Phi Phi Poisonings: Autopsy Results On Canadian Sisters ‘Inconclusive’

[smedly]

There may be health laws related to embalming and flights or specifically bringing a body into another country but if not, this would have had to be requested from the Canadian Embassy as it would be completely against protocol.

There is really no way they could have stopped the two men from leaving as they left the same day the bodies were discovered and no matter what one might thing should be done, investigations just don't happen this quickly anywhere in a death with no signs of foul play and where a video needs to be viewed and the people in the video identified.

There was never any mention of the police attributing the cause of death to ibuprofen regardless of how many people want to think this because it was stated there were numerous over the counter drugs in the room including ibuprofen which is not uncommon to cause stomach bleeding (especially when drinking). Note there was was blood in their vomit and might be of interest because the blood could be a red herring in terms of death. The ibuprofen and OTC drugs could have also been an indication that they may have been suffering symptoms earlier but the whole thing may have simply been brought up because a reporter asked if drugs were found in the room and which type and if they could be related. Certainly there was NEVER any claim or even hint by police this was the cause of death and the most earliest reports suspected some kind of toxin or poisoning.

The room was gone over by numerous crime and health agencies and was obviously sealed off as there were reports of numerous agencies examining the room and its contents for days after. There has been absolutely no reports of if the room has been reopened of if and when it will be or if anything in the room is left and wasn't taken away by investigators.

The preliminary autopsy performed was delayed because the Canadian Embassy requested it be brought to a specific hospital.

The family in Canada has asked that medical information be kept confidential.

It is usual for police to release specific details about an ongoing investigation.

There has been absolutely nothing that can be pointed at that has been done by police that would indicate any concern of not letting facts come out because of fear it will hurt tourism. Two deaths in a hotel room, isn't good for tourism no matter how you play it but the worst possible way to play it is by not knowing especially given the deaths up North. According to many here, it could have easily been wrapped up by saying it was murder and grabbing some patsy off the street and beat him into confession then case closed and everybody moves on.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the police, medical examiner and various agencies involved have conspired together to cover anything up or form some conspiracy to cover anything up.

There is absolutely nothing unusual about not having autopsy results in a 2 weeks in a case that involves poison or drugs. The Coroner in Canada already has stated it may be months before they release a report which actually may not be able to tell the cause of death. Even in the highest of profile cases in the west such as Michael Jackson and Nicole Smith where drugs were suspected and there was a good idea of the drugs taken, it took months for the conclusive autopsy reports and cause of death.

Thailand is not as rich or advanced as places like Canada and the US or UK and it is idiotic to believe things can always happen as fast or as good as these places but just as idiotic to believe that the professionals in the medical examiners office the various health groups investigating this don't know what they are doing. Even in the deaths up North with soooo many international medical teams and organization involved, there wasn't a conclusive cause of death determined that tied the victims together.

It is actually not unheard of for exact cause of death every to be known. In fact, it is not even uncommon for causes of deaths to have unknown origins. Many causes of death are from heart failures or dehydration and other things without the cause of these problems being known. They almost certainly know what killed these girls just like they know what killed the people in Chiang Mai but what attributed or is to be blamed for these causes. Not much different than thinking about somebody dying from cancer ... sometimes they know what caused the cancer and sometimes they don't.

Yes, very freaky to have these hotel deaths occur after the mystery deaths up North but lets please try to stop some of the crazy assumptions and conspiracy theories and the faux superiority that we know more than the experts here.

May I just point out that this post and many others belonging to you are full of crazy assumptions, you are no better than those you are chastising so may I suggest you just leave it oh mighty one.

may I also add there is another thread related to these deaths full of theories - drug/poison theories discussions debates - can we please not have the same again here

Right now we are waiting for autosy results from canada and if I may add - an interview with the two men that were last to see them alive which in my opinion is of the utmost importance

leave it at that

Edited June 29, 2012 by smedly

[Nisa]

There may be health laws related to embalming and flights or specifically bringing a body into another country but if not, this would have had to be requested from the Canadian Embassy as it would be completely against protocol.

There is really no way they could have stopped the two men from leaving as they left the same day the bodies were discovered and no matter what one might thing should be done, investigations just don't happen this quickly anywhere in a death with no signs of foul play and where a video needs to be viewed and the people in the video identified.

There was never any mention of the police attributing the cause of death to ibuprofen regardless of how many people want to think this because it was stated there were numerous over the counter drugs in the room including ibuprofen which is not uncommon to cause stomach bleeding (especially when drinking). Note there was was blood in their vomit and might be of interest because the blood could be a red herring in terms of death. The ibuprofen and OTC drugs could have also been an indication that they may have been suffering symptoms earlier but the whole thing may have simply been brought up because a reporter asked if drugs were found in the room and which type and if they could be related. Certainly there was NEVER any claim or even hint by police this was the cause of death and the most earliest reports suspected some kind of toxin or poisoning.

The room was gone over by numerous crime and health agencies and was obviously sealed off as there were reports of numerous agencies examining the room and its contents for days after. There has been absolutely no reports of if the room has been reopened of if and when it will be or if anything in the room is left and wasn't taken away by investigators.

The preliminary autopsy performed was delayed because the Canadian Embassy requested it be brought to a specific hospital.

The family in Canada has asked that medical information be kept confidential.

It is usual for police to release specific details about an ongoing investigation.

There has been absolutely nothing that can be pointed at that has been done by police that would indicate any concern of not letting facts come out because of fear it will hurt tourism. Two deaths in a hotel room, isn't good for tourism no matter how you play it but the worst possible way to play it is by not knowing especially given the deaths up North. According to many here, it could have easily been wrapped up by saying it was murder and grabbing some patsy off the street and beat him into confession then case closed and everybody moves on.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the police, medical examiner and various agencies involved have conspired together to cover anything up or form some conspiracy to cover anything up.

