Bringing Child To Uk

[KennethReed]

Situation as follows, have been married and settled in UK with my wife since 2007, she has a child born in 2003 in her own country, we would like to bring the child to the UK, the father of the child is still alive but he buggered of before the child was born and has little contact

So as bringing a child in is a complicated business, decided to seekk U.K. legal advice, which was basically even if you meet all the criteria, and the father gives his permission (sole responsibilty, and 'compassion' issues being subjective of course), if the childs father is still alive, you have very little chance

when a solicitor tells you you have a less than 50% chance (even when they can make even more money if we precede and still need there advice), you know your shafted

we all know the rationality, thanks Mr eton boy Cameroon, for **** all, you and your mob may be a 'good accountants', but you have little knowledge of people., unless there statistics of course, then your experts

[norrona]

Let me be the first to say with respect if your wife had a child already and you settled in the UK 5 years ago then why if there is such a bond did you not bring the child with you then?

That is your main obstacle and sticking point from what I have read of people with the same problem as yours previously.

No dig at you or your wife...just stating the facts.

[bobrussell]

This is going to be a very difficult one!

You will need to show that the mother has sole responsibility, makes all the day to day decisions etc but the time spent apart is going to make this very difficult.

Unless you can show that something has changed significantly to make it imperative that the child comes to the UK you are going to struggle. The longer the period of separation the harder it is to convince the ECO that a visa should be issued.

If you can present compelling compassionate grounds the ECO may be able to show a degree of discretion but it is going to be an uphill struggle I am afraid.

[tigerjohn]

we brought my wifes 2 kids over last year, their father still alive we had no problems but like other posters have said waiting 5yr before acting is not a good idea and think you will find it very difficult now?

[7by7]

Firstly, jumping on Nadine Dorries' bandwagon is pointless; the immigration rules regarding children have nothing to do with the current government; they have been in place and relatively unchanged for many years; especially the sole responsibility issue.

Secondly, your solicitor is wrong. There is no reason why a child cannot be granted settlement in the UK to accompany or join one parent whilst the other parent is still alive. The sticking point would be if the other parent, in this case the father, had custody of the child or the child had been living with the father's family.

The biggest problem you have is that mother and child have been separated for 5 years. As already commented upon, your wife will have to satisfactorily explain why she has not applied for the child to join her before now and what has changed so that now she is doing so.

Have a read of SET07 - Children and then feel free to ask any further questions.

[David48]

To the OP some things you haven't mentioned are...

• Who the child is currently living with?
  
• The level of communication that you have BOTH kept with the child.
  
• Evidence of the above.
  
• How you have educated the child in English and of the UK Culture.
  
• The number of times you have visited the child in Thailand.
  
• How many other children the wife has living in Thailand or other countries.
  
• The compelling reason why NOW and not some years ago that you have decided that it is in the child's best interest that the child should change it's entire life's future and be relocated to the UK.
  
• Is the decision to relocate the child more about your welfare ... or the child’s ?
  
• Your current personal circumstances
  
• Can you adequately (in the UK Government's mind) readily support a person in the household?
  

All a bit harsh ... not really.

Just being the devils advocate and asking you to think about these questions because I am sure a few of the above questions will be on the mind of the UK immigration officer when he/she reviews your application.

EDIT:- Was there actually a question in your opening statement that you need specifically answered?

Edited April 25, 2012 by David48

[7by7]

Mr. Reed, looking back over your posting history, it seems that you are confused as to the child's whereabouts.

In some posts you say that the child is living in Thailand, in later ones Namibia!

From your later posts your problem is with the Namibian authorities, not the UK ones. Even if the UK government do issue a visa for the child you have stated that the Namibian government will not allow the child to leave Namibia without the father's permission, and this you cannot get.

Asking about Thai law will be of no use to you if it is Namibian law you have to deal with!

Assuming that the Namibian story is true; the issue of the father's permission must be the first thing on your to-do list.

