In Thailand, Killings Of Lesbians Go Unpunished

[webfact]

In Thailand, Killings of Lesbians Go Unpunished

by Paul Canning

THAILAND: -- Back in December, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights published a landmark report identifying that violence against LGBT people “tends to be especially vicious compared to other bias-motivated crimes.” It said that states have an “obligation to exercise due diligence” to investigate and prosecute such crimes.

Thailand is a country often assumed to be LGBT friendly because of the tolerance that is part of Thai Buddhism, but human rights advocates are protesting a pattern of killings of lesbians and ‘tomboys.’ ‘Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion.

Most of the killings have been dismissed by police as “love gone sour” or the fault of the victims.

They have verified information in 15 murder cases over the last few years, the youngest of whom was 17. In addition to being stabbed multiple times, suffocated, strangled, or shot to death, many of the lesbians and toms had also been raped. In two cases of double homicides, lesbian couples were killed by men who objected to their relationship and felt rebuffed when their attempts at coercing one partner into a heterosexual relationship failed. [more...]

Full story: http://www.care2.com...unpunished.html

-- Care2 2012-05-01

[pacovl46]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms, and that this has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the victims. The title makes it sound like only murders of lesbians go unpunished which is certainly not the case!

[blacksuitdandruff]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

[tomross46]

Murders in Thailand, depends on the ranking of the person killed. Thousands of people were killed, in the name of drug eradication. Politiciand sons kill people and nothing happens.

[Ferangled]

Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion

Surely "Tom" is just a common Thai abbreviation of the term "Tomboy" used widely to describe females that act or dress in a masculine manner. In my experience just because a Thai girl is labelled a "Tom" doesn't indicate that she's actually a practicing lesbian.

My wife's niece is a classic Tomboy, boys clothes, boys hairdo etc even to the extent of having feminine "girl friends". They're not actually indulging in a lesbian relationship, they are just teenagers having a bit of fun. Thais seem generally to be very accepting of this and similar deviations from the accepted "norm".

While I have the greatest sympathies with the victims and their families, I feel this article is just sensationalist BS starting with the OTT headline. In my experience the Thai BiB have a reluctance to investigate anything properly without financial motivation and don't limit their incompetence exclusively to lesbian murder cases as this article suggests....

[Markaew]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms, and that this has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the victims. The title makes it sound like only murders of lesbians go unpunished which is certainly not the case!

I think you summed up the general response to this topic. Murders of every flavor go unpunished. Death/murder seems to be part of everyday life here.

[Suradit69]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms ...

Based on what special knowledge ... or is this more home-spun wisdom?

People in the much vaunted "west" are arrested and convicted improperly on a massive scale, implying that the true criminals go Scot free (many of them eluding western police and immigrations to go on holiday in Thailand where Thai police are expected to arrest them for deportation).

We tend to think about miscarriages of justice as rare and exceptional occurrences. Prominent cases such as the Birmingham six, Guildford Four, Bridgewater four, M25 three, Cardiff three, Stephen Downing, and so on create the impression that miscarriages of justice are seen as very much an intermittent, high profile and small scale problem; that there are very few victims in the context of the statistics of all criminal convictions. But there are many more cases than those which receive prominent coverage in the media. Those cases of criminal conviction that are routinely quashed by the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division), or by the Crown Court for convictions previously obtained in the magistrates' court have received no attention at all.

If we pay more attention to these routinely quashed convictions, we find a scale of miscarriage of justice to fundamentally challenges any notion that the current system of criminal justice is weighted too much in favour of the defendant. The Lord Chancellor's Department's statistics on successful appeals against criminal conviction show that in the decade 1989-1999 the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) abated over 8,470 criminal convictions - a yearly average of 770. In addition, there are around 3,500 quashed criminal convictions a year at the Crown Court for convictions obtained at the magistrates' courts. Contrary to popular perceptions, then, wrongful criminal convictions are a normal, everyday feature of the criminal justice system - the system doesn't just sometimes get it wrong, it gets it wrong everyday, of every week, of every month of every year. With the result that thousands of innocent people experience a whole variety of harmful consequences that wrongful criminal convictions engender.

http://www.guardian....onsandprobation

Edited May 1, 2012 by Suradit69

[ralphlsasser]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

If she wants someone else. Let her go and find someone else. Not worth fighting over. That wouldn't help anyone except maybe yourself.