There is absolutely nothing unusual about not having autopsy results in a 2 weeks in a case that involves poison or drugs. The Coroner in Canada already has stated it may be months before they release a report which actually may not be able to tell the cause of death. Even in the highest of profile cases in the west such as Michael Jackson and Nicole Smith where drugs were suspected and there was a good idea of the drugs taken, it took months for the conclusive autopsy reports and cause of death.

Thailand is not as rich or advanced as places like Canada and the US or UK and it is idiotic to believe things can always happen as fast or as good as these places but just as idiotic to believe that the professionals in the medical examiners office the various health groups investigating this don't know what they are doing. Even in the deaths up North with soooo many international medical teams and organization involved, there wasn't a conclusive cause of death determined that tied the victims together.

It is actually not unheard of for exact cause of death every to be known. In fact, it is not even uncommon for causes of deaths to have unknown origins. Many causes of death are from heart failures or dehydration and other things without the cause of these problems being known. They almost certainly know what killed these girls just like they know what killed the people in Chiang Mai but what attributed or is to be blamed for these causes. Not much different than thinking about somebody dying from cancer ... sometimes they know what caused the cancer and sometimes they don't.

Yes, very freaky to have these hotel deaths occur after the mystery deaths up North but lets please try to stop some of the crazy assumptions and conspiracy theories and the faux superiority that we know more than the experts here.

May I just point out that this post and many others belonging to you are full of crazy assumptions, you are no better than those you are chastising so may I suggest you just leave it oh mighty one.

What are all the crazy assumptions listed in the above post? Are facts you don't like considered crazy assumptions?

[Nisa]

I too have wondered where this embalming story came from. I saw that a TV member mentioned it on another thread but I never saw any sort of official news report stating that the bodies were embalmed

It is an IATA regulation and therefore a reasonable assumption that the corpses could not have been flown home otherwise. "IATA (a worldwide airline trade association) rules state that if moved from one country to another, a body should have an embalming certificate." http://www.guardian....-finance-health

Ok, it is reasonable to assume this is the case, but, does anyone know this for certain.

Ok well I am not sure of the regulations now in 2012 but when I was living in Hong Kong in 1988 a colleague of mine died in a plane crash in Bangalore India at the young age of 24 and the body had to be embalmed in order for it to be brought back to the UK... unfortunately the embalming was not done properly and some liquid leaked on the way and at the transit point wherever it was ( don't remember where sorry ) the coffin / body was held back and had to be re embalmed and resealed ... those were the airline rules at the time ... don't know if they are the same now but that was what it was then..........

One thing that is very safe to assume is that it would not be up to the Thais to make this decision and arrangement. It would have to start with the embassy requesting the Thais not embalm and then dealing with the airlines and then dealing with any issues related to bringing a corpse into Canada and possibly out of Thailand. One thing that is fairly certain is an unembarrassed corpse would be classified as hazardous material and there are procedures for shipping bio hazardous material. But again, regardless of laws or airline rules, this would be 100% responsibility of the Canadian side of the equation to request this and there is absolutely no indication they did but I doubt anyone is going to be screaming how the Canadians screwed up.

Edit: The bodies were embalmed. The Canadian Coroner had answered a question or something related to if this would cause issues. Not sure if it was posted on TV but was in one of the news stories.

Found link: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/autopsies-to-be-performed-on-quebec-sisters-who-died-mysteriously-in-thailand-160073425.html?device=mobile&utm_source=wfp&utm_medium=nextArticleDirect&utm_campaign=/canada

Edited June 29, 2012 by Nisa

[katana]

...There has been absolutely nothing that can be pointed at that has been done by police that would indicate any concern of not letting facts come out because of fear it will hurt tourism. Two deaths in a hotel room, isn't good for tourism no matter how you play it but the worst possible way to play it is by not knowing especially given the deaths up North. According to many here, it could have easily been wrapped up by saying it was murder and grabbing some patsy off the street and beat him into confession then case closed and everybody moves on.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the police, medical examiner and various agencies involved have conspired together to cover anything up or form some conspiracy to cover anything up....

There was a little speculation early on from a Thai reporter that things were being covered up:

At the end of the Manager article it adds finishes with:

Journalists added that the death of the two Canadian girls is similar to the death of two American tourists killed here but in a different room 3 years ago. At that time the local police suppressed the news until relatives kicked up a fuss in the foreign press and the story leaked out. In this case again influential people in Krabi are trying to suppress the news but it's leaked out.

http://www.manager.c...D=9550000073891 (16/06/12)

[Nisa]

...There has been absolutely nothing that can be pointed at that has been done by police that would indicate any concern of not letting facts come out because of fear it will hurt tourism. Two deaths in a hotel room, isn't good for tourism no matter how you play it but the worst possible way to play it is by not knowing especially given the deaths up North. According to many here, it could have easily been wrapped up by saying it was murder and grabbing some patsy off the street and beat him into confession then case closed and everybody moves on.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the police, medical examiner and various agencies involved have conspired together to cover anything up or form some conspiracy to cover anything up....

There was a little speculation early on from a Thai reporter that things were being covered up:

At the end of the Manager article it adds finishes with:

Journalists added that the death of the two Canadian girls is similar to the death of two American tourists killed here but in a different room 3 years ago. At that time the local police suppressed the news until relatives kicked up a fuss in the foreign press and the story leaked out. In this case again influential people in Krabi are trying to suppress the news but it's leaked out.

http://www.manager.c...D=9550000073891 (16/06/12)

Thanks for sharing but I am not versed well enough in Thai to be confident of translations in this article but am curious what American tourists were found dead 3-years ago in this article that was published within 24 hours of the sister's bodies being discovered? I thought it was an (singular) American and a Norwegian.

