Thai Buddhism Is What It Is

[Para]

Whether smoking is socially acceptable or not(What about cencur in movies..),is a bit beyond the point.Everybody knows,that it is extremely bad for your health AND sets a very bad example for others "if the monks can do it..." Isn`t that enough reason to stop doing it?! I for one admire Buddhas teachings,but I can not feel any respect for monks,walking the streets,smoking! The way I see it is,that if they can`t understand all the negativity with smoking or,alternatively,are unable to control it,well,then....Regarding the point,made many times already,about beeing passiv when you experience something that seems wrong to you,I understand what is meant and can agree up to a point.But there are times "when good men must speak.." to try to stop/alter wrongdoings!Or in other words,what meaning is there to be a better and better person in theory,if you can not practically help others in need of help?!..

And when you made a formal complaint to the Abbot of you local Temple what did he say?

Remember we are discussing the actions of Farang Monks here not Thai.......

Edited July 10, 2012 by Para

[Bosse137]

"Thai buddhism is what it is" is the subject,isn`t it? And accepting monks smoking seems to be a speciallity for Thai (cultural thing),according to some posters.Unlike in America,somebody noted. No,I have not complained to the local Abbot.It would be like trying to stop a train because I didn`t like how fast it was moving.After all,I am not a hero,not even a good man,and I know what is possible and ´what is not.ButI must admit,that your remark was a clever one,that made me chuckle!

[Several]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

[hookedondhamma]

Whether smoking is socially acceptable or not(What about cencur in movies..),is a bit beyond the point.Everybody knows,that it is extremely bad for your health AND sets a very bad example for others "if the monks can do it..." Isn`t that enough reason to stop doing it?! I for one admire Buddhas teachings,but I can not feel any respect for monks,walking the streets,smoking! The way I see it is,that if they can`t understand all the negativity with smoking or,alternatively,are unable to control it,well,then....Regarding the point,made many times already,about beeing passiv when you experience something that seems wrong to you,I understand what is meant and can agree up to a point.But there are times "when good men must speak.." to try to stop/alter wrongdoings!Or in other words,what meaning is there to be a better and better person in theory,if you can not practically help others in need of help?!..

Not everyone is the same. That's a very important thing to remember, because not everyone thinks alike, and not everyone has the same set of views. Have you every tried to force a smoker to quit? If not I highly recommend you don't. I think it's great that you see the danger in smoking, but I don't think you'll get very far with your argument.

The only time I've ever seen monks purchase cigarettes have been the times when they were ordained for very short periods of time - 5 days, 2 weeks, etc. That's another important thing to remember. Remember that there are also men who have not truly ordained and are taking advantage of the laypeople by manipulating them for material gains.

Grouping everyone in one box just won't work. The monks who I've seen ordained longer, have had the cigarettes given to by the laypeople. Have you ever tried to force a layperson (especially in Thailand) from using his method of 'making merit?' If not, I highly recommend you don't.

Please try and see that what may seem wrong to you may be in fact right for others.

Edited July 10, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[hookedondhamma]

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

I don't see why you would. Betel nut was a big thing many, many years ago across southeast Asia. Perceptions have since changed, and it is slowly dying out with the older generation. When I was studying at university, one of my classmates would chew the stuff like it was becoming extinct, while his friends would clear like roaches in a room when the light is turned on. I can't criticize anyone on their decision to chew or smoke, because they know their body and mind better than I ever will.

[hookedondhamma]

Personally, I think it's a bit sad that what we think of as "pure Buddhism" is often ignored, even though it has a proven record of reducing suffering, in favour of what is essentially animism, but if that's what people want...

Best attempts ot travel back to the original post (I couldn't quote your OP, Camerata, so I'm typing it manually - I hope it works). I've thought about that as well. I see it quite a bit in Bangkok, but it's refreshing to know animism isn't practiced at some temples (mainly the forest temples I've stayed at). The thing is though, you won't find many people there except on Sunday and Wan Phra (you also won't find any 'Phras' there, either :-)

If you're ever in Loei I know a couple that are wonderful (one with electricity, the other without).

[fabianfred]

Letting the thais carry on with their own way of doing things is all very well....but...

When the monks are ignorant of the truth, because they learned from the same system, it is one thing.... but when they then teach this ignorance to others it is another.

