UK pensions

[agudbuk]

Unfortunately, it has been sorted out already and the government won.  I believe the ruling said that the government was within its rights to deny yearly increases because the expats were no longer involved in the UK economy- spending money and paying taxes. Sadly, the campaigners were so cock-sure of their case that I think they also wanted back payments.  They chose the wrong strategy in my view.
 
So that's that!
 

The battle continues.

[nontabury]

On 10/04/2018 at 8:19 AM, Oxx said:

 

Well, apart from road and bridges, policemen and judges, free education for our children, cheap hospitals, an army to protect us, a postal service, public TV and public transportation, plus all the rest of it.  SFA, as you say.

Policemen, I saw no policemen, just the Mafia in another name. The same can be said of many of the judges, throughly corrupt. Free education, to what standard?

Cheap hospitals staffed by many Doctors with the ability of a nurse. An Army to protect you from what? or is it in place to control the populace. A censored T.V / media. 

 Please don’t get me wrong, I spent 20 yrs living in Thailand, and generally I think it’s a great place, and I would prefer to live there,rather than in the U.K. However  I am aware of many of its shortcomings.

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, agudbuk said:

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Unfortunately, it has been sorted out already and the government won.  I believe the ruling said that the government was within its rights to deny yearly increases because the expats were no longer involved in the UK economy- spending money and paying taxes. Sadly, the campaigners were so cock-sure of their case that I think they also wanted back payments.  They chose the wrong strategy in my view.
 
So that's that!
 

The battle continues.

Well, I hope so but I don't hold out much hope.  Let's just hope that they don't stop it altogether as rumoured on another thread, although I think it is just that!

Edited April 12, 2018 by mommysboy

[billzant]

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Unfortunately, it has been sorted out already and the government won.  I believe the ruling said that the government was within its rights to deny yearly increases because the expats were no longer involved in the UK economy- spending money and paying taxes. Sadly, the campaigners were so cock-sure of their case that I think they also wanted back payments.  They chose the wrong strategy in my view.

 

So that's that!

 

Can you give me details on what you meant by "it has been sorted out already and the government won"? What do you mean by the ruling? What strategy do you mean? My apologies but I am trying to catch up on what is happening.

From looking at pensionjustice.org I could not find a description of what they are campaigning on.

For me there is no consistency in the UK economy argument in that pensions  are not frozen for some expats eg Philippines.

[mommysboy]

21 minutes ago, billzant said:

Can you give me details on what you meant by "it has been sorted out already and the government won"? What do you mean by the ruling? What strategy do you mean? My apologies but I am trying to catch up on what is happening.

From looking at pensionjustice.org I could not find a description of what they are campaigning on.

For me there is no consistency in the UK economy argument in that pensions  are not frozen for some expats eg Philippines.

I believe there was an EU court of Justice ruling in 2010, and a Parliamentary ruling just recently.

 

They did concede current rules were illogical.  I believe EU citizens receive the increase as it is an EU rule, and other countries have worked out some reciprocal arrangment.  Sadly, Thailand isn't one of them.

 

Wrong strategy:  Had the lobbyists merely demanded current rates then I think it may have worked, but there was a militant claim for back dating: that in my view was a mistake. 

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I believe there was an EU court of Justice ruling in 2010, and a Parliamentary ruling just recently.

 

They did concede current rules were illogical.  I believe EU citizens receive the increase as it is an EU rule, and other countries have worked out some reciprocal arrangment.  Sadly, Thailand isn't one of them.

 

Wrong strategy:  Had the lobbyists merely demanded current rates then I think it may have worked, but there was a militant claim for back dating: that in my view was a mistake. 

Am I correct in thinking that after Brexit, those British pensioners living in the E.U.

will still be able to receive the yearly increase.

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, billzant said:

Can you give me details on what you meant by "it has been sorted out already and the government won"? What do you mean by the ruling? What strategy do you mean? My apologies but I am trying to catch up on what is happening.

From looking at pensionjustice.org I could not find a description of what they are campaigning on.

For me there is no consistency in the UK economy argument in that pensions  are not frozen for some expats eg Philippines.

You mention Consistency. How about two twin brothers,who apon retirement decide to go and live in North America. One decides to live in the USA, just 100 yds from the Canadian border,while his twin brother decides to live in Canada, just 100yds from the USA border. So there they are, living only 200yds apart,yet do they receive the same pension after the first year. Do they hell.

The brother living in the USA will receive his yearly increase and be able to shout the 200yds, and tell his brother that he, unlike his brother has again received his annual increase.

 

[billzant]

Thanks for your help.

 

In 2010 the EU case was a private case supported by ICBP that failed. According to this article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/7545498/Australian-government-backs-British-pensioners-rights.html the decision seemed not to have any sound basis.