If there was an attempt to cover up these sisters murders it must have been incredibly short lived because they had been showing video and pictures of deceased still on their beds. I have to wonder, where they going to hide or destroy the bodies and get rid of all witnesses (including all the foreigners at the hotel who would see the bodies being removed) and any paper trails the girls left so there wouldn't be any scandal from two Canadian sisters disappearing on Phi Phi. Or maybe these Krabi folks are so influential they thought they could control the news outside Thailand too when word of the deaths got back to the family and embassy.

And I wonder how police suppressed the news of the deaths 3-years ago if it was the family and international press were the ones who got them to suppress the news of the deaths ... clearly the news was already out.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Nisa

[Maestro]

...Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts.

Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html

I've looked at the French text and that last part is not in the past tense. It is "...et surtout d'être tout simplement nos parents" which I would translate as "...and above all for just being our parents"

[pauljones]

Thai Police are not crime fighters.

The first thing Thai Police consider is 'how can I exploit the situation for personal profit'.

I know for a fact, in Bangkok, hotels pay them off to keep bad news quiet.

[Nisa]

...Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts.

Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html

I've looked at the French text and that last part is not in the past tense. It is "...et surtout d'être tout simplement nos parents" which I would translate as "...and above all for just being our parents"

Thanks for that, I guess it is not only Thai to English news translations that we should be skeptical.

[Crushdepth]

Shhhhhh...it might damage the tourism industry....

[maidu]

Wow this guy was a BAD boy !!! Hmmm he seemed to like to poison people and moved in the backpacker set...... Here is my favorite part from the Wikipedia article about him. Guess the Thai police have not changed over the years .....

Sobhraj then went to Calcutta, where he murdered Israeli scholar Avoni Jacob for his passport, and used it to move to Singapore with Leclerc and Chowdhury, then to India and - rather boldly - back to Bangkok in March 1976. There they were interrogated by Thai policemen in connection with the murders, but easily let off the hook because authorities feared that the negative publicity accompanying a murder trial would harm the country's tourist trade.

If memory serves (from watching a TV report about Sobhraj), it was a man working at the Dutch Embassy who alerted Bkk police of the suspect being in Bkk. Police went there, found him, saw his papers appeared to be in order. Let him go a few minutes later. Sobhraj went traveling on to kill a few more young women.

Regarding the tragic case of the 2 Canadian women. I don't think it was intentional poisoning to kill. I believe it was a date-rape attempt gone bad from overdose. It's not a stretch to imagine one or more young men thinking, "if I can get these cute chicks to ingest a cocktail of debilitating chemicals, then I can........" Apologies, if this theory bothers anyone, but I think I can speak for T.Visa posters, by saying we're saddened and concerned, and that's why we're floating so many scenarios here in print.

[GuestHouse]

Are the Thai police officers and government officials who at the start of this tragedy declared the victims were taking drugs now going to be charged under the criminal laws of libel?

Nah, forget it.

This Thailand, next week we'll be reading how some guy has been charged with brining Thailand's tourism industry into disrepute by posting photos of garbage on some Thai beach on his Facebook page.

[maidu]

Considering all the earlier conspiracy theories revolving around a police cover up I think the findings, or rather lack there of, "No [illicit] drugs were found in their systems and there were no signs of what may have caused their deaths.", suggests they are not trying to hide anything.

I just can't see that they would deliberately make themselves come across so clueless in such a high profile case. The fact that no illicit drugs were found removes the suggested police favourite "scape goats" eg. mushrooms, od on recreational drugs etc

Unfortunately it seems they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent on an international scale. Had they found evidence of poisoning, whether by foul play or accidental incompetent act by another party, I don't see how it hurts Tourism, any more than it is being currently, to come public with this, rather than the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases by not finding a definite cause in this one. Surely that would be the best result for Thai Tourism/ Police, for them to have been able come out and said "definite evidence of such and such poison, indicating accidental death due to pesticide"?

I just hope that such extreme symptoms, leading to not one but two simultaneous tragic deaths, would leave some trace and that in despite of any negative factors the Canadian autopsy will be able to turn up something that the Thai's haven't. I'm sure it would be of little consolation to their family but might at least provide them some possibility of closure.

I respectfully disagree. First off, a conclusive result would likely necessitate 'blaming' someone or some entity. Thai authorities don't like to blame their own. If culpability is found with an establishment (hotel, restaurant, etc) then that establishment loses face (at best) and could be held criminally liable and fined. If the evidence points to some punks who may have overdosed them on some poisonous chemicals, then the authorities would have to find and convict the punks - traslating to much added work for cops and investigators, and who's going to pay for those added efforts? Plus, all that added thinking - ouch.

An inconclusive result was the most likely outcome from the get-go, because it's the quickest way for Thais and farang to get on to forgetting the episode - and for farang to get back on the tourist trail to spending money. It's the most expedient way for Thai tourism industry to avoid losing face, relatively speaking.

[ttelise]

Considering all the earlier conspiracy theories revolving around a police cover up I think the findings, or rather lack there of, "No [illicit] drugs were found in their systems and there were no signs of what may have caused their deaths.", suggests they are not trying to hide anything.

I just can't see that they would deliberately make themselves come across so clueless in such a high profile case. The fact that no illicit drugs were found removes the suggested police favourite "scape goats" eg. mushrooms, od on recreational drugs etc

Unfortunately it seems they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent on an international scale. Had they found evidence of poisoning, whether by foul play or accidental incompetent act by another party, I don't see how it hurts Tourism, any more than it is being currently, to come public with this, rather than the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases by not finding a definite cause in this one. Surely that would be the best result for Thai Tourism/ Police, for them to have been able come out and said "definite evidence of such and such poison, indicating accidental death due to pesticide"?

