Middle Class In Thailand

[JurgenG]

We often oppose the working class agains the 'Hi-so" but Thailand like any other country has a middle class.

For you what is the middle class of Thailand ? The upper middle class ? The "Hi-so" ? And any other class ? The 1% ...

How much do they earn ? What do they do for a living ? The size of their house ? The kind of car they drive ?

Is there any difference between Bangkok and the other cities, big and small, of Thailand ?

It would be interesting to have the different views of the posters according to where they live.

And of course to have the hard facts.

[wana]

i would say (guess ) 80-90% of thais could be classified as poor /low paid /working class /bottom range salary

10-15% are likely to be hi-society /rich /very well paid

1-5% are likely to be too rich to care what things costs /probably dont even have to work /buy everything from paragon /have servants do everything for them etc

this is just a very rough estimation ,there is no way to give exact figures on wealth in a country where much of the economy thrives under the table and hardly anyone reports earnings or pays tax etc

[GuestHouse]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

[Beetlejuice]

i would say (guess ) 80-90% of thais could be classified as poor /low paid /working class /bottom range salary

10-15% are likely to be hi-society /rich /very well paid

1-5% are likely to be too rich to care what things costs /probably dont even have to work /buy everything from paragon /have servants do everything for them etc

this is just a very rough estimation ,there is no way to give exact figures on wealth in a country where much of the economy thrives under the table and hardly anyone reports earnings or pays tax etc

I would say that the numbers of Thai poor are no where near those figures.

The numbers of Thai middle class are not as numerous as they used to be as many were financially wiped out during the 1997 Asian financial crisis and never recovered, but also during that time there were a greater number of underclass and poor within the outer cities and spread over several regions of the Kingdom.

But a lot has changed and today the rural Thais may seem poor according to appearances and lifestyle, but many are owners of huge amounts of land that has been inherited from past generations, and although lacking in funds, cash flow and on low incomes, actually have a considerable wealth in assets, so these people could be categorised as upper working class or middle class.

Living standards in Thailand have much improved over the last 25 years, and I would guess that the most prosperous are living in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and other northern provinces and the most poverty stricken in the North eastern regions of the country.

Appearances can be deceptive and I believe that the Thais are much wealthier these days than many people may believe, although I cannot produce any official facts or figures.

Just my opinion folks.

[farang000999]

For myself, a good parameter of middle class is when I do not have to feel guilty or try to downplay my wealth and spending around another individual.

[trainman34014]

Up here in the North I would say we have a very good sprinkling of what I would call middle class Thai's. If you take a good look around Chiang Mai province, not just the City, there are a lot of lovely homes tucked away in the Countryside that are not normally noticed on a day to day basis. Quite large families live in many of these homes and they have plenty of new vehicles around and people who look after the grounds etc. A lot of these people keep a fairly low profile, particularly the older members of the family who don't splash indications of wealth around. Much of their money has been made in family business or, more recently, by selling off surplus land left to them by Grandparents and Parents. I know personally of two such families, one of them being my Wife's extended family who have sold off many rai of land to contractors to build on. The second family are neighbours of family in the old City and to look at them or talk to them you wouldn't know they had two satang to rub together as they don't advertise their wealth to the outside world. However; the old lady of the house is always moaning to Wifey's family that they are down to their last five million baht or so and don't know if they will be going on holiday or not. Suddenly they announce that all six members of the tribe are off to Oz for a month, this being just five months after three weeks in China !

It is my honest opinion that at least 25% of the population in this part of the country are now middle class. There is an enormous amount of hidden wealth and remember too that the Thai's just love to spread the word that they are 'just poor people'. I've met plenty of those and later found out they are better off than I will probably ever be.

[TommoPhysicist]

But a lot has changed and today the rural Thais may seem poor according to appearances and lifestyle, but many are owners of huge amounts of land that has been inherited from past generations, and although lacking in funds, cash flow and on low incomes, actually have a considerable wealth in assets, so these people could be categorised as upper working class or middle class.

Class difference is not defined by the amount of money of assets a person has.

Upper class is defined by birth, it is a closed class that nobody can enter, no matter how hard they work, or how much money they accumulate.

