Blocking Of Krabi Video Considered

[jaapfries]

As we say, in The Netherlands, - "You Make Your Bed, Now You Lie In It"

This young (19 !) year old girl went through a certifiable Hell and I, for one, can fully sympathize & support the reaction & response from her father.

If the Thai cops did their (trace-evidence etc.) jobs correctly - then there's no need for any silly "re-enactment" crap and the perpetrator of this horrible crime should be put in jail, for a long, long time !!

May Justice please be done . . . . . .

[metisdead]

A post flaming moderation has been removed.

[Gang Warily]

I am sorry but just an attempt to justify this situation is a discrace, there is no excuse for the the lowlife scum NOT to be in jail from day one. If we still want to be known as a turist paradise in the future then now is a good time to show the world what justice is. The people who thinks this is a attack on the tourist industry are the same causing harm by trying to hide and deny cases like this.

The comments from officials are for many tourists a severe case of CROSSING THE LINE on how NOT to handle a RAPE case.

Are you suggesting a tourist haven is one where people accused of crimes (including tourists) are to be called scum, convicted without trial and denied bail?

No, an arrest, a trial, and a long prison sentence would be appropriate. But will it happen? Depends on how much money the creton has to spread around, who he knows, and he his family is. Case closed.

Did you just wake up today to discover the rich, all around the world, can buy a different kind of justice than the poor? But in this case it would seem the facts are...

Foreign Women and boyfirend out at bar together.

Boyfriend leaves (possibly at girlfriends request according to one report)

Women hangs out drinking and eating with local who she then leaves with.

Women found with facial injuries reportedly from a motorbike accident.

At hospital doctor says she shows signs of being raped.

Women goes to police who pull up security video from the bar and women identifies her attacker.

Women leaves Thailand after making police report.

Police arrest suspect.

Court grants suspect bail (we don't know how much the bail is) against police wishes

Suspect is currently going to trial.

Am I missing something here or is it the same all song and dance of how police are corrupt and any Thai arrested for a crime (especially against a farang) is guilty while any farang acused of a crime (especially against was probably set up.

No Nisa you have hit the nail on the head. The usual format in Thailand is that when there is a high level crime which is giving the country what is seen as a lot of bad press the standard local action is to discredit the victim whether alive or dead.

This has happened in the murders of Kirsty Jones, Joe Masheder, Katherine Horton and Leo Del Pinto. (However in most cases all things come right at the end because Embassies in Bangkok talk to very senior officials in Bangkok)

Various suggestions are made about the victims moral behaviour and new things are slipped in - like 'they were seen holding hands' - etc' - the facial injuries were 'reported from a motorbike accident'. That's a good one -where did you get it from? And boyfriend leaves 'possibly at girlfriends request' - now there's real speculation not justified by anything the youing woman, father, or boyfriend has said.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Gang Warily

[animatic]

She was obviously very naive. It isn't her fault that no one warned her about possible problems in Thailand. Very sad.

Try the guy forthwith, issue a public statement about how the police will continue to work their socks off to protect tourists.

it is very sad, but what the hell was she thinking? She was patently very naive about how men can be, particularly in Thailand. My missus has and never will take a taxi late at night on her own anywhere in Thailand.

Your Mrs is Thai, she knows the country.. tourists are living the dream and believing its safe here because this is how it is projected.

That's it exactly the tourism dept goes to such efforts to hide the reality,

that poor naive girls like this actually believe it until it is too late.

They should be ashamed to perpetrate such a fraud in the name of tourism revenues.

And of course there is the usual muddying of the waters via inserted insinuations about the victim.

Why they think this is a positive I'll never know, and why setting a pathetically low bail for a very high crime is justified I also can never understand. But probably because it is easier to make it all disappear from sight faster. Appearances are much more important than justice. Unless the embassies are loudly involved in which case being seen to do something rises marginally in the judicial view.

Edited November 11, 2012 by animatic

[Gang Warily]

Amras there seem to be a few basic things you do not understand, but first the fact that the guy handed himself in and confessed was information given to the father I understand through the Netherlands Embassy or Andrew Drummond and came from police in Krabi who then were confident of a successful prosecution..