I just hope that such extreme symptoms, leading to not one but two simultaneous tragic deaths, would leave some trace and that in despite of any negative factors the Canadian autopsy will be able to turn up something that the Thai's haven't. I'm sure it would be of little consolation to their family but might at least provide them some possibility of closure.

I respectfully disagree. First off, a conclusive result would likely necessitate 'blaming' someone or some entity. Thai authorities don't like to blame their own. If culpability is found with an establishment (hotel, restaurant, etc) then that establishment loses face (at best) and could be held criminally liable and fined. If the evidence points to some punks who may have overdosed them on some poisonous chemicals, then the authorities would have to find and convict the punks - traslating to much added work for cops and investigators, and who's going to pay for those added efforts? Plus, all that added thinking - ouch.

An inconclusive result was the most likely outcome from the get-go, because it's the quickest way for Thais and farang to get on to forgetting the episode - and for farang to get back on the tourist trail to spending money. It's the most expedient way for Thai tourism industry to avoid losing face, relatively speaking.

I agree. Ferangled assumes the Thai authorities act in an intelligent proactive manner. I don't see it. I see nothing but apathy from Thai authorities followed by knee jerk reactions to save face when someone who can actually cause problems for them becomes the proverbial squeaky wheel.

[ttelise]

Wow this guy was a BAD boy !!! Hmmm he seemed to like to poison people and moved in the backpacker set...... Here is my favorite part from the Wikipedia article about him. Guess the Thai police have not changed over the years .....

Sobhraj then went to Calcutta, where he murdered Israeli scholar Avoni Jacob for his passport, and used it to move to Singapore with Leclerc and Chowdhury, then to India and - rather boldly - back to Bangkok in March 1976. There they were interrogated by Thai policemen in connection with the murders, but easily let off the hook because authorities feared that the negative publicity accompanying a murder trial would harm the country's tourist trade.

If memory serves (from watching a TV report about Sobhraj), it was a man working at the Dutch Embassy who alerted Bkk police of the suspect being in Bkk. Police went there, found him, saw his papers appeared to be in order. Let him go a few minutes later. Sobhraj went traveling on to kill a few more young women.

Regarding the tragic case of the 2 Canadian women. I don't think it was intentional poisoning to kill. I believe it was a date-rape attempt gone bad from overdose. It's not a stretch to imagine one or more young men thinking, "if I can get these cute chicks to ingest a cocktail of debilitating chemicals, then I can........" Apologies, if this theory bothers anyone, but I think I can speak for T.Visa posters, by saying we're saddened and concerned, and that's why we're floating so many scenarios here in print.

I could buy this, but for bleeding mucus membranes, below eyes and etc. Also the akimbo position. Overdose of GHB or any benzo including roofies would generally leave someone I'm a fairly peaceful looking state. They certainly would nit be getting up to puke in a garbage can.

GHB hits quick. Used to take it when sold as weight lifting supp (better rest = better recovery and more gh) at health food stores. They would nit be walking anywhere if the took a lethal dose of that.

Finally, and I may be wrong, there would have been time only for a liver first pass before death. I think if one dies, the body does not metabolize and no more liver pass so should spike big time in mass spec.

[Ferangled]

Considering all the earlier conspiracy theories revolving around a police cover up I think the findings, or rather lack there of, "No [illicit] drugs were found in their systems and there were no signs of what may have caused their deaths.", suggests they are not trying to hide anything.

I just can't see that they would deliberately make themselves come across so clueless in such a high profile case. The fact that no illicit drugs were found removes the suggested police favourite "scape goats" eg. mushrooms, od on recreational drugs etc

Unfortunately it seems they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent on an international scale. Had they found evidence of poisoning, whether by foul play or accidental incompetent act by another party, I don't see how it hurts Tourism, any more than it is being currently, to come public with this, rather than the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases by not finding a definite cause in this one. Surely that would be the best result for Thai Tourism/ Police, for them to have been able come out and said "definite evidence of such and such poison, indicating accidental death due to pesticide"?

I just hope that such extreme symptoms, leading to not one but two simultaneous tragic deaths, would leave some trace and that in despite of any negative factors the Canadian autopsy will be able to turn up something that the Thai's haven't. I'm sure it would be of little consolation to their family but might at least provide them some possibility of closure.

I respectfully disagree. First off, a conclusive result would likely necessitate 'blaming' someone or some entity. Thai authorities don't like to blame their own. If culpability is found with an establishment (hotel, restaurant, etc) then that establishment loses face (at best) and could be held criminally liable and fined. If the evidence points to some punks who may have overdosed them on some poisonous chemicals, then the authorities would have to find and convict the punks - traslating to much added work for cops and investigators, and who's going to pay for those added efforts? Plus, all that added thinking - ouch.

An inconclusive result was the most likely outcome from the get-go, because it's the quickest way for Thais and farang to get on to forgetting the episode - and for farang to get back on the tourist trail to spending money. It's the most expedient way for Thai tourism industry to avoid losing face, relatively speaking.

I agree. Ferangled assumes the Thai authorities act in an intelligent proactive manner. I don't see it. I see nothing but apathy from Thai authorities followed by knee jerk reactions to save face when someone who can actually cause problems for them becomes the proverbial squeaky wheel.

@ Ttelise

How can you possibly gleam from my post that I believe "the Thai authorities act in an intelligent proactive manner"...??? Did you even read my post?!

Here's a few exerts from my post that would dispute your conclusion: "the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases" , "they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent" , "make themselves come across so clueless"

I was just trying to add a bit of balance to this thread and point out that incompetence doesn't necessarily = deliberate cover up.