You first asked about this 14 months ago; what have you done since then to resolve this issue?

Other than talk to a solicitor who appears to be ignorant of UK immigration law and presumably knows even less of Namibian family law!

[ThaiVisaExpress]

• How many times has you're wife visited the child
  
• The father is Thai & what role does he play in the child's life
  
• Who does the child live with
  
• Can you demonstrate you have supported the child
  

[KennethReed]

Hi thank you for all your replies, My post was perhaps more out of a sense of a frustrating rant rather than asking any specific questions, and am grateful for all who have contributed

I use this forum because its the best forum i have found to give both general and specific advice on immigration matters, I used it extensively when getting my wifes Visa's sorted, especially comments made by 7by7,

The reason i stated earlier that the child was Thai rather than Namibian is that I didn't want to get into barnies with people saying this is a Thai forum not a namibian one etc (A namibian one does not exist !) 7by7 reffering to my previous postings, if I remember correctly the question i asked 14 months was a question regarding the UK Immigration authorities, with my assumption that the rules that the UK immigration authorities should abide by are pretty uniform between countries outside the EU, and i would imagine that Thailand and namibia would be bracketed together, so i think my original post if not entirely truthful (apologies if this has caused confusion) but still had validity, and its always good to gain knowledge aswell

I understand your point about getting the fathers permission being the first on the to do list, that is wahat we have been trying to do for a long time, however without success, it's one of the reasons we did not apply long ago So we are in a difficult position, we can either do nothing in which case the child will never come here anyway, or perhaps try and at least get the ILR first (which may get turned down, I know), and then use that as more leverage with the father, As i understand it the UK Authorities do not neccesarily contact the father in these circumstances as part of the Application , also my Solicitor staed that the ILR for the child was not end dated (don't know if in reality I believe this), so we could simply keep banging away until the bugger cracksm, which maybe he never will I know.

The child herself has no knowledge of what we are planning, nor is it fair to her to have any, in the likely event we get turned down, if we are fortunate enough to get her visa, then her thoughts and feelings will be taken into account at that time

whats changed for us is that i am in a better financial position to suppot the child, and the child lives with her grandparents who look after her very well in her homw country, but there are increasing health issues

In temrs of contact with the child and sole responsibility we have a lot of evidence etc that this is the case, seems we can never have enough though !

In terms of namibian law, hmmmm, the errant father has his rights I am more than well aware of that, extended family in namibia do a lot of work on our behalf

7by7, I am intested in your comment 'talk to a solicitor who appears to be ignorant of UK immigration law and presumably knows even less of Namibian family law! - I don't disagree and was not exactly impressed, however I beieve he was honest in hos summing up that we have little chance!, but could you expand on them please, our solicitor basically washed his hands of the namibian side of things and basically said - we can't do anything for you there, thats your problem mate, however in what way do you think that they are ignorant of U.K. immigration rules

wharts changed for us is that we are in a financially better position than we were before, and the child is cared for by elderly grandparents, in a warm and loving way, however they have health issues

[David48]

• We still don’t know the nationality of the Father
  
• Where the child currently lives
  
• If they have contact with the childs father
  
• “so we could simply keep banging away until the bugger cracksm, which maybe he never will I know” ... good luck for really trying to work out what the hidden meaning here is
  
• "The child herself has no knowledge of what we are planning" ... !
  
• "and the child lives with her grandparents who look after her very well in her homw country" … which is?
  
• "but there are increasing health issues" ... so it's about the grandparents welfare?
  

Add from my post above how about answering ...

• The level of communication that you have BOTH kept with the child.
  
• Evidence of the above.
  
• How you have educated the child in English and of the UK Culture.
  
• The number of times you have visited the child in Thailand (or what ever country she is in).
  
• How many other children the wife has living in Thailand or other countries.
  