[easybullet3]

Firstly: a TOM BOY is a girl that 'acts and dresses' like a guy. NOT A LESBIAN!!!

so, apart from bad vocabulary, i agree with a few other people in this forum. its not just lesbian murders that go un-investigated... there are LOADS of murders in Thailand that are not investigated properly. How many naked murdered foreigners did the police 'write-off' as suicide?

also, from the 'full article':

"The mother of the girlfriend engineered the murder of the tom and promised to marry off her daughter to the ex-boyfriend who committed the murder"

- Geez!! i mean.. when I read this I was shocked at how evil, dumb, stupid, nasty some people can be!! especially DUMB!!!)

how on earth did they expect to get away with it!!

- i'm appalled at humans sometimes.

[drdoom6996]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms, and that this has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the victims. The title makes it sound like only murders of lesbians go unpunished which is certainly not the case!

I think you summed up the general response to this topic. Murders of every flavor go unpunished. Death/murder seems to be part of everyday life here.

+1

[merlen10002]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

If she wants someone else. Let her go and find someone else. Not worth fighting over. That wouldn't help anyone except maybe yourself.

Can not see how fighting over someone that does not want to be with you any more is good for anyone, just forget her,, many more out there and one that would be better to be with for sure..

[Payboy]

LGBT

What does that stand for.

[hellodolly]

What gets me is the source

United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights

It would seem that all these various human right's organizations have a story that they blow way out of proportion. I guess they feel the need to justify their existence.

There is munch wrong in the world but there is far more right. They tend to try to put every thing in a light that shows them as a real problem on a gigantic scale.

[cusanus]

I'd say, that most murders in Thailand aren't properly investigated in comparison to western countries in scientific terms, and that this has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the victims. The title makes it sound like only murders of lesbians go unpunished which is certainly not the case!

Most of the murders I was aware of in the states were not investigated at all. That's why I moved, in addition to there being strong sentiments expressed that the next could be my own.

[Ijustwannateach]

I have the strangest feeling of deja vu commenting on this thread, almost as though the same news had been posted in the gay forum not long ago and there was still a thread even on the top page about it....

I even have the feeling that I made this very remark not long ago on this thread... Anyway...

I'm sure that there ARE 15 uninvestigated or poorly investigated murders of lesbians. In fact, I am sure there are a lot more. I am sure there are huge numbers of unreported, uninvestigated, unfair and improperly handled cases of attacks on women of all kinds, including children, probably by men of various kinds, numerous of which are probably relatives or family of the women in question.

In fact, I bet there are at least 15 outstanding uninvestigated or poorly investigated cases of murders of gay men. In fact, I bet there are at least 15 outstanding uninvestigated or poorly investigated cases of murders of illegal Burmese immigrants, some of whom were bound to have been lesbians or gays.

The most surprising thing about this article to me is how it reports in complete ignorance of the actual way that the Thai 'police' and otherwise 'justice' system 'operates', even as it is reported openly in the news. Considering the overall background of corruption, poor funding, weak institutions of law, and lack of respect for the low status of all kinds, how is it possible that 15 cases nationwide can be represented as discriminatory given the deep smog of 'business as usual'?

[blacksuitdandruff]

i can see how it's tough for some men to accept that their ex-gfs have gone to the other side.

it doesn't help when one sees their ex-gf with her new tom gf.

it would make me feel less manly, but enough to murder?

probably not, but to fight?

maybe if the tom was bigger than me...what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love for your now lesbian ex-gf, right???

wonder if the same phenomenon occurs to women when their ex-bfs goes on to date a lady boy? sounds like a good storyline for a thai music video.

If she wants someone else. Let her go and find someone else. Not worth fighting over. That wouldn't help anyone except maybe yourself.

Can not see how fighting over someone that does not want to be with you any more is good for anyone, just forget her,, many more out there and one that would be better to be with for sure..

i like how you two believe i would fight the tom.

no, that's not what i was saying nor implying.

i was saying i can understand what would motivate a man (presumably) to commit such a crime. i'm not condoning it, just empathizing albeit it from a computer keyboard

instead of fighting, i'd like to watch my ex-gf gone lesbian with her tom gf in bed together to see if i could learn a thing or two.

maybe i would need a video recorder being that i usually cannot scribble that fast on my small notepad.

but thanks for the concern and suggestions.

[skippero]

LBGT means Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgender.

[Schuimpge]

LGBT

What does that stand for.