1. Comparing rape statistics between Thailand and the US is absurd. Very few people report rape to police in Thailand and go thru the courts. Its a matter settled locally.

2. Its not a matter of Thais accepting their lot. They have to. They have no choice the way the system works - unless they are influencial.

3. Very little here is transparent except some ministerial statements.

4. Thailand has the ability to 'express' court proceedings and did so in the case of the rape and murder of Katherine Horton on Koh Samui.

5. The Thai government has been promising for years to speed up its court system so justice delayed is not justice denied. It has failed to do so. At the moment if you are charged with a crime and go to trial - that trial could last several years if you plead not guilty - the record is I believe 22 years in a trial during which several lawyers, witnesses and defendants died before its conclusion.

The info about the tour guide confessing comes from the andrew drummond site. In the light of the tour guide pleading not guilty that confession may now be irrelevant and confessions made in police stations should be treated with caution. The latest story is now updated with the following.

UPDATE: The young woman's father said from Amsterdam tonight that in the light of a 'hallucinatory' statement made at Ministry level in Thailand he was now seeking advice from his own government which has been monitoring the case. He had been invited to take part in a major programme in Holland early next week and was now considering it. While his own government had not taken action, he said, he had been informed that the Swedish government was issuing a travel warning in relation to Krabi.

And finally Nisa is correct on one point. The father has not complained about police. He has complained about the justice system. And his daughter has already given evidence in court, as did Carly Reisig about the murder of Leo Del Pinto in Pai, Mae Hong Son Province.

Unfortunately unless it is in a report somewhere, it's considered hearsay. Second hand information get's twisted, not saying it has, but it can be. Is there any report anywhere that states he confessed to it originally? I haven't seen it (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would just like to read it). If I'm missing information all well and good. I'm not defending the actions at all, please don't think I am.

1. And I would of course count that most low income and regional occurrences don't get included (and occurs to Thais). My point was simply that in that figure it would include high profile (ie Bangkok) and tourist cases. My point was that this horrible thing happens everywhere and even in a civilized western country like the US it isn't/can't be stopped and happens extremely frequently. Thailand's still behind in many ways, we all know that, yet no one's up in arms about the fact the US has such a bad record of rape as well. If they can't fix it, or stop such a prevalence of it, how can anyone expect the "behind/backward" authorities in Thailand to be able to? That's the reality. Where's the magical solution. He hasn't got off it yet, he hasn't escaped trial or punishment. He only received bail. Jumping to conclusions (no matter what has happened in the past) is premature in this particular case. Is it not?

2. Thai's don't have to accept it, it's just that they do. I never said change would be easy, but it's happened with many countries before, it just needs more people to give a dam_n to get critical mass where it makes an impact.

3. I'd disagree. Corruption is blatant and obvious in all facets of Thai society. That's what I mean by transparent. Everyone know's what goes on and how it works. The same stuff happens elsewhere, however it is covered up much better that most people don't even see it, unless you dig.

4. Fair enough, however murder is a different situation to rape. Both bad, just clearly one is a completely different and worse matter than the other.

5. Yep and our politicians promise many things as well. What are the reasons for the long delays? Too many cases, inefficient court procedures. It's a huge system to fix and we all know how things are that need complete overhauls here. Change is slow.

As to the alleged confession. There is no 'evidence' in the strictest sense of the word of that. One journalist with an unamed source as 'police said'. If that is all there is to go on, I would say it is worth very little in any court of law. If it is in fact documented but has not been released, it's a different matter.

People do and are allowed to change their pleas in all democratic societies prior to appearing before a judge though.

I agree that he probably is guilty, but he has not been released or acquitted of any charges. The charges are still outstanding and it's been 6 weeks since he appeared in court. It isn't that long ago and it could still happen sooner than anyone thinks for his trial date to come up.

Maybe we should wait until something further happens before slamming down on this specific case as another failed case of the Thai justice system.?

Fine - but I have not described this case as 'another failed case of the Thai justice system'. Nor have I given any weight to the guide's confession.Further the woman in question was interview by a woman police ofiicer and this case was indeed expressed or fast tracked as a court session was arranged so she could give evidence before returning home.

