Pheu Thai Calls For Probe On New BTS Skytrain Deal

[webfact]

SKYTRAIN

Pheu Thai calls for probe on new BTS deal

Piyanuch Thamnukasetchai,

Praphasri Osathanon,

Thanatpong Kongsai

The Nation

House panel to be asked to scrutinise BTSC's latest 30-year deal with BMA

BANGKOK: -- The Pheu Thai Party will ask a House committee to look into the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration's (BMA) questionable decision to award huge contracts to the current operator of the BTS system.

"I will raise the issue with the committee on Monday," the party's deputy spokesman and Maha Sarakham MP Yutthapong Jarassathien said yesterday.

The Demo-crat-led BMA has landed in hot water after its investment arm, Krungthep Thanakhom (KT), awarded a 30-year operating and maintenance contract for the two new routes - On Nut-Bearing and Taksin-Bang Wa - to Bangkok Transit System Co (BTSC).

BTSC extended its contract for the original route, meant to expire in 2029, by another 13 years. Hence, both contracts will expire at the same time - 30 years from May 8 this year.

"KT is clearly a subsidiary of the BMA, and the contracts it has made or will make should be subject to the Private-Public Joint Venture Act," he said.

Yutthapong also challenged Bangkok Governor Sukhumbhand Paribatra to engage in a televised debate over the issue with him.

Meanwhile, Department of Special Investigation (DSI) chief Tarit Pengdith revealed that he had already put together an investigation team to gather evidence related to the case.

"We will later decide if the alleged irregularities should be considered a special case and come under the jurisdiction of the DSI," he said.

Pheu Thai's Bangkok MP Wicharn Meen-chainant said some KT executives were related to high-profile politicians. "Some are going to benefit from the contracts at the expense of Bangkok residents," he warned.

Meanwhile, a BMA executive hit back at the Pheu Thai-led government saying that some prominent politicians had pocketed 10-per-cent commission from the rail-based projects handled by the government.

"In other words, they have pocketed some Bt40 billion to Bt50 billion," the executive said on condition of anonymity.

-- The Nation 2012-05-12

[Unkomoncents]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

[rkidlad]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

[animatic]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Edited May 12, 2012 by animatic

[AjarnPasa]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I don't think he is being unclear, or unreasonable. He points out that corruption is a business model, and that Thailand has functioned under it for centuries. What he also says is that other countries don't use at as their preferred business model because they feel, based on their cultural norms, that it is not a very good model.

So if Thailand wishes to be taken seriously and to play any significant role in regional or global economics then it needs to reassess whether it wants to retain the corruption model.

Personally I think Thailand becomes less relevant daily as a regional player because it chooses to be corrupt, and therefore stays still while others move away with the way they do business. But if Thailand doesn't care about that then that's up to it.

[rkidlad]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I don't think he is being unclear, or unreasonable. He points out that corruption is a business model, and that Thailand has functioned under it for centuries. What he also says is that other countries don't use at as their preferred business model because they feel, based on their cultural norms, that it is not a very good model.

So if Thailand wishes to be taken seriously and to play any significant role in regional or global economics then it needs to reassess whether it wants to retain the corruption model.

Personally I think Thailand becomes less relevant daily as a regional player because it chooses to be corrupt, and therefore stays still while others move away with the way they do business. But if Thailand doesn't care about that then that's up to it.

Oh, I see. The reason Thailand is developing and will be developing for the foreseeable future is because of corruption. And other countries don't use corruption as a business model because it's perceived as immoral. Not because it's backwards. That's PC gone mad.

I've learnt two things here; corruption is immoral (Western conjecture?), and Thailand is developing because of corruption.

No need for Sherlock Holmes then. Just someone who can write in layman's terms. Even if it is drivel.

Edited May 12, 2012 by rkidlad

[mikebell]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I don't think he is being unclear, or unreasonable. He points out that corruption is a business model, and that Thailand has functioned under it for centuries. What he also says is that other countries don't use at as their preferred business model because they feel, based on their cultural norms, that it is not a very good model.

So if Thailand wishes to be taken seriously and to play any significant role in regional or global economics then it needs to reassess whether it wants to retain the corruption model.

