Misuse Of Official Position

[mackes]

"She knew pretty well she was wrong and in the end she said that she was a government officer

and in that status she could decide whatever she wanted and she would only give me a 1 year extension."

The above is a quote from another thread about renewing of drivers license. I have met the attitude before and

I thought it could be interesting to discuss the tendency from Thai officials to make their own laws and rules,

sometimes by ignorance but often by intentional misinterpretation.

I myself have a number of times heard statements from officials at the immigration that is apparently not in

coherence with the Thai law but they have the view that they are in position to decide against the rules.

If appeal to higher authority you can look forward to be bullied by the staff on your next visit.

Why is this so common in Thailand?

[Semper]

Welcome to Thailand.

[Payboy]

Misuse of official position

If someone paid good money for it, they are entitled to use it as they see fit.

[mackes]

Misuse of official position

If someone paid good money for it, they are entitled to use it as they see fit.

So you state it's all about money? Corruption taken to a new level!

I have a hard time to believe that is the case in general, or am I being naive?

[PattayaParent]

It's a face thing.

They cannot admit that they are wrong or don't know the rules.

[mackes]

It's a face thing.

They cannot admit that they are wrong or don't know the rules.

Sounds credible, so a way to avoid this is to start with "I read in your regulations that...."?

[Mobi]

I was once given an incorrect ruling by a land officer in Pattaya concerning a usufruct. My lawyer who had pretty good contacts, appealed to a head honcho in Bangkok at the land department who agreed that the Pattaya officer had ruled incorrectly.

He was then asked to call the errant officer and have the error corrected, but he refused, on the grounds that his junior officer would lose face.

Incorrect interpretations and rulings on Thai Laws and regulations by civil servants are a frequent occurrence, but even when proved to be in the wrong, they usually refuse to back down due to loss of face.

Its just the way things are and you have to accept it, get used to it and find a way to work round it.

[thequietman]

Picture the scene.

Two Thai Bomb Disposal experts. One quite new and up to date with current types of detonators.

Another, an old hand, been around a while. Kind of guy that puts motorbike tyres around the bomb or pokes it with a stick to see if its real.

Older officer : "I am now going to cut the red wire."

Younger officer : "But sir, it states clearly in the manual that in an event such as this, we need to cut the blue wire."

Older officer : Don't tell me how to do my job. How dare you. Do you know who I am ?"

Younger officer : Sir, If you cut the red wire, we will both die here today. Is face really worth our lives?"

Older officer : BOOM !

and there you have it in a nut shell.

[chrisinth]

It's a face thing.

They cannot admit that they are wrong or don't know the rules.

The way I read it too. If you don't leave them an escape option, or are unable to get the message across that they think they came up with it, then you are going to get the wrath of their authority. Losing face is a no-no.

[Langsuan Man]

It is not just in Government offices, try dealing with the staff at the water company in Naklua, the most arrogant bunch of "twits" ( I love my British cousins quaint expressions) I have ever had to deal with

The electric company on the other hand are really great and really accommodating

[CharlieH]

Welcome to Thailand, this happens in almost every walk of life or occupation you encounter, I have never met a Thai who said "I cant", they say yes and completely f_*k it up ! then smile while they charge you to do it again.

As for rules and regulations, that will be whatever they interpret or want it to be at the time as they are in charge and love the power when available to display it.

You are a lowly ferang and have no say, just smile, roll with it and hope for someone better next time.

[Ijustwannateach]

If you're going to go to the wall and insist that someone admit he/she is wrong, you're probably going to lose.

If you're there on the spot and are pretty sure something is wrong- the best start to things is to play dumb, joke around a little bit and try to let the change of position come as if from the idea of the official without saying directly that he's wrong.

If that doesn't work out, next best thing when you get in touch with 'contacts'/go-between is to suggest that the official re-think the matter, possibly with a bottle of whisky as an encouragement. You're still not actually telling the official he got it wrong and there's saving face by 'pretending' to refer to the patronage system.

Yes, it isn't the way things 'should' be, if we were in another country... but it will get things done.

[RudieTheFoodie]

In Thailand, what you know as "Rules and Regulations" are ONLY a guide. Whoever you're dealing with in authority will ALWAYS interpret them as they see fit. When you are asked to bribe officials in official buildings by other officials - then you start to get the scale of it.

[givenall]

May be they really don't know and make something to show they know and save face

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[mackes]

The question was why this is so common in Thailand, thanks anyhow for hints of how to come along with it.

The "losing face" angle is probably true, and this goes for a lot of countries, especially in the West Asia. I believe it is a

good habit to not have people losing their face. We are just not used to it coming from the West. Something for us to learn?

The Thai rule books are quite clear about what applies and leave no room for interpretation. If you go all the way you will probably

get the right answer but the unwillingness to have other people (colleagues) to lose their face sometimes make it impossible

to have a correction.

I do believe that this is a clear sign of East - West differences in culture with the totally technical attitude of the West and the more

human suited view of the east. Thailand adapted some good (technical) things from the west but do not want to ignore humans.

Isn't the inability to regard the human incompleteness why many of us left the west?

So I join the group who suggest get used to it or try to be smart and get around it if it is important for you.

Next time I get an unfair decision I will back off and blame myself for taking things for granted and not thinking one step ahead...

[h90]

Picture the scene.

Two Thai Bomb Disposal experts. One quite new and up to date with current types of detonators.

Another, an old hand, been around a while. Kind of guy that puts motorbike tyres around the bomb or pokes it with a stick to see if its real.