The argument that horrible things happen elsewhere is neither here not there.But it would be fairer if you compared statistics with Holland and the culture the woman comes from!

If the police as they say firmly objected to bail - then the fault is with the Thai justice system. To criticise a judge in Thailand is on a par with criticising the main institution. The penalties are severe.

The fact is that unless these cases are raised to a high profile level they can go very very badly wrong.

General comments about Thailand and or western values in this context are all piffle. Female victims are as a rule disadvanted in Thailand hence the low rape reports. There are good organisations our there fighting for women's rights, victim's rights etc.

I would be much more alarmed about Thaksin, the police chief down in Krabi who says 'All these rapes are giving my men a headache'.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Gang Warily

[DocN]

I am sorry but just an attempt to justify this situation is a discrace, there is no excuse for the the lowlife scum NOT to be in jail from day one. If we still want to be known as a turist paradise in the future then now is a good time to show the world what justice is. The people who thinks this is a attack on the tourist industry are the same causing harm by trying to hide and deny cases like this.

The comments from officials are for many tourists a severe case of CROSSING THE LINE on how NOT to handle a RAPE case.

Are you suggesting a tourist haven is one where people accused of crimes (including tourists) are to be called scum, convicted without trial and denied bail?

No, an arrest, a trial, and a long prison sentence would be appropriate. But will it happen? Depends on how much money the creton has to spread around, who he knows, and he his family is. Case closed.

Did you just wake up today to discover the rich, all around the world, can buy a different kind of justice than the poor? But in this case it would seem the facts are...

Foreign Women and boyfirend out at bar together.

Boyfriend leaves (possibly at girlfriends request according to one report)

Women hangs out drinking and eating with local who she then leaves with.

Women found with facial injuries reportedly from a motorbike accident.

At hospital doctor says she shows signs of being raped.

Women goes to police who pull up security video from the bar and women identifies her attacker.

Women leaves Thailand after making police report.

Police arrest suspect.

Court grants suspect bail (we don't know how much the bail is) against police wishes

Suspect is currently going to trial.

Am I missing something here or is it the same all song and dance of how police are corrupt and any Thai arrested for a crime (especially against a farang) is guilty while any farang acused of a crime (especially against was probably set up.

It is HOW they deal wit it!

All of them!

It is not rape, because they had dinner!

Bringing up the accident as a cause for her injuries, overlooking the signs of rape!

Fearing more for the reputation of Thailand (what reputation, I may ask!?)n than showing ANY sign of empathy for the alleged victim!

Did you just wake up??

[tombkk]

Let's not derail into thinly-veiled personal attacks against posters. Keep it civil, please.

[robblok]

@

Gang Warily

I like your post they convey the situation good. I believe a lot of publicity like this is the only way to keep this from going wrong. I have heard to many things about indefinate bail.

I am doing my best to get some attention in the Dutch media. The more people know and protest the better chance that justice will be done.

[annabel]

NO doubt this scumbag raped and beat this poor girl

DK

DiamondKing you are a genius, without seeing any evidence or interviewing any witness you have decided that there is "No Doubt" that he's guilty of rape and beating the girl.

Well... who the hell needs a legal system when we have you? Why don't you sentence him as well...

The Thai guy admitted it!!!! He only later changed his story.

Exactly.... he admitted it and was arrested.... refer back to the TV of Nov 8th

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/596652-krabi-tourism-hit-by-dutch-video-clip/

Read the article where it clearly says :

"The father, a Dutch singer, made the clip to campaign for justice for his daughter, furious that a tourist guide, who had been arrested and reportedly confessed to raping his daughter, was freed on bail and retracted his testimony."

[mancub]

]

]

Rule-of-law is a cornerstone of democracy.

I hope you are not suggesting to not wait for the judge's decision and incite violence against somebody who has not been proven guilty.

I don't believe I,m suggesting or inciting anything of the kind....I'm merely expressing an opinion ...freedom of which being another cornerstone of Democracy .

Thanks for your clarification. I was worried for a moment there.