@Maidu

Appreciate your point but strange that on another high profile crime thread running here the consensus of opinion among those claiming police corruption, would have us believe that the police have provided a couple of convenient scape goats and forced them to confess. The police appear on the face of it to have reacted swiftly and done a good job in arresting the suspects so quickly. The best outcome for Thai Tourism.

Consider that and then apply it to this case, where the police are visibly looking incompetent and clutching at straws.... would it not be far easier and better for the Thai Tourism industry for them to provide a scapegoat complete with confession?

eg. We've caught the guy, he's confessed, he was cleaning the room, slipped over and poured dangerous chemical everywhere and didn't clean it up properly. No deliberate malice but we'll lock him up for a long time anyway and all can rest assured that this was an isolated case and all is safe here. Move on, nothing to see here and isn't the weather lovely for a holiday?

That would reek of a police cover up, IMHO this reeks of incompetence, nothing more... perhaps I'm wrong, let's just hope the Canadian autopsy shows up something the Thais missed and the family can get some closure.

[fullcave]

The Portuguese guys must have slipped some ibuprofen (most likely mixed into the yogurt) then immediately jumped a fairy to phuket where they murdered a foreign travel agent and then stole a illegal tourist bus and

There may be health laws related to embalming and flights or specifically bringing a body into another country but if not, this would have had to be requested from the Canadian Embassy as it would be completely against protocol.

There is really no way they could have stopped the two men from leaving as they left the same day the bodies were discovered and no matter what one might thing should be done, investigations just don't happen this quickly anywhere in a death with no signs of foul play and where a video needs to be viewed and the people in the video identified.

There was never any mention of the police attributing the cause of death to ibuprofen regardless of how many people want to think this because it was stated there were numerous over the counter drugs in the room including ibuprofen which is not uncommon to cause stomach bleeding (especially when drinking). Note there was was blood in their vomit and might be of interest because the blood could be a red herring in terms of death. The ibuprofen and OTC drugs could have also been an indication that they may have been suffering symptoms earlier but the whole thing may have simply been brought up because a reporter asked if drugs were found in the room and which type and if they could be related. Certainly there was NEVER any claim or even hint by police this was the cause of death and the most earliest reports suspected some kind of toxin or poisoning.

The room was gone over by numerous crime and health agencies and was obviously sealed off as there were reports of numerous agencies examining the room and its contents for days after. There has been absolutely no reports of if the room has been reopened of if and when it will be or if anything in the room is left and wasn't taken away by investigators.

The preliminary autopsy performed was delayed because the Canadian Embassy requested it be brought to a specific hospital.

The family in Canada has asked that medical information be kept confidential.

It is usual for police to release specific details about an ongoing investigation.

There has been absolutely nothing that can be pointed at that has been done by police that would indicate any concern of not letting facts come out because of fear it will hurt tourism. Two deaths in a hotel room, isn't good for tourism no matter how you play it but the worst possible way to play it is by not knowing especially given the deaths up North. According to many here, it could have easily been wrapped up by saying it was murder and grabbing some patsy off the street and beat him into confession then case closed and everybody moves on.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the police, medical examiner and various agencies involved have conspired together to cover anything up or form some conspiracy to cover anything up.

There is absolutely nothing unusual about not having autopsy results in a 2 weeks in a case that involves poison or drugs. The Coroner in Canada already has stated it may be months before they release a report which actually may not be able to tell the cause of death. Even in the highest of profile cases in the west such as Michael Jackson and Nicole Smith where drugs were suspected and there was a good idea of the drugs taken, it took months for the conclusive autopsy reports and cause of death.

Thailand is not as rich or advanced as places like Canada and the US or UK and it is idiotic to believe things can always happen as fast or as good as these places but just as idiotic to believe that the professionals in the medical examiners office the various health groups investigating this don't know what they are doing. Even in the deaths up North with soooo many international medical teams and organization involved, there wasn't a conclusive cause of death determined that tied the victims together.

It is actually not unheard of for exact cause of death every to be known. In fact, it is not even uncommon for causes of deaths to have unknown origins. Many causes of death are from heart failures or dehydration and other things without the cause of these problems being known. They almost certainly know what killed these girls just like they know what killed the people in Chiang Mai but what attributed or is to be blamed for these causes. Not much different than thinking about somebody dying from cancer ... sometimes they know what caused the cancer and sometimes they don't.

Yes, very freaky to have these hotel deaths occur after the mystery deaths up North but lets please try to stop some of the crazy assumptions and conspiracy theories and the faux superiority that we know more than the experts here.

May I just point out that this post and many others belonging to you are full of crazy assumptions, you are no better than those you are chastising so may I suggest you just leave it oh mighty one.

may I also add there is another thread related to these deaths full of theories - drug/poison theories discussions debates - can we please not have the same again here

Right now we are waiting for autosy results from canada and if I may add - an interview with the two men that were last to see them alive which in my opinion is of the utmost importance

leave it at that

are you also attracted to shinny objects by chance?

stated a British tourist before fleeing the country.

[smedly]

Considering all the earlier conspiracy theories revolving around a police cover up I think the findings, or rather lack there of, "No [illicit] drugs were found in their systems and there were no signs of what may have caused their deaths.", suggests they are not trying to hide anything.

I just can't see that they would deliberately make themselves come across so clueless in such a high profile case. The fact that no illicit drugs were found removes the suggested police favourite "scape goats" eg. mushrooms, od on recreational drugs etc

Unfortunately it seems they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent on an international scale. Had they found evidence of poisoning, whether by foul play or accidental incompetent act by another party, I don't see how it hurts Tourism, any more than it is being currently, to come public with this, rather than the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases by not finding a definite cause in this one. Surely that would be the best result for Thai Tourism/ Police, for them to have been able come out and said "definite evidence of such and such poison, indicating accidental death due to pesticide"?