Personally I think Thailand becomes less relevant daily as a regional player because it chooses to be corrupt, and therefore stays still while others move away with the way they do business. But if Thailand doesn't care about that then that's up to it.

Oh, I see. The reason Thailand is developing and will be developing for the foreseeable future is because of corruption. And other countries don't use corruption as a business model because it's perceived as immoral. Not because it's backwards. That's PC gone mad.

I've learnt two things here; corruption is immoral (Western conjecture?), and Thailand is developing because of corruption.

No need for Sherlock Holmes then. Just someone who can write in layman's terms. Even if it is drivel.

I do love a good row. My tuppennyworth: 'Thailand's economic growth projected at 5.5% this year' - if corruption doesn't work; if UK/Europe/US have stamped out corruption, why are their economies stagnant?

[rkidlad]

Who said they stamped out corruption? Reduced corruption and were clever about how they got their own societies to define corruption, sure.

A projected growth of 5.5%? I stand corrected - corruption does work! (for some).

[LTGTR]

It's a way of life-deal with it! It's not a problem-it is interwoven and will NEVER change.

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

[hellodolly]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I liked his point about Burma Lao Cambodia and Viet Nam having less graft and more law and order. He could be right about law and order because if there is no law there is no problem.

[hellodolly]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I don't think he is being unclear, or unreasonable. He points out that corruption is a business model, and that Thailand has functioned under it for centuries. What he also says is that other countries don't use at as their preferred business model because they feel, based on their cultural norms, that it is not a very good model.

So if Thailand wishes to be taken seriously and to play any significant role in regional or global economics then it needs to reassess whether it wants to retain the corruption model.

Personally I think Thailand becomes less relevant daily as a regional player because it chooses to be corrupt, and therefore stays still while others move away with the way they do business. But if Thailand doesn't care about that then that's up to it.

]

No one leaves Thailand because of corruption. They leave because the cost of labor is getting to high . Corruption is in all countries there is no running from that. Now other countries can wave the no flood in the face of big business and it will be taken very serious. Thailand talks big but action is not on there agenda. They will do like all the previous governments talk big and let it fade away. And Big Business in other countries looking to do more business in Thailand will be taking that into consideration.

[phiphidon]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

[rkidlad]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

Criminals investigating criminals? Can you see the irony? Corruption is in Thailand and that is a fact. Do you really think anyone is investigating anyone here with any real integrity?

[phiphidon]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

Criminals investigating criminals? Can you see the irony? Corruption is in Thailand and that is a fact. Do you really think anyone is investigating anyone here with any real integrity?

Do you not think that using the NACC is a start. For example the state owned CAT put pressure on the the NACC to not investigate their 3G contract with TRUE. This was ignored and the the contract was ruled illegal

http://www.icacnews....-on-3g-illegal/

The government has also ratified the UN Convention against Corruption

Thailand's ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) is further evidence the Kingdom intends to ramp up its anti-corruption measures in a bid to facilitate the prosecution of offenders and increase transparency in its public procurement process............

........................One significant amendment has been to allow the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC), one of the country's anti-corruption agencies, to set up conditions under which contractors of large public projects must provide detailed income and expenditure accounts, and submit such information to the Department of Revenue for checking, thereby raising the transparency levels of what had previously been opaque procurement contracts.

http://www.mondaq.co...urement Process

You can remain cynical, let's face that's an easy and popular stance on this forum, or you can accept that they are at least trying to do something about it which is more than the previous government did (and seeing the makeup of their coalition, the need to keep the military sweet and the involvement of Suthep as Deputy PM you can see why they didn't exactly bust a gut over fighting corruption).

[AjarnPasa]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I don't think he is being unclear, or unreasonable. He points out that corruption is a business model, and that Thailand has functioned under it for centuries. What he also says is that other countries don't use at as their preferred business model because they feel, based on their cultural norms, that it is not a very good model.

So if Thailand wishes to be taken seriously and to play any significant role in regional or global economics then it needs to reassess whether it wants to retain the corruption model.

Personally I think Thailand becomes less relevant daily as a regional player because it chooses to be corrupt, and therefore stays still while others move away with the way they do business. But if Thailand doesn't care about that then that's up to it.