 

There is an all party campaigning group in parliament http://frozenbritishpensions.org/. They are proposing this solution http://frozenbritishpensions.org/a-solution/, it appears that what you (mommysboy) say about back payments was a stumbling block. This solution does not ask for such.

 

I think the recent parliamentary ruling you refer to concerns this http://frozenbritishpensions.org/pensions-2018/. I am not sure what it means.

 

The group met on 1st November last year but the minutes show minimal activity. ICBP attended.
 

[Swimman]

3 minutes ago, billzant said:

here is an all party campaigning group in parliament

This group was, at one time, headed by Baroness Altmann. Extracting a reply from her was as problematic as finding a hen with teeth!

[billzant]

For information I have attached a document from the appg group listing the decisions concerning frozen pensions. It basically says it's always been that way, and it would cost money to be fair.

 

They talk about reciprocal agreements in general, but it just seems that US is not f rozen

SN01457.pdf

[transam]

8 minutes ago, billzant said:

For information I have attached a document from the appg group listing the decisions concerning frozen pensions. It basically says it's always been that way, and it would cost money to be fair.

 

They talk about reciprocal agreements in general, but it just seems that US is not f rozen

SN01457.pdf

There is a list of many countries we can go to with no ploblem..

 

My late USA uncle  worked for years for a USA company in the UK, he had a UK NI number. When he retired back to the USA he got a UK pension and the upgrades...

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

You mention Consistency. How about two twin brothers,who apon retirement decide to go and live in North America. One decides to live in the USA, just 100 yds from the Canadian border,while his twin brother decides to live in Canada, just 100yds from the USA border. So there they are, living only 200yds apart,yet do they receive the same pension after the first year. Do they hell.

The brother living in the USA will receive his yearly increase and be able to shout the 200yds, and tell his brother that he, unlike his brother has again received his annual increase.

 

I said illogical: in my opinion it's crazy.  The whole thing about the pension overhaul was simplicity.  So to my thinking it should be everyone gets the yearly increment or nobody.  But crucially, the government does not seem to agree and what they are doing is not unlawful.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, billzant said:

Thanks for your help.

 

In 2010 the EU case was a private case supported by ICBP that failed. According to this article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/7545498/Australian-government-backs-British-pensioners-rights.html the decision seemed not to have any sound basis.

 

There is an all party campaigning group in parliament http://frozenbritishpensions.org/. They are proposing this solution http://frozenbritishpensions.org/a-solution/, it appears that what you (mommysboy) say about back payments was a stumbling block. This solution does not ask for such.

 

I think the recent parliamentary ruling you refer to concerns this http://frozenbritishpensions.org/pensions-2018/. I am not sure what it means.

 

The group met on 1st November last year but the minutes show minimal activity. ICBP attended.
 

Such a good posting.  I found this rather illuminating:

 

• At an estimated upfront cost of just £37 million – minuscule in government spending terms – Annulling the Up-rating Regulations option offers an affordable and expeditious policy alternative that could be implemented in the current financial climate.

 

To my mind then: a failure to address this problem can only be described as bloody-minded.

[evadgib]

 

 

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP) shared Nigel Nelson's post.

9 April at 04:43 · 

 

 

Nigel Nelson

9 April at 04:42 · 

 

 

Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) 2018 - just sent the following message to the UK Prime Minister:

”I think that there is a compelling case for unfreezing the UK State Pension for the 540,000 UK pensioners living abroad. In light of the upcoming CHOGM, 95% of these pensioners i.e. 518,000 live in 48 out of the 53 Commonwealth countries. To uprate these pensions would cost £600 million a year but you have to link the additional increase in the UK State Pension to the excess sitting in the National Insurance Fund (NIF) which demonstrates that the UK government can afford to raise our pensions. As at the end of March 2017 the NIF has a surplus of £21.9 Billion. By law the NIF has to have a running balance of 1/6th of the £99.5 Billion Annual Payments which is equal to £16.6 Billion, therefore the excess is £5.3Billion. The NIF is run on a “Pay as you go” system - today’s workers pay into a fund that pensioners are paid from. On the basis that when we were working we were also paying into the same fund that was used to pay the pensioners that were around then, the excess in the NIF is OUR money - we are only asking to be paid the same annual increase as all of the pensioners in the UK. Basically, the message is: Give us back our own money.” - Why don’t you also send a message to No 10, and flood their inbox by tomorrow morning? 
#chogm2018 #immoral #disdiscriminatory #no10 Theresa May

Here is the web address:

 

EMAIL.NUMBER10.GOV.UK

 

Contact the Prime Minister - Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Please use the form below to email the Prime Minister's Office. All emails are read and we will do our best to ensure you receive a response. Where appropriate, your email will be forwarded to the…

Edited April 13, 2018 by evadgib

[evadgib]

 

 

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP) shared Nigel Nelson's post.