Older officer : "I am now going to cut the red wire."

Younger officer : "But sir, it states clearly in the manual that in an event such as this, we need to cut the blue wire."

Older officer : Don't tell me how to do my job. How dare you. Do you know who I am ?"

Younger officer : Sir, If you cut the red wire, we will both die here today. Is face really worth our lives?"

Older officer : BOOM !

and there you have it in a nut shell.

Well at this job Darwin takes care. Everytime the wrong wire is cut the humanity genes are improved.

[samran]

The trick is to never get yourself into a situation where it is your words against theirs.

My early experiences in trying to find out if dual nationality was legal was part of my learning curve. Sometimes officials make it up as they went along.

Result, do the homework on your own, know the rules before you even walk in the door and come armed with them.

To be fair, most of my interactions have been straight down the line. But if there is any confusion, you can always politely drop in 'oh, I thought X, Y and. Z was possible'. At that point, having a rule book to refer to means that they can change tack means there is face saving all around.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I think you are coming from a very naive POV with unrealistic expectations.

There is very little concept of "public service" here. The main function of laws is to allow public officials to extract money from the weaker segments of society. Government positions function like franchises in a multi-level marketing scheme run by the mafia. You purchase a position - teacher, police officer, cabinet minister, and the price you have to pay is proportional to the potential income you can earn on the side via corruption. You usually have to pay your upstream sponsors a percentage of your take.

The best I hope for is that their actions are just a bit of extra tax and things are allowed to otherwise operate as usual. Unfortunately much of the truly evil stuff done here is under the direct sponsorship of very powerful people with no scruples at all.

What you should be surprised at is that you will occasionally run across a "public servant" who is actually doing "their job" as it is supposed to be in theory, who is friendly and civil and most of the time actually doing some good in the world.

[samran]

I think you are coming from a very naive POV with unrealistic expectations.

who me?

[jcw]

She would have had to pay a couple for years of salary for that position, all she is doing is getting a return on investment.

Ca not really blame here, it is the Thai way or the High way.

[Mario2008]

1 offensive post deleted.

[mca]

Result, do the homework on your own, know the rules before you even walk in the door and come armed with them.

To be fair, most of my interactions have been straight down the line. But if there is any confusion, you can always politely drop in 'oh, I thought X, Y and. Z was possible'. At that point, having a rule book to refer to means that they can change tack means there is face saving all around.

I agree. Back in the day when you could extend using your wife's salary a guy in Nong Khai Immi point blank told me it wasn't possible. Inside I may have thought " What a frigging dullard" but a polite "Oh I thought that if my wife earned blah blah..." caused him to ask the woman officer sitting next to him who confirmed it could be done. Of course having done the homework and examined the regs every which way but Sunday having all the paperwork to hand as he required it made things run a lot smoother.

He admitted that mine was the first case he'd come across using this method which was pretty hard to believe.

[salavan]

there are basic guidlines for immigration officers but at the end of the day it is up to the discretion of the immigration officer.

discretion encorages corruption

[CWMcMurray]

Your senario below is a little off, as the younger one would never dare to contradict the older Bomb disposal expert...

So the situation would be that the younger guy knew what the older guy was doing was wrong and was going to blow them up. Given the face issue, he could not say anything to the supperior, so just stood by as they wrong wire was cut and the bomb exploded.

Or if he was particularly clever, he may have advised that he needed to go to the bath room or bend down behind some cover to "tie his shoes".

Picture the scene.

Two Thai Bomb Disposal experts. One quite new and up to date with current types of detonators.

Another, an old hand, been around a while. Kind of guy that puts motorbike tyres around the bomb or pokes it with a stick to see if its real.

Older officer : "I am now going to cut the red wire."

Younger officer : "But sir, it states clearly in the manual that in an event such as this, we need to cut the blue wire."

Older officer : Don't tell me how to do my job. How dare you. Do you know who I am ?"

Younger officer : Sir, If you cut the red wire, we will both die here today. Is face really worth our lives?"

Older officer : BOOM !

and there you have it in a nut shell.

[TigerWan]

I shall always refer to Thailand as Lieland, as it seems that the entire code of conduct revolves around lying. OK for you guys and your sexual obsessions but for foreign women..... ??

After 6 years, the only nice thing I can say is I enjoy the weather where I live.

Really, way too many Thai Liars - can we just sort of take it over ? They don't deserve such a gorgeous country

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I shall always refer to Thailand as Lieland, as it seems that the entire code of conduct revolves around lying. OK for you guys and your sexual obsessions but for foreign women..... ??

After 6 years, the only nice thing I can say is I enjoy the weather where I live.

Really, way too many Thai Liars - can we just sort of take it over ? They don't deserve such a gorgeous country

Putting such a high value on verbal honesty is a cultural value that just isn't so common here outside of the monastery. Smooth surface social relations are considered much more important, and most lying is just being polite.

Obviously when you're actually the target of fraudulent deception, then that's a stronger moral issue, but I much prefer living somewhere where people are trying to scam me with their silver tongues, as opposed to engaging in pitched battles with live ammo down the street (yes I'm American).

And in fact I've had valuables I've lost or had pinched returned to me many times here, often at great inconvience to the Thai, many random acts of kindness that I just didn't experience in any of the English-native countries I've lived in.

Try to be a bit more open-minded and realize that very few people in the west are rigorously honest - in fact we have our fair share of just plain evil beings, many of whom are actually running the show back home.