Are Women The Strength Of Thailand?

[Gary A]

My wife is a farmer and laborers are hard to find out here in the boonies. She and five other ladies have a sort of co-op. They all share the work on each other's farms. When a male worker is found, that worker has to keep up with the co-op ladies or he quickly loses his job.

I think Thai boys are spoiled from birth. My wife has a nephew who is now about 17 years old. You will NEVER find a lazier boy than this one. He rides around on his new motorbike that his father bought him. I have never seen him do any work at all. When I mention that fact to my wife, she just shrugs her shoulders.

[kerryk]

My wife is a farmer and laborers are hard to find out here in the boonies. She and five other ladies have a sort of co-op. They all share the work on each other's farms. When a male worker is found, that worker has to keep up with the co-op ladies or he quickly loses his job.

I think Thai boys are spoiled from birth. My wife has a nephew who is now about 17 years old. You will NEVER find a lazier boy than this one. He rides around on his new motorbike that his father bought him. I have never seen him do any work at all. When I mention that fact to my wife, she just shrugs her shoulders.

I would agree with you and expand your language from Thai boys to Asian boys as I discovered years ago when I first visited a Japanese airport and watched young Japanese boy toddlers run amok. But apparently this works as the Asian economies are taking over current world business. I keep trying to figure out a way to get my Thai GF to treat me financially like her brother. He sits home and drinks whiskey and listens to jazz and she sends him money. Me she tells to take out the trash and pick up after myself.

[Heng]

My wife is a farmer and laborers are hard to find out here in the boonies. She and five other ladies have a sort of co-op. They all share the work on each other's farms. When a male worker is found, that worker has to keep up with the co-op ladies or he quickly loses his job.

I think Thai boys are spoiled from birth. My wife has a nephew who is now about 17 years old. You will NEVER find a lazier boy than this one. He rides around on his new motorbike that his father bought him. I have never seen him do any work at all. When I mention that fact to my wife, she just shrugs her shoulders.

I would agree with you and expand your language from Thai boys to Asian boys as I discovered years ago when I first visited a Japanese airport and watched young Japanese boy toddlers run amok. But apparently this works as the Asian economies are taking over current world business. I keep trying to figure out a way to get my Thai GF to treat me financially like her brother. He sits home and drinks whiskey and listens to jazz and she sends him money. Me she tells to take out the trash and pick up after myself.

When you're raised as a 'prince,' (and like all princes, they come in varying levels of ability/quality/etc.), when you can point and order, view things from both above and at ground level, it helps later in life when you have people to command and manage. Plenty of families successfully raise daughters in that role as well. It hardly makes them an example for any 'strength of Thailand awards' as they are brought up in the same school of thought and fill the same role as their successful male counterparts.

For 90 percent of the population however, there aren't too many synergies to be realized for men OR women. It's difficult to overcome generations of a lack of education and ambition (including a sabai sabai mai pen rai -no need to plan ahead- subculture that doesn't even hold it in high regard) and poor diet.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Heng

[BigJohnnyBKK]

One thing I really love about Thailand is the near-universal total lack of respect for work and career.

Family comes first by far, friends a close second. Comfort and ease, not worrying about tomorrow, enjoying the moment.

The cultural programming I grew up with sees this as "lazy" and "bad", valuing goal-oriented striving, improving yourself work work work above everything and most people end up unloved and alone.

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

But of course you have to live with the consequences of your choices.

Balance is the hardest thing.

[sirineou]

One thing I really love about Thailand is the near-universal total lack of respect for work and career.

Family comes first by far, friends a close second. Comfort and ease, not worrying about tomorrow, enjoying the moment.

The cultural programming I grew up with sees this as "lazy" and "bad", valuing goal-oriented striving, improving yourself work work work above everything and most people end up unloved and alone.

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

But of course you have to live with the consequences of your choices.

Balance is the hardest thing.

So true

[zzaa09]

One thing I really love about Thailand is the near-universal total lack of respect for work and career.

Family comes first by far, friends a close second. Comfort and ease, not worrying about tomorrow, enjoying the moment.

The cultural programming I grew up with sees this as "lazy" and "bad", valuing goal-oriented striving, improving yourself work work work above everything and most people end up unloved and alone.