No cause for alarm ...my point being that local crimes are frequently dealt with by the locals ,in the local way ....police ,lawyers and the court just don't figure . Consensus among the Thai people I know being that if a Thai guy's 19yr old battered girlfiend told him that she had been raped , then he wouldn't bother to ask too many questions ....he would feel compelled to address this loss of face , probably with the help of a few friends .

I am in no way condoning such action ...just telling it as it is .

For a foreigner to act in similar fashion here ,one would have to have suicidal tendencies . Foreigners need to go through the correct channels ...paying the police etc etc and being subjected to the circus that it always turns into . Hence the anger ,borne out of frustration with the system !

[mac1970]

One day enough is enough and there will be no video or cover up good enough from government machine which would change course of the change, just locals who need to handle aftermath. Move back to countryside or try to compete with Philippinos internationally, which is doomed before started. Time to stand up and start to do something, just big question: who takes the brave first step? Country needs one crazy political and ideological hero who wins people's trust and there might be none in land of smiles...so here we go...and lot of sad stories will appear...

[LomSak27]

am doing my best to get some attention in the Dutch media. The more people know and protest the better chance that justice will be done

Good Job Robblok, hope for the best

[robblok]

am doing my best to get some attention in the Dutch media. The more people know and protest the better chance that justice will be done

Good Job Robblok, hope for the best

They started posting on a big Dutch message board, i believe even bigger then this one. I just added a few comments and linked to the stupid remarks of the tourist minister.

In the Netherlands i would have no problem with bail, because it means he will get procecuted eventually. Here bail could be indefinite if there is no public pressure. Also judges can be bought if there is nobody checking them.

I love this country but i know its wrongs too.

[Emdog]

"make Thailand look like a backward totalitarian state bent on mind control (controlling information and entertainment is draconian and is an attempt to control how a society thinks, it is a distortion and is always wrong)"

If the shoe, or sandal, fits..... then wear it

[mancub]

Good video, its sad that youtube now brings more justice in Thailand than the BIB

No it does not bring justice. Justice is when a court reaches a verdict, not when many people listen to only one side.

And many a court in many a land has reached a verdict that was unjust ! How many people have been wrongly incarcerated ..how many have court decisions have been influenced by things other than the facts ?

There is Justice per se , as determined by a court of law ....and there is the personal heart-felt justice being asked for by a father who believes that his daughter was beaten and raped .

You are eager to dismiss parts of the reported story as "hearsay " , yet you seem prepared to readily accept that it was 3 am ,she was very drunk and went with a complete stranger ?

It's hard to keep a an objective view ....personally I doubt this girl ( or many others ) would want to go through all this public drama if she didn't feel it necessary. I may be wrong and it may all turn out to be a publicity stunt ....but I ,personally ,subjective or one-sided if you like ,seriously doubt it .

[watcharacters]

Censorship in all its forms is wrong. If Thailand wants international respect they must get their fingers out of the internet and stop censoring - period (they block Rolling Stone magazine for crying out loud)! As someone else said, by censoring this issue, it will aid it going viral and make Thailand look like a backward totalitarian state bent on mind control (controlling information and entertainment is draconian and is an attempt to control how a society thinks, it is a distortion and is always wrong). How's that for promoting tourism.

Does the center of the universe seek respect?

[Amras]

NO doubt this scumbag raped and beat this poor girl

DK

DiamondKing you are a genius, without seeing any evidence or interviewing any witness you have decided that there is "No Doubt" that he's guilty of rape and beating the girl.

Well... who the hell needs a legal system when we have you? Why don't you sentence him as well...

The Thai guy admitted it!!!! He only later changed his story.

Exactly.... he admitted it and was arrested.... refer back to the TV of Nov 8th

http://www.thaivisa....tch-video-clip/

Read the article where it clearly says :

"The father, a Dutch singer, made the clip to campaign for justice for his daughter, furious that a tourist guide, who had been arrested and reportedly confessed to raping his daughter, was freed on bail and retracted his testimony."

Sorry but words matter. Reportedly does not mean something is known to be 100% factual. Hence why they use the word. If it was known as a fact, it would be written differently. Words DO MATTER.