I just hope that such extreme symptoms, leading to not one but two simultaneous tragic deaths, would leave some trace and that in despite of any negative factors the Canadian autopsy will be able to turn up something that the Thai's haven't. I'm sure it would be of little consolation to their family but might at least provide them some possibility of closure.

I respectfully disagree. First off, a conclusive result would likely necessitate 'blaming' someone or some entity. Thai authorities don't like to blame their own. If culpability is found with an establishment (hotel, restaurant, etc) then that establishment loses face (at best) and could be held criminally liable and fined. If the evidence points to some punks who may have overdosed them on some poisonous chemicals, then the authorities would have to find and convict the punks - traslating to much added work for cops and investigators, and who's going to pay for those added efforts? Plus, all that added thinking - ouch.

An inconclusive result was the most likely outcome from the get-go, because it's the quickest way for Thais and farang to get on to forgetting the episode - and for farang to get back on the tourist trail to spending money. It's the most expedient way for Thai tourism industry to avoid losing face, relatively speaking.

I agree. Ferangled assumes the Thai authorities act in an intelligent proactive manner. I don't see it. I see nothing but apathy from Thai authorities followed by knee jerk reactions to save face when someone who can actually cause problems for them becomes the proverbial squeaky wheel.

@ Ttelise

How can you possibly gleam from my post that I believe "the Thai authorities act in an intelligent proactive manner"...??? Did you even read my post?!

Here's a few exerts from my post that would dispute your conclusion: "the current display of total inability to prevent similar future cases" , "they are now left clutching at straws and coming across as totally incompetent" , "make themselves come across so clueless"

I was just trying to add a bit of balance to this thread and point out that incompetence doesn't necessarily = deliberate cover up.

@Maidu

Appreciate your point but strange that on another high profile crime thread running here the consensus of opinion among those claiming police corruption, would have us believe that the police have provided a couple of convenient scape goats and forced them to confess. The police appear on the face of it to have reacted swiftly and done a good job in arresting the suspects so quickly. The best outcome for Thai Tourism.

Consider that and then apply it to this case, where the police are visibly looking incompetent and clutching at straws.... would it not be far easier and better for the Thai Tourism industry for them to provide a scapegoat complete with confession?

eg. We've caught the guy, he's confessed, he was cleaning the room, slipped over and poured dangerous chemical everywhere and didn't clean it up properly. No deliberate malice but we'll lock him up for a long time anyway and all can rest assured that this was an isolated case and all is safe here. Move on, nothing to see here and isn't the weather lovely for a holiday?

That would reek of a police cover up, IMHO this reeks of incompetence, nothing more... perhaps I'm wrong, let's just hope the Canadian autopsy shows up something the Thais missed and the family can get some closure.

agree with most of what you are saying but I'd go as far as saying incompetent cover up - leaving this case unsolved (as it is right now) would make or should make every tourist that visits this area feel unsafe, it is left to the imagination as to what happened to these lovely innocent girls, intentionally/accidently poisoned - unsafe fumigation of hotel rooms - over-use unsafe use of chemicals - serial killer - date rape and the list is unending - personally right now I would not feel safe eating out or staying in a holtel in this area of Thailand right now

and I still say a Scotish girl and 2x men know more about this story than will ever be uncovered by a lab.

The Canadian authorities should insist on attendence of Canadian detectives to look through this case and get the facts straight as right now it's anyones guess

[EyesWideOpen]

It is interesting to debate whether the actions of the police in this case are driven by their standard incompetence , ( Hey Sombat , stop manning the helmet checkpoint we need to check out some farang who died...) , or their actions are part of a cunning master plan to limit tourism damage.....

Sometime to understand something, you need to put the shoe on the other foot. So here goes. Lets say hypothetically the son of a wealthy and powerful political family in Thailand suddenly turns up dead in a hotel room in the same fashion as these girls. Do you really think in a million years the police are going to the hi-so family and tell them the results are inconclusive ???

I still think the link to this case is the fact of the 12 or 13 ( so many I am losing track now) people that have died in this manner ( Thailand sudden death hotel syndrome ) in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, most have been young farang girls. It is all about the numbers. When the first couple of people died in Chiang Mai, the police were coming up with standard goofy stuff like contaminated seaweed. Then when more people died, the police chief came out and said with a straight face these deaths were a coincidence, Then finally after a whole bunch of people died they admitted a problem and brought in foreign experts to try and find the problem. Of course by then it was too late...

I believe in police parlance these deaths would be referred to as cluster deaths, and can be solved by looking at ALL the cases and finding out what is common to them...

Edited June 30, 2012 by EyesWideOpen

[Ferangled]

It is interesting to debate whether the actions of the police in this case are driven by their standard incompetence , ( Hey Sombat , stop manning the helmet checkpoint we need to check out some farang who died...) , or their actions are part of a cunning master plan to limit tourism damage.....

Sometime to understand something, you need to put the shoe on the other foot. So here goes. Lets say hypothetically the son of a wealthy and powerful political family in Thailand suddenly turns up dead in a hotel room in the same fashion as these girls. Do you really think in a million years the police are going to the hi-so family and tell them the results are inconclusive ???

I still think the link to this case is the fact of the 13 or 14 ( so many I am losing track now) people that have died in this manner ( Thailand sudden death hotel syndrome ) in Phi Phi and Chiang Mai, most have been young farang girls.

Regarding your hypothetical scenario, I think the pertinent next question would be if the results were really inconclusive and you are suggesting that under this pressure the police would provide a scapegoat to please, then why have they not so in this case? Surely following this logic that would suggest that actually the results were inconclusive in this case and there has been no deliberate cover up?

Taking the autopsy results on face value, I would think that there is a greater chance that a deliberate poisoning would leave no evidence as opposed to an accidental one; given that one of the main aims in a deliberately poisoning is to do so in a manner which leaves no trace.