Oh, I see. The reason Thailand is developing and will be developing for the foreseeable future is because of corruption. And other countries don't use corruption as a business model because it's perceived as immoral. Not because it's backwards. That's PC gone mad.

I've learnt two things here; corruption is immoral (Western conjecture?), and Thailand is developing because of corruption.

No need for Sherlock Holmes then. Just someone who can write in layman's terms. Even if it is drivel.

You've completely missed the point.

Nowhere do either of us say that Thailand is developing. Nowhere do either of us say that it is moral (for a given value of moral). In fact, in my case, I state precisely the opposite when I say that I believe that Thailand becomes less relevant daily because it choses to enable corrupt practice. The corrupt model is counter productive if Thailand wants to be a regional player. However it still 'works' in Thailand at a local level. Is is just? No. Is it fair? No. Does it drive the country forward? No. Can Thailand exist in a ridiculous and protectionist dysfunctional way while engaging in corruption? Yes. Does it suck from my western point of view? Yes!

If you wish to wage a campaign of anti corruption in Thailand then more power to your elbow. I salute you. But when only 14% of respondents to that recent Suan Dusit poll say they are bothered by corruption then clearly, from a domestic point of view you won't be finding much support.

Edited May 12, 2012 by AjarnPasa

[AZBill]

And Thailand wonders why its not a player on a global scale at any level and garners no respect from developed and civilized nations! Nobody wants to deal with these petty little crooks they call PMs and MPs. The only time Thailand enjoys the illusion of respect is when they pretend to be something in their own movies!

[airconsult]

I'm amazed by the moral reaction so far.

Of course, this being the home I love - I fully expect that some palms were greased in order for this to be completed so quickly, but certainly one of the major reasons for it is pretty clear.

I believe the original 30 year contract specified (in a very poorly drafted way - but that happens everywhere) that the maximum fare should be 40 thb. And left no provisions for changing that.

Now - picture yourself as BTS - you bid and won a contract to operate a rail line with a maximum length from Moe Chit to On Nut with a max fare of 40thb - then the government goes and builds an extension all the way to Bearing, and begins to extend the other end as well. I would personally be a little annoyed by that. It would increase my cost of maintenance and staff, and increase my revenue by a smaller percentage. In reality the max fare should have been changed to 55thb, perhaps 60.

That's probably why there has been a sudden termination and resigning - the original agreement was poorly drafted, and either BMA had to pay out BTS for 13 more years, or modify and re-sign. The extension for an extra number of years may well be a consideration for past damage (since the extension opened) and appreciation that BTS needed the security to fund the trains for the extensions.

Doesn't mean they complied with the law - the public/private partnership laws are very complex, but understandable.

Cheers

[hellodolly]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Criminals investigating criminals? Can you see the irony? Corruption is in Thailand and that is a fact. Do you really think anyone is investigating anyone here with any real integrity?

Do you not think that using the NACC is a start. For example the state owned CAT put pressure on the the NACC to not investigate their 3G contract with TRUE. This was ignored and the the contract was ruled illegal

http://www.icacnews....-on-3g-illegal/

The government has also ratified the UN Convention against Corruption

Thailand's ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) is further evidence the Kingdom intends to ramp up its anti-corruption measures in a bid to facilitate the prosecution of offenders and increase transparency in its public procurement process............

........................One significant amendment has been to allow the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC), one of the country's anti-corruption agencies, to set up conditions under which contractors of large public projects must provide detailed income and expenditure accounts, and submit such information to the Department of Revenue for checking, thereby raising the transparency levels of what had previously been opaque procurement contracts.

http://www.mondaq.co...urement Process

You can remain cynical, let's face that's an easy and popular stance on this forum, or you can accept that they are at least trying to do something about it which is more than the previous government did (and seeing the makeup of their coalition, the need to keep the military sweet and the involvement of Suthep as Deputy PM you can see why they didn't exactly bust a gut over fighting corruption).

You are right they did indeed rule the deal with True and CAT was illegal.

Look for a deal soon with AIS

[airconsult]

Criminals investigating criminals? Can you see the irony? Corruption is in Thailand and that is a fact. Do you really think anyone is investigating anyone here with any real integrity?