Middle class is defined by education and occupation, a farm worker cannot be middle class (if your work makes you sweat, you aren't middle class).

Lower class is also defined by education and occupation.

Middle class and upper class can both be poor in money and assets.

Edited May 2, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[wana]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

the numbers were a rough generalistion i felt accurate enough to discuss the grading of "wealth"

i can count to 100 most days

besides we both arrived at the same conclusion that 80% are more or less poor if ,by your own receckonig

20% are to be included in a "middle class " rich

this could be an interesting thread so i wont de-rail any it further by quibling over the percentile groups

that was my guesstimate ,im interested to see how others view it though

[h90]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

I would say:

90 % are poor

35 % middle class

2 % rich

(in the same percentage calculation as Wana)

[wana]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

I would say:

90 % are poor

35 % middle class

2 % rich

(in the same percentage calculation as Wana)

can i change my answer ?

80% poor

15% rich

5 % rich but fxxcking ultra rich richer than the normal 15% that can qualify for richness ........

[bendix]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

I would say:

90 % are poor

35 % middle class

2 % rich

(in the same percentage calculation as Wana)

can i change my answer ?

80% poor

15% rich

5 % rich but fxxcking ultra rich richer than the normal 15% that can qualify for richness ........

So how many are middle class then?

[TommoPhysicist]

So how many are middle class then?

It would be impossible to say without knowing their occupations.

[wana]

Wana, how many percentage points make 100%? (it's not a trick question!).

There are some difficulties defining class in Thailand on the basis of our understanding of class from the west.

Land ownership is much higher here, but land owners may be cash poor and have little or no education.

The term Hi-So is meanigkess drivel - essentially anyone with money.

I suspect though the numbers making up the aristocracy and minor aristocracy are very well defined.

If we forget cash and cars, always a poor indicator of class and use education and occupation to define middke class and add in Thai old Phu Yai families as old middle class then I expect the Thai middle class to be about 20% of the population.

N

I would say:

90 % are poor

35 % middle class

2 % rich

(in the same percentage calculation as Wana)

can i change my answer ?

80% poor

15% rich

5 % rich but fxxcking ultra rich richer than the normal 15% that can qualify for richness ........

So how many are middle class then?

i thought in thailand ( a poor country ) ,anyone with lots of money is middle class wealthy

dont matter if they earned it from owning a huge farm ,owning a shopping plaza or even being in a sleazy but well paid job such as a lawyer .....

[brit1984]

Under-class: homeless / beggars / prostitutes

Lower-class: farmers / blue-collar workers / mom&pop shop owner-managers

Middle-class: office workers / business owners (excl. mom&pop shops)

Upper-class: land (or asset) owners that need not work (from birth to death)

[TommoPhysicist]

i thought in thailand ( a poor country ) ,anyone with lots of money is middle class wealthy

dont matter if they earned it from owning a huge farm ,owning a shopping plaza or even being in a sleazy but well paid job such as a lawyer .....

You would be wrong then, class structure in a feudal society is not, by any means, wealth based.

Brit has it right.

Edited May 2, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[GuestHouse]

Sociologists can't all agree on the definition of middle class, but in general it is not related to wealth and far more dependent upon a set of attitudes and aspirations, particularly education (not necessarily their own education but also an aspiration for their children's education), delayed gratitude, i.e. attitudes to savings, and life expenditure planning and political/social activity.

The importance of this is that it is these Middle Class attitudes which determine social trends, not merely cash expenditure.

[samran]

Under-class: homeless / beggars / prostitutes

Lower-class: farmers / blue-collar workers / mom&pop shop owner-managers

Middle-class: office workers / business owners (excl. mom&pop shops)

Upper-class: land (or asset) owners that need not work (from birth to death)

I started using the word 'class', but sometimes I feel like I'm talking about income more than anything. But anyhoo, here is my take...

Upper class: These guys turn left when getting on a plane, and have flown first class more times than they have sat in a BKK Taxi (never). Kids educated in UK.