@Smedly Totally agree that the current unresolved situation of this case is not doing anything to ease tourist fears in this area, that's my point. I also agree that these people linked to the case need to be located and properly questioned, if they haven't been already, even that's not clear.

If they haven't then they shouldn't have been allowed to leave the country before doing so... another potential indicator of incompetence over a cover up, surely a foreign scape goat would have been the ideal candidate for a police fit up...

[EyesWideOpen]

The police already have the perfect farang scapegoat, the mysterious Portuguese men. Think about it. If they were in custody, they would be screaming their heads off, and their government would be leaping in to help them. Clearly would be a mess. Instead with the men gone, the police can infer they are involved in some mysterious way , so this avoids a messy arrest.

[smedly]

yes Identifying a food vendor and taking action to shut them down would close this case and most people including tourists would move on, IMO this Hotel is out of business (The CM Hotel has been demolished already) - nobody will want to stay there for fear of getting dead in a room - eating around the place will also be under strain - in fact the whole place has a huge question mark over it, and considering what's going on in Phuket this whole thing becomes a regonal problem for tourism, Pattaya isn't much better, scams and criminals trying to feed an ever increasing drug problem in Thailand has gotten way out of control and the corrupt police/authorities have let it happen, when you see diplomats confronting local and national authorities in public then things have gotten out of hand - Charlerm's recent announcements are not coincidental - it is obvious that foreign governments are now putting extreme diplomatic pressure on Thailand to get it's tourism house in order or travel warnings will be raised against Thailand on a Global basis, this is very quickly becoming a lawless society with the sitting government leading the charge

[mommysboy]

The results are inconclusive because the Thai's want them to be inconclusive. After all the tourism industry might suffer if the cause was found to be local incompetence or worse. Shocker!!!!

The bodies were embalmed in an attempt to prevent the true cause of death being known although tissue and hair samples may prove otherwise. Were the Canadians prevented from taking samples prior to embalming? If so, why?

The Portuguese guy is just a red herring. He is not Thai, enough said.

The cops here have no interest in the matter because there is no money in it for them. I say this because I know personally that the cops in Phuket have no interest in investigating anything in which they cannot make money.

Now all please bow down and make merit to the almighty God of money

Edit: my typing

Is it written anywhere that the bodies were embalmed? You can't do this without the expressed permission of the family, the deceased belong to the family and not the Thai authorities. You require permission to do anything (apart from a coronial autopsy) because of cultural and religous rites and as the family have requested an autopsy by canadian specialists I doubt very very much if they would have agreed to embalming.

I too have wondered where this embalming story came from. I saw that a TV member mentioned it on another thread but I never saw any sort of official news report stating that the bodies were embalmed

All it takes is one (1) person to throw in a red herring, some will see it and say, "Oh yea that's a good one I will run with that rumour." After about 2 pages a percentage of people on here will start to believe it.

It has not been reported anywhere that the girls were embalmed, it is a silly little rumour started by someone way back in this topic who has no idea.

Would a red herring be sufficient to cause such symptoms? I've had a kipper or 2 myself in the past and although I got heartburn I survived, figured it best to stick to bacon sandwiches.

But seriously poster is absolutely right, so much heresay and rumour.

Motrin, 'shrooms', loose morals, date rape drugs, natural causes for God's sake, and even peanut flaming allergy, I tell you I'm getting anut allergy of sorts too.

Some other people without experience of living in Thailand, make the understandable error of thinking Thais are up together people with a basic competence,eg, they might say it could not possibly be bug spray because you'd need a megadose and assume no-one could be that stupid to get the mix so wrong. YES THEY COULD!!

[Ferangled]

yes Identifying a food vendor and taking action to shut them down would close this case and most people including tourists would move on,

Exactly, the police could easily have fitted up some small time food vendor had they wanted to, the case would be closed and Tourist fears alleviated.

Personally while I think the crime situation here could be greatly improved, I don't believe the situation is totally out of control.

I live on Phuket, have done for quite a few years now and have never been the victim of any serious crime, neither has anyone I know personally. I could not say the same for my time in the UK, France or Italy, all perceived as "safe" countries... just my personal experiences.

[dcsw53]

As with every cover up by authorities worldwide the final statement will be " but valuable lessons have been learned".

Pass the sick bag.

[Arkady]

The police already have the perfect farang scapegoat, the mysterious Portuguese men. Think about it. If they were in custody, they would be screaming their heads off, and their government would be leaping in to help them. Clearly would be a mess. Instead with the men gone, the police can infer they are involved in some mysterious way , so this avoids a messy arrest.

The police say they identified them the day before they left the country (and failed to prevent them leaving the country). If they have returned home to Portugal there is nothing to stop Thai investigators flying to Portugal to question them. I am sure the Portuguese authorities would have no objection. After all they are witnesses, not suspects. If they can't afford the trip, they could ask the Portuguese police to interview the men for them. It is not as if the men have been beamed up to another planet. I think you are right in that the Thai police are happy to leave the implied blame on two farangs that are no longer in Thailand - case closed.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Arkady

[Yunla]

yes Identifying a food vendor and taking action to shut them down would close this case and most people including tourists would move on, IMO this Hotel is out of business (The CM Hotel has been demolished already) - nobody will want to stay there for fear of getting dead in a room - eating around the place will also be under strain - in fact the whole place has a huge question mark over it, and considering what's going on in Phuket this whole thing becomes a regonal problem for tourism, Pattaya isn't much better, scams and criminals trying to feed an ever increasing drug problem in Thailand has gotten way out of control and the corrupt police/authorities have let it happen, when you see diplomats confronting local and national authorities in public then things have gotten out of hand - Charlerm's recent announcements are not coincidental - it is obvious that foreign governments are now putting extreme diplomatic pressure on Thailand to get it's tourism house in order or travel warnings will be raised against Thailand on a Global basis, this is very quickly becoming a lawless society with the sitting government leading the charge

Great post, I would only add that in Thailand there is a very strong belief in ghosts, and so not only will the hotel be avoided by tourists but by Thais who are superstitious about these things. One of my best Thai friends, had the option to buy a very nice condo at a knock-down price but said no because the previous owner had died there (of natural causes). She explained "condo has ghosts" and added that nobody she knew would live in a flat where somebody had died.

