35-Year-Old British Tourist Kills Self At Koh Samui Shooting Range

[Swiss1960]

Why did the victim not amount to much and why don't westerners amount to much in Thailand? I am at a critical point in deciding whether to come or go (to Thailand) and need answers to this.

Thai people have a different valuation of life in general, as in their Buddhist believe, they will get reborn any way after they die. And Thai people value Westerns less in their country as Westerns value Asians / Africans less in their home countries...

You will be coming to a very different culture and you need to be aware of that. You will be a foreigner in Thailand for all your life, no matter how long you stay in Thailand, no matter having a Thai family or some day a Thai passport.

You need to be aware of those difficulties and many more of the pitfalls like yes, there are Thai women who will be interested in your money and yes, Thai laws are not in favour of foreigners with regards to property and yes, there is a latent corruption and bribery going on and targeting foreigners.

BUT: Most of all, you need to have your own PLAN for retiring / working in Thailand and that plan should take into considerations that things can go wrong and that you will have to build your OWN safety net, as the Thai society does not provide it for you and you must be aware that living on the beach and have nothing to do is not for everybody and thus, you need to have some idea of how to keep yourself busy and mentally healthy and yes, you need to have some contingency planning for health issues, relationship failures etc etc.

If you write that you are at a “critical point” in your decision, I would suggest to wait with your move until you are in a situation which is not critical but safe to make the decision... and don’t burn your bridges to back home, you never know when you need to return.

That is my general view, others might disagree with me.

[SteeleJoe]

two words EGO.... COMPASSION... display one and try to ignore , remove or hide the other , your choice.... but dont start a pissing contest over the sad demise of a brothers death ..... please

Presumably that is at least partly directed at me. I admire the sentiment and your desire to express it, and can't disagree with it

However, I don't see it as a pissing contest and in fact the discussion is not about this person and his (presumed) tragedy. It began with someone (not me) making a general statement about suicide and everything following that remains that -- a general discussion of suicide and some of the reasons why it may happen.

[Ulysses G.]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option?

I would guess that the problem is often no more money and no wish to return home.

[blackthorn2005]

At last, something thinking outside the suicide 'box'.

[sunshine51]

May he rest in peace

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Thaivisa Connect App

Same thought as me...

[ableguy]

I'm going to go for women, money problems or both as a motive. R.I.P anyhow.

More Crystal Balls

Yeah every tragedy.

[sbk]

A man is dead, his family could be reading this. Try to put yourself in their place and how they must feel and THINK before posting, cheers.

[wooly]

Here we go again! Isn't it sad enough that the guy died by his own hand - for whatever reasons. I am

starting to feel that it should be a condition of being part of Thai Visa that speculation, based on no hard facts other than how the person died, should be banned.

[KuhnPaen]

This happens all the time in the US. So much so, that the media stopped reporting them. Otherwise, people may come to view shooting ranges as "suicide booths."

When it happens at a shooting range in LA, the range will call up a crime scene cleaning service and simply say "we have another one."

Now there is a law that nobody can rent a gun by themselves. The gun store owner is also supposed to look for signs of depression (don't know how they would be qualified for that, but ok). In Thailand, they have an instructor accompany you to the range. Each time when this happens, the person fires off some rounds, and then waits for the instructor to turn his back. Since I joined Thai Visa, I think this is the 3rd such incident in a shooting range. Anyone have a practical solution?

"When a man deems his life worthless, he either commits suicide or travels."--Edward Dahlberg

Some do both.

[hellodolly]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option? I would guess there is a woman at the core of this.

Yes very sad indeed, RIP

Its my own previous experience that Thailand can provide tremendous highs but at the same time extreme depressions and it takes considerable time to adjust to the cultural divide and balance the two emotional states. Its not always apparent to an individual just how quickly this country can affect your state of mind and in particular where communication of personal feelings can be difficult because of language barriers.

I like your statement but I would say the cultural divide is more of a discovery of how you are less than a second class citizen here once you have been here a while. In the beginning, Thailand is a bit euphoric and after reality sets in it can be depressing at times.

I agree with you.

At first for many it can be euphoric.

Then if one decides to call it home the reality sets in. They have chosen to live in a country forign to them and the novelty is gone. They realize that for what eveer reasons they have come here life still goes on, They need to eat and have shelter. They might find it hard to find some one to share things with because of the language difference. Perhaps the difference in the different cultural events seem childish to them.

Perhaps they have planned it and want to give them selves a last hurrah.

What ever the reason may be I was told That

Suicide was the ultimate ego trip.

I feel there is a lot of merit in that statement.

[BigC]

Here we go again! Isn't it sad enough that the guy died by his own hand - for whatever reasons. I am

starting to feel that it should be a condition of being part of Thai Visa that speculation, based on no hard facts other than how the person died, should be banned.

