Russia, China Veto Un Security Council Resolution On Syria

[Credo]

The region is replete with people whose lives have been dominated by violence. It's not difficult to find those who are attracted to areas where there is fighting.

Fighting is the opiate of the region.

[GiHadOrange]

i take great delight at watching the frustration of the US Ambassador each time

they are vetoed

Thank god for Russia and China

Yes, China and Russia treat their citizens so well and are such serious advocates for the human rights of the citizens of their country.

China and Russia could give a crap less about anything in that region except who controls the oil. China gets some oil from Syria and both China and Russia get nervous the more influence USA has over region.

So nice you place economic interests over the deprivation of human rights and condone the whole sale slaughter of thousands if innocent civilians. I guess as long as it does not affect you . . .

Another Russia and China bashing and that simplified they only want oil argument.

[Gary A]

I'm an American and I don't consider that I am bashing the US. I happen to agree with Russia and China. I do wish that the US would stop trying to be the world's policeman. The politicians can't run their own country efficiently so why try to run other countries.

[Scott]

This is what the OP says:

United Nations (UN) Security Council (UNSC) resolution that would have threatened the Syrian government with new sanctions

I don't know that there is any resolution to intervene or for the US to become directly involved. At least not based on the resolution.

[GiHadOrange]

This is what the OP says:

United Nations (UN) Security Council (UNSC) resolution that would have threatened the Syrian government with new sanctions

I don't know that there is any resolution to intervene or for the US to become directly involved. At least not based on the resolution.

This is what the White House Press Secretary had said: " to do everything we can to bring about a future in Syria that does not include (President) Bashar al-Assad."

[Morch]

why cant they make a peoples referendum in such cases...

put up the ballots, supervice the vote by the UN, and ask the people what they want...

if the majority wants a change to democracy, which should be supported by the world, then the current ruler has to step down - no discussion...

What is going on in Syria right now is a referendum. And had the majority wanted change then change would have occured along time ago. It is just that some people cannot/do not want to come to terms with the fact that the majority of Syrians are Assad loyalists. FACT!!!

How would you know it to be a fact? Does Syria hold free elections, poles, referendums, or practice freedom of speech and press?

As for changing things, Asad senior gave them something to think about last time.

I think even most Alawis wouldn't mourn Assad's late brother-in-law, Asef Shawkat.

[Morch]

Assad has slaughtered something like 17,000 of his own people. THAT is what it is all about.

I believe the casualty figures tossed around include both sides, not just those attributed to the Syrian regime.

[Morch]

Assad has slaughtered something like 17,000 of his own people. THAT is what it is all about.

but that is because the West has been ' fanning the flames ' in the words

of the Russian Ambassador

If the Russian ambassador said it, it must be true. After all, those people in the Middle East, they have no will of their own, more like drones really, aren't they?

[Morch]

Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows. I'm sure Israel for instance would be delighted in action were taken to depose Assad if it were indeed a precursor to action against Iran. However there is a dilemma, namely the rebels who are trying to depose Assad may turn out to be a Muslim brotherhood lead coalition, which seems to hold no fears for the current U.S administration, but I'm not sure Israel, or Jordan for that matter would be so sanguine, Jordan fearing a domino effect.

What a tangled web, and though it is heartbreaking that so many people are suffering there is no guarantee they would end up with anything better when the smoke clears.

Edit: And to illustrate my last point.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18930876

There are 304,000 active personnel in the Syrian Army and 342,500 reserves . How many rebels are there

exactly ? I can' t see how a group of rebels can win against an army of 640,000 - without

Western intervention.....?

And if that happens let us not forget Russia's warning just a few weeks ago in May

http://www.reuters.c...E84G18M20120517

The actual number of fighting personnel, in every army, is quite low.

Desertions, low motivation, and lack of training and shoddy gear (other than elite units) take their toll on a performance.

[Jingthing]

I'm an American and I don't consider that I am bashing the US. I happen to agree with Russia and China. I do wish that the US would stop trying to be the world's policeman. The politicians can't run their own country efficiently so why try to run other countries.

This isn't about the US being the world's policemen. This is about the US working with the United Nations towards a shared goal. The US being the world's policeman would be sending in the Marines.

[GiHadOrange]

Assad has slaughtered something like 17,000 of his own people. THAT is what it is all about.

I believe the casualty figures tossed around include both sides, not just those attributed to the Syrian regime.

Its also only a figure the insurgents came up with:

"The UN estimates that more than 10,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in Syria and tens of thousands displaced since the uprising against President al-Assad began nearly 1.5 year ago. The opposition believes the number of deaths has already surpassed 17,000."

Edited July 22, 2012 by GiHadOrange

[coma]

I'm an American and I don't consider that I am bashing the US. I happen to agree with Russia and China. I do wish that the US would stop trying to be the world's policeman. The politicians can't run their own country efficiently so why try to run other countries.

This isn't about the US being the world's policemen. This is about the US working with the United Nations towards a shared goal. The US being the world's policeman would be sending in the Marines.

What ? What a laughable statement. Like they worked with the UN on Iraq ? Or like the way they turn a UN endorsed no fly zone in Libya into a full blown man hunt for Gaddaffi ? Rubbish. The US would love to go into Syria all guns blazing but they know that firstly , they will get their <deleted> kicked. And secondly, there is no better alternative to the current governement considering the Syrian opposition have been infiltrated [ some may say blatantly made up of] by a large numbers of foriegn terrorists whom have their own ideas on the future of Syria. And that doesn't included being all chummy with the US and her allies.

[coma]

why cant they make a peoples referendum in such cases...

put up the ballots, supervice the vote by the UN, and ask the people what they want...

if the majority wants a change to democracy, which should be supported by the world, then the current ruler has to step down - no discussion...

What is going on in Syria right now is a referendum. And had the majority wanted change then change would have occured along time ago. It is just that some people cannot/do not want to come to terms with the fact that the majority of Syrians are Assad loyalists. FACT!!!

How would you know it to be a fact? Does Syria hold free elections, poles, referendums, or practice freedom of speech and press?

As for changing things, Asad senior gave them something to think about last time.

I think even most Alawis wouldn't mourn Assad's late brother-in-law, Asef Shawkat.

Because if it was not the case. Then Assad would have been overthrown a long time ago. You don't need democracy to have the majority rule.

Edited July 22, 2012 by coma

[GiHadOrange]

This is about the US working with the United Nations towards a shared goal. The US being the world's policeman would be sending in the Marines.

What shared goal?

VITALY CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, SAYING:

"The sponsors of this project that just failed have attempted to fan the flames of confrontation in the Security Council. The draft which was just voted on was biased. The threats of sanctions were leveled exclusively at the government of Syria. This runs counter to the spirit of the Geneva document and does not reflect the realities in the country today."

That the "fan the flames" comment above. It was not about some flames in Syria. but about how to work together or against each other at the UN.

It was not the first resolution on Syria Russia and China voted against. Russia and China made their concern clear, those who drafted this resolution (United Kingdom, Germany, the United States, and France) had know that beforehand.

[simple1]

why cant they make a peoples referendum in such cases...

put up the ballots, supervice the vote by the UN, and ask the people what they want...

if the majority wants a change to democracy, which should be supported by the world, then the current ruler has to step down - no discussion...

What is going on in Syria right now is a referendum. And had the majority wanted change then change would have occured along time ago. It is just that some people cannot/do not want to come to terms with the fact that the majority of Syrians are Assad loyalists. FACT!!!

How would you know it to be a fact? Does Syria hold free elections, poles, referendums, or practice freedom of speech and press?

As for changing things, Asad senior gave them something to think about last time.

I think even most Alawis wouldn't mourn Assad's late brother-in-law, Asef Shawkat.

Because if it was not the case. Then Assad would have been overthrown a long time ago. You don't need democracy to have the majority rule.

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

[Morch]

why cant they make a peoples referendum in such cases...

put up the ballots, supervice the vote by the UN, and ask the people what they want...

if the majority wants a change to democracy, which should be supported by the world, then the current ruler has to step down - no discussion...

What is going on in Syria right now is a referendum. And had the majority wanted change then change would have occured along time ago. It is just that some people cannot/do not want to come to terms with the fact that the majority of Syrians are Assad loyalists. FACT!!!

How would you know it to be a fact? Does Syria hold free elections, poles, referendums, or practice freedom of speech and press?

As for changing things, Asad senior gave them something to think about last time.

I think even most Alawis wouldn't mourn Assad's late brother-in-law, Asef Shawkat.

Because if it was not the case. Then Assad would have been overthrown a long time ago. You don't need democracy to have the majority rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

Toppling dictators is only easy if you have a real tough looking guy as your avatar.

[coma]

@ Morch

Toppling dictators is only easy if you have a real tough looking guy as your avatar.

Hahahaha. Good come back. Epic!!

[coma]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

[Morch]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

What Syrian people would those be?

Everyone that fights against the regime is a foreign terrorist?

Asserting that there was no home-grown long standing resentment of the Syrian regime is ridiculous. Same goes for each one of the countries that faced an upheaval during the so-called "Arab Spring". That there were (and are) outside influences and aid is pretty obvious, but to disregard the local sentiment as a driving force goes over the top.

[coma]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

What Syrian people would those be?

Everyone that fights against the regime is a foreign terrorist?

Asserting that there was no home-grown long standing resentment of the Syrian regime is ridiculous. Same goes for each one of the countries that faced an upheaval during the so-called "Arab Spring". That there were (and are) outside influences and aid is pretty obvious, but to disregard the local sentiment as a driving force goes over the top.

I am definately not saying there is no home grown resentment of the Assad government. But the likes that carry out such calculated attacks on high profile individuals or detonate cars bombs that level entire city blocks killing and wound hundreds are NOT your everyday disgruntled Syrian citizens holding up signs demanding change.

[Scott]

Would outsiders have the kind of knowledge to carry out such attacks?

[simple1]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

Personally I am unclear on your position. From your posts it appears that you are a supporter of Assad; have I misinterpreted your posts?. Regards Al Qaeda yes they have an ideology, but it's also an organisation that provides logistics and people for attacks, whether it be Al Qaeda active members or affiliated groups. It is interesting that one of the most effective counter terrorism campaigns against Al Qaeda was by the Saudi government when they were critised by the ideologues and attacked by Al Qaeda operatives.

Edited July 22, 2012 by simple1

[GiHadOrange]

I looked some data up for that: Country XY is only interested in Syrias oil argument.

Syria's share in the global oil production is 0.48% . Thats little bit more than Thailand which holds a share of 0.45% on the global oil production.

Syrian crude oil exports go almost entirely to OECD European countries, in particular Germany (32%), Italy(31%), France(11%), the Netherlands(9%), Austria (7%), Spain (5%), Turkey(5%) and others(1%).

http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=SY

[Naam]

This thread seems to be more about America bashing than any sincere interest for the people of Syria.

What is "America bashing"?

In the United States, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney described China's and Russia's veto as deplorable and regrettable. ...

He added: "Those nations that vetoed the measure are on the wrong side of history ...

and Hilarious Clinton threatens publicly "Russia and China will pay a price!"

[Morch]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

What Syrian people would those be?

Everyone that fights against the regime is a foreign terrorist?

Asserting that there was no home-grown long standing resentment of the Syrian regime is ridiculous. Same goes for each one of the countries that faced an upheaval during the so-called "Arab Spring". That there were (and are) outside influences and aid is pretty obvious, but to disregard the local sentiment as a driving force goes over the top.

I am definately not saying there is no home grown resentment of the Assad government. But the likes that carry out such calculated attacks on high profile individuals or detonate cars bombs that level entire city blocks killing and wound hundreds are NOT your everyday disgruntled Syrian citizens holding up signs demanding change.

Military service in Syria is obligatory. Quite a few of those opposed to Assad had some sort of training. Reports of desertions are also frequent.

If you read the link provided earlier, you'll realize there should be no shortage of people who had close family members massacred, executed or otherwise hurt by the Syrian regime - couple that with a religion that glorifies martyrdom and a culture that places some importance on family honor and revenge.

[coma]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

Personally I am unclear on your position. From your posts it appears that you are a supporter of Assad; have I misinterpreted your posts?. Regards Al Qaeda yes they have an ideology, but it's also an organisation that provides logistics and people for attacks, whether it be Al Qaeda active members or affiliated groups. It is interesting that one of the most effective counter terrorism campaigns against Al Qaeda was by the Saudi government when they were critised by the ideologues and attacked by Al Qaeda operatives.

I am not for or against Assad. But, as I have posted on other threads in the past, I am of the strong belief that 'sadly' some races in this world need to be ruled with an iron fist. Especially Arabs. Therefore with regards to the Syrian situation I see any potential near term interim peace coming only in the form of Assad and his government. Without such control just breeds lawless enviroments which terror groups and other criminals thrive in.

[Morch]

I looked some data up for that: Country XY is only interested in Syrias oil argument.

Syria's share in the global oil production is 0.48% . Thats little bit more than Thailand which holds a share of 0.45% on the global oil production.

Syrian crude oil exports go almost entirely to OECD European countries, in particular Germany (32%), Italy(31%), France(11%), the Netherlands(9%), Austria (7%), Spain (5%), Turkey(5%) and others(1%).

http://www.eia.gov/c...cab.cfm?fips=SY

Syria is not a big oil producer, but would make a very good choice if you wanted to use a land pipe from Iraq, or even further.

[coma]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

What Syrian people would those be?

Everyone that fights against the regime is a foreign terrorist?

Asserting that there was no home-grown long standing resentment of the Syrian regime is ridiculous. Same goes for each one of the countries that faced an upheaval during the so-called "Arab Spring". That there were (and are) outside influences and aid is pretty obvious, but to disregard the local sentiment as a driving force goes over the top.

I am definately not saying there is no home grown resentment of the Assad government. But the likes that carry out such calculated attacks on high profile individuals or detonate cars bombs that level entire city blocks killing and wound hundreds are NOT your everyday disgruntled Syrian citizens holding up signs demanding change.

Military service in Syria is obligatory. Quite a few of those opposed to Assad had some sort of training. Reports of desertions are also frequent.

If you read the link provided earlier, you'll realize there should be no shortage of people who had close family members massacred, executed or otherwise hurt by the Syrian regime - couple that with a religion that glorifies martyrdom and a culture that places some importance on family honor and revenge.

I sure do understand this. However if they [ those opposed ] were in such great numbers [ the majority] then why have they not been able to overthrow the Assad government ? Even with covert foriegn government support and the support of various terrorist operaters and groups, they are still nowhere near their objective of ousting him. In fact Assad seems to be growing in strength in recent months. I believe it is because his supporters are in greater numbers than non - supporters and they also seem to have greater resolve.

[Morch]

I sure do understand this. However if they [ those opposed ] were in such great numbers [ the majority] then why have they not been able to overthrow the Assad government ? Even with covert foriegn government support and the support of various terrorist operaters and groups, they are still nowhere near their objective of ousting him. In fact Assad seems to be growing in strength in recent months. I believe it is because his supporters are in greater numbers than non - supporters and they also seem to have greater resolve.

Assad Junior is not his dad. Wasn't even meant to be the successor. That's one major factor. A second one, not of lesser importance, is that media plays a huge role nowadays compared to the past - that goes both for information and communications. It was easier to keep a tab on things back then. Could list a few more, but those two are key, in my opinion.

Not sure which news you're receiving, if anything, Assad's situation is getting worse by the day. Recent reports are about fighting in upscale areas in Damascus, Curds taking control of large areas up North. The recent assassination cost him dearly in terms of leadership, ruthlessness and resolve. More a question of when, not if.

Assad still got armed forces to hang on and make it even bloodier, but not enough to take it back, I think. The most he can hope for is a stalemate, but that would probably mean he'll have to let go of the reins anyway.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Morch

[Steely Dan]

As already posted the Alawis sect comprises around 10% to 15% of the population and under Assad has had complete domination of internal politics, military & security forces and has until recently been able to suppress any opposition. That's more than likely why he has yet to be removed from power. it's got to be said the the so called Free Syrian Army leadership remains unclear on who are their sponsors and are doing a poor PR job.

See this thread: Syrian Defense Minister among officials killed in Damascus suicide attack

"attack was claimed by the Free Syrian Army "

Is this the crew you are talking about as to it "remaining unclear on who are their sponsors" ? Some would say Al qaeda. I am not a fan of this word being thrown around willy nilly as I see it as an ideology, not and organisation. So I will say terrorists. This is what Assad and the Syrian people are fighting. Terrorists.

What Syrian people would those be?

Everyone that fights against the regime is a foreign terrorist?

Asserting that there was no home-grown long standing resentment of the Syrian regime is ridiculous. Same goes for each one of the countries that faced an upheaval during the so-called "Arab Spring". That there were (and are) outside influences and aid is pretty obvious, but to disregard the local sentiment as a driving force goes over the top.

I think you can add the Syrian Christians and possibly apostates moderate sunni Muslims who would just like to run businesses to the pro-Assad camp - they may actually hate him but recognize a replacement would be even worse for them. Note that the name plaque for Syria at the U.N is Syria, not the Islamic republic of Syria.