[ginjag]

Sherlock-Watson, Marples, Colombo, name them we have them here. I didn't realise we had a competition on the longest posts. This happenned on the Chiang Mai SAGA. One or two know it alls again hogging the limelight, trying to make themselves look superior, instead of short helpful replies. Some tend to end up their own Ar#ehole in hammering out their long and stupid bumf.

Patience is needed until a verdict is given, then a full exchange of views. Good debates on the subject are healthy WITHOUT an epic/saga post.

If I remember having some of the same posters on the toll-way incident. Give us old expats a look in. Take a breather some of you.

[EyesWideOpen]

Sherlock-Watson, Marples, Colombo, name them we have them here. I didn't realise we had a competition on the longest posts. This happenned on the Chiang Mai SAGA. One or two know it alls again hogging the limelight, trying to make themselves look superior, instead of short helpful replies. Some tend to end up their own Ar#ehole in hammering out their long and stupid bumf.

Patience is needed until a verdict is given, then a full exchange of views. Good debates on the subject are healthy WITHOUT an epic/saga post.

If I remember having some of the same posters on the toll-way incident. Give us old expats a look in. Take a breather some of you.

Verdict has been given. Read the headline.... "Autopsy Results On Canadian Sisters ‘Inconclusive’" . So all that is left is speculation on the board here. Wait, that is what a board is for right ???

[Hellhound66]

Wow this guy was a BAD boy !!! Hmmm he seemed to like to poison people and moved in the backpacker set...... Here is my favorite part from the Wikipedia article about him. Guess the Thai police have not changed over the years .....

Sobhraj then went to Calcutta, where he murdered Israeli scholar Avoni Jacob for his passport, and used it to move to Singapore with Leclerc and Chowdhury, then to India and - rather boldly - back to Bangkok in March 1976. There they were interrogated by Thai policemen in connection with the murders, but easily let off the hook because authorities feared that the negative publicity accompanying a murder trial would harm the country's tourist trade.

If memory serves (from watching a TV report about Sobhraj), it was a man working at the Dutch Embassy who alerted Bkk police of the suspect being in Bkk. Police went there, found him, saw his papers appeared to be in order. Let him go a few minutes later. Sobhraj went traveling on to kill a few more young women.

Regarding the tragic case of the 2 Canadian women. I don't think it was intentional poisoning to kill. I believe it was a date-rape attempt gone bad from overdose. It's not a stretch to imagine one or more young men thinking, "if I can get these cute chicks to ingest a cocktail of debilitating chemicals, then I can........" Apologies, if this theory bothers anyone, but I think I can speak for T.Visa posters, by saying we're saddened and concerned, and that's why we're floating so many scenarios here in print.

I could buy this, but for bleeding mucus membranes, below eyes and etc. Also the akimbo position. Overdose of GHB or any benzo including roofies would generally leave someone I'm a fairly peaceful looking state. They certainly would nit be getting up to puke in a garbage can.

GHB hits quick. Used to take it when sold as weight lifting supp (better rest = better recovery and more gh) at health food stores. They would nit be walking anywhere if the took a lethal dose of that.

Finally, and I may be wrong, there would have been time only for a liver first pass before death. I think if one dies, the body does not metabolize and no more liver pass so should spike big time in mass spec.

One way or the other I do not think we will ever know now but I think you are underestimating 3 things here. 1. date rape drugs mixed with "buckets" of Sangsom. 2. date rape drugs mixed with "buckets" of Sangsom and the additional ingestion of over the counter drugs that were present in their room. 3.They were female. Women react in a totally different way to drugs and alcohol than guys.

Women are at an increased risk of adverse drug reactions compared with men in part because they are more likely to use multiple medications and dietary supplements etc, according to the results of a number of recent studies. Sex-based differences in metabolism, anatomy, and hormone levels also seem to play a role in why women experience more unwanted effects of drugs.

There are multiple references to these drugs on the net. Here is a sample:

Coma and seizures can occur following use of GHB. Combined use with other drugs such as alcohol can result in nausea and breathing difficulties. GHB and two of its precursors, gamma butyrolactone (GBL) and 1,4 butanediol (BD), have been involved in poisonings, overdoses, date rapes, and deaths.

Rohypnol may be lethal when mixed with alcohol and/or other CNS depressants.

Ketamine, in high doses, can cause impaired motor function, high blood pressure, and potentially fatal respiratory problems.

Just pointing this out as I said I do not think this case is going anywhere.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Hellhound66

[Chopperboy]

...Not sure of the context but sounds like they are saying good bye. Even using a phrase that appears to be in the past tense "for having been our parents" instead of "for being our parents" .. but maybe the father was translating from French, never can know all the facts.

Source: http://www.lfpress.c...6/19921666.html

I've looked at the French text and that last part is not in the past tense. It is "...et surtout d'être tout simplement nos parents" which I would translate as "...and above all for just being our parents"

Thanks for clarifying that - I like others did wonder if the translation of the tense was correct at the time.

It is of course possible that they had some premonition of the events - its not that uncommon.

In the animal kingdom there are 100's of cases of dogs knowing an earth quake will happen before it does and in the tsunami 2004 I believe not one dog was killed.