• The compelling reason why NOW and not some years ago that you have decided that it is in the child's best interest that the child should change it's entire life's future and be relocated to the UK.
  

So ... what was the question the OP asked again?

7by7 ... you get paid much more then I do to answer these ... over to you ... I suffer fools lightly, but will bend over backwards to help someone who is willing and in need of help.

Edited April 27, 2012 by David48

[7by7]

7by7 ... you get paid much more then I do to answer these

I wish! I get paid exactly the same as you: zero, zilch, nada.

Mr. Reed, my comment on your solicitors level of knowledge was based upon him telling you that you had a less than 50% chance of obtaining a UK settlement visa for the child whilst the child's father was alive. My own experience, and that reported here by others, shows this to be completely untrue. A quick read of the relevant part of the immigration rules would confirm this; Para 297(i)(e).

The immigration rules and criteria for a UK visa are the same worldwide. However, whether ECOs in Namibia would have regard to the Namibian law saying that the father's permission is required and so not issue a visa without this; I don't know.

As the mother has ILR, the child, if successful, would be granted Indefinite Leave to Enter, which is the same as ILR except it is granted outside the UK not in. It will have a 'valid to' date of 27 months from issue. This is not the date it expires, but the date it must first be used to enter the UK.

So, if you do obtain ILE for the child without the father's permission then you will have 27 months to obtain it and bring the child to the UK, otherwise the ILE will lapse and you will have to start all over again.

[KennethReed]

Hi david, thanks for your reply- sorry for the lateness of it have answered questions, if you feel you can offer good advice - please do

• We still don’t know the nationality of the Father - Namibian
  
• Where the child currently lives - namibia
  
• If they have contact with the childs father - occasionnaly
  
• “so we could simply keep banging away until the bugger cracksm, which maybe he never will I know” ... good luck for really trying to work out what the hidden meaning here is - means he will hopefully allow the child to leave Namibia one day, preferably befor she is 18
  
• "The child herself has no knowledge of what we are planning" ... - explained before, if she has knowledge and we don't get the visa, this could do her more harm than good, if we do get the visa and then tell her, and she then decides she does not want to come anyway, we would respect her views
  
• "and the child lives with her grandparents who look after her very well in her homw country" … which is? - Namibia
  
• "but there are increasing health issues" ... so it's about the grandparents welfare? - both really, the grandparents are good people however they are getting older, they have suffered health issues, and this by default may have an advers effect on the child
  

Add from my post above how about answering ...

• The level of communication that you have BOTH kept with the child.- weekly allmost sometimes daily via skype
  
• Evidence of the above.- thats a bit harder, we do have skype records though, plus emails and phone calls and also have reciepts of monies we have spent over
  
• How you have educated the child in English and of the UK Culture. - She learmns english at her scvhool as one of the languages, English culture, well there is a good awareness of English and England in namibia, and with her mother living here she is more aware than most of her age, however we understand it will be a shock if she ever gets here
  
• The number of times you have visited the child in Thailand (or what ever country she is in) namibia, I have visited twice.
  
• How many other children the wife has living in Thailand or other countries, She and I have 2 U.K. based children, both U.K. citizens.
  
• The compelling reason why NOW and not some years ago that you have decided that it is in the child's best interest that the child should change it's entire life's future and be relocated to the UK - thats a very good question and one i have pondered - from my families point of view we are in a better position to look after the child that what we were 4 years ago - from the point of view of putting up a very good reason that the UK border Agency will accept, thats another question.
  

So ... what was the question the OP asked again? - he (I) didn't as i said it was a frustrated rant

7by7 ... you get paid much more then I do to answer these ... over to you ... I suffer fools lightly, but will bend over backwards to help someone who is willing and in need of help.

[7by7]

You may have read, and be concerned, that the rules regarding family settlement are being changed with effect from applications submitted on 9th July 2017. One major change being the financial requirement. However as your wife, the child's mother, already has ILR you/she will not have to meet this requirement.

