Gaza Crisis: Un's Ban Calls For Ceasefire After Israeli Airstrike Kills Civilians

[softgeorge]

Israel has to back off.

[geriatrickid]

Speaks for itself really.

http://www.infowars....eli-air-strike/

Yes, the part that reads " Meanwhile, residents of the besieged Gaza Strip say they are getting text messages warning of military escalation as reports suggest that Israeli military forces are preparing for a ground invasion of Gaza." I find it remarkable that the Israelis provide advance notice in arabic to a hostile group. Does Islamic Jihad/Hamas provide such a warning before launching its missiles? Does Assad show the restraint of the Israelis when he slaughters his own? Equally remarkable is that the Gaza events come to a head just as the pressure was mounting on Assad and his friends in Iran. And now Ban, leader of the UN, the organization that stood by with its collective thumbs up their <deleted> during the Sri Lankan conflict weighs in.

[geriatrickid]

Israel has to back off.

Why? What part of missiles being launched from Gaza do you not understand?

[softgeorge]

A big sticking point is the UN upgrade of Palestine's status to a non-member state

which will also allow Palestinians to file complaints at the International Criminal Court.

The world has voted on this & it is clearly going to happen

I seriously doubt this has much to do with the Palestinian UN bid.

The Hamas isn't exactly supportive of the PA's move, and wasn't a major part (if at all) of the international effort concerning this.

When Israel goes against the Palestinians, the usual result on the international diplomatic front is increased support for the Palestinian cause. If anything, an invasion will improve the Palestinian chances of getting their way.

Not that savvy on the legal issue you brought up, but as far as I understand this goes both ways - might explain why the Hamas leadership isn't all that in favor. Either way, this doesn't seem to be a major issue from the Israeli point of view, rarely comes up in the media.

I have to agree Palastine is recieving growing international support not just politically but also from the man in the street. Israels constant actions and killing of kids is not wining friends.

[Morch]

Israel has to back off.

Why? What part of missiles being launched from Gaza do you not understand?

Israel has been persecuting the palistinians for 50 yrs. I am not Jewish, Arabic or muslim and have no affilation with any religious or ethnic group in the region just looking at it from outside. israel is an occupying force on thier lands and they are trying to starve the palistinians to death with the inhumane blockades and restrictions of basic human freedoms so naturally the palistinians are going to bite back. If Israel would retreat from Palistine lands then there will be peace

I'll comment just on one point - "trying to starve the Palestinians to death with the inhumane blockade". Here's what an NGO that was quoted on the previous topic has to say about the food situation:

"There is no shortage of food in Gaza, but severe poverty has increased over years of closure and because of travel restrictions....

Israel allows all goods into the Gaza Strip except for items it defines as dual use and basic construction materials (cement, steel and gravel)." http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/Info_Gaza_Eng.pdf

Doesn't mean things are good down there, but might as well drop the starvation card.

[Scott]

Please stick to the topic, which is about the current Gaza crisis.

[Morch]

Speaks for itself really.

http://www.infowars....eli-air-strike/

Yes, the part that reads " Meanwhile, residents of the besieged Gaza Strip say they are getting text messages warning of military escalation as reports suggest that Israeli military forces are preparing for a ground invasion of Gaza." I find it remarkable that the Israelis provide advance notice in arabic to a hostile group. Does Islamic Jihad/Hamas provide such a warning before launching its missiles? Does Assad show the restraint of the Israelis when he slaughters his own? Equally remarkable is that the Gaza events come to a head just as the pressure was mounting on Assad and his friends in Iran. And now Ban, leader of the UN, the organization that stood by with its collective thumbs up their <deleted> during the Sri Lankan conflict weighs in.

Unfortunately, wars in our region have become like a race, so each war is to cover another one. In other words, these wars are nothing more than a move to escape forward. Therefore what is happening in Gaza is escaping forward, particularly in the hope of saving al-Assad or at least ensuring that the cost of toppling him will be greater for everybody. The greatest architect of such wars is Iran, from the unmanned Ayoub drone, not to mention all the attempts in the Sinai Peninsula.

http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=31846

Disclaimer - Asharq Alawsat is Saudi owned.