Lesbian

Gay

Bi

Tomboy...Well, did see the previous post with Trans-Sexual just after posting this...makes more sense indeed, but where does that leave the Tomboy?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Schuimpge

[tragickingdom]

The UN rights commission is made up out of countries that trample on human rights themselves. It is hard to believe that murders on lesbians, Gays or Ladyboys go unpunished on purpose. Lot's of murders are unsolved and go unpunished. That has to do with negligence, incompetence and false assumptions. Let the UN point their attention to countries like Cuba and Venezuela who deliver the members of the commission.

[elektrified]

Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion

Surely "Tom" is just a common Thai abbreviation of the term "Tomboy" used widely to describe females that act or dress in a masculine manner. In my experience just because a Thai girl is labelled a "Tom" doesn't indicate that she's actually a practicing lesbian.

My wife's niece is a classic Tomboy, boys clothes, boys hairdo etc even to the extent of having feminine "girl friends". They're not actually indulging in a lesbian relationship, they are just teenagers having a bit of fun. Thais seem generally to be very accepting of this and similar deviations from the accepted "norm".

While I have the greatest sympathies with the victims and their families, I feel this article is just sensationalist BS starting with the OTT headline. In my experience the Thai BiB have a reluctance to investigate anything properly without financial motivation and don't limit their incompetence exclusively to lesbian murder cases as this article suggests....

Wow are you naive!

[Ferangled]

Tom’ is a specifically Thai gender identity where lesbian women dress, act and speak in a masculine fashion

Surely "Tom" is just a common Thai abbreviation of the term "Tomboy" used widely to describe females that act or dress in a masculine manner. In my experience just because a Thai girl is labelled a "Tom" doesn't indicate that she's actually a practicing lesbian.

My wife's niece is a classic Tomboy, boys clothes, boys hairdo etc even to the extent of having feminine "girl friends". They're not actually indulging in a lesbian relationship, they are just teenagers having a bit of fun. Thais seem generally to be very accepting of this and similar deviations from the accepted "norm".

While I have the greatest sympathies with the victims and their families, I feel this article is just sensationalist BS starting with the OTT headline. In my experience the Thai BiB have a reluctance to investigate anything properly without financial motivation and don't limit their incompetence exclusively to lesbian murder cases as this article suggests....

Wow are you naive!

Care to clarify that comment or even attempt to contribute constructively?!

[animatic]

Firstly: a TOM BOY is a girl that 'acts and dresses' like a guy. NOT A LESBIAN!!!

so, apart from bad vocabulary, i agree with a few other people in this forum. its not just lesbian murders that go un-investigated... there are LOADS of murders in Thailand that are not investigated properly. How many naked murdered foreigners did the police 'write-off' as suicide?

also, from the 'full article':

"The mother of the girlfriend engineered the murder of the tom and promised to marry off her daughter to the ex-boyfriend who committed the murder"

- Geez!! i mean.. when I read this I was shocked at how evil, dumb, stupid, nasty some people can be!! especially DUMB!!!)

how on earth did they expect to get away with it!!

- i'm appalled at humans sometimes.

In your country yes.

But in Thailand there is a particular group called Toms,

who are as described Lesbians who we might call butch.

They typically pair with Dees or feminine looking girls, often just trying it on,

for a first time, and are typically passive partners often accepting being

treated much better than their hetero boyfriends treated them in past relationships.

But not exclusively Tom with Dee here, but typically.

I have a tom friend and she's had both tom and dee girlfriends,

and her crowd is a mix of both, and generally straight musicians.

So in theory you are right for your home but not necessarily for here.

So I can see some macho types seeing their feminine girlfriend now with a mannish woman and refusing to come back, feeling their honor is somehow besmirched. I also see it as stupid and shallow.

And rather than they wonder what THEY did so wrong to make her leave, and then take up with someone willing to treat her like a princess, they lash put and figure' if they get rid of the Tom then the girl will come back'. Wrong you ran them off with bad personality, and they met someone else, fool.

It is a blindly insecure narcissistic reaction, and likely explains the personality defects that made the girl leave to begin with. And when that moves to violence it is likely quite violent since honor here is blown out of proportion.

Truly sad, and the police MUST do better... but doubtful this will happen unless something like a 'League For Pro-Tom Justice' creates a fund to pay for investigations into tom murders.