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

But of course you have to live with the consequences of your choices.

Balance is the hardest thing.

So true

Seconded!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

So true

Seconded!

Of course the flip side of that coin is that if you do decide to devote your life to building a business that requires a conscientious self-directed creative work force, this isn't the place to do that, worth putting up with living in farang-land to avoid that frustration - a lot less risky there for so many other reasons as well.

[poanoi]

. Lady boys tell better jokes too and speak better English. Ask the teachers, lady boys are always willing to go the extra mile.

Yes, we have found out Edited May 15, 2012 by poanoi

[Heng]

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

Nifty motivational poster aside, there are PLENTY of folks who lay on their deathbeds wishing they had done more for their children, their spouses, and their families. These are the guys who are dying while knowing full well that their children's or grandchildren's college fund is vastly underfunded (if it even exists), that there is X left to pay on a mortgage and that they are the sole breadwinners so that probably won't end well, those who know they shouldn't have let their health and or life insurance policies lapse X years ago, etc.

[culicine]

Nice story ... thanks for the read.

I come from a family where my mother was considered a saint, and never worked a day in her life

Are you inferring that Thai woman work harder then woman of other Cultures?

Compared to western cultures they probably do - don't see many of the working the roads, sweeping leaves, painting houses, building bridges. My mum was shocked when she saw all this!

There's some pretty lazy men here for sure, but it seems to occur more among poorer families. In my last mooban, the women went out and worked, while many of the men stayed home and drank. One wife actually worked for carlesberg - lucky bastard . Among the professions Ive seen both hard wouking and not-so-hard working among both sexes.

[h90]

Of course women are the strength of Thailand. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a woman. I do see a lot of Thai women keeping the families together and working hard.

I saw very good hard working women

I saw very lazy, shitty women who just rip off their husband

I saw very good hard working men

I saw very lazy, shitty men, who just rip-off their wifes.

You have the good, the bad, the ugly no matter what sex, what race, what religion.

[sirineou]

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

Nifty motivational poster aside, there are PLENTY of folks who lay on their deathbeds wishing they had done more for their children, their spouses, and their families. These are the guys who are dying while knowing full well that their children's or grandchildren's college fund is vastly underfunded (if it even exists), that there is X left to pay on a mortgage and that they are the sole breadwinners so that probably won't end well, those who know they shouldn't have let their health and or life insurance policies lapse X years ago, etc.

And I bet most of them are western.

I spend most of my life being a control freak. insurances for everything, investments everywhere, , spinning my wheels.

Insuring for the future.5 years here, 10 years there,Then one day I looked in the mirror and an older man looked back at me.

<deleted>, What happened? what was wrong with that mirror?

There was nothing wrong with the mirror, what was wrong was with me, in getting my self worth from providing for others I had forgotten to provide for my self.

I thought to myself, if I was to die tomorrow, how would the world be affected, and the answer was, except for my Daughter, not at all,

So I gave it all up, and started spending more time with my daughter, sisters, and family I had not seen for a long time.

And we are all the happier for it

And when my time in this world is over, no one would remember me for the money, insurances, and cars, and expensive cloths ,

They will remember me for the times we had together.

Perhaps the Thais need to provide for the future more and perhaps we need to think of the future a little less.

as Bigjohnny said, "balance"

[Krupnik]

One thing though. Emotionally Thai women are very weak. They may do alot for their husband, clean and take care of the kids, while the Thai husband goes out and gets drunk and more importantly goes out with his mia noi. But it's OK, because the wife knows about the mia noi and she is OK with it. Apparently! It makes me sick. When she does go out with her husband, she sits there, pours his drink and waits to be spoken to before she'll speak.

Now I am a woman too, and it frustrates me! I have a Thai boyfriend, and I wouldn't put up with it! I wish these kind of women would grow some backbone and get shot of these type of guys instead of letting them use and walk all over her.

In this way Thai women are weak. But of course, it's only a percentage, I don't want to generalise. (Maybe this is for another thread, anyway.)