Do you not think that using the NACC is a start. For example the state owned CAT put pressure on the the NACC to not investigate their 3G contract with TRUE. This was ignored and the the contract was ruled illegal

http://www.icacnews....-on-3g-illegal/

The government has also ratified the UN Convention against Corruption

Thailand's ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) is further evidence the Kingdom intends to ramp up its anti-corruption measures in a bid to facilitate the prosecution of offenders and increase transparency in its public procurement process............

........................One significant amendment has been to allow the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC), one of the country's anti-corruption agencies, to set up conditions under which contractors of large public projects must provide detailed income and expenditure accounts, and submit such information to the Department of Revenue for checking, thereby raising the transparency levels of what had previously been opaque procurement contracts.

http://www.mondaq.co...urement Process

You can remain cynical, let's face that's an easy and popular stance on this forum, or you can accept that they are at least trying to do something about it which is more than the previous government did (and seeing the makeup of their coalition, the need to keep the military sweet and the involvement of Suthep as Deputy PM you can see why they didn't exactly bust a gut over fighting corruption).

You are right they did indeed rule the deal with True and CAT was illegal.

Look for a deal soon with AIS

Hellodolly - I do enjoy reading your posts - but when oh when will you let go of the red/yellow hatred?

The True/CAT deal was dodgy. Look at the basics there - you have a state-owned entity (CAT) now in direct competition with private entities. My understanding is that is illegal in Thai Law. They will probably argue in court that it was for the benefit of the country as 3G licensing had stalled - ignoring the fact that it was a court case they launched that stalled the licensing.

What has this got to do with AIS, except it was a company once controlled by your favourite enemy, that you coddle to your breast as the symptom of all evil and you cannot let go? And what has this got to do with the BTS deal - nothing, absolutely nothing.

Take it easy chum, relax, look at the world and see it isn't all red/yellow specs. Then please continue - I do want to read your views.

Cheers

[animatic]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

Besides the fact you can't seem to tell commentary from actual accusation:

Why would things change from other Thaksin controlled governments?

Edited May 13, 2012 by animatic

[animatic]

quote name='animatic' timestamp='1336809364' post='5294249'

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

Criminals investigating criminals? Can you see the irony? Corruption is in Thailand and that is a fact. Do you really think anyone is investigating anyone here with any real integrity?

Do you not think that using the NACC is a start. For example the state owned CAT put pressure on the the NACC to not investigate their 3G contract with TRUE. This was ignored and the the contract was ruled illegal

http://www.icacnews....-on-3g-illegal/

The government has also ratified the UN Convention against Corruption

Thailand's ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) is further evidence the Kingdom intends to ramp up its anti-corruption measures in a bid to facilitate the prosecution of offenders and increase transparency in its public procurement process............

........................One significant amendment has been to allow the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC), one of the country's anti-corruption agencies, to set up conditions under which contractors of large public projects must provide detailed income and expenditure accounts, and submit such information to the Department of Revenue for checking, thereby raising the transparency levels of what had previously been opaque procurement contracts.

http://www.mondaq.co...urement Process

You can remain cynical, let's face that's an easy and popular stance on this forum, or you can accept that they are at least trying to do something about it which is more than the previous government did (and seeing the makeup of their coalition, the need to keep the military sweet and the involvement of Suthep as Deputy PM you can see why they didn't exactly bust a gut over fighting corruption).

Replace "cynical" with realistic.

[SomTumTiger]

How dare someone make a deal and not give PTP their cuts!!!!

INVESTIGATE NOW!!!!!!

Standard anti government response - if it involves the PTP it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask, please provide any proof of your accusation above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to push this deal through that makes it worth investigating?

Standard pro government response - if it involves the Democrats it must involve kick backs or corruption, never mind providing any proof of said corruption, just knee jerk response. Followed by the cheerleaders endorsements of same.

So I'll ask you, please provide any proof of your comments above. Could it be, difficult for your mind to assimilate I know, just maybe, that there is something curious about the rush to investigate this deal that makes it worth investigating?

Lol - you are just as "knee jerk" as the next guy. Pot, kettle, etc.

[Siam Simon]

Don has asked Animatic for some evidence to back up a serious allegation, and it's Don who has to provide proof? How does that work, then?Seems like "through the looking glass" debating to me. Best to just stick with the one-line cheerleading, SomTum .