Only facts I know of are that he killed himself which is suicide unless the news in wrong

As for reasons why he done it

It is only human nature to speculate but for real unless anyone knew him or is a relative then anything is possible so any reason given buy any one that has no relation to the man is just guessing and assumptions

Sad for his friends and family but he took his own life so for that only his family and friends deserve sympathy

Sorry but suicide is selfish and everyone knows that if they kill themselves then most people know before they commit the act that they should not deserve sympathy unless in deep physical pain or very bad living conditions

As for the shooting range that was also a selfish way to kill then self I. Done one else's business

If someone walked into my Busines and used one of my tools to kill themselves then I would be well pissed off

I am sorry but rules or no rule the facts are that deciding to use someone's Busines to kill your self is wrong and gets no sympathy from me only the business and the poor people that r related to him

[crazydrummerpauly]

Permanent solution to a temporary problem...

RIP

Life being the temporary problem ? But only for non-Budhists. No reason at all to deduce any kind of 'temporary problem'- many problems in life are incurable and weigh people down to the weary end.

[crazydrummerpauly]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option? I would guess there is a woman at the core of this.

Yes very sad indeed, RIP

Its my own previous experience that Thailand can provide tremendous highs but at the same time extreme depressions and it takes considerable time to adjust to the cultural divide and balance the two emotional states. Its not always apparent to an individual just how quickly this country can affect your state of mind and in particular where communication of personal feelings can be difficult because of language barriers.

Highs to lows and if you're lucky, back up again - yep. But two points : First, i'd speculate that a high proportion of the people who come to Thailand are ALREADY depressed and in some cases have been for years. Second, trying to explain deep emotions just is challenging, even in a shared language and culture - so the point about it being difficult in Thailand between culturally different people ('language barriers') should be that it is even MORE difficult than back home with a fellow member of that culture.

Edited December 4, 2012 by crazydrummerpauly

[Amaximus]

would have thought he would have left a suicide note somewhere if he planned to do this or maybe a moment of madness implusive dicession who knows.

would have to check his phone i suppose to see if he had any bad news or problems

The clear majority of suicides do NOT leave notes. Studies have shown (and logic would indicate) that there are many reasons why someone would not leave a note and by no means is it always the due to the act being an impulsive one.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

As an ex police officer,I can tell you about 90% of suicides DO leave notes,where do you get your facts,another expert!

It is estimated that 25–30% of suicides are accompanied by a note. According to Gelder, Mayou and Geddes (2005) one in six leave a suicide note. The content can be a plea for absolution or blaming family and friends for life's failings. - "AIM Report: Critiquing Berman's Report on Foster". Accuracy in Media. 2001-06-01.

[kimamey]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option? I would guess there is a woman at the core of this.

It amazes me how so many people make assumptions based on so little. And how many don't understand the concepts of causality and correlation (ie because people commit suicide in Thailand it doesn't mean they commit suicide because of Thailand or wouldn't have done so in another place.)

Having said that, this place does get to people and I can see why. It doesn't surprise me a bit that some of them are to weak to survive it (not sure it's "so many").

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Why do you say 'weak' ?

I noticed that as well but I don't think it was meant in the derogatory way that I first assumed.

I don't know the background to this but it may be that there were problems before he came to Thailand. I don't even know how long he'd been here or if he had friends and family. If he was alone here or maybe with a Thai woman he may have felt isolated compared to how he would be back in the UK.

R.I.P. anyway

[paymaster]

Can anybody tell me why there's so many death involving outsiders in Thailand? Why...?

Strangely, most Thais die here too.

[smotherb]

would have thought he would have left a suicide note somewhere if he planned to do this or maybe a moment of madness implusive dicession who knows.

would have to check his phone i suppose to see if he had any bad news or problems

The clear majority of suicides do NOT leave notes. Studies have shown (and logic would indicate) that there are many reasons why someone would not leave a note and by no means is it always the due to the act being an impulsive one.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

As an ex police officer,I can tell you about 90% of suicides DO leave notes,where do you get your facts,another expert!

Where do I get my facts? From research -- though I haven't claimed to be the expert that you apparently see yourself as.

In 2005, Gelder, Mayou, and Geddes concluded it was about 1 in 6 that left a note. Another researcher (Dr. Leenaars - who is internationally renowned for his work in suicide prevention and his study of suicide) estimates it ranges from 12 - 37% of suicides that leave a note. Dr. Howard Rosenthal says it's between 15 - 25%. Other research indicates it's 25 - 33%.

I've never seen anything anywhere near 90% -- and it defies logic -- but if you can show me some evidence of my error, I'd be pleased to know of it.

Well, someone who actually researches somewhere other than wikipedia, congratulations. From the other "expert's" perspective; perhaps it just makes tidier police work to simply provide a suicide note, case closed.

[SteeleJoe]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option? I would guess there is a woman at the core of this.

It amazes me how so many people make assumptions based on so little. And how many don't understand the concepts of causality and correlation (ie because people commit suicide in Thailand it doesn't mean they commit suicide because of Thailand or wouldn't have done so in another place.)

Having said that, this place does get to people and I can see why. It doesn't surprise me a bit that some of them are to weak to survive it (not sure it's "so many").

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Why do you say 'weak' ?

I noticed that as well but I don't think it was meant in the derogatory way that I first assumed.

I don't know the background to this but it may be that there were problems before he came to Thailand. I don't even know how long he'd been here or if he had friends and family. If he was alone here or maybe with a Thai woman he may have felt isolated compared to how he would be back in the UK.

R.I.P. anyway

No. it wasn't meant a derogatory. First of all let