Upper Middle Class: in many cases, family asset wise, probably much better off asset wise than 'middle classer's back home. Drive late-ish model cars, keep them for a few years. Can generally afford to send one or two of their kids to school internationally for an MBA after they've graduated from Chula or Thamassart. Tend to work in areas such as finance, law, engineering etc for big reputable firms if they don't work in the family biz. Can include the newly monied (though not excessively) or the children/grand children of the upper class, who have to rely more on their own wits.

Lower middle class: The vast bulk of the 'middle class'. Probably working in an office job, or a locally successful small business, or otherwise, an unconnected civil servant who hopes to reach a salary of 60,000/baht per month before they retire. Aspirational for sure, and not necessarily under education, but work in fields which don't pay hugely in the Thai context. Look after themselves and immediate family pretty well. Hope to send their kids to Chula or Thamassart. Occasional trip to Singapore, Vietnam or Laos for holidays.

Edited May 2, 2012 by samran

[DP25]

But a lot has changed and today the rural Thais may seem poor according to appearances and lifestyle, but many are owners of huge amounts of land that has been inherited from past generations, and although lacking in funds, cash flow and on low incomes, actually have a considerable wealth in assets, so these people could be categorised as upper working class or middle class.

Class difference is not defined by the amount of money of assets a person has.

Upper class is defined by birth, it is a closed class that nobody can enter, no matter how hard they work, or how much money they accumulate.

Middle class is defined by education and occupation, a farm worker cannot be middle class (if your work makes you sweat, you aren't middle class).

Lower class is also defined by education and occupation.

Middle class and upper class can both be poor in money and assets.

That's the case in the UK but that's not how we usually use these terms in the US. It's all purely monetary based for us. It's just based on high income and assets, medium, and low income. There are of course layers within each of these groups. Most would consider the top 1-2% to be upper class, but above most of that group would be the people with assets worth hundreds of millions or billions and don't need to work at all if they chose. Someone who is not rich though is not upper class in the US, and a successful farmer or a rapper born in the ghetto could be

Edited May 2, 2012 by DP25

[Sayonarax]

Under-class: homeless / beggars / prostitutes

Lower-class: farmers / blue-collar workers / mom&pop shop owner-managers

Middle-class: office workers / business owners (excl. mom&pop shops)

Upper-class: land (or asset) owners that need not work (from birth to death)

You forgot the Elite-Class

[TommoPhysicist]

I was under the impression the USA was a classless society.

One people indivisible ....... blah blah

[chops]

Just by eyeing things I would guess the typical income around here to be 20k-30k/month. They're not poor as much as some farangs think they are..

[villagefarang]

I think the answers the OP gets here will be heavily influenced by the class bias of the poster and have little to do with “hard facts.”

Whatever the percentages, we are talking about a large number of people. I dare say larger than the entire population of many a poster’s homeland.

I have no hard facts but will offer that I am more influenced by the knowledge, manners and speech patterns of the Thais I meet than by the size of their bank account.

In addition, love it or hate it, Bangkok is where the best and brightest have more chance of displaying their talents and being exposed to what the rest of the world has to offer. I have always felt more comfortable around successful Bangkok people, though I no longer live there.

[geriatrickid]

Middle class would be that 80% you see on the distribution of income curve with a segment at each end for lower and upper middle class. It has to be, since this is a relative comparison. In Thailand, like the USA, Russia and China, the high end of the scale is very skewed in one direction with a small segment accounting for a large part of the income.

[nocturn]

Sociologists can't all agree on the definition of middle class, but in general it is not related to wealth and far more dependent upon a set of attitudes and aspirations, particularly education (not necessarily their own education but also an aspiration for their children's education), delayed gratitude, i.e. attitudes to savings, and life expenditure planning and political/social activity.

The importance of this is that it is these Middle Class attitudes which determine social trends, not merely cash expenditure.

this is not directed at guesthouse, in fact i agree with him and i would reckon most of you would not know your asses from a hole in the ground when it comes to the thai people around you

Certainly, you spend your time seeing middle to upper middle class thais and calling them hi-so.

you also rant on about feudal societies, but manage to ignore the fact that economics are dictating thai social structure. Sure, there is a well defined aristocracy, but is the Thaksin family hi-so? And are the hi-so part of that aristocracy?

Originally, aristocrats and the hi-so were one and the same, but there is a massive nouveau riche culture here that has pushed those definitions to where the Thaksins actually rate.