[Heng]

I think they've got their priorities straight, no one ever lay on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

Nifty motivational poster aside, there are PLENTY of folks who lay on their deathbeds wishing they had done more for their children, their spouses, and their families. These are the guys who are dying while knowing full well that their children's or grandchildren's college fund is vastly underfunded (if it even exists), that there is X left to pay on a mortgage and that they are the sole breadwinners so that probably won't end well, those who know they shouldn't have let their health and or life insurance policies lapse X years ago, etc.

And I bet most of them are western.

I spend most of my life being a control freak. insurances for everything, investments everywhere, , spinning my wheels.

Insuring for the future.5 years here, 10 years there,Then one day I looked in the mirror and an older man looked back at me.

<deleted>, What happened? what was wrong with that mirror?

There was nothing wrong with the mirror, what was wrong was with me, in getting my self worth from providing for others I had forgotten to provide for my self.

I thought to myself, if I was to die tomorrow, how would the world be affected, and the answer was, except for my Daughter, not at all,

So I gave it all up, and started spending more time with my daughter, sisters, and family I had not seen for a long time.

And we are all the happier for it

And when my time in this world is over, no one would remember me for the money, insurances, and cars, and expensive cloths ,

They will remember me for the times we had together.

Perhaps the Thais need to provide for the future more and perhaps we need to think of the future a little less.

as Bigjohnny said, "balance"

I would say there are a lot of folks from all over the place, both eastern and western that do not plan ahead. I've met plenty from all sorts of countries who were mortgaged to the hilt and hardly had any significant liquid or real estate assets at all. For me it's not a question of being remembered, nor is it an either/or type of decision. I've always tended to choose and take both. I like financial security, so I work a lot and don't carry a cent of debt. I like to spend time with my family, so I work from home or wherever we happen to be travelling.

It's all relative.

:-)

[Heng]

One thing though. Emotionally Thai women are very weak. They may do alot for their husband, clean and take care of the kids, while the Thai husband goes out and gets drunk and more importantly goes out with his mia noi. But it's OK, because the wife knows about the mia noi and she is OK with it. Apparently! It makes me sick. When she does go out with her husband, she sits there, pours his drink and waits to be spoken to before she'll speak.

Now I am a woman too, and it frustrates me! I have a Thai boyfriend, and I wouldn't put up with it! I wish these kind of women would grow some backbone and get shot of these type of guys instead of letting them use and walk all over her.

In this way Thai women are weak. But of course, it's only a percentage, I don't want to generalise. (Maybe this is for another thread, anyway.)

In those situations it's typically because the guy is still paying all the bills. The blind eye arrangement often ends when the bills don't get paid and the fridge isn't well stocked. In that aspect, it's hardly just a lack of emotional backbone, it's a lack of willingness to strike out on one's own and take care of one's self.

[NanLaew]

One thing though. Emotionally Thai women are very weak. They may do alot for their husband, clean and take care of the kids, while the Thai husband goes out and gets drunk and more importantly goes out with his mia noi. But it's OK, because the wife knows about the mia noi and she is OK with it. Apparently! It makes me sick. When she does go out with her husband, she sits there, pours his drink and waits to be spoken to before she'll speak.

Now I am a woman too, and it frustrates me! I have a Thai boyfriend, and I wouldn't put up with it! I wish these kind of women would grow some backbone and get shot of these type of guys instead of letting them use and walk all over her.

In this way Thai women are weak. But of course, it's only a percentage, I don't want to generalise. (Maybe this is for another thread, anyway.)

In those situations it's typically because the guy is still paying all the bills. The blind eye arrangement often ends when the bills don't get paid and the fridge isn't well stocked. In that aspect, it's hardly just a lack of emotional backbone, it's a lack of willingness to strike out on one's own and take care of one's self.

Like my sister-in-law! Married, one kid, Thai husband working down south sending money who comes home once or twice a year. Otherwise, she is happy to sit on her arse in her parents house. She's a fantastic cook, Thai and western and worked for a spell as a cook in Phuket. Every so often she opens a stall selling noodles or something but she gets bored quickly and after a few weeks it's back to watching telelvision and playing cards. The path of least resistance I reckon.

[NanLaew]

So true

Seconded!

Of course the flip side of that coin is that if you do decide to devote your life to building a business that requires a conscientious self-directed creative work force, this isn't the place to do that, worth putting up with living in farang-land to avoid that frustration - a lot less risky there for so many other reasons as well.