[onthemoon]

Good video, its sad that youtube now brings more justice in Thailand than the BIB

No it does not bring justice. Justice is when a court reaches a verdict, not when many people listen to only one side.

And many a court in many a land has reached a verdict that was unjust ! How many people have been wrongly incarcerated ..how many have court decisions have been influenced by things other than the facts ?

There is Justice per se , as determined by a court of law ....and there is the personal heart-felt justice being asked for by a father who believes that his daughter was beaten and raped .

You are eager to dismiss parts of the reported story as "hearsay " , yet you seem prepared to readily accept that it was 3 am ,she was very drunk and went with a complete stranger ?

It's hard to keep a an objective view ....personally I doubt this girl ( or many others ) would want to go through all this public drama if she didn't feel it necessary. I may be wrong and it may all turn out to be a publicity stunt ....but I ,personally ,subjective or one-sided if you like ,seriously doubt it .

The the first part of your posting: Do you really believe mob rule is the answer?

To the second part: No, I didn't dismiss anything or classified it as hearsay. I said that we have not heard the other side of the story. Or would you deny that the discussion here is biased?

[Amras]

Fine - but I have not described this case as 'another failed case of the Thai justice system'. Nor have I given any weight to the guide's confession.Further the woman in question was interview by a woman police ofiicer and this case was indeed expressed or fast tracked as a court session was arranged so she could give evidence before returning home.

The argument that horrible things happen elsewhere is neither here not there.But it would be fairer if you compared statistics with Holland and the culture the woman comes from!

If the police as they say firmly objected to bail - then the fault is with the Thai justice system. To criticise a judge in Thailand is on a par with criticising the main institution. The penalties are severe.

The fact is that unless these cases are raised to a high profile level they can go very very badly wrong.

General comments about Thailand and or western values in this context are all piffle. Female victims are as a rule disadvanted in Thailand hence the low rape reports. There are good organisations our there fighting for women's rights, victim's rights etc.

I would be much more alarmed about Thaksin, the police chief down in Krabi who says 'All these rapes are giving my men a headache'.

No you haven't, but most posters here are acting like he has got away with it. But he still hasn't.

Whether or not people agree that he should be released on bail is a matter of opinion. Judges all over the world make these judgement calls daily. Based on 'flight' risk, state of jails (ie over crowded), the plea of the accused etc etc. It is a judges prerogative to make this call. And we do see that other accused rapists do get bail. It's not a rare occurrence, like EVERYONE here is making it out to be. The fault isn't with the Thai justice system as they did what other systems around the world would do, grant bail of an accused who pleaded (in front of the judge) as not guilty.

I don't see how people are missing this major point!

I also honestly don't care what has happened in previous cases because we are not discussing them here. In this case, as Nisa has pointed out. I see no corruption, no bad police work. Most of the stuff written in here is based on assumptions and hot headedness about being up in arms because a foreigner was attacked.

If you don't agree with the bail, that's everyone's choice and happens everywhere around the world. As I have said before (and Nisa as well), no where does it say he has gotten away with it. People are jumping the gun on this case and assuming he will (get away with it) and beginning the Thai hatred already without any evidence to this happening.

He is still on trial, still waiting to appear for his court date. Where is the injustice so far?

(You also 'may' be missing one simple fact about the rape reports in Thailand. For Thai's and foreigners it is pretty easy to find someone if you really want to engage in that sort of activity, compared to other places around the world, which may account for the perceived low incidents of rape reports. Yes female victims are disadvantaged here, but in the west male victims are disadvantaged, because no one believes they could be victims. Stats are just used as an indication to the prevalence of a particular scenario. What I was trying to highlight is that there is such an anti-Thai hatred bashing movement on here at any chance there is, that people seem to forget that often these things happen back home at the same level or worse. Hence the degree of Thai hatred I honestly don't understand. )

[watcharacters]

It's alive and well on youtube.