[phiphidon]

Don has asked Animatic for some evidence to back up a serious allegation, and it's Don who has to provide proof? How does that work, then?Seems like "through the looking glass" debating to me. Best to just stick with the one-line cheerleading, SomTum .

This has happened a number of times on this forum. It appears that there is a unique rule that states the burden of proof is always to be provided by the one "side".

Edited May 13, 2012 by phiphidon

[gand]

Expand BTS and MRT and BAN air polluting internal combustion engines in the city.

[Unkomoncents]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

What would possibly put you in a position to 'chastise'. That's how business is done. Period. Moral, amoral, whatever. My point was that Thailand will be marginalized by what it sees as acceptable behavior. You are a shrill one, aren't you? "...prefix for amoral"?! Are you kidding? I would hope so, because if not, you couldn't possibly have a college degree. By the way, your little caveat at the end was appropriate.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[Unkomoncents]

Well, one of the most (only) efficient systems in Bangkok was sure to eventually attract the attention of Thailand's government. The BTS is a standard BOT mega-project in a developing country, and a successful one at that. Corruption in Thailand is an increasingly dire issue (I don't say problem because in Thailand, corruption is fundamentally how business is done, and the entire concept as a moral "negative" needs to be analyzed in amorally to be understood by Westerners who have been trained to think of it as automatically wrong). What Thais have failed to recognize is that this distorts economics, society, politics, everything. It cannot be perpetuated indefinitely without protracting Thailand's development indefinitely. Especially as other Southeast Asian countries show a greater predilection for law, order, and stability. Thailand will simply fail to attract those with a regional or global focus as opposed to a local one.

Come again? Are you being deliberately ambiguous in your post so to avoid chastising?

Corruption IS a problem in Thailand. It's a problem anywhere in the world and that's a fact. Will me or other non amoral 'Westerners' (excuse me, but I don't know the correct prefix for amoral - if there even is one) change this with our opinions? Probably not. It's domestic matter which is no business of mine. Maybe this is your point?

Again, your post is about as clear as mud. My opinion of course.

I liked his point about Burma Lao Cambodia and Viet Nam having less graft and more law and order. He could be right about law and order because if there is no law there is no problem.

I'm pretty sure I was talking about Singapore and Malaysia...but do interpret freely. Laos is a non-player. Vietnam has 3G and a larger share of foreign direct investment. Burma, well, that'll take time.

[planr]

With respect to the BTS deal, based what has been reported in the English press (and my knowledge of transport development here, including politics), the deal is very much illegal. It was likely pushed through so that the democrats could have at least one feather in their hat moving into the election for governor that is coming up. It does make sense to have the BTS be responsible for operating these lines in their entirety as it reduces maintenance and operations costs. If you have two operators, you need two sets of control systems, perhaps an additional depot, separate orders for new rolling stock, etc. The logistical and financial headache in dealing with such a scenario is likely very much worth trying to push the deal through.

The PT folks are absolutely correct and justified to be pursuing an investigation, however the level to which they are using the situation as a political issue is... well, politics and thus quite amusing, at least to me. Discredit the Democrat leadership, maybe get a few folks thrown in jail, etc, and the PT are more likely to win in upcoming elections.

As for the morality of corruption, for those of you Americans in this thread, bear in mind in the US that "lobbying" and "pork-barrel" projects are synonymous with corruption. We just call it something different. I would imagine it is not so different in other western countries, but I don't know specifics, so I won't state it as fact.

[hellodolly]

Does this mean the tax payers will have to pay corruption money twice?

[blacksuitdandruff]

corruption doesn't exist in the west like in thailand. and even if it did, those in the west with power/money wouldn't want to use it or even know how to use it very discreetly (*please note the sarcasm). if you are "well-educated," you'll believe this (minus the sarcasm of course). strange how western reality doesn't match these educational values though.

unfortunately, black money in all economies makes the wheels turn. how true this is is unknown for obvious reasons.

play by the corrupt rules and pay the price "morally".

don't play by the corrupt rules and pay the price financially.

choice is always yours.

why complain that your choice is not that of others?