[Morch]

Palestinians and Israelis agree on a truce but disagree on implementation: Al Arabiya sources

Hamas stipulates immediate ceasefire but Israel demands two-stage truce: Al Arabiya sources

https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Eng

[simple1]

I have to say that with 500+ bombing strikes by the IDF in the current situation the estimated 100 deaths in Gaza does demonstrate very careful targeting. It is not indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets. If that were the case the deaths would be a lot higher as the civilians do not have air raid warnings, shelters and so on.

I understand that the Israeli government will soon be considering the latest offer by Hamas, after discussions in Egypt, to cease their attacks should the Israelis agree to lift the Gaza blockade. More than than likely further negotiation on T&C's, but at least some official dialogue is happening

EDIT: posted after the one above - talks seem to be moving rapidly

Edited November 19, 2012 by simple1

[Chicog]

I have to say that with 500+ bombing strikes by the IDF in the current situation the estimated 100 deaths in Gaza does demonstrate very careful targeting. It is not indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets. If that were the case the deaths would be a lot higher as the civilians do not have air raid warnings, shelters and so on.

I understand that the Israeli government will soon be considering the latest offer by Hamas, after discussions in Egypt, to cease their attacks should the Israelis agree to lift the Gaza blockade. More than than likely further negotiation on T&C's, but at least some official dialogue is happening

EDIT: posted after the one above - talks seem to be moving rapidly

Which can only be good news.

[Jingthing]

Israel is actually a state not a country.

I don't get your point. I tend to use nation / state / country interchangeably meaning the same basic thing. You might want to expand on that. Edited November 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[metisdead]

A post with overly emotive comments has been removed as well as the replies.

[Steely Dan]

Ok now for my view on this;

Israel has the right to defend themselves. Their problem is proportionality.

Proportionality? So what? If Hamas is on the losing end of proportionality, then they should be all for a peaceful solution. That's the way war works.

If you attack someone with nothing more than a club, are they obligated to not use the gun they keep for self defense but instead seek out a club of equal size and weight to yours? Of course not.

Hamas cannot win the war with weapons, so they try to win the war via public relations by launching rockets from civilian areas so that Israeli counter strikes kill women and children.

Premeditated self-harm is a strategy employed by self-immolating Tibetan monks or Palestinians by proxy on behalf of their respected leaders. That is where the parallel ends though seeing as Tibet was

indeed annexed by China, whereas the Israelis unilaterally moved out of Gaza. Any rational group not obsessed with wiping out their neighbor would quit while they are ahead following the Israeli withdrawal. Imagine if the Chinese actually pulled out of Tibet, would the Tibetans then fire missiles from the Tibetan plateau into the rest of China? That in a nutshell shows Israel are not and never have been dealing with a rational neighbor.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Steely Dan

[kblaze]

Ok now for my view on this;

Israel has the right to defend themselves. Their problem is proportionality.

Proportionality? So what? If Hamas is on the losing end of proportionality, then they should be all for a peaceful solution. That's the way war works.

If you attack someone with nothing more than a club, are they obligated to not use the gun they keep for self defense but instead seek out a club of equal size and weight to yours? Of course not.

Hamas cannot win the war with weapons, so they try to win the war via public relations by launching rockets from civilian areas so that Israeli counter strikes kill women and children.

The below drawings are meant to be critical of Israel but I don't see it that way. It does however illustrate why Hamas needs to seek a peaceful solution.

Im saying it hurts Israel. War is terrible and you are entitled to a win at all costs mentality in war. But you have to accept what comes after the destruction. Namely, is your support base (USA) going to remain as faithful? Will the Palestinians' support base grow? Collateral isn't important in achieving your immediate goal in a battle. But it matters if you rely on the help of others.

[Morch]

Sidon, Lebanon: Two katyusha rockets aimed at Israel and set to launch were discovered Monday in the Southern region of Mazraat Halta, near the occupied Kfar Shuba Hills, a security source told The Daily Star. The source said the rockets were defused by security forces. According to the source, attempts to launch rockets from Lebanon to Israel occur every time there is an aggression against Gaza.

http://www.dailystar...x#axzz2CgVgoKJF

Edited November 19, 2012 by Morch

[cdnvic]

Some propaganda posters removed. Lets at least try to stay factual rather than just choosing up sides here.