Goes along with my contention that the expat who comes here to work either realises what he is working with doesn't encourage a career path and moves on or, takes the 'path of least resistance' and acquiesces into the Thai sense of priority where work isn't the means to an end and just ticks over in an ever deepening pool of mediocrity.

[MrMuddle]

I'll ask the wife when she's finished concreting a path....after she's cooked my tea of course !

[farang000999]

Op said:

If the girl is willing to give up everything and screw her self for her family, what makes you think she will not also screw you for her family, when push comes to shove?

I don't think that these guys are smart obviously but this does not justify, nor rationalize the behavior of the man-eating mia farangs. The real story is that they are trapped in the cycle of violence/self destruction. They have more than likely been abused mentally and/or physically by their parents and/or ex/current Thai husband and are now in the industry dead set on passing on that pain to another, who is likely to be a naive farang who would have made a very decent husband. Perhaps it is out of a subconscious feeling of being worthless that they do not believe they deserve a caring husband? Ever wonder why prisoners, soliders and bar girls seem to all have tattoos? It's not a fashion statement. In conclusion, I do not believe this to be a strength but rather a weakness, really a tragedy.

Edited May 15, 2012 by farang000999

[David48]

Nice story ... thanks for the read.

I come from a family where my mother was considered a saint, and never worked a day in her life

Are you inferring that Thai woman work harder then woman of other Cultures?

<snip> Among the professions Ive seen both hard wouking and not-so-hard working among both sexes. (my bolding)

This last comment of yours I am in total agreence with.

What I have should have said so not as to appear overly negative was ...

that the argument presented by the OP is making a generalised statement based on the observation and recanted story of one woman and redirects that to a population of over 60 million people.

But in fairness, I am sure the OP, has seen his story played out many times, in different situations and simply used that one story to illustrate his point.

We all have different stories and different experiences.

Edited May 15, 2012 by David48

[sirineou]

What I have should have said so not as to appear overly negative was ...

that the argument presented by the OP is making a generalised statement based on the observation and recanted story of one woman and redirects that to a population of over 60 million people.

But in fairness, I am sure the OP, has seen his story played out many times, in different situations and simply used that one story to illustrate his point.

We all have different stories and different experiences.

Thank you David, Spot on

I often get frustrated by the level of responses in this and other Thai based forums, and then we have responses such as this , and bigjohnny, and others too many to mention, in this and so many other threads, containing wisdom, and common sense

when I read them.I often think, why did't I think to say that?

You know, we type something, using a different part of the brain than we do when we talk, and send it out there, and later we look at it and we think, "boy I should had said that differently, but now it is too late to take it back. So when we read peoples responses we need to take in to consideration the limitation of this type of communication, and cut the responded some slack before we think the worst and jump down their throat.

I guess David said it best when he said, "We all have different stories and different experiences. "

[BigJohnnyBKK]

One thing though. Emotionally Thai women are very weak. They may do alot for their husband, clean and take care of the kids, while the Thai husband goes out and gets drunk and more importantly goes out with his mia noi. But it's OK, because the wife knows about the mia noi and she is OK with it. Apparently! It makes me sick. When she does go out with her husband, she sits there, pours his drink and waits to be spoken to before she'll speak.

Now I am a woman too, and it frustrates me! I have a Thai boyfriend, and I wouldn't put up with it! I wish these kind of women would grow some backbone and get shot of these type of guys instead of letting them use and walk all over her.

In this way Thai women are weak. But of course, it's only a percentage, I don't want to generalise. (Maybe this is for another thread, anyway.)

I personally think that the traditional "til death do us part" monogamous marriage is too much to ask, in fact biologically impossible for many men. If a traditional (non-wage-earning) wife has to choose between long-term commitment and looking the other way, most choose the former, especially if the outside relationships are not serious and not too expensive.

I'm afraid you'll find in Thailand unless a man doesn't have high testosterone levels, if you tell him you're going to quit the relationship if he fools around, he'll either lie to you or take you up on that offer when it suits him.