[spidermike007]

Well, the sad part of all this, is that this level of denial only makes the situation worse. If the denial was done with a level of cunning, skill, or subtlety, all skills most Thai men lack, it would be different. But, it is always handled in such an ignorant, and clumsy manner, that the entire planet sees right through the cover up, from moment one. Thailand has a long way to go, when it comes to being skillful about their devient social skills, and denial. Now, the entire planet sees the cover up, and just winces at how poorly it was handled. And does anyone further up the food chain get involved? Only when tourism sinks. Hopefully they can continue to get the word out there, and tarnish the reputation of the LOS even more. Only through pain and suffering can one grow. Does that apply to the LOS?

[evadgib]

Applicable link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQXjgz4d7l4

I have no idea what they're saying (yet) but the words "shot" & "foot" spring to mind.

[watcharacters]

Well, the sad part of all this, is that this level of denial only makes the situation worse. If the denial was done with a level of cunning, skill, or subtlety, all skills most Thai men lack, it would be different. But, it is always handled in such an ignorant, and clumsy manner, that the entire planet sees right through the cover up, from moment one. Thailand has a long way to go, when it comes to being skillful about their devient social skills, and denial. Now, the entire planet sees the cover up, and just winces at how poorly it was handled. And does anyone further up the food chain get involved? Only when tourism sinks. Hopefully they can continue to get the word out there, and tarnish the reputation of the LOS even more. Only through pain and suffering can one grow. Does that apply to the LOS?

I'm not sure I'd ever hope for or expect "justice" in LOL. It seems to be pretty elusive.

[LomSak27]

Looks like the Krabi police have released pictures of the rapist and victim. Public relations trumps police investigations any time in the Magic Kingdom. While this may work in Thailand, the audience is in europe and the world and they might find this new video freakingly abhorently ugly.

Major faceloss for the Boys in Brown

Edited November 11, 2012 by LomSak27

[Gang Warily]

Looks like the Krabi police have released pictures of the rapist and victim. Public relations trumps police investigations any time in the Magic Kingdom. While this may work in Thailand, the audience is in europe and the world and they might find this new video freakingly abhorently ugly.

Major faceloss for the Boys in Brown

I agree. They have identifed the victim twice and from viewing the still alone it looks like they are now giving the impression she was up for it. Its very much tit for tat. This one will not go viral. They should have sung it perhaps. (No thats a joke. no comments please)

[onthemoon]

Applicable link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQXjgz4d7l4

I have no idea what they're saying (yet) but the words "shot" & "foot" spring to mind.

You have no idea what they are saying and you judge anyway? It is you who shot himself in the foot, methinks.

The police are explaining what they have done and that they are following the law. The law may be different in the NL, but they have to follow Thai law. The NL embassy have been following up with the police on a constant basis and perfectly understand this.

But then, you have made up your mind about the Thai police already and probably don't want to be confused with facts. My apologies.

[onthemoon]

Looks like the Krabi police have released pictures of the rapist and victim. Public relations trumps police investigations any time in the Magic Kingdom. While this may work in Thailand, the audience is in europe and the world and they might find this new video freakingly abhorently ugly.

Major faceloss for the Boys in Brown

One cannot condone mob rule and then criticize it if people do what the mob wants.

Edited November 11, 2012 by onthemoon

[mrtoad]

I saw on AD's website that The Krabi BIB have released a video on You Tube identifying the alleged victim, and trying to defend their image. Not exactly a good idea really, but I guess they are desperate to try to look good and not lose face.

[mrtoad]

Looks like the Krabi police have released pictures of the rapist and victim. Public relations trumps police investigations any time in the Magic Kingdom. While this may work in Thailand, the audience is in europe and the world and they might find this new video freakingly abhorently ugly.

Major faceloss for the Boys in Brown

I agree. They have identifed the victim twice and from viewing the still alone it looks like they are now giving the impression she was up for it. Its very much tit for tat. This one will not go viral. They should have sung it perhaps. (No thats a joke. no comments please)

It looks like a way of discrediting the alleged victim, and a childish reply to what they seem to think was a loss of face with the Evil Man of Krabi song.

[a99az]

If they try to block it, I for one will post it in every place I can. Then include it in our public play list. If every one did the same!! Think I will start now by posting a link to it for everyone in my contacts list. Why don't you?