UK pensions

[steve187]

On 4/4/2018 at 6:24 PM, nong38 said:

I don't know if anyone noticed in the Express today there was report on funding of care for the elderly and one "expert" said we should consider making people over 60 pay NI! He looked rather well to do and had probably made sure it did not affect him mind! The comments afterwards were illuminating mainly centered around.........."if you had not let 3 million immigrants into the country and then allowed 1.5 million of them not to work we would not be in this position!" etc etc, if you find it its worth a read.

people over 60 do pay NI on earnings.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

5 minutes ago, steve187 said:

people over 60 do pay NI on earnings.

You stop paying at State Pension age.

[Golden Triangle]

I just checked my statement from the pensions people again today, bearing in mind that the letter is dated Sept 2016, I have 43 qualifying years, yes folks 43 chuffing years man & boy, and my expected pension is gonna be approximately 144.76 a week whatever happened to the magical 160 a week for everyone.

 

[roo860]

I just checked my statement from the pensions people again today, bearing in mind that the letter is dated Sept 2016, I have 43 qualifying years, yes folks 43 chuffing years man & boy, and my expected pension is gonna be approximately 144.76 a week whatever happened to the magical 160 a week for everyone.
 

Wasn't the plus £160 a week for people who were born before 1953?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nong38]

2 hours ago, steve187 said:

people over 60 do pay NI on earnings.

I stopped paying NI when I was 60 when I retired, a few years back. Times change and goalposts change, change is constant, I do not get the current rate of pension even though I had 45 years of contributions.

[steve187]

11 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

I just checked my statement from the pensions people again today, bearing in mind that the letter is dated Sept 2016, I have 43 qualifying years, yes folks 43 chuffing years man & boy, and my expected pension is gonna be approximately 144.76 a week whatever happened to the magical 160 a week for everyone.

 

a man born before 6th april 1951 and a women born before 6th April 1953 get a maximum of £122.30, which is topped up by serps, if you were born after this you get the new state pension of £159.55

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension

[evadgib]

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/april-tax-changes-2018-what-do-they-mean-for-you

[billd766]

4 hours ago, steve187 said:

a man born before 6th april 1951 and a women born before 6th April 1953 get a maximum of £122.30, which is topped up by serps, if you were born after this you get the new state pension of £159.55

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension

 

Unless of course you live in Thailand or the hundred or so other countries where expats live whose pension NEVER gets upgraded from the day that they first recieve it. Nearly 600, 000 at the last count.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/april-tax-changes-2018-what-do-they-mean-for-you

 

Thank you for that update.

 

What does in mean to me?

 

SFA other than paying £70 a year less in tax of MY money.

 

That is about £5.83 a month or 253 Thai baht in real money.

[sumrit]

20 hours ago, roo860 said:

 

Wasn't the plus £160 a week for people who were born before 1953?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

No, it's the opposite to what you're probably thinking. For men who reached 65 before 5th April 2016 (born before 5th April 1951) their pension is still calculated and paid under the old scheme meaning they currently get a guaranteed maximum of £122.30 plus any Serps payments they might have accrued during their working lives (with deductions being made for any years that the individual opted out of the state scheme and paid NI at a slightly lower rate).

 

It is people born after 5th April 1951 and reaching state retirement age after 5th April 2016 that (theoretically) are entitled to nearly £160 per week (currently 159.55). (again though, deductions are made from that figure for any opt out years').

[billd766]

17 minutes ago, sumrit said:

No, it's the opposite to what you're probably thinking. For men who reached 65 before 5th April 2016 (born before 5th April 1951) their pension is still calculated and paid under the old scheme meaning they currently get a guaranteed maximum of £122.30 plus any Serps payments they might have accrued during their working lives (with deductions being made for any years that the individual opted out of the state scheme and paid NI at a slightly lower rate).

 

It is people born after 5th April 1951 and reaching state retirement age after 5th April 2016 that (theoretically) are entitled to nearly £160 per week (currently 159.55). (again though, deductions are made from that figure for any opt out years').

 

I was born in 1944 and I sure as hell don't get a guaranteed maximum of £122.30 plus any Serps payments they might have accrued during their working lives. Mine was frozen in 2009 at £95 a week.

 

As I live in Thailand it is frozen at that rate until I die or go back to the UK (never).

[steve187]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Unless of course you live in Thailand or the hundred or so other countries where expats live whose pension NEVER gets upgraded from the day that they first recieve it. Nearly 600, 000 at the last count.

where you live does not affect the amount that you first get on retirement, or any serps additional pension you are entitled to,  it only affects any yearly increase.

[billd766]

11 minutes ago, steve187 said:

where you live does not affect the amount that you first get on retirement, or any serps additional pension you are entitled to,  it only affects any yearly increase.

 

Oddly enough for around 600,000 expats, that IS the problem.

 

If it wasn't the problem I would be getting £122.30 plus any Serps payments. I would also be getting a 3% increase on that this month. A 28% increase on my current pension. I don't care if it isn't backdated as long as I get the correct rate plus the increases as EVERY UK pensioner is entitled to (unless he is an expat of course).

[evadgib]

This may seem off topic but it includes links to the latest NHS guidelines for overseas visitors which includes us...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/review-into-nhs-overseas-visitor-charges-call-for-submissions 

 

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I was born in 1944 and I sure as hell don't get a guaranteed maximum of £122.30 plus any Serps payments they might have accrued during their working lives. Mine was frozen in 2009 at £95 a week.

 

As I live in Thailand it is frozen at that rate until I die or go back to the UK (never).

The £122.30 I quoted is the current rate for this year, either for someone retiring during this year or for a retiree who has been entitled to the annual increases. If you get £95.25 pw that's because that was the state pension rate when you retired in 2009. If your pension has been frozen because you've lived abroad since then that's what you would still get.

 

If you don't get/qualify for Serps (or the earlier Graduated pension scheme) that may be because you never paid anything into it. The most common reason for that is people who were self employed never paid employee PAYE NI contributions but paid a lower rate self employed stamp instead. Or, of course, you could have contracted out when the Serps and Graduated schemes came into being.

 

I most definitely DON'T agree with the frozen pension for expats system in any way, we all paid into the system under the same rules and we should all get the same pension, regardless of where we choose to live. None of us should be penalised. I'm just commenting on what people might be getting at the moment any the reasons why. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by sumrit

[denby45]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

This may seem off topic but it includes links to the latest NHS guidelines for overseas visitors which includes us...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/review-into-nhs-overseas-visitor-charges-call-for-submissions 

 

Seems it's quite reasonable, at least for me anyway: This from the Gov website:

 

Free Services

GP and nurse consultations in primary care, treatment provided by a GP and other primary care services are free of charge to all, whether registering as an NHS patient, or as a temporary patient, which is when the patient is in the area for more than 24 hours and less than 3 months.

For secondary care services, the UK’s healthcare system is a residence-based one, which means entitlement to free healthcare is based on living lawfully in the UK on a properly settled basis for the time being.

The measure of residence that the UK uses to determine entitlement to free NHS healthcare is known as ‘ordinary residence’. This requires non-EEA nationals subject to immigration control to also have the immigration status of indefinite leave to remain.

Individuals who are not ordinarily resident in the UK may be required to pay for their care when they are in England. However, some services and some individuals are exempt from payment.

The National Health Service (Charges to Overseas Visitors) (Amendment) Regulations 2017 and Guidance on overseas visitors hospital charging regulations 2017 outline the following services in the NHS which are currently free of charge irrespective of country of normal residence (as long as the overseas visitor hasn’t travelled to the UK for the purpose of seeking that treatment):

• accident & emergency services, including all A&E services provided at an NHS hospital, e.g. those provided at an A&E department, walk-in centre, minor injuries unit or urgent care centre. This does not include those emergency services provided after being admitted as an inpatient, or at a follow-up outpatient appointment, for which charges must be levied unless the overseas visitor is exempt from charge in their own right;
• services provided for the diagnosis and treatment of a number of communicable diseases, including HIV, TB and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) (see regulations for exact list)
• services provided for the diagnosis and treatment of sexually transmitted infections
• family planning services (does not include the termination of pregnancy or infertility treatment)
• services for the treatment of a physical or mental condition caused by: torture, female genital mutilation, domestic violence, or sexual violence
• palliative care services provided by a registered palliative care charity or a community interest company
• services that are provided as part of the NHS111 telephone advice line

The following groups are exempt from charge:

• refugees (those granted asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection under the immigration rules) and their dependents
• asylum seekers (those applying for asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection whose claims, including appeals, have not yet been determined) and their dependents
• individuals receiving support under section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (the 1999 Act) from the Home Office
• those whose application for asylum was rejected, but they are supported:
  • under section 4(2) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 by the Home Office
  • by a local authority under section 21 of the National Assistance Act 1948
  • under Part 1 (care and support) of the Care Act 2014
• children looked after by a local authority
• victims, and suspected victims, of modern slavery or human trafficking, as determined by the UK Human Trafficking Centre or the Home Office, plus their spouse or civil partner, and any children under 18 provided they are lawfully present in the UK
• those receiving compulsory treatment under a court order, or who are liable to be detained in an NHS hospital or deprived of their liberty (for example, under the Mental Health Act 1983 or the Mental Capacity Act 2005) are exempt from charge for all treatment provided, in accordance with the court order, or for the duration of their detention
• prisoners and immigration detainees

There may also be exceptional humanitarian reasons where the secretary of state can determine that exemption from charges for relevant services is justified. This exemption also applies to their child and/or companion who is authorised to travel with them, for whom the exemption is limited to treatment that cannot await their return home.

Individuals who are covered by reciprocal healthcare agreements, such as the European Health Insurance Card or who have paid the immigration health surcharge may also be exempt from payment. For further exemptions and information, see NHS Choices and Guidance on overseas visitors hospital charging regulations 2017.

[nong38]

9 hours ago, denby45 said:

Seems it's quite reasonable, at least for me anyway: This from the Gov website:

 

Free Services

GP and nurse consultations in primary care, treatment provided by a GP and other primary care services are free of charge to all, whether registering as an NHS patient, or as a temporary patient, which is when the patient is in the area for more than 24 hours and less than 3 months.

For secondary care services, the UK’s healthcare system is a residence-based one, which means entitlement to free healthcare is based on living lawfully in the UK on a properly settled basis for the time being.

The measure of residence that the UK uses to determine entitlement to free NHS healthcare is known as ‘ordinary residence’. This requires non-EEA nationals subject to immigration control to also have the immigration status of indefinite leave to remain.

Individuals who are not ordinarily resident in the UK may be required to pay for their care when they are in England. However, some services and some individuals are exempt from payment.

The National Health Service (Charges to Overseas Visitors) (Amendment) Regulations 2017 and Guidance on overseas visitors hospital charging regulations 2017 outline the following services in the NHS which are currently free of charge irrespective of country of normal residence (as long as the overseas visitor hasn’t travelled to the UK for the purpose of seeking that treatment):

• accident & emergency services, including all A&E services provided at an NHS hospital, e.g. those provided at an A&E department, walk-in centre, minor injuries unit or urgent care centre. This does not include those emergency services provided after being admitted as an inpatient, or at a follow-up outpatient appointment, for which charges must be levied unless the overseas visitor is exempt from charge in their own right;
• services provided for the diagnosis and treatment of a number of communicable diseases, including HIV, TB and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) (see regulations for exact list)
• services provided for the diagnosis and treatment of sexually transmitted infections
• family planning services (does not include the termination of pregnancy or infertility treatment)
• services for the treatment of a physical or mental condition caused by: torture, female genital mutilation, domestic violence, or sexual violence
• palliative care services provided by a registered palliative care charity or a community interest company
• services that are provided as part of the NHS111 telephone advice line

The following groups are exempt from charge:

• refugees (those granted asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection under the immigration rules) and their dependents
• asylum seekers (those applying for asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection whose claims, including appeals, have not yet been determined) and their dependents
• individuals receiving support under section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (the 1999 Act) from the Home Office
• those whose application for asylum was rejected, but they are supported:
  • under section 4(2) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 by the Home Office
  • by a local authority under section 21 of the National Assistance Act 1948
  • under Part 1 (care and support) of the Care Act 2014
• children looked after by a local authority
• victims, and suspected victims, of modern slavery or human trafficking, as determined by the UK Human Trafficking Centre or the Home Office, plus their spouse or civil partner, and any children under 18 provided they are lawfully present in the UK
• those receiving compulsory treatment under a court order, or who are liable to be detained in an NHS hospital or deprived of their liberty (for example, under the Mental Health Act 1983 or the Mental Capacity Act 2005) are exempt from charge for all treatment provided, in accordance with the court order, or for the duration of their detention
• prisoners and immigration detainees

There may also be exceptional humanitarian reasons where the secretary of state can determine that exemption from charges for relevant services is justified. This exemption also applies to their child and/or companion who is authorised to travel with them, for whom the exemption is limited to treatment that cannot await their return home.

Individuals who are covered by reciprocal healthcare agreements, such as the European Health Insurance Card or who have paid the immigration health surcharge may also be exempt from payment. For further exemptions and information, see NHS Choices and Guidance on overseas visitors hospital charging regulations 2017.