Having wrong view is a personal loss and leads to creating negative karma. Teaching that wrong view to others is heinious and extremely bad karma.

We all know that Buddhism is in decline...predicted in the suttas....and inevitable...but no need to shrug our shoulders and not try to keep the spark of truth alive for those few who will listen.

[Para]

And accepting monks smoking seems to be a speciallity for Thai (cultural thing)

I totally agree its almost as if the whole 'intoxication' rule has been bent to fit Thai society

But must admit,that your remark was a clever one,that made me chuckle!

Happy to oblige! ;-)

I have tried talking to my Abbot and the matter was just brushed off. I have heard that the Chief Abbot for the district has said he doesn't want to see Monks smoking when on show so as with most things the 'problem' was fixed for a couple of weeks but now its back to normal.

The sad fact is as with almost every kind of group in society the ill actions of the few reflect badly on the whole.

[Bosse137]

"The world is full of ignorence,wars....." Yes,really!! Especially ignorence... You are not likly to be able to stop any wars,but you should be able to quit your own smoking. That is,if you are not ignorent but aware of all the bad consequenses,for you self and,in a broader meaning,for the society at large.I do not try to make anybody quit;by all means,puff away till your lungs or heart give in! The reason why laymen give cigarettes to monks,is of course,that they know,that monks want it.Is it really to much to expect,that monks can,by their own good will,try to be a good example to others,especially the young,and lay off smoking...?I accept that others have other opinions on this subject,but for me it is clear:a monk who can`t control his mind enough to live without the "stimuli" of tobac,is in my eyes not a monk.Next to one of our fields do we have a wat.The monks have TV,mobils and smoke.What else they might do I do not know,and do not care about either,but one can not help thinking;why do these people live in a wat,mascerading as monks,if they want to live an ordinary life?! Could it be,that it is a nice existence with few worries? Actually I know of some,that were a lazy bunch and did not want to do something useful;they became monks..Let me add,that I am certain,that most of monks a good,honest people,whith an important roll.That is exactly why I am sad to see,when the few spoil the good image of Buddhismen!

[Para]

@Bosse137 health issues aside smoking breaks the rule relating to intoxication IMO. Maybe I am biased as I have never smoked but I honestly cant see how nicotine a well proved addictive substance is not treated as an intoxicant. If that rule can be bent then does that also mean cocaine and other addictive, intoxicating drugs can also be tolerated? Thai society and smoking go hand in hand and unfortunatly its been allowed to be carried over into the Sangha.

'That is exactly why I am sad to see,when the few spoil the good image of Buddhismen'

Agreed. As I said in my reply to your post a few minutes ago it only takes 1 bad apple......

Edited July 11, 2012 by Para

[harrry]

If we were talking about French monks would we say it is acceptible to drink wine as it is a french custom and thus not an intoxicant?

[Bosse137]

Para: Well,we seem to be on the same team.Generally,I want to add,in regard to some earlier posts,that I do definitely not want to "force" anybody to quit! Even if it was in my power to do so,which of course it is not..What I would hope for,is that some of the more enlightened people could guide, inspire if you like,others to WANT to do it,by their OWN will!It was actually this,the idea of finding the truth trough your own mind and thoughts,but perhaps with help of some hints from a "teacher",that made be interested in Buddhismen in the first place.So different from the dogmatic christianity!!

[camerata]

Whether smoking is socially acceptable or not(What about cencur in movies..),is a bit beyond the point.Everybody knows,that it is extremely bad for your health AND sets a very bad example for others "if the monks can do it..." Isn`t that enough reason to stop doing it?!

Well, not in my opinion. Is it a monk's job to be a "health role model" for society? I don't think so, otherwise monks would be jogging, doing yoga (in public!) and demanding only the healthiest food.

A monk who is working towards arahantship (enlightenment) would probably be unattached to his body. Take the great monk Ajahn Chah, for example. He didn't swat mosquitoes. He had malaria, jungle fever, and goodness knows what else, but he handled it with his mind. No medication. He had ALL his teeth (most of them good) removed, because having them filled was more trouble than it was worth. Pure though he was in practising the Dhamma and keeping the monastic precepts, I wouldn't hold him up as a health role model for children!

What Thai society expects from monks is to be a model of "virtue," and virtue to the average layman means keeping the precepts. I don't know how the monks' precept is phrased but the layman's 5th precept is: "I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness." IMO, smoking doesn't violate this precept.

As the "consumer" of the religion, does the average Thai really care about monks smoking? I doubt it. As long as he can still be the "provider" by chanting, giving blessings, making amulets, etc, it's OK.

Now, if we go back to the Buddha, the original Sangha and the core teachings, it's clear that a major craving like smoking would go against the Buddha's teaching and not be acceptable. Also, one thing that attracted people to the Buddha's teachings was his and their serene demeanor (a proof of their attainments), and I doubt that chain-smoking monks would project the right image. But, let's face it, at that time the monks were all aiming at arahantship.

These days, hardly any monks are aiming at enlightenment and I doubt anyone expects them to. As Buddhism functions in Thailand today, the Sangha needs monks to provide services for the laity, but the number of monks is dropping rapidly. Personally, I think this is why the Sangha can't be strict with the Vinaya and other rules. If a no-smoking order was to be enforced, half the monks would have to disrobe immediately. I believe temples were told some time ago to discourage smoking (too many monks become ill from it later in life), but it seems to have had little effect.

Don't get me wrong. I am also a non-smoker, and would like to see smoking banned completely, but I'm suggesting the issue is not simply a matter of, "I don't like smoking, therefore monks shouldn't do it."

[camerata]

I have tried talking to my Abbot and the matter was just brushed off. I have heard that the Chief Abbot for the district has said he doesn't want to see Monks smoking when on show so as with most things the 'problem' was fixed for a couple of weeks but now its back to normal.

Have you ever seen monks smoking indoors? This could lead eventually to the death of a non-smoker!

[Para]

I have tried talking to my Abbot and the matter was just brushed off. I have heard that the Chief Abbot for the district has said he doesn't want to see Monks smoking when on show so as with most things the 'problem' was fixed for a couple of weeks but now its back to normal.

Have you ever seen monks smoking indoors? This could lead eventually to the death of a non-smoker!

Hang on I'm a non smoker!

[Para]

Personally, I think this is why the Sangha can't be strict with the Vinaya and other rules. If a no-smoking order was to be enforced, half the monks would have to disrobe immediately. I believe temples were told some time ago to discourage smoking (too many monks become ill from it later in life), but it seems to have had little effect.

Problem is with this camerata where does it all end? The Vinaya was put there for a reason we allow 1 rule to be bent then whats to stop another and another? If smoking isnt an intoxicant they why cant a person give it up for the duration of their time in the Sangha?

[sabaijai]

I enjoyed Tim Ward's book, not for its insights into Farang/Thai Buddhism, which were few, but for the writing style. If you want to learn what Wat Pa Nanachat is really like, it's probably the best source available. Mainly I just found it amusing, laughed out loud while reading it.

Certainly there are more objective, and more scholarly, written accounts of Thai Buddhism, but I haven't come acress any as readable as Ward's, even though, like camerata, I disagree with many of his opinions. One hopes readers are intelligent enough to make up their own minds about the things he describes.

Ward also wrote what I thought was the best essay in Travellers Tales Thailand, an anthology which included work by such more famous writers as Pico Ayer. It was called "The Spirit Likes A Little Blood."

[sabaijai]

Personally, I think this is why the Sangha can't be strict with the Vinaya and other rules. If a no-smoking order was to be enforced, half the monks would have to disrobe immediately. I believe temples were told some time ago to discourage smoking (too many monks become ill from it later in life), but it seems to have had little effect.

Problem is with this camerata where does it all end? The Vinaya was put there for a reason we allow 1 rule to be bent then whats to stop another and another? If smoking isnt an intoxicant they why cant a person give it up for the duration of their time in the Sangha?

For several years now, smoking in Buddhist temples has been officially banned in Thailand. A few abbots actually enforce this act. I've seen signs citing the act in Wat Umong in Chiang Mai, for example.

[camerata]

Problem is with this camerata where does it all end? The Vinaya was put there for a reason we allow 1 rule to be bent then whats to stop another and another? If smoking isnt an intoxicant they why cant a person give it up for the duration of their time in the Sangha?

I think we are talking about two different things here: intoxicating substances and addictive substances. Intoxicating substances like alcohol aren't necessarily addictive. Nicotine is highly addictive but I don't think it is really an intoxicant that would cause one to become careless or less mindful. In fact I've known extremely smart people who said smoking improved their concentration. I suppose a lot depends on the exact meaning of the Pali word that is translated as "intoxicating."

To me the spirit of the 5th precept is to prevent a person from becoming careless/heedless and not compos mentis rather than to prevent craving/addiction. Lots of people are addicted to fizzy drinks, ice-cream, etc, but that obviously isn't included in the precept.

I wasn't suggesting that the precept should be bent, but that a literal reading of it might not include smoking.

[rockyysdt]

Well, not in my opinion. Is it a monk's job to be a "health role model" for society? I don't think so, otherwise monks would be jogging, doing yoga (in public!) and demanding only the healthiest food.

A monk who is working towards arahantship (enlightenment) would probably be unattached to his body. Take the great monk Ajahn Chah, for example. He didn't swat mosquitoes. He had malaria, jungle fever, and goodness knows what else, but he handled it with his mind. No medication. He had ALL his teeth (most of them good) removed, because having them filled was more trouble than it was worth. Pure though he was in practising the Dhamma and keeping the monastic precepts, I wouldn't hold him up as a health role model for children!

Purity in Dhamma practice and maintenance of the precepts is definately the way, but wouldn't a well maintained body have made his journey a lot easier?

What Thai society expects from monks is to be a model of "virtue," and virtue to the average layman means keeping the precepts. I don't know how the monks' precept is phrased but the layman's 5th precept is: "I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness." IMO, smoking doesn't violate this precept.

As the "consumer" of the religion, does the average Thai really care about monks smoking? I doubt it. As long as he can still be the "provider" by chanting, giving blessings, making amulets, etc, it's OK.

Now, if we go back to the Buddha, the original Sangha and the core teachings, it's clear that a major craving like smoking would go against the Buddha's teaching and not be acceptable. Also, one thing that attracted people to the Buddha's teachings was his and their serene demeanor (a proof of their attainments), and I doubt that chain-smoking monks would project the right image. But, let's face it, at that time the monks were all aiming at arahantship.

At a village I was involved with for some years, the family would generally avoid the local Wat.

Several of the Monks would publicly smoke and one had a penchant for whiskey.

The family would go out of their way to travel to a Wat some kilometres away when they needed to attend.

They would say: "Bad Monks!"

[rockyysdt]

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

Hi S.

I would never direct a beating towards you for your habit.

Not a sin, it's more a powerful addiction.

You're on the first step, which is mindfulness that you have a habit.

These days, I no longer try to meditate.

I work on the conditions required for meditation to naturally occur.

With smoking there'd be a number of things which might become obstacles to your path or practice.

The first one would be craving for another smoke during long periods of sitting.

I find reading the practices and techniques of successful travellors inspires me.

One such man was Sun Lun who is said to be Arahant.

One of his instructions is the need to sit for many hours.

A difficult task as it is, wouldn't this be made more difficult if you are influenced by considerable cravings?

The other issue is diminished lung capacity which occurs ever so subtley over a long period of time.

For most of us, breathing is our focus for sitting meditation and mindfulness of the body.

Anapanasiti revolves around breathing.

I'd be concerned that this technique would be made vastly more difficult due to smoking?

I wish you great strength in working towards creating the environment which will enhance your practice.

We are all very different and have unique issues each of us must overcome on our journey.

A good way to start is to list such issues and work on diminishing or removing them from our lives as we prepare a base from which to practice.

In life, I find myself immersed in negative feeling and thought as a result of interaction with others.

Perhaps due to inappropriate behaviour or speech by me (conditioning).

I'll then step back and observe my negative feelings and say to myself:

"Lifes circumstances have placed me in this situation. It might be unique to me or common. Is this a test? Do I allow myself to continue to feel bad in my life. If I really beileve in what the Buddha taught, how can I sit here and allow myself to feel bad?"

Same with addictions.

Is there any fact in Buddhism and the Four Noble Truths?

Is this the only way to escape Dukha and provide the truth of existence?

If we accept that it is, then wouldn't giving up smoking be easy?

Edited July 11, 2012 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

Purity in Dhamma practice and maintenance of the precepts is definately the way, but wouldn't a well maintained body have made his journey a lot easier?

Possibly easier in conventional terms, but would Ajahn Chah have got so far if he was attached to his body?

However, I think for most of us a well maintained body means a longer life and more time to practise.

[Several]

Absolutely right Rockyy, the detrimental effect of my smoking is very noticeable during Anapanasati, though not throughout the rest of the day. Luckily I do not get cravings whilst sitting and I'm guessing thats due to concentration. Like on long bus rides, if I cannot have one I don't even think about it. Though I am not yet up for hours of sitting at a time. Bad knees. At least I know when the rain is coming.

Camerata is also right on, though I would add that a strong flexible physique also brings a certain confidence and the activity involved in maintaining that state prevents self pitying.

[Several]

"The world is full of ignorence,wars....." Yes,really!! Especially ignorence... You are not likly to be able to stop any wars,but you should be able to quit your own smoking. That is,if you are not ignorent but aware of all the bad consequenses,for you self and,in a broader meaning,for the society at large.I do not try to make anybody quit;by all means,puff away till your lungs or heart give in! The reason why laymen give cigarettes to monks,is of course,that they know,that monks want it.Is it really to much to expect,that monks can,by their own good will,try to be a good example to others,especially the young,and lay off smoking...?I accept that others have other opinions on this subject,but for me it is clear:a monk who can`t control his mind enough to live without the "stimuli" of tobac,is in my eyes not a monk.Next to one of our fields do we have a wat.The monks have TV,mobils and smoke.What else they might do I do not know,and do not care about either,but one can not help thinking;why do these people live in a wat,mascerading as monks,if they want to live an ordinary life?! Could it be,that it is a nice existence with few worries? Actually I know of some,that were a lazy bunch and did not want to do something useful;they became monks..Let me add,that I am certain,that most of monks a good,honest people,whith an important roll.That is exactly why I am sad to see,when the few spoil the good image of Buddhismen!

Well my friend, get ordained and make a difference. I've sat in a ward full of old dying men trying to cheer them. We got knee deep in flood water helping those in trouble and donated a large quantity of food too. I teach english to poor locals for free. I've looked after the puppies people dump on us and watched them die. Given hope and support to the mentally ill and the desperate. Patrolled the Wat grounds at two in the morning trying to catch the yoms who steal our electric cable and copper piping for yaba and wondering how to deal with armed men non-violently in a language I don't speak. And the chances that anybody saw me and though 'Oh look, Phra Farang is smoking, we'd better start too!' are infinitessimally slim. Whatever damage I have caused is ameliorated by the massive amounts of tax I have paid. The life of this farang as a Monk is no masquerade. Thai Buddhism is what it is, and sometimes that means bloody and muddy, misunderstood and misjudged, powerless and alone. So give it a try. Or not. We all die regardless. Pax.

[camerata]

Thanks, Several. It's always good to get the other side of the story.

[Para]

Well my friend, get ordained and make a difference. I've sat in a ward full of old dying men trying to cheer them. We got knee deep in flood water helping those in trouble and donated a large quantity of food too. I teach english to poor locals for free. I've looked after the puppies people dump on us and watched them die. Given hope and support to the mentally ill and the desperate. Patrolled the Wat grounds at two in the morning trying to catch the yoms who steal our electric cable and copper piping for yaba and wondering how to deal with armed men non-violently in a language I don't speak. And the chances that anybody saw me and though 'Oh look, Phra Farang is smoking, we'd better start too!' are infinitessimally slim. Whatever damage I have caused is ameliorated by the massive amounts of tax I have paid. The life of this farang as a Monk is no masquerade. Thai Buddhism is what it is, and sometimes that means bloody and muddy, misunderstood and misjudged, powerless and alone. So give it a try. Or not. We all die regardless. Pax.

That's quite a post! Whilst my opinion on smoking hasn't changed I certainly respect you for writing what you did.

+1

[rockyysdt]

Purity in Dhamma practice and maintenance of the precepts is definately the way, but wouldn't a well maintained body have made his journey a lot easier?

Possibly easier in conventional terms, but would Ajahn Chah have got so far if he was attached to his body?

However, I think for most of us a well maintained body means a longer life and more time to practise.

Although many have deepened their experience by overcoming extreme pain, if it's discretionary I'd avoid it.

Isn't Dukkha bad enough without suffering through ones life with discretionary dental and physical issues?

This would have massive life long collateral effects to ones digestion, concentration levels, and flow on effects to ones moods, and feelings.

Attachment to body/ego would definately be a hindrance.

I subscribe to the middle path when it comes to maintenance of the body, avoiding a sedentary lifestyle (sloth and torpor), and, at the other extreme, avoiding obsessive work outs and body image (sensual desire).

Whilst on retreat my best meditative experiences came in the morning after an hour of yoga.

I like to think of my body as a machine which has been given to me in order to negotiate my way through life.

A practical exercise regime is a scientific way of getting the maximum we can from our bodies.

Isn't it better to work on overcoming our hinderances without adding more in our way?

Edited July 12, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Well my friend, get ordained and make a difference. I've sat in a ward full of old dying men trying to cheer them. We got knee deep in flood water helping those in trouble and donated a large quantity of food too. I teach english to poor locals for free. I've looked after the puppies people dump on us and watched them die. Given hope and support to the mentally ill and the desperate. Patrolled the Wat grounds at two in the morning trying to catch the yoms who steal our electric cable and copper piping for yaba and wondering how to deal with armed men non-violently in a language I don't speak. And the chances that anybody saw me and though 'Oh look, Phra Farang is smoking, we'd better start too!' are infinitessimally slim. Whatever damage I have caused is ameliorated by the massive amounts of tax I have paid. The life of this farang as a Monk is no masquerade. Thai Buddhism is what it is, and sometimes that means bloody and muddy, misunderstood and misjudged, powerless and alone. So give it a try. Or not. We all die regardless. Pax.

Does that mean you'll continue to smoke?

On a lighter note Several, I thought your comment about having paid massive amounts of tax on the funny side.

Depending on what your old country did with this tax (U.S. military budget/policies), this might affect the level of your amelioration, if any.

Edited July 12, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Lol, very true. Where did that money go? But I did avoid owning a car so at least avoided financing petrochemicals. I do intend to quit (again). The way I see it is smoking is bad but not all smokers are, just as Buddhism is good but alas not all Buddhists.

Also agree with Camerata. The body functional rather than the body beautiful. My body isn't a temple, but it is in one.

[Bosse137]

"The world is full of ignorence,wars....." Yes,really!! Especially ignorence... You are not likly to be able to stop any wars,but you should be able to quit your own smoking. That is,if you are not ignorent but aware of all the bad consequenses,for you self and,in a broader meaning,for the society at large.I do not try to make anybody quit;by all means,puff away till your lungs or heart give in! The reason why laymen give cigarettes to monks,is of course,that they know,that monks want it.Is it really to much to expect,that monks can,by their own good will,try to be a good example to others,especially the young,and lay off smoking...?I accept that others have other opinions on this subject,but for me it is clear:a monk who can`t control his mind enough to live without the "stimuli" of tobac,is in my eyes not a monk.Next to one of our fields do we have a wat.The monks have TV,mobils and smoke.What else they might do I do not know,and do not care about either,but one can not help thinking;why do these people live in a wat,mascerading as monks,if they want to live an ordinary life?! Could it be,that it is a nice existence with few worries? Actually I know of some,that were a lazy bunch and did not want to do something useful;they became monks..Let me add,that I am certain,that most of monks a good,honest people,whith an important roll.That is exactly why I am sad to see,when the few spoil the good image of Buddhismen!

Well my friend, get ordained and make a difference. I've sat in a ward full of old dying men trying to cheer them. We got knee deep in flood water helping those in trouble and donated a large quantity of food too. I teach english to poor locals for free. I've looked after the puppies people dump on us and watched them die. Given hope and support to the mentally ill and the desperate. Patrolled the Wat grounds at two in the morning trying to catch the yoms who steal our electric cable and copper piping for yaba and wondering how to deal with armed men non-violently in a language I don't speak. And the chances that anybody saw me and though 'Oh look, Phra Farang is smoking, we'd better start too!' are infinitessimally slim. Whatever damage I have caused is ameliorated by the massive amounts of tax I have paid. The life of this farang as a Monk is no masquerade. Thai Buddhism is what it is, and sometimes that means bloody and muddy, misunderstood and misjudged, powerless and alone. So give it a try. Or not. We all die regardless. Pax.

Well.I must say,as impessive as your tale is,I do not think anybody has to be ordained to do what you do/ did...There are many exampels of people,not ordained,who do a lot of unselfish deeds and not even tell about it.Finally on smoking:It might be,that you do not cause any harm,but you do certainly not do anybody any good either by puffing away.Least yourself.But, like they say here in Thailand;"up to you"!