The ideal situation from my POV is that the other partner explicitly agree to this kind of open arrangement, eminently sensible in that it allows for complete openness and honesty, which IMO opinion is critical to the health of any sort of genuine relationship.

And of course both partners should be free to fool around on equal terms.

[thaibeachlovers]

Yes.

[TommoPhysicist]

While Thai women may be the strength of Thailand, they are my weakness.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[sirineou]

One thing though. Emotionally Thai women are very weak. They may do alot for their husband, clean and take care of the kids, while the Thai husband goes out and gets drunk and more importantly goes out with his mia noi. But it's OK, because the wife knows about the mia noi and she is OK with it. Apparently! It makes me sick. When she does go out with her husband, she sits there, pours his drink and waits to be spoken to before she'll speak.

Now I am a woman too, and it frustrates me! I have a Thai boyfriend, and I wouldn't put up with it! I wish these kind of women would grow some backbone and get shot of these type of guys instead of letting them use and walk all over her.

In this way Thai women are weak. But of course, it's only a percentage, I don't want to generalise. (Maybe this is for another thread, anyway.)

I personally think that the traditional "til death do us part" monogamous marriage is too much to ask, in fact biologically impossible for many men. If a traditional (non-wage-earning) wife has to choose between long-term commitment and looking the other way, most choose the former, especially if the outside relationships are not serious and not too expensive.

I guess different cultures have different levels of tolerance toward extramarital relationships. The culture I come from is not very tolerant in that respect, and I bring that baggage to the discussion, Realizing that I try not to be judgmental.

But looking at it from an academic point of view, for any relationship to be successful the economics of that relationship, and when I talk about economics I dot mean money, but the give and take,

The economics must balance.

In my uneducated in the subject opinion,,, in Thailand, I don’t think, in a very large part, they do.

My opinion is based on what I see in my limited circle of family and friends in Thailand and it might not be representative of the population in whole.

From all the family and friend members that I know, I don’t know any Thai woman that are having any extramarital affairs, but I know of plenty of man, I know of man that have taken all the savings out of the bank, to pay for the GF.

Most of the woman I know work very hard, cant say the same for all of the man

I don’t know of any woman that drink to excess, cant say the same about the man.

I am not saying all that to be critical toward Thai man, just to illustrate that the economics of the Thai relationships don’t balance in my opinion,

Now I might be missing something, maybe Thai man have some strong point that I don’t know about, that makes up for these sort comings, maybe they are great lovers, or maybe something else,I dont know, but looking at it from my perspective, it looks like the women are contributing a lot more.

And personally I dont think that it is too much to ask men to be faithful, when they enter a marital relationship man make certain promises, and based on these promises the woman makes a decision to either marry that man or to not. To renege on these promises I don’t think is very admirable, to say the least.

I understand the inherent biological promiscuity of man, but man are not simply animals, I hope.

Edited May 16, 2012 by sirineou

[TommoPhysicist]

And personally I dont think that it is too much to ask men to be faithful, when they enter a marital relationship man make certain promises, and based on these promises the woman makes a decision to either marry that man or to not. To renege on these promises I don’t think is very admirable, to say the least.

Basic error here old boy, different wedding vows in Thailand, not Christian based.

Thai wedding vow, he vows to protect, she vows to serve.

That's it, no vows about fidelity or loyalty AT ALL.

The womans PARENTS make a decision for her to marry that Thai man or not, often based on the purchase price he offered them. The mans PARENTS also get power of veto on the marriage.

What 'certain promises' did you think Thai people make when they get married then??

(PS: Have you ever been to Thailand?, or spoken to Thai people?)

Edited May 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[sirineou]

And personally I dont think that it is too much to ask men to be faithful, when they enter a marital relationship man make certain promises, and based on these promises the woman makes a decision to either marry that man or to not. To renege on these promises I don’t think is very admirable, to say the least.

Basic error here old boy, different wedding vows in Thailand, not Christian based.

Thai wedding vow, he vows to protect, she vows to serve.

That's it, no vows about fidelity or loyalty AT ALL.

The womans PARENTS make a decision for her to marry that Thai man or not, often based on the purchase price he offered them. The mans PARENTS also get power of veto on the marriage.

What 'certain promises' did you think Thai people make when they get married then??