I am  a refugee/asylum seeker, show me the doctor my boot polish is coming off!

[Eff1n2ret]

9 hours ago, denby45 said:

Seems it's quite reasonable, at least for me anyway

It's not reasonable as far as I'm concerned. What it means is that if I fall ill or have an accident whilst visiting my family in the UK and have to be admitted to hospital I'll be stuck with a bill (which is assessed at cost + 50%, something not mentioned in the section you quote). Prior to April 2015 the rules were that a UK State Pensioner who had lived in the UK for at least 10 years before retirement was entitled to free emergency (not elective) hospital treatment, i.e. you couldn't go back there for a hip replacement or similar, but in a crisis you were taken care of like any other British citizen. That was fair enough. I never saw any published evidence that this was being abused, or any justification for the withdrawal of this entitlement. It's not just that I paid into the system all my working life, I'm still paying UK income tax, and now I get absolutely nothing for it.

And please don't mention travel insurance. There is no worthwhile policy available in Thailand for a 73-year-old with pre-existing conditions (albeit fairly well under control).

It makes me more angry than the "frozen pension" thing which has been around for decades, and if you didn't know about it when you retired, tough luck. Anybody who retired abroad before April 2015 has had the goalposts moved.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Eff1n2ret

[OJAS]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:23 PM, denby45 said:

The following groups are exempt from charge:

• refugees (those granted asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection under the immigration rules) and their dependents
• asylum seekers (those applying for asylum, humanitarian protection or temporary protection whose claims, including appeals, have not yet been determined) and their dependents
• individuals receiving support under section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (the 1999 Act) from the Home Office
• those whose application for asylum was rejected, but they are supported:
  • under section 4(2) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 by the Home Office
  • by a local authority under section 21 of the National Assistance Act 1948
  • under Part 1 (care and support) of the Care Act 2014
• children looked after by a local authority
• victims, and suspected victims, of modern slavery or human trafficking, as determined by the UK Human Trafficking Centre or the Home Office, plus their spouse or civil partner, and any children under 18 provided they are lawfully present in the UK
• those receiving compulsory treatment under a court order, or who are liable to be detained in an NHS hospital or deprived of their liberty (for example, under the Mental Health Act 1983 or the Mental Capacity Act 2005) are exempt from charge for all treatment provided, in accordance with the court order, or for the duration of their detention
• prisoners and immigration detainees

In other words, every Tom, Dick and Harry from wherever they may hail on this great planet of ours, with the notable exception of British nationals who chose to relocate to Thailand upon their retirement after a lifetime of paying UK NI contributions and income tax (the latter of which many of them, like myself, are still paying).

[OJAS]

On 4/7/2018 at 9:19 AM, Eff1n2ret said:

I never saw any published evidence that this was being abused, or any justification for the withdrawal of this entitlement.

It seems to me that HMG in general have, for the past few years at least, been regarding the publication (and probably even preparation) of evidence in support of their actions as too much of an inconvenience for them. For example, I have also never seen any published evidence that the pre-2014 passport renewal procedures were being abused to such an extent as to justify the requirement for 2 physical trips to Bangkok from whichever far-flung corner of Thailand we live in at passport renewal time ever since.

Edited April 8, 2018 by OJAS

[altcar bob]

All of above true,to an extent.  Depends how you play a system,but needs researching,but all do-able.   urgent NHS treatment heart etc?   take a trip to Aussie  fall ill after a couple of days,reciprocal NHS treatment,Gib is amazing well accommodating too,if not wanting to confront NHS direct, I too pay enough tax to make me froth   let them try to extract more which I have paid for and still paying   As Confucius  1731-1784 stated 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.'

[Oxx]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

For example, I have also never seen any published evidence that the pre-2014 passport renewal procedures were being abused to such an extent as to justify the requirement for 2 physical trips to Bangkok from whichever far-flung corner of Thailand we live in at passport renewal time ever since.

 

Nothing to do with abuse in Thailand.  They seem to believe that there's a requirement here for one to have one's passport with one at all times, hence the ludicrous procedure.  In other countries such as Malaysia you can apply on-line and then send your old passport to the UK to be cancelled.

[Eff1n2ret]

3 hours ago, altcar bob said:

All of above true,to an extent.  Depends how you play a system,but needs researching,but all do-able.   urgent NHS treatment heart etc?   take a trip to Aussie  fall ill after a couple of days,reciprocal NHS treatment,Gib is amazing well accommodating too,if not wanting to confront NHS direct, I too pay enough tax to make me froth   let them try to extract more which I have paid for and still paying   As Confucius  1731-1784 stated 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.'

None of that answers the point that if you visit the UK, not for medical treatment but simply to see your family, and have the bad luck to be hospitalised there, you will be lucky to avoid being landed with a crippling bill. Bravado about facing them down is unlikely to cut it if they are minded to make a few simple checks, and it appears that they are increasingly encouraged to do so. Anyone whose pension is paid from the UK  or with assets there is the easiest target, and government departments will always, always pick the easiest targets to justify their existence.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

 

Nothing to do with abuse in Thailand.  They seem to believe that there's a requirement here for one to have one's passport with one at all times, hence the ludicrous procedure.  In other countries such as Malaysia you can apply on-line and then send your old passport to the UK to be cancelled.

Noted. I may challenge that when my ppt expires as it is frankly ridiculous. A fellow resident applied online and sent his ppt to a sibling in UK to be forwarded to HMPO which worked for him but they frankly shouldn't place us in a position where this becomes necessary.

[altcar bob]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

None of that answers the point that if you visit the UK, not for medical treatment but simply to see your family, and have the bad luck to be hospitalised there, you will be lucky to avoid being landed with a crippling bill. Bravado about facing them down is unlikely to cut it if they are minded to make a few simple checks, and it appears that they are increasingly encouraged to do so. Anyone whose pension is paid from the UK  or with assets there is the easiest target, and government departments will always, always pick the easiest targets to justify their existence.

Become a UK resident the moment the plane touches down

[altcar bob]

Even more scare tactics,just like the OAP,until it happens,it happens  and depending on which version of (is it proposed)? charging. Citizens Advice centres were pumping out anyone over pensionable age is immune from charging,which seems to be a more sensible way,anyway I'm not bothered ,just like the scare stories of OAP,.. bring it on,,if you took notice of all the crap poured forth,you would top yourself

[nontabury]

13 hours ago, OJAS said:

In other words, every Tom, Dick and Harry from wherever they may hail on this great planet of ours, with the notable exception of British nationals who chose to relocate to Thailand upon their retirement after a lifetime of paying UK NI contributions and income tax (the latter of which many of them, like myself, are still paying).

This is just one of many exemptions afforded to none British tax payers.

Two that immediately come to mind =Fees to bring you wife/non British children into the U.K.     Housing benefits.

 

.  

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

34 minutes ago, nontabury said:

This is just one of many exemptions afforded to none British tax payers.

Two that immediately come to mind =Fees to bring you wife/non British children into the U.K.     Housing benefits.

 

.  

In clubs and societies worldwide you acquire rights by paying your subscription and becoming a member. In the UK, As a non citizen, you acquire rights and receive benefits  paid for by the taxation of citizens, who will be threatened with prosecution for racism if they protest about it.

[denby45]

On 4/7/2018 at 9:19 AM, Eff1n2ret said:

It's not reasonable as far as I'm concerned. What it means is that if I fall ill or have an accident whilst visiting my family in the UK and have to be admitted to hospital I'll be stuck with a bill (which is assessed at cost + 50%, something not mentioned in the section you quote). Prior to April 2015 the rules were that a UK State Pensioner who had lived in the UK for at least 10 years before retirement was entitled to free emergency (not elective) hospital treatment, i.e. you couldn't go back there for a hip replacement or similar, but in a crisis you were taken care of like any other British citizen. That was fair enough. I never saw any published evidence that this was being abused, or any justification for the withdrawal of this entitlement. It's not just that I paid into the system all my working life, I'm still paying UK income tax, and now I get absolutely nothing for it.

And please don't mention travel insurance. There is no worthwhile policy available in Thailand for a 73-year-old with pre-existing conditions (albeit fairly well under control).

It makes me more angry than the "frozen pension" thing which has been around for decades, and if you didn't know about it when you retired, tough luck. Anybody who retired abroad before April 2015 has had the goalposts moved.

Sorry Eff but I must be misinterpreting the rules which seem to be clearly stated there. They seemed clear to me however so I probably need to brush up on my English skills. The frozen pension does in fact make my blood boil and is indeed an injustice and for me is much more important than (full) access to the NHS. However isn't one of the points made by the ICBP that overseas pensioners are not making use of the NHS thus saving the government money? 

 

Den

[nong38]

Perhaps we should have our pensions increased by cost + 50% for not using the NHS, its only fair if we go back and use it and they charge us cost +50%.