Gaza Crisis: Un's Ban Calls For Ceasefire After Israeli Airstrike Kills Civilians

[lemoncake]

so what is the alternative? sit and wait to be wiped out? or perhaps give more privileges to those who openly state they want you dead.

proportional response? would that be rocket for a rocket?,aimed ONLY at civilians? would that be proportional and gain more support?

Palestinians are good at propaganda and pointing fingers, they start to fire rockets, blame Israel, they do not have enough money to support their corruption-blame Israel. Perhaps if less money was wasted on rockets, there would be more money for the people.

Hamas is good and firing rockets, why have they not bothered to build shelters for its citizens? Because civilian death toll benefits them.

Why do they store rockets in schools, and apartments?-because death toll benefits them,

Just now, out in the news, that building where family of 10 was killed, was actually also where 4 jihad commanders were hiding. 2 have been killed and this is confirmed by Palestinians(on Al jazeera now)

So if Gaza Government does not care about its own people, and does not protect them, why should Israel? and why should Israeli's suffer?

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

1) Both sides use propaganda (you could say every govt in the world does really)

2) No, Israel doesn't have to "sit back and do nothing", that is ridiculous.

3) Yes Hamas has done a poor job of governing and has done little to improve relations with Israel. However, your comment about Hamas building bomb shelters is laughable. Israel is using warplanes and tactical missile strikes that occur in seconds. Hamas has no way to know when and from where a strike is coming. Israel is able to use bomb shelters because the rockets are in the air for some time.

4) To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

The warning sirens and bomb shelters and the plans for escape that the Israeli govt has are great, no doubt, but the primary reason that 90% of the rockets don't cause damage or injury is because they are just shot randomly over the border and the bordering region is mostly farmland and their poor quality often results in them being "duds". The rockets are poor in quality and have a relatively small blast radius. The scary part for Israelis that there are new rockets that can travel 45 km. However Iron Dome, which they employ for "threat rockets", ones heading to a populated area, are 90% effective and thanks to the US' unending financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

i see your logic, so because Hamas does not know when the strike is coming, they should not build bomb shelters? or is it not viable to fire rockets from the bomb shelters?

Now Israel built bomb shelters and installed sirens all over the country, because Hamas is gentleman enough to send 24 hour warning when and where they will fire the rockets?

Your logic is undieniable

[beechguy]

To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

nding financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

yeah, that's pretty much it...plus the last time i checked there are no palestinian fighter jets flying over israel but i may be ill-informed myself... call me crazy but i have a feeling that might have some relevance to differences in death tolls too.

I would think capable leadership would take those factors into consideration before launching attacks. The Palestinians asked(voted) for it, they're getting it. A 100+ dead versus 3 Israelis? Smart, really smart.

Edited November 20, 2012 by beechguy

[Morch]

Just now, out in the news, that building where family of 10 was killed, was actually also where 4 jihad commanders were hiding. 2 have been killed and this is confirmed by Palestinians(on Al jazeera now)

I believe that they were referring to the attack on the Shuruq Tower, where some foreign reporters (amongst them from Sky News) were injured.

[Fozfromoz]

I read up a bit on this organisation called Hamas. Ok its Wikipedia. They have it in their charter to kill Jews according to that article.

Quite a bit of other unsavoury activity, including storage and launch of weapons from Mosque's etc.

Poke the cobra and you are going to get bitten. They (Hamas) do and they do.

[nurofiend]

To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

nding financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

yeah, that's pretty much it...plus the last time i checked there are no palestinian fighter jets flying over israel but i may be ill-informed myself... call me crazy but i have a feeling that might have some relevance to differences in death tolls too.

Yeah Hamas is poor, they ONLY have enough money for the rockets, bombs and suicide bombers

Arafat, also loved his people and spent his life fighting only to die with a few BILLION DOLLARS in the bank, his personal accounts. Must be the money from the businesses he ran in occupied and oppressed lands

so because i see the blatant flaws in what you've said, it makes me in your eyes a hamas supporter and arafat idolizer...

if what you have just said is meant as some sort of way of proving palestine are not oppressed lands, sorry but it won't wash.

btw,

i'm neither religious (literally, not just non practicing), israeli, american, palestinian, iranian or anything whatsoever that could be seen as putting any slant on my views about this conflict.

[kblaze]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

[lemoncake]

To clarify what another poster may have meant when responding that your comment was "ill-informed"-- Israel has the money to buy sophisticated, powerful weapons = more Gazan casualties. Gaza's economy is crippled due to the land and sea blockade Israel has strapped the Strip with, thus very little in terms of revenue for the government (Hamas), thus they have shitty weapons (rockets and mortars)that are generally sourced from neighboring ME allies. The fact that you don't acknowledge this glaring fact is what makes your comment "ill-informed".

nding financial support ($205 million since 2010--and this only for Iron Dome development) are getting more effective and advanced.

yeah, that's pretty much it...plus the last time i checked there are no palestinian fighter jets flying over israel but i may be ill-informed myself... call me crazy but i have a feeling that might have some relevance to differences in death tolls too.

Yeah Hamas is poor, they ONLY have enough money for the rockets, bombs and suicide bombers

Arafat, also loved his people and spent his life fighting only to die with a few BILLION DOLLARS in the bank, his personal accounts. Must be the money from the businesses he ran in occupied and oppressed lands

so because i see the blatant flaws in what you've said, it makes me in your eyes a hamas supporter and arafat idolizer...

if what you have just said is meant as some sort of way of proving palestine are not oppressed lands, sorry but it won't wash.

btw,

i'm neither religious (literally, not just non practicing), israeli, american, palestinian, iranian or anything whatsoever that could be seen as putting any slant on my views about this conflict.

I only stated undeniable facts, what you believe or who you support is your business entirely.

I also stated only 2 facts, the oppressed lands and the rest of your post not only irrelevant but factually incorrect. Gaza is not occupied, it is blockaded for the simple reason-rockets and bombs.

[Morch]

The world get angry.

The existence of cyber-war in relation to the current conflict was addressed by Israel a few days ago. So far it doesn't seem to be having much success. Some of the targeted websites listed are of Israeli political powers generally identified with a more moderate approach (President Shimon Peres and the Kadima party), or aren't "major league" (Bank of Jerusalem).

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/2012111973111746137.html

[lemoncake]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

How can you be so illogical? Israeli's are by far in worse situation than the Palestinians, because Israel sends sms messages, leaflets and phone calls in Arabic advising of the strike location, Hamas does not.

Even when Palestinians know of the air strike, they have nowhere to hide,

Israeli fighter jets are not invisible and do not just appear out of nowhere, so Palestinians have as much notice as Israeli's, the only difference is Israel build and developed an infrastructure while Hamas needs the casualties for the publicity, because in reality they(Hamas) could not care less

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been deleted. Please be civil to one another. Personal arguments about what other posters believe or do not believe is not relevant to the thread.

[kblaze]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

How can you be so illogical? Israeli's are by far in worse situation than the Palestinians, because Israel sends sms messages, leaflets and phone calls in Arabic advising of the strike location, Hamas does not.

Even when Palestinians know of the air strike, they have nowhere to hide,

Israeli fighter jets are not invisible and do not just appear out of nowhere, so Palestinians have as much notice as Israeli's, the only difference is Israel build and developed an infrastructure while Hamas needs the casualties for the publicity, because in reality they(Hamas) could not care less

So no response abt bomb shelters? k.

They do not inform residents where a strike is. It would give their Hamas target the chance to flee. Frankly I'm shocked I have to explain that to you. The messages essentially say "stay away from Hamas, we are coming". I agree that it is better than nothing.

Yes the Gazans have nowhere to hide as the IAF air strikes use missles designed to penetrate buildings.

Your last comment made my jaw drop. Do you know how fighter jets work? If you see one, its already too late.

Finally, your comment that "Israel builds infrastructure, Hamas needs casualties", is just weird. Remember for every 5-10 civilian casualties, there is 1-2 Hamas militants. Why would they want casualties if they are losing top members of their organization? As much as Hamas tries to act tough, they don't want to be on the receiving end of a missle strike.

Yes Israel builds infrastructure; they are rich. Why? America...F*** Yeah!

Edited November 20, 2012 by kblaze

[Jingthing]

Israel's successful economy is many faceted. Agriculture, tourism, high tech, etc. Not sure how many people are aware of the massive success of their high tech sector, one of the major "Silicon Valleys" of the world.

[geriatrickid]

i get the strange feeling you'd take the IDF explanation about anything any day.

In this matter, I am believe the IDF position.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you. You know this alleged blockade of Gaza that is alleged to cause such suffering? How harsh can it be if there is a problem with obesity in Gaza and no evidence of starvation?

How strict can it be if Hamas has thousands upon thousands of missiles to fire at Israel? Oh wait, you are going to say, no, the Iranians and Syrians are not supplying the missiles that are brought in through Egypt. Ok. Then they were built in Gaza then right? How can that be when this Israeli blockade has stopped imports and manufacturing? It takes some sophisticated machinery and alot of power to roperate multiple factories that turn out the missiles. What is this struggle the Gazans are involved in against Israeli settlements? There are no settlements in Gaza and a large swath of Israeli land alonfg the border is barren because it is too dangerous to cultivate because of arab snipers.

[coma]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that may be the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

The comment shows a blatant lack of understanding of the situation.

[geriatrickid]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

How can you be so illogical? Israeli's are by far in worse situation than the Palestinians, because Israel sends sms messages, leaflets and phone calls in Arabic advising of the strike location, Hamas does not.

Even when Palestinians know of the air strike, they have nowhere to hide,

Israeli fighter jets are not invisible and do not just appear out of nowhere, so Palestinians have as much notice as Israeli's, the only difference is Israel build and developed an infrastructure while Hamas needs the casualties for the publicity, because in reality they(Hamas) could not care less

So no response abt bomb shelters? k.

They do not inform residents where a strike is. It would give their Hamas target the chance to flee. Frankly I'm shocked I have to explain that to you. The messages essentially say "stay away from Hamas, we are coming". I agree that it is better than nothing.

Yes the Gazans have nowhere to hide as the IAF air strikes use missles designed to penetrate buildings.

Your last comment made my jaw drop. Do you know how fighter jets work? If you see one, its already too late.

Finally, your comment that "Israel builds infrastructure, Hamas needs casualties", is just weird. Remember for every 5-10 civilian casualties, there is 1-2 Hamas militants. Why would they want casualties if they are losing top members of their organization? As much as Hamas tries to act tough, they don't want to be on the receiving end of a missle strike.

Yes Israel builds infrastructure; they are rich. Why? America...F*** Yeah!

Israelis are not rich. They are heavily taxed to support socialist style welfare programs. Israel derives important FX because of its high tech, agricultural and biotech sectors. It also benefits from tens of thousands of skilled Russian refugees. Those Russians brough a wealth of something money can't buy, intelligence. Iron dome, telecommunications, advanced meterological and atmospheric skills were all delivered by a grateful russian refugee class who came destitute. Yes, the USA gives money, but the USA generosity is also shown to the Arab region with generous aid for the PLA and Egypt. The EU has dumped hundreds of millions of euros into Gaza every year for what purpose? The Gazan residents still prefer going to Israeli hospitals over their state of the art hospitals built with EU money. What is up with the Gazan's desire to enter Israel? If they hate the place so much, why do they demand access to work there? There was a time when Gazans could enter, but then they decided they wanted to go kaboom, Have you noticed that ever since Israel took a tight stand on its borders that suicide bombings are a rare event now and that there are no successful terror attacks by armed gangs?

[geriatrickid]

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

i think that may be the most ill-informed comment i've heard in quite a while.

The comment shows a blatant lack of understanding of the situation.

On the contrary, it shows an acute awareness of the cultural divide between Gazan and Israeli culture. In Gaza martyrdom is a blessed event. In Israel, someone's death is considered a tragedy. Know what? I like the Israeli position alot better than I do of the Hamas march to martyrhood.

[coma]

i get the strange feeling you'd take the IDF explanation about anything any day.

In this matter, I am believe the IDF position.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you. You know this alleged blockade of Gaza that is alleged to cause such suffering? How harsh can it be if there is a problem with obesity in Gaza and no evidence of starvation?

How strict can it be if Hamas has thousands upon thousands of missiles to fire at Israel? Oh wait, you are going to say, no, the Iranians and Syrians are not supplying the missiles that are brought in through Egypt. Ok. Then they were built in Gaza then right? How can that be when this Israeli blockade has stopped imports and manufacturing? It takes some sophisticated machinery and alot of power to roperate multiple factories that turn out the missiles. What is this struggle the Gazans are involved in against Israeli settlements? There are no settlements in Gaza and a large swath of Israeli land alonfg the border is barren because it is too dangerous to cultivate because of arab snipers.

Are your comments for real ? Firstly you name it as an alledged blockade of Gaza. In a manner which suggests that you don't believe there is a blockade. Then you openly change your thinking and address it as a blockade when it suits your arguement. Good effort .

As for your comments on "problems with obesity in Gaza". Well .........

[kblaze]

i get the strange feeling you'd take the IDF explanation about anything any day.

In this matter, I am believe the IDF position.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you. You know this alleged blockade of Gaza that is alleged to cause such suffering? How harsh can it be if there is a problem with obesity in Gaza and no evidence of starvation?

How strict can it be if Hamas has thousands upon thousands of missiles to fire at Israel? Oh wait, you are going to say, no, the Iranians and Syrians are not supplying the missiles that are brought in through Egypt. Ok. Then they were built in Gaza then right? How can that be when this Israeli blockade has stopped imports and manufacturing? It takes some sophisticated machinery and alot of power to roperate multiple factories that turn out the missiles. What is this struggle the Gazans are involved in against Israeli settlements? There are no settlements in Gaza and a large swath of Israeli land alonfg the border is barren because it is too dangerous to cultivate because of arab snipers.

Your comments are off the topic of "air strikes", but lets dance.

So by using the term "alleged" you are contradicting Israel who affirms they have indeed blockaded Gaza.

And by using "alleged" referring to their suffering you are contradicting Human Rights groups who have attested to the problems the blockade causes on the Gazans. I don't want to discuss whether or not these groups can be trusted, I'm simply saying you are contradicting them. A blockade, by nature, impedes two things; Commerce and travel.

Yes, Gazans are not starving like people in Sudan. Yes, the settlement issue is more related to Palestinians in the West Bank.

Regarding, "it takes sophisticated machinery..to operate factories to make rockets." The simple answer is, no, it does not. The rockets are crude, cheap, and highly ineffective.

You should read this article;http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-11-16/israel-s-iron-dome-defense-system-battles-hamas-rockets

Edited November 20, 2012 by kblaze

[coma]

i get the strange feeling you'd take the IDF explanation about anything any day.

In this matter, I am believe the IDF position.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you. You know this alleged blockade of Gaza that is alleged to cause such suffering? How harsh can it be if there is a problem with obesity in Gaza and no evidence of starvation?

How strict can it be if Hamas has thousands upon thousands of missiles to fire at Israel? Oh wait, you are going to say, no, the Iranians and Syrians are not supplying the missiles that are brought in through Egypt. Ok. Then they were built in Gaza then right? How can that be when this Israeli blockade has stopped imports and manufacturing? It takes some sophisticated machinery and alot of power to roperate multiple factories that turn out the missiles. What is this struggle the Gazans are involved in against Israeli settlements? There are no settlements in Gaza and a large swath of Israeli land alonfg the border is barren because it is too dangerous to cultivate because of arab snipers.

Your comments are off the topic of "air strikes", but lets dance.

So by using the term "alleged" you are contradicting Israel who affirms they have indeed blockaded Gaza.

And by using "alleged" referring to their suffering you are contradicting Human Rights groups who have attested to the problems the blockade causes on the Gazans. I don't want to discuss whether or not these groups can be trusted, I'm simply saying you are contradicting them. A blockade, by nature, impedes two things; Commerce and travel.

Yes, Gazans are not starving like people in Sudan. Yes, the settlement issue is more related to Palestinians in the West Bank.

Regarding, "it takes sophisticated machinery..to operate factories to make rockets." The simple answer is, no, it does not. The rockets are crude, cheap, and highly ineffective.

You should read this article;http://www.businessw...s-hamas-rockets

One can see first hand much more effective and deadly rockets made by hand from bamboo and gunpowder, being fired every year at the Udon Thani rocket festival every year.

[chooka]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

This attack is like the israelis using machine guns and the palestinians using bows and arrows. Using a fighter jet against a guy with a sword is a bit of an overkill and a sign of cowardice I think. I once had sympathy for Israel and believed the propaganda they spun but now they have gone way to far, there is no justification for the level of force or the slaughter of children.

[coma]

Have a look at this for a blatant IDF propaganda vdo that has been doctored to make them look like white knights. Note that there is a cut in the vision 3/4 of the way through. Firstly an individual/s can clearly be seen firing rockets from a heavily wooded area. All the while the IDF chopper pilot is rumbling on about how the area is clear of civilians. The the cut in footage cuts back to an IDF missle attack on what is clearly a different site, in a somewhat open area with some low brush outside of a residence. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=612_1353364533

[uptheos]

Ok now for my view on this;

Israel has the right to defend themselves. Their problem is proportionality.

Proportionality? So what? If Hamas is on the losing end of proportionality, then they should be all for a peaceful solution. That's the way war works.

If you attack someone with nothing more than a club, are they obligated to not use the gun they keep for self defense but instead seek out a club of equal size and weight to yours? Of course not.

Hamas cannot win the war with weapons, so they try to win the war via public relations by launching rockets from civilian areas so that Israeli counter strikes kill women and children.

The below drawings are meant to be critical of Israel but I don't see it that way. It does however illustrate why Hamas needs to seek a peaceful solution.

Im saying it hurts Israel. War is terrible and you are entitled to a win at all costs mentality in war. But you have to accept what comes after the destruction. Namely, is your support base (USA) going to remain as faithful? Will the Palestinians' support base grow? Collateral isn't important in achieving your immediate goal in a battle. But it matters if you rely on the help of others.

so what is the alternative? sit and wait to be wiped out? or perhaps give more privileges to those who openly state they want you dead.

proportional response? would that be rocket for a rocket?,aimed ONLY at civilians? would that be proportional and gain more support?

Palestinians are good at propaganda and pointing fingers, they start to fire rockets, blame Israel, they do not have enough money to support their corruption-blame Israel. Perhaps if less money was wasted on rockets, there would be more money for the people.

Hamas is good and firing rockets, why have they not bothered to build shelters for its citizens? Because civilian death toll benefits them.

Why do they store rockets in schools, and apartments?-because death toll benefits them,

Just now, out in the news, that building where family of 10 was killed, was actually also where 4 jihad commanders were hiding. 2 have been killed and this is confirmed by Palestinians(on Al jazeera now)

So if Gaza Government does not care about its own people, and does not protect them, why should Israel? and why should Israeli's suffer?

The death toll on Palestinian side is a direct result of Hamas failure to protect its citizens, the fewer death toll in Israel is ONLY due to Israeli government pro active actions such as bomb shelters, warning sirens

Excellent points. Hamas will convince civilians (whether they want to or not), that having missile launchers or weapons based at their homes is demonstrating their love of allah. They are brainwashed (forced) to become martyrs and the dead children's body's that are held up is Hamas propoganda, who the parents think are now in heaven. In fact Hamas is killing civilians on both sides, because if they did not launch their missiles or stock their weapons with civilians, they know that Israel would take them out in a heartbeat. Forget all the psychology and stupid reasoning, the facts are that Israel has had enough of Hamas launching rockets indiscriminately and now that they have obtained long range rockets reaching Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, they have to be destroyed at all cost before Israel itself is wiped out. Personally I think Israel has been too soft on Hamas and Gaza, so it's about time to make it 'irrelevant'.

[mania]

Israel's successful economy is many faceted. Agriculture, tourism, high tech, etc. Not sure how many people are aware of the massive success of their high tech sector, one of the major "Silicon Valleys" of the world.

I do not know if I would term an economy massively successful

while they still need Billions per year from others in aid

Edited November 20, 2012 by mania

[Fozfromoz]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

This attack is like the israelis using machine guns and the palestinians using bows and arrows. Using a fighter jet against a guy with a sword is a bit of an overkill and a sign of cowardice I think. I once had sympathy for Israel and believed the propaganda they spun but now they have gone way to far, there is no justification for the level of force or the slaughter of children.

I guess if the bows and arrows stopped, then the jets would go away. Perhaps Israel does go over the top, but their adversary openly states that they want to kill Jews. All of this does not make HAMAS the good guys.

[mania]

I guess if the bows and arrows stopped, then the jets would go away. Perhaps Israel does go over the top, but their adversary openly states that they want to kill Jews. All of this does not make HAMAS the good guys.

I have watched this situation for years.

Don't have a stake in it. Can't say I have Arab or Israeli friends even.

But just by watching & reading & listening many times I wonder about

the often touted " They said this" "They do not want to allow others to exist"

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yet watching for years the actual actions not the words of both it is hard not to "see"

One need only look at the maps & how they have changed amazingly since 1946

Even to look at them since the UN Partition Plan of 1947

one would be hard pressed to worry about words when confronted with reality of what IS

happening there.

[koheesti]

3) Yes Hamas has done a poor job of governing and has done little to improve relations with Israel. However, your comment about Hamas building bomb shelters is laughable. Israel is using warplanes and tactical missile strikes that occur in seconds. Hamas has no way to know when and from where a strike is coming. Israel is able to use bomb shelters because the rockets are in the air for some time.

Hamas has done a horrible job of governing. How many years ago did Israel pull completely out of Gaza? 6? 7? Given a golden opportunity to build a functioning society what did they do from almost day one? Attack Israel. The people who cry about the blockade should ask themselves where Hamas gets all those rockets they shoot at Israel? Are they really surprised that Israel put up a blockade? As for Hamas not knowing when the attacks against them will come, I think you have it backwards. They know full well when they will be attacked...soon after they launch rockets into Israel.

[Jingthing]

It's worth asking WHY Hamas increased firing the rockets recently basically forcing a reaction from Israel (any country would react)?

Could it be IRAN?

Israeli President Shimon Peres said Monday that Iran, with flows of money and weapons, was putting “tremendous pressure” on longtime ally Hamas to maintain its belligerent stance. Throughout the conflict, the Israeli military has accused Hamas of turning Gaza into a “front-line base for Iran.”

...

“There is a confrontation between the Iranians, who want to continue Hamas’s belligerence, and many of the Arab countries that want to put an end to it,” Peres said Monday, according to a statement issued by the Israeli president’s office. He met earlier in the day with Tony Blair, a former British prime minister and current U.N. peace envoy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/death-toll-rises-as-israeli-military-assaults-gaza-strip/2012/11/19/b395f85c-3250-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html Edited November 20, 2012 by Jingthing

[Morch]

3) Yes Hamas has done a poor job of governing and has done little to improve relations with Israel. However, your comment about Hamas building bomb shelters is laughable. Israel is using warplanes and tactical missile strikes that occur in seconds. Hamas has no way to know when and from where a strike is coming. Israel is able to use bomb shelters because the rockets are in the air for some time.

The effective warning time for most areas under rocket attack in southern Israel is 15-30 seconds. 60-90 seconds in the case of farther areas (like Tel Aviv). Better than non at all, of course, but not as if you can grab a coffee on the way. Another issue which seem to come up again and again on the Israeli media is lack of public shelters and/or the readiness of existing ones. Once more, on this regard, the situation on the Israeli side is better than in Gaza, but apparently not as good as one may imagine.

[uptheos]

Actually Israel's iron shield defence missiles have taken out almost 90% of incoming rockets.

[Morch]

Lemoncake; How can you not understand me?

I'm being as logical as possible; Bomb shelters are effective when you have time to get to them. Gazans don't have the time because of the weaponry used against them. Israelis do (of course not always) because of the weaponry used against them.

You seem to think that Hamas sat around a table and made a decision;

"Well fellow terrorists, we have 1000 dollars, enough for either a bomb shelter or 10 rockets. What shall we do? *Chorus of "Rockets!" rings out*"

This attack is like the israelis using machine guns and the palestinians using bows and arrows. Using a fighter jet against a guy with a sword is a bit of an overkill and a sign of cowardice I think. I once had sympathy for Israel and believed the propaganda they spun but now they have gone way to far, there is no justification for the level of force or the slaughter of children.

War is rarely about fair play, this isn't sport.

Bringing cowardice into it, how would you define the mass shooting of rockets at civilian areas by the Hamas?