Edited May 1, 2012 by animatic

[brewsterbudgen]

Firstly: a TOM BOY is a girl that 'acts and dresses' like a guy. NOT A LESBIAN!!!

so, apart from bad vocabulary, i agree with a few other people in this forum. its not just lesbian murders that go un-investigated... there are LOADS of murders in Thailand that are not investigated properly. How many naked murdered foreigners did the police 'write-off' as suicide?

also, from the 'full article':

"The mother of the girlfriend engineered the murder of the tom and promised to marry off her daughter to the ex-boyfriend who committed the murder"

- Geez!! i mean.. when I read this I was shocked at how evil, dumb, stupid, nasty some people can be!! especially DUMB!!!)

how on earth did they expect to get away with it!!

- i'm appalled at humans sometimes.

In your country yes.

But in Thailand there is a particular group called Toms,

who are as described Lesbians who we might call butch.

They typically pair with Dees or feminine looking girls, often just trying it on,

for a first time, and are typically passive partners often accepting being

treated much better than their hetero boyfriends treated them in past relationships.

But not exclusively Tom with Dee here, but typically.

I have a tom friend and she's had both tom and dee girlfriends,

and her crowd is a mix of both, and generally straight musicians.

So in theory you are right for your home but not necessarily for here.

So I can see some macho types seeing their feminine girlfriend now with a mannish woman and refusing to come back, feeling their honor is somehow besmirched. I also see it as stupid and shallow.

And rather than they wonder what THEY did so wrong to make her leave, and then take up with someone willing to treat her like a princess, they lash put and figure' if they get rid of the Tom then the girl will come back'. Wrong you ran them off with bad personality, and they met someone else, fool.

It is a blindly insecure narcissistic reaction, and likely explains the personality defects that made the girl leave to begin with. And when that moves to violence it is likely quite violent since honor here is blown out of proportion.

Truly sad, and the police MUST do better... but doubtful this will happen unless something like a 'League For Pro-Tom Justice' creates a fund to pay for investigations into tom murders.

Good post. At least someone commenting on this thread knows what they're talking about.

[rwhoov]

Why am I so no suprised. The BIB seem to have priorities other than enforcing the law. I mean, they couldn't (didn't) even keep the major airport form being occupied by a political group, and then they couldn't (wouldn't) keep the other side from occupying downtown. I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to keep any kind of order... except to gather fines for not wearing motorcycle helmuts.

[Nigel1500]

Murders in Thailand, depends on the ranking of the person killed. Thousands of people were killed, in the name of drug eradication. Politiciand sons kill people and nothing happens.

Just like any other country in the world.

[Nigel1500]

Firstly: a TOM BOY is a girl that 'acts and dresses' like a guy. NOT A LESBIAN!!!

... er ... except in Thailand ... we are in Thailand, aren't we? Given all the cynicism I think so ... I just checked with my wife, a "Tom Boy" is an expression used to describe lesbians in Thailand.

[DavidB4]

Blacksuit, if that's all it take to make you feel unmanly and want to fight maybe you should consider a gender switch? Oh and if that was a real question about "what better way to test your manhood and show your undying love"?...ahhh....NO. Guess we know why she's an ex-girlfriend.

[Payboy]

LGBT

What does that stand for.

Lesbian

Gay

Bi

Tomboy...Well, did see the previous post with Trans-Sexual just after posting this...makes more sense indeed, but where does that leave the Tomboy?

Hey thanks Schuimpge & Skippero.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Payboy

[TeddyFlyfisherDavis]

Have been "dismissed as love gone sour or the fault of the victims"...Where in hell do these people get their brains from...? It is still a GD DMD killing...Holy sht...!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe what I just read...

[mowgus]

Firstly: a TOM BOY is a girl that 'acts and dresses' like a guy. NOT A LESBIAN!!!

so, apart from bad vocabulary, i agree with a few other people in this forum. its not just lesbian murders that go un-investigated... there are LOADS of murders in Thailand that are not investigated properly. How many naked murdered foreigners did the police 'write-off' as suicide?

also, from the 'full article':

"The mother of the girlfriend engineered the murder of the tom and promised to marry off her daughter to the ex-boyfriend who committed the murder"

- Geez!! i mean.. when I read this I was shocked at how evil, dumb, stupid, nasty some people can be!! especially DUMB!!!)

how on earth did they expect to get away with it!!

- i'm appalled at humans sometimes.

Incorrect. Ask a Thai person what a tomboy is. Westerners see tomboys as you described. Thais label lesbians as tomboys. Regardless, sad. Thailand simply doesn't take crime of any sort seriously. Especially sad in cases of violence and murder .