[lemoncake]

Ok now for my view on this;

Israel has the right to defend themselves. Their problem is proportionality.

Proportionality? So what? If Hamas is on the losing end of proportionality, then they should be all for a peaceful solution. That's the way war works.

If you attack someone with nothing more than a club, are they obligated to not use the gun they keep for self defense but instead seek out a club of equal size and weight to yours? Of course not.

Hamas cannot win the war with weapons, so they try to win the war via public relations by launching rockets from civilian areas so that Israeli counter strikes kill women and children.

The below drawings are meant to be critical of Israel but I don't see it that way. It does however illustrate why Hamas needs to seek a peaceful solution.

Im saying it hurts Israel. War is terrible and you are entitled to a win at all costs mentality in war. But you have to accept what comes after the destruction. Namely, is your support base (USA) going to remain as faithful? Will the Palestinians' support base grow? Collateral isn't important in achieving your immediate goal in a battle. But it matters if you rely on the help of others.

so what is the alternative? sit and wait to be wiped out? or perhaps give more privileges to those who openly state they want you dead.

proportional response? would that be rocket for a rocket?,aimed ONLY at civilians? would that be proportional and gain more support?

Palestinians are good at propaganda and pointing fingers, they start to fire rockets, blame Israel, they do not have enough money to support their corruption-blame Israel. Perhaps if less money was wasted on rockets, there would be more money for the people.

Hamas is good and firing rockets, why have they not bothered to build shelters for its citizens? Because civilian death toll benefits them.

Why do they store rockets in schools, and apartments?-because death toll benefits them,

Just now, out in the news, that building where family of 10 was killed, was actually also where 4 jihad commanders were hiding. 2 have been killed and this is confirmed by Palestinians(on Al jazeera now)

So if Gaza Government does not care about its own people, and does not protect them, why should Israel? and why should Israeli's suffer?

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

[Samuimike1]

The world get angry.

[nurofiend]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that may be the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

Edited November 20, 2012 by nurofiend

[lemoncake]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that maybe the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

no doubt you will point your fingers at Israel,because it ok to target and kill Israeli civilians, just not Gazan's, right?

[nurofiend]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that maybe the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

no doubt you will point your fingers at Israel,because it ok to target and kill Israeli civilians, just not Gazan's, right?

you have no doubt that i think it's ok to target and kill Israeli civilians, just not Gazan's?

just because i think your comment was pretty ridiculous...

[geriatrickid]

The world get angry.

Anonymous is not the world.

It is a collection of hackers that sometimes share a common view, but more often than not seek to impose their brand of vigilante justice with no concern for the legal rights of others or for the due process of those accused of crimes. . The reality is that it is the free "world" against Anonymous. Ask yourself why this group never takes on China, Russia, Iran or Syria. Instead it targets western commercial operations and western allied governments. Anonymous takes advantage of western freedoms and liberties to attack the very governments and people that make those freedoms and liberties possible. Considering the fact that Hamas has attempted to block internet access and regularly monitors private phone lines, Anonymous might wish to consider who the real enemy of freedom is.

[geriatrickid]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that may be the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

Ahh so you are of the alternative view that there are civilian casualties because Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. use civilian shileds? I do see your point. Perhaps if they didn't intentionally launch missiles from schools, residential buildings, hospitals etc, those locations would not suffer damage when the IDF sought to take out the launching sites and the munitions. I find it odd that these "fighters" always pick high population density sites such as apartment blocks to store their munitions.

Edited November 20, 2012 by geriatrickid

[nurofiend]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that may be the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

Ahh so you are of the alternative view that there are civilian casualties because Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. use civilian shileds? I do see your point. Perhaps if they didn't intentionally launch missiles from schools, residential buildings, hospitals etc, those locations would not suffer damage when the IDF sought to take out the launching sites and the munitions. I find it odd that these "fighters" always pick high population density sites such as apartment blocks to store their munitions.

my point?

i thought i was just making it clear that "the fewer death toll in Israel is "ONLY" due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens" is a riiiidiculous comment.