(PS: Have you ever been to Thailand?, or spoken to Thai people?)

Have being maried to a wonderfull Thai lady for over 3 years,and have dated for same length of time,and living part of the year in KKC

.while here I have never spoken to a "farang" for longer than 10 minutes, I associate with Thais exclusively.

Did not have a budhist wedding yet.Not sure I will ever do.

Most of the people I know , entered in to marage through a relationship, and not theough parental erangements.You might have purchased you wife, I asure you I did not mine.nor do I know any one that has. That might have being the case a long time ago, but I dont think is the case now.

Edited May 16, 2012 by sirineou

[TommoPhysicist]

And personally I dont think that it is too much to ask men to be faithful, when they enter a marital relationship man make certain promises, and based on these promises the woman makes a decision to either marry that man or to not. To renege on these promises I don’t think is very admirable, to say the least.

Basic error here old boy, different wedding vows in Thailand, not Christian based.

Thai wedding vow, he vows to protect, she vows to serve.

That's it, no vows about fidelity or loyalty AT ALL.

The womans PARENTS make a decision for her to marry that Thai man or not, often based on the purchase price he offered them. The mans PARENTS also get power of veto on the marriage.

What 'certain promises' did you think Thai people make when they get married then??

(PS: Have you ever been to Thailand?, or spoken to Thai people?)

Have being maried to a wonderfull Thai lady for over 3 years,and living part of the year in KKC.while here I have never spoken to a "farang" for longerthan 10 minutes. Did not have a budhist wedding yet.Not sure I will ever do.

Most of the people I know , entered in to marage through a relationship, and not theough parental erangements.You might have purchased you wife, I asure you I did not mine.nor do I know any one that has. That might have being the case a long time ago, but I dont think is the case now.

Everyone in my village did purchase and parental veto.

But you have avoided answering what vows you think Thais make?

I actually talk to Thai monks, if you don't believe me when I say the vows are protect and serve, feel free to chat to any monk. I assume you speak Thai well enough as you have not talked to 'white man' for three years.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[sirineou]

And personally I dont think that it is too much to ask men to be faithful, when they enter a marital relationship man make certain promises, and based on these promises the woman makes a decision to either marry that man or to not. To renege on these promises I don’t think is very admirable, to say the least.

Basic error here old boy, different wedding vows in Thailand, not Christian based.

Thai wedding vow, he vows to protect, she vows to serve.

That's it, no vows about fidelity or loyalty AT ALL.

The womans PARENTS make a decision for her to marry that Thai man or not, often based on the purchase price he offered them. The mans PARENTS also get power of veto on the marriage.

What 'certain promises' did you think Thai people make when they get married then??

(PS: Have you ever been to Thailand?, or spoken to Thai people?)

Have being maried to a wonderfull Thai lady for over 3 years,and living part of the year in KKC.while here I have never spoken to a "farang" for longerthan 10 minutes. Did not have a budhist wedding yet.Not sure I will ever do.

Most of the people I know , entered in to marage through a relationship, and not theough parental erangements.You might have purchased you wife, I asure you I did not mine.nor do I know any one that has. That might have being the case a long time ago, but I dont think is the case now.

Everyone in my village did purchase and parental veto.

But you have avoided answering what vows you think Thais make?

I actually talk to Thai monks, if you don't believe me when I say the vows are protect and serve, feel free to chat to any monk. I assume you speak Thai well enough as you have not talked to 'white man' for three years.

A, I never said they take any vows, I said they make promises , these promises ocure during the dating proses, I dont think, any one tells his GF, marry me and I will cheat in you.

B , I said live here part of the time,

C. speek some Thai, wife speeks excellent English, between the two of as, we make due.

Edited May 16, 2012 by sirineou

[TommoPhysicist]

A, I never said they take any vows, I said they make promises , these promises ocure during the dating proses, I dont think, any one tells his GF, marry me and I will cheat in you.

B , I said live here part of the time,

C. speek some Thai, wife speeks excellent English, between the two of as, we make due.

Just as I thought!

You swallowed a load of balony from the misses about Thai men being 'very bad men', while having no real experience of Thailand first hand. Every white guy is told that same story, some believe it.

Promises made during the dating process, give me a break.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist