to the sales manager he was quite professional, very careful to ensure no misunderstandings about any aspect of the sales / payment etc., process, very clear about what was and was not included in the price, options, etc etc., Plus he quickly made it clear that the sales contract had a long list of what is alowed and what is not allowed in the village (cannot start mni-mart in your house, noise from TV or stereo, loud cars, dogs, etc etc). In fact about 25 points. He was polite but very insistant that we read all the clauses then he insisted that he read and explain all the points. The list doesn't dictate exactly what colours you can paint your house.

My son shared that on one occasion he was in the sales office and a Thai couple said they wanted to buy but wanted a contract without all the said clauses. The sales manager refused and the sale collapsed.

Just recently every house received a copy of the clauses in their mail box plus a list of transgressions (but no house numbers), and a polite demand that those involved correct their transgressions with 14 days.

This generated quite some discussion with our neighbors etc (all Thai) and they were all very positive about the letter and supported the insistence that the transgressions be fixed. About 5 houses away we have one couple who had 5 small very yappy and very loud dogs. I could just hear the barking which was almost non stop. With the 'letter' in hand a delegation (about 7 or 8 close neighbors) approached the man with the dogs and made it clear they would not put with the noise. Four of the dogs have now gone. So far so good.

Many thanks for your comments. It just goes to show what CAN be achieved if you try, but it needs COLLECTIVE action, not just one voice in the wilderness. This does not mean that you have to be a 'BAD' neighbour; quite the contrary, but a lot of people do not like to 'rock the boat', or to put it another way ' put their money where their mouth is', always letting someone else fire the bullets, so good on your neighbours. I wish you all a peaceful co-existence which is all that we are trying to achieve.

I'm sure that you are aware of the number of people who just 'Love to complain' but will NEVER, NEVER, put up their names for election to the Committee; always leaving it to the people like me and my friends who are daft enough to put up with it year on year. You should have seen the 'run for cover' last year when nearly all of the Committee suggested that we all resign and employ a 'Manager' to run the place - my goodness what a run for the chicken coup that created !

[cheshiremusicman]

scorecard,scorecard wake up dear or you will be late for work,your dreaming again.

Dreaming about what, please tell me.

He or she is probably dreaming of having the balls to do what you and your neighbours have done or are prepared to do to have a quiet life!

[cheshiremusicman]

I don't know the Thai law specifically but I would think that attempting to limits a persons use and enjoyment of their personal property by a private treaty would be problematic at best. It's is quite different than applying rules in a condo where the purchase is conditional and the property is communal. If push came to show the person could, in all likelyhood, just leave the association.

The law, specifically, is:

- The Land Development Act of 2000, Sections 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 and Section 70.

- Ministerial law on applications for the establishment, administration, merger and termination of housing development legal entities, 2002.

- Central Land Development Board regulations regarding the establishment of housing development legal entities or legal entities according to other laws and requesting approval to proceed with the maintenance of public utilities, 2002.

- Central Land Development Board regulations regarding the designation of expenses, criteria and methods for collecting public utility maintenance and management fees, and accounting arrangements, 2002.

It is quite similar to 'condo' laws/regulations.

If the Moo Baan has been set up under these regulations then every purchaser is an equal shareholder of all the land and facilities of the village - i.e. the roads, verges, entrance, pool, clubhouse (but not, of course, the plots which are owned privately).

Anyone purchasing a property within the "registered" village is also purchasing a share of the whole village. They are aware of this at the time of transferring the title of the land, and can not just withdraw from the deal.

Rules and regulations have to be approved by the majority of the residents and are normally applied only in respect of the "shared" parts of the village. Penalties normally comprise temporary withdrawal of services - not much more can be done.

The Land Office will not permit the sale/transfer of a "registered" plot (if they have been notified that maintenance fees are owed). Owners who do not pay their share of the village maintenance costs can be taken to court and may be ordered to pay their debt + a fine of 10% + the court costs.

Many thanks for your information, which would appear to confirm what we have been told by the local 'Land Office'.

Seems from some of the responders that they are quite happy to live with noise etc - everyone to their own eh !

[guzzi850m2]

scorecard,scorecard wake up dear or you will be late for work,your dreaming again.

Dreaming about what, please tell me.

I would like to know as well.

Okay if you choose a moo baan do it carefully, for for me and my family the advantages living in one are far greater than living outside one.

[Moonrakers]

Bloody curtain twitchers.

[meatboy]

op seems to be living in the real world imposing rules on thai's,you say 14diff.nationalities,how many homes on your mooban.why i cant believe that every body abides by the rules is,2005 we looked at quite a few moobans being built one in perticular was being built by one of the best co.in los.some very nice houses,with a park,swimming pool,community buildingand most important top quality security you couldnt get in unless you left your id.or if you were visiting the name and address of the property.2008 we went back to this mooban i wont go into details but it looked like a run down council estate.we now live on one which has only 40houses on but 80%thai owned,the honeymoon period is over and the running of the mooban is up to us,trying to get some interest is like telling someone to stop their dog from barking.this is also happened in another 8moobans which i know of in the area.so with 30years experiance of thai ways for me its either put up or shut up,i do live with peace and quiet and keep my mouth shut most times.

[cheshiremusicman]

The 'gated community' or moo ban where I live is in the process of transferring ownership from the developers to what the OP describes as a 'juristic body' of residents, and I asked the OP's very question at a meeting some months ago. The point is that an obligation to pay a management fee was included in the contract with the developers for the original purchase of the property, but I wanted to know how that obligation could be transferred to a third party, and judging by the vague answer I got, unless you actually sign something agreeing to pay the new body they can't do much to enforce it. They said that you were liable not to get your rubbish collected and security might not open the gate for you, and a claim might be registered with the Amphur against the property which could cause problems if you wanted to sell it, but that's about it.

From my experience over the years with amateur committees, I would expect the whole thing to go to ratshit within about 18 months.

Well, for your information things are running well after 5 years, with residents paying their fees twice yearly. The roads, communal area and verges are kept clean and tidy and rubbish is collected 3 times a week by the local authoritities. We have not had any break-ins for over 3 years and the last one was a minor theft. We are a collection of some 41 villas with no plots left unfinished and fortunately for us, the builder built everything that he said that he would, with as good a standard as one could expect to receive here in Thailand IMHO. Our local maintenance is performed by 'Room by Room', who I have found to be very co-operative to our needs, they also maintain about 80% of all the villa gardens and pools. We do request that visitors leave I.D. at our security gate but this is always a problem implementing, with guards changing regularly and trying to train them in procedure is difficult, but we are now changing the way that the gate is operated by residents. We introduced a guard monitoring system some 2 years ago that ensures that we can check that the guards are doing their regular patrols at night and this gives us some 14 check points within the residential area that we can monitor. Patrols are run from 1700 in the evening until 0600 and I download this information once a month to run a check.

So all in all you CAN get things running smoothly if you try it would seem. Things can always be improved if people want to see that happen. I wish you luck with your development.

If anybody needs any information regarding any of the above please feel free to contact me.

[meatboy]

just reading about an incident not far from us that happened in a luxury home.my friend tells me it was on another run down mooban,is it only in isaan which has these problems.