From page 32 of the statement of intent.

If the migrant partner qualifies for indefinite leave to remain, they will be able to sponsor a child to settle in the UK after that without having to meet the financial requirement (income threshold). But they will have to demonstrate that (a) they now have ‘sole responsibility’ for a child who has lived apart from them overseas for a long period; and (b ) they will be able to maintain and accommodate the child adequately without recourse to public funds.

So you still need to show sole responsibility; as said, difficult to do after such a long separation. Even though the child's grandparents may now be too elderly and frail to look after the child, your wife will still need to explain why she has waited so long before considering having her child join her in the UK.

BTW, I hope it is the child's maternal grandparents; if it's the paternal ones you will have great difficulty.

However, again as said, your biggest hurdle is at the Namibian end; can the child get a passport without the father's permission and if he does, can he leave Namibia without his father's permission? Questions which it is unlikely anyone here can answer. You need to speak to someone who knows Namibian law.

Have you considered asking the Namibian High Commission?

If the answer to either of those questions is 'no' and the father wont give permission then whether or not the UKBA will grant the child a visa is irrelevant; the child wont be leaving Namibia!

[KennethReed]

Hi 7by7 many thanks

We we'll be applying at the end of July

We meet the financial requirements anyway (myself and my wife for one reason and another have been earning a bit more since the turn of the year, and have got 6 months worth of payslips to prove it),

Yes Sole responsibility, we are gathering letters from Namibia in from doctors and Teachers and also religous people to try and aid the application, not sure if they will count for much though however if it all helps, aswell as all the other recorded documetation

yes, its the maternal grandparents, the paternal ones have never seen the child, or very infrequentantly, the father has only seen her once or twice i believe.

In terms of coming up with a reason that we have waited so long, yes I know its a difficult one, i am trying to think of an explanation that will carry some weight, at the moment i can't, any ideas will be more than welcome (i don't really care if posters have a problem with this attitude) because ultimately that won't aid the application

Yes the namibian end, bottom line is if the father don't allow it, we can't bring her no, thats the situation. So that leaves us in a position of either doing something, which might help change his mind, ie the application, or doing nothing, in which case the child can't come anyway, all we can do for now is what we can,and this is it

One question, on the application form, who should (or can) be the sponsor, myself (who's financial affairs are much better) or my wife's, when we make the claim we will show proof from both sets of financial affairs

I know we are in an unfavourable sitaution here, If we end up with a positive result, i will be happy and suprised

[KennethReed]

Should have said, the Child already has a passport, and it in her grandparents possession, but If the father say no, we are buggered, if we have the Visa, hopefully it may persuade him to let the child come

[bobrussell]

An applicant can have more than one sponsor and it seems logical that you write a joint sponsorship letter especially if the financial side is in joint names.

If the grandparents are becoming infirm and unable to look after the child this may have some sway but be prepared to supply evidence (doctors letters etc) as it is unlikely to be accepted at face value.

As said above it is going to be very helpful to show evidence of regular and frequent contact with the child. Any correspondence with the school, evidence of paying fees etc will all help build up a picture of your wife being involved in making the day to day decisions.

I am not sure if there are reliable agents in Namibia but it may be possible that one of the agents sponsoring this site may be able to help with the application.

If the father is still on the scene in any guise the ECO may argue your wife cannot show sole parental responsibility.

Edited June 26, 2012 by bobrussell

[KennethReed]

Hi Bob, thnx

In reality I know the situation and to a degree the law in Namibia, its reasonably straightforward, my wife's family aid in this, its reasonably simple, to take a a child out of Namibia you need the express permission of both parents (If there both living), before about 2008 it was only the parent looking after the child, usually the mother if from a broken relationship, the law was changed to ensure the other parent could have reasonable access. ironically this was around the time we got married, and we could have done it then, I did not research this thoroughy at the time, I had an assumption that it would be reasonably straightforward to bring the child over at a later date. we started looking into this about 18 months ago and have had irregular contact with the childs father, requesting him to give his permission, he said yes a number of but would not commit in writing, so this in itself delayed the application for 18 months (not something we particularly want to put on the application though !)

the father is not 'on the scene' and never has been !