Ahhhhh, i get it now... you were trying to be clever.

very good.

[Gary A]

Exactly what military targets are the Palestinians trying to destroy? They shotgun rockets into Israel and have no idea where those rockets will land. They then turn around and criticize Israel for precision targeting of rocket launchers that are located in places the lunatics think will not be attacked because of women and children being there. That tactic should be quite obvious by now.

The Israelis made the mistake of allowing the lunatics to store these rockets in populated areas. At this point civilians are no doubt going to be killed. Are these civilians totally innocent? They obviously allow this kind of tactic so they are inviting air attacks.

[mania]

Perhaps if they didn't intentionally launch missiles from schools, residential buildings, hospitals etc, those locations would not suffer damage when the IDF sought to take out the launching sites and the munitions. I find it odd that these "fighters" always pick high population density sites such as apartment blocks to store their munitions.

You should find it odd, as it is propaganda to suggest something so silly.

Really try to imagine the reality of what your saying.

Yeah lets get these missiles into this residential building ASAP

umm commander sir they wont fit in the elevator.

Ok carry them up the stairs.

Ok we are on the 8th floor sir what next

Well open the window you fool so we can launch this rocket.

Umm sir dont we need a massive launch sled?

Jokes aside as really this whole mess is not funny

you can go google the specifics of these rockets & what it takes to launch.

There are even many videos of Hamas rocket launches.

Note the size of the sleds that launch them & how they rise out of the dirt of launch sites to

launch.

Any hand held or maneuverable into residential buildings weapons or munitions are not

what is being lobbed at Israel.

Edited November 20, 2012 by mania

[kblaze]

so what is the alternative? sit and wait to be wiped out? or perhaps give more privileges to those who openly state they want you dead.

proportional response? would that be rocket for a rocket?,aimed ONLY at civilians? would that be proportional and gain more support?

Palestinians are good at propaganda and pointing fingers, they start to fire rockets, blame Israel, they do not have enough money to support their corruption-blame Israel. Perhaps if less money was wasted on rockets, there would be more money for the people.

Hamas is good and firing rockets, why have they not bothered to build shelters for its citizens? Because civilian death toll benefits them.

Why do they store rockets in schools, and apartments?-because death toll benefits them,

Just now, out in the news, that building where family of 10 was killed, was actually also where 4 jihad commanders were hiding. 2 have been killed and this is confirmed by Palestinians(on Al jazeera now)

So if Gaza Government does not care about its own people, and does not protect them, why should Israel? and why should Israeli's suffer?

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

1) Both sides use propaganda (you could say every govt in the world does really)

2) No, Israel doesn't have to "sit back and do nothing", that is ridiculous.

3) Yes Hamas has done a poor job of governing and has done little to improve relations with Israel. However, your comment about Hamas building bomb shelters is laughable. Israel is using warplanes and tactical missile strikes that occur in seconds. Hamas has no way to know when and from where a strike is coming. Israel is able to use bomb shelters because the rockets are in the air for some time.

4) To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

The warning sirens and bomb shelters and the plans for escape that the Israeli govt has are great, no doubt, but the primary reason that 90% of the rockets don't cause damage or injury is because they are just shot randomly over the border and the bordering region is mostly farmland and their poor quality often results in them being "duds". The rockets are poor in quality and have a relatively small blast radius. The scary part for Israelis that there are new rockets that can travel 45 km. However Iron Dome, which they employ for "threat rockets", ones heading to a populated area, are 90% effective and thanks to the US' unending financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

Edited November 20, 2012 by kblaze

[geriatrickid]

I'll take the IDF explanation about the apartment building any day

And here are some clips courtesy of Hamas showing its launches from civilian areas.

[nurofiend]

To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

nding financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

yeah, that's pretty much it...plus the last time i checked there are no palestinian fighter jets flying over israel but i may be ill-informed myself... call me crazy but i have a feeling that might have some relevance to differences in death tolls too.

[nurofiend]

I'll take the IDF explanation about the apartment building any day

i get the strange feeling you'd take the IDF explanation about anything any day.