Thaksin and clan are point in case on upward mobility.

Who are the thai middle class? you see them everywhere. They are the ones with the cars and the condos, and the houses in the towns and villages all over Thailand. Their numbers are growing, their wealth is growing and their expectations are growing.

The truly rich and aristocratic number in the 10 percent bracket. The line between middle class and poor is becoming more and more blurred, so much so that it is hard to call.

Many of the rural poor are saving to educate their children who are becoming lower middle class or higher on their own merit.

Many are marrying up.

The term middle class in the US once meant a car in every garage and a chicken every pot, by those standards, the thai middle class is larger than you suspect.

Large enough in fact to make all those 20,000 thb is 2 months salary to your average thai comments so common here seem increasingly ridiculous.

[TommoPhysicist]

Large enough in fact to make all those 20,000 thb is 2 months salary to your average thai comments so common here seem increasingly ridiculous.

20,000 bht is two months income for my household ......

Yet my wife owns outright, 25rai of arable land, 30 rai of forest, a teak farmhouse and another house with 5 rai of rice paddy in another village nearby. We are definitely poor, lower class farmers.

[transam]

Large enough in fact to make all those 20,000 thb is 2 months salary to your average thai comments so common here seem increasingly ridiculous.

20,000 bht is two months income for my household ......

Yet my wife owns outright, 25rai of arable land, 30 rai of forest, a teak farmhouse and another house with 5 rai of rice paddy in another village nearby. We are definitely poor, lower class farmers.

Yes you are. Feel a bit sorry for you BUT you did marry her for her ''wealth'' eh.

[chiang mai]

There's loads of reports out there on this subject, here;s one article that explains the class structure - other articles calculate the middle class at anywhere between 20% and 75% of the population!.

http://countrystudies.us/thailand/52.htm

[balo]

In my area I would say that 40% of the people I see is middle class, living in small apartments .Total income in the household propaply around 20k and they own a car thanks to a loan in the bank.

They are not rich , not poor , they just live and work long hours.

[DP25]

you also rant on about feudal societies, but manage to ignore the fact that economics are dictating thai social structure. Sure, there is a well defined aristocracy, but is the Thaksin family hi-so? And are the hi-so part of that aristocracy?

Originally, aristocrats and the hi-so were one and the same, but there is a massive nouveau riche culture here that has pushed those definitions to where the Thaksins actually rate.

Thaksin and clan are point in case on upward mobility.

Thaksin is descended from aristocracy on his mother's side where he descends from the Na Chiang Mai family, one of the oldest and richest families around who his family married in to. It's just a fairy tale he tries to spin to claim he is some self made middle class man, he was born in to wealth and power and important family connections. His great grandfather was self made however, enough that his clan could marry up socially

The term middle class in the US once meant a car in every garage and a chicken every pot, by those standards, the thai middle class is larger than you suspect.

That's generally what I consider to be middle class in Thailand too. Drive a car instead of a motorbike, have a home, can afford basic consumer goods like computers and stuff. Which would start around 20k although depends your spending patterns and where you live and if you have a spouse and how much they make. There are a lot of middle class people out there. Last year there were 800,000 new cars sold in Thailand, this year it's expected to break a million. Everyone seems to have smart phones these days, even the 7-11 clerks have them. A lot more Thais are finally able to afford these things.

Edited May 2, 2012 by DP25

[thequietman]

Class is an aura of confidence that is being sure without being cocky. Class has nothing to do with money. Class never runs scared. It is self-discipline and self-knowledge. It's the sure-footedness that comes with having proved you can meet life.

People on here seem to forget, there's money, and then there's class. The two are often separated.

Class is entirely intangible, and the way it affects things isn't subject to scientific analysis, and it's not supposed to be real but it's pervasive and powerful all the same.

A class system is something you use to discriminate someone who looks like you, nothing more. So remember......................

All human beings have class systems. It can be based on a different thing in a different country, but the thing about breeding is, you can't buy it. You can't buy class.

Maybe try reading this about the class system in Thailand.

http://countrystudie...thailand/52.htm

Edited May 2, 2012 by thequietman