[VisasPlus]

It's difficult to give advice as Namibian law on custody may be ( and probably is ) very different to Thai law. For instance, you say that both parents must give permission for the child to travel. Certainly in some countries, including Thailand, the ECO might well refuse the application as he interprets this as the father making decisions in the child's life and, therefore, sharing some of the responsibility. In Philippines, I believe that the mother has legal custody until a child reaches 7 years old, and after that the child's opinion on who he wants to live with is taken into account. It would, therefore, be wrong to advise you on your best course of action, and, as 7x7 says, you should seek advice either from the a local immigration advisor, or from a lawyer who understands UK immigration law as it applies to your situation.

Apart from the legal aspect, your wife having to show sole responsibility is your biggest hurdle. In view of the grandparents advanced years you might, however, be able to make a case on compassionate grounds ( they being unable to care for the child, no other relatives in Namibia, etc ), and it might be worth considering making the application on both grounds, ie sole responsibility and compassionate reasons. If one ground fails, the other might succeed. It will need some careful arguing, though !

[bobrussell]

It's difficult to give advice as Namibian law on custody may be ( and probably is ) very different to Thai law. For instance, you say that both parents must give permission for the child to travel. Certainly in some countries, including Thailand, the ECO might well refuse the application as he interprets this as the father making decisions in the child's life and, therefore, sharing some of the responsibility. In Philippines, I believe that the mother has legal custody until a child reaches 7 years old, and after that the child's opinion on who he wants to live with is taken into account. It would, therefore, be wrong to advise you on your best course of action, and, as 7x7 says, you should seek advice either from the a local immigration advisor, or from a lawyer who understands UK immigration law as it applies to your situation.

Apart from the legal aspect, your wife having to show sole responsibility is your biggest hurdle. In view of the grandparents advanced years you might, however, be able to make a case on compassionate grounds ( they being unable to care for the child, no other relatives in Namibia, etc ), and it might be worth considering making the application on both grounds, ie sole responsibility and compassionate reasons. If one ground fails, the other might succeed. It will need some careful arguing, though !

UK immigration applications are pretty standard (as far as I know!) so my suggestion of using the experienced agents here would only be for the visa application. How the application is presented can make a big difference to a difficult application!

Perhaps not a viable option to open a Namibian branch!

[KennethReed]

Certainly in some countries, including Thailand, the ECO might well refuse the application as he interprets this as the father making decisions in the child's life and, therefore, sharing some of the responsibility.

yes, that might apply in this case, however it would be slightly ironic if after 8 years of the father taking absolutely no responsibilty for his child life, this is given as a reason to refuse a visa!

To what length the Border agency will go to contact the father and verify anything concerning the application or not is interesting, our UK lawyer, who to be honest has not told me much i did not already know was unsure on this

[bobrussell]

Certainly in some countries, including Thailand, the ECO might well refuse the application as he interprets this as the father making decisions in the child's life and, therefore, sharing some of the responsibility.

yes, that might apply in this case, however it would be slightly ironic if after 8 years of the father taking absolutely no responsibilty for his child life, this is given as a reason to refuse a visa!

To what length the Border agency will go to contact the father and verify anything concerning the application or not is interesting, our UK lawyer, who to be honest has not told me much i did not already know was unsure on this

It is likely that they will phone and question the people looking after the child. The answers given need to be consistent with the application. I doubt they would make a lot of effort getting more evidence but would reject the application. It is the applicants responsibility to provide the evidence, not the ECO's job to be a detective. The applicant has to 'prove' sole responsibility not for the ECO to 'prove' they don't.

Edited June 27, 2012 by bobrussell