As cell division will continue undisturbed after conception until the baby is born then surely its true to say abortion is the killing of an unborn child.

Its a question of whether a foetus can feel anything...especially in the earlier stages of development. The likelihood is not, given the lack of any real formation below 12-14 weeks. Later abortion is definitely getting into trickier water.

From a Christian viewpoint then you would have to say its the taking of a life regardless of when the abortion occurs.

^^But I thought it wasn't about religion? I agree that some people are thick-witted, but unfortunately the way the world works we all become responsible at a certain age, whether we're ready or whether we like it or not. If the girl is a minor, then the law is pretty clear- her parents get to be involved. If not, the only way - the ONLY way - to be fair without using force or compulsion is to give the woman the decision. If she wants to let others decide for her, then that is HER decision, too. So IB, if some girl asks you for advice, then you're perfectly free to tell her what you think she should do, and if she wants to agree she can. If she wants her priest to help her decide, then she can. It's all about choice.

In any case, I thought that's what the Christian version of moral life was about? Being free to make choices? Free will and all that. Substituting a government force to eliminate the choice of free will by proxy when 'god itself' isn't doing that seems to be a bit hubristic.

As cell division will continue undisturbed after conception until the baby is born then surely its true to say abortion is the killing of an unborn child.

Its a question of whether a foetus can feel anything...especially in the earlier stages of development. The likelihood is not, given the lack of any real formation below 12-14 weeks. Later abortion is definitely getting into trickier water.

From a Christian viewpoint then you would have to say its the taking of a life regardless of when the abortion occurs.

It never occurred to me that it was about when a foetus could feel.

Yes, I suppose as a Christian I should say that any abortion is destroying life. But I also feel that Christians have to be alert to what is changing in the world round them, and that what was incontrovertible a couple of hundred years ago may be less cast-iron now. I suspect that this is one of the heresies (Pelagianism?), but in my opinion abortion is justified in some cases. I do NOT think it should be freely available for anyone who wants a free f***.

Again, I would like to stress that the thread is about personhood rather than life, not quite the same thing.

One point which I made, and which everybody has neatly skirted round, is that, if you are not a Christian, presumably you think that a human being is only an improved ape (much improved, to be sure), and that what applies to a human being should also apply to birds, beasts and fishes. This suggests that vegetarianism, nay veganism, is obligatory?

Nope. This is residual Christian thinking- the implied rule is 'do unto others', which is a Christian dictate. We don't *have* to abide by any standards of consistency that arise out of Christian ethical thinking- though often we do, and to better effect, in practice- I accept *personal* responsibility for my ethical behaviour; I don't put it off on 'god'. I accept that I am a primate- not an ape, actually, we diverged from apes and monkeys at a time of a 'common ancestor' species quite a long time ago- and we primates are omnivores, and I am happy to be responsible for the deaths of certain kinds of animals as a result of my diet.

During my younger years, when birth control was a lot less common, I knew a lot of young girls who got pregnant. I was their personal confidant and was asked many times about what they should do. I am pretty opinionated, but on the issue of abortion, I honestly, had absolutely no answer. I still don't.

It is probably the most personal decision any woman will make. For many it's a very serious decision. (I have only met one person who knew without a shadow of a doubt she wanted to terminate the pregnancy and had no second thoughts or remorse). Only the mother should decide.

I'm awed by your sense of responsibility, Tutsi....

I'm awed by your sense of responsibility, Tutsi....

He's hit the nail on the head regarding parenthood. Just love your kids and guide them. So simple isn't it?

nah...it's not responsibility so much as two lives being entwined...you work as a unit to keep on keeping on...and parenthood is something that you are presented with and it don't matter how much planning or anticipation comes before...you don't know it until it happens and then ye just haveta do the best that ye can...

and I separated from his mother when he was 5 y.o. and then later when he was 7-8 y.o., when on my return to work back to the arabian desert after a short visit he said: 'let me come wif you, dad...I want to come wif you...' and I said: 'Louie, where I work is not a nice place for little boys...'

can you imagine the impotent grief and the tears??!!...parenthood ain't just about weekend activities...