10 April at 22:38 · 

 

 

Nigel Nelson

10 April at 22:19 · 

 

Finally, we have been able to get past the DWP intervention. We have posts on Mrs May’s Twitter Account, and now her Facebook Page. Please click on the link below which will take you directly to her official FB Page - if you scroll down to a post that Nigel Nelson has made. Please “like” it - let’s show our solidarity - and, if you feel like it, please also comment on it, but be respectful. If you start your comment with the “@“ symbol followed by theresa_may then the first 255 characters of your message will also be sent to her Twitter Account. If you end your message with a series of # e.g. #immoral #discriminatory #chogm #chogm2018 #Commonwealth Heads of Government #RoyalFamily (or just copy these) then we can see if we can get these trending. Please send this to everyone in your list of friends and family and ask them to do the same. Paste this link into your browser but without the “ at either end of the link
“https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheresaMayOfficial/posts/?ref=page_internal”

[mommysboy]

Of course, some people could just change their political allegiances.

[evadgib]

Although not directly related to our plight I wondered whether Mr Daley might be persuaded to add his profile to the Consortium?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/commonwealth-games/43750056

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by evadgib

[Golden Triangle]

This is pension related just not the state pension, today I received notification from the firm that administers my UK Military pension that I had received an annual upgrade of 3%, thank you very much, it's not a great deal of money but as they say at Tesco's " Every little helps "  

 

I only wish the government would do the same for the state pension when I start to receive later this year, see how I got back on topic there ? 

[evadgib]

28 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

This is pension related just not the state pension, today I received notification from the firm that administers my UK Military pension that I had received an annual upgrade of 3%, thank you very much, it's not a great deal of money but as they say at Tesco's " Every little helps "  

 

I only wish the government would do the same for the state pension when I start to receive later this year, see how I got back on topic there ? 

From #3688 dated 17 Jan:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/war-disablement-pension-rates-2018

This 3% increase will be mirrored by all Govt employment pensions.

Edited April 13, 2018 by evadgib

[agudbuk]

British expat pensions are frozen in more than 40 countries. You could easily mistake a list of them for one of expat hotspots. It includes Australia, Brazil, Japan, Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong, plus most of the Caribbean and all of Africa. In fact there are only 13 countries outside the EU where UK pensions are uprated.
The policy (in many cases combined with loss of free public healthcare) is a major obstacle to retirees moving overseas. Bear in mind a basic state pension is worth only GBP 102.15 a week.
The British government usually trots out two main arguments in defense of pension freezes:

• Most countries outside the EU refuse to sign reciprocal treaties with the UK.
  

• It’s not fiscally prudent to uprate pensions.
  

5 pages of everyone stating the obvious and arguing or criticising each other because of some are wealthy some are not. This freezing of the state pension is not a new thing it goes back years.
So instead of writing the same thing over and over on TV write to your MP, get your friends to write and badger them, they are the only people who can change it!!
Remember the majority of us here have not emigrated we are and remain "Non Immigrants" which requires a Visa or an extension to. Expats who emigrate are not in this category. Something the UK Government chooses to overlook.

In 6 years nothing changes.

[alzack]

Hi just a follow to this pension thread My pension 2008 2015 frozen as the topic states. We returned to live in UK July 2016 after a lot of form filling waiting it went  up to the new level, nearly+ £300 PM I got my sons tax credits and tax.  pension income slowly going down the pan in Thailand  with the pound devaluation/baht strength

all the best

Edited April 13, 2018 by alzack

[agudbuk]

Hi just a follow to this pension thread My pension 2008 2015 frozen as the topic states. We returned to live in UK July 2016 after a lot of form filling waiting it went  up to the new level, nearly+ £300 PM I got my sons tax credits and tax.  pension income slowly going down the pan in Thailand  with the pound devaluation/baht strength
all the best

If you ever leave the country again the pension reverts to the old level.

[alzack]

9 minutes ago, agudbuk said:

1 hour ago, alzack said:

Hi just a follow to this pension thread My pension 2008 2015 frozen as the topic states. We returned to live in UK July 2016 after a lot of form filling waiting it went  up to the new level, nearly+ £300 PM I got my sons tax credits and tax.  pension income slowly going down the pan in Thailand  with the pound devaluation/baht strength
all the best

If you ever leave the country again the pension reverts to the old level.

Well not thinking of coming back really, maybe when the pound gets back to 75 baht all the best

[nontabury]

57 minutes ago, agudbuk said:

2 hours ago, alzack said:

Hi just a follow to this pension thread My pension 2008 2015 frozen as the topic states. We returned to live in UK July 2016 after a lot of form filling waiting it went  up to the new level, nearly+ £300 PM I got my sons tax credits and tax.  pension income slowly going down the pan in Thailand  with the pound devaluation/baht strength
all the best

If you ever leave the country again the pension reverts to the old level.

Wrong, if you remain in the UK for 2yrs, and then return to Thailand, your state pension will remain at the rate you depart on. If however, you return to Thailand just one day short of two years,then yes it will revert to the old level.

[mommysboy]

I found this very informative- it explains how the state pension scheme, and it just shows that a lot of us are misinformed particularly regarding funding.  It appears also there is a fund and some investment. (assuming info. is correct of course):

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2787888/how-state-pension-funded-cash-runs.html

[nong38]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I found this very informative- it explains how the state pension scheme, and it just shows that a lot of us are misinformed particularly regarding funding.  It appears also there is a fund and some investment. (assuming info. is correct of course):

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2787888/how-state-pension-funded-cash-runs.html

The above is dated 2014 and forecast the fund exhausted by 2016. We will never know we are still getting our pensions from somewhere!

It has always been that current generations pay for the ones ahead, the problem is that there are less payers than required to fund the scheme and it will get worse, technology/robots don't pay tax. At some point some people are going to find out that although they paid for the past generations no one is going to be paying for theirs. There will come a time soon when people will have to fund their own retirement, like the private sector is increasingly having to do, the same will have to apply to the public sector pensions generosity as well its unsustainable but the people in charge don't want it to stop on their watch. Someone is going to have to be tough and explain the facts to them, I don't to keep paying for them especially when they ignore frozen pensions.

[billzant]

13 hours ago, evadgib said:

 

 

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP) shared Nigel Nelson's post.

10 April at 22:38 · 

 

 

Nigel Nelson

10 April at 22:19 · 

 

Finally, we have been able to get past the DWP intervention. We have posts on Mrs May’s Twitter Account, and now her Facebook Page. Please click on the link below which will take you directly to her official FB Page - if you scroll down to a post that Nigel Nelson has made. Please “like” it - let’s show our solidarity - and, if you feel like it, please also comment on it, but be respectful. If you start your comment with the “@“ symbol followed by theresa_may then the first 255 characters of your message will also be sent to her Twitter Account. If you end your message with a series of # e.g. #immoral #discriminatory #chogm #chogm2018 #Commonwealth Heads of Government #RoyalFamily (or just copy these) then we can see if we can get these trending. Please send this to everyone in your list of friends and family and ask them to do the same. Paste this link into your browser but without the “ at either end of the link
“https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheresaMayOfficial/posts/?ref=page_internal”

The ICBP is constituted primarily with Commonwealth countries. Commonwealth countries are interested in ending frozen pensions because  I believe the governments support the expats if their pensions are low. The problem in addition is that Commonwealth countries have higher inflation than Thailand. so the expats are suffering more there.

The problem lies with the inertia of the British government (both parties in government). The APPG parliamentary group offers a solution for all expats http://frozenbritishpensions.org/a-solution/.

 

In my recent reading it seems that the answer for not changing is that it has always been this way so why change it. Basically the EU ruling said that as well saying it was up to government to change it.

There was a suggestion that they might make changes if it were cost-effective, if people said the reason they were not retiring abroad was frozen pensions. I think, although I am not sure why, it would cost the government less for pensioners to live outside the UK.

 

 

[billzant]

I dislike "the coffers are empty" argument concerning pensions. To my mind if the pensions coffers are empty it is because of mismanagement - or more likely using pensions money  for other reasons such as defence. People pay NI contributions all their life with an implied promise that pensions would be paid.

 

At the same time the managers of the pensions fund knew what they had to pay out. If they were relying on a dwindling workforce to make those payouts that is bad management. A dwindling workforce could be predicted, and therefore a different investment strategy should have been developed years ago to ensure that the money was there to fulfil their commitment to pensions. 

 

In my view dwindling workforce is an excuse to avoid their commitment to make payments to pensioners - not simply frozen pensions.
 

[shunter]

Meanwhile  as the country is  in dire financial straits and just cannot afford to pay a small section of its ex pensioners at the  current prevailing rates  of course this something we commiserate with the U K for  ..

 

There are it seems funds aplenty to pay for bang bang toys  in the  Middle East  theatre.

Edited April 14, 2018 by shunter

[topt]

For anybody considering topping up NICs and has not been aware of the potential "pitfalls"you may want to have a read of the article here -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/pensions/article-5600541/Officials-admit-say-state-pension-work.html

 

It is another follow up on the issue of paying top up NICs which give the payer no extra pension benefits.

It also now highlights that the govt. seems to be washing it's hands about providing accurate advice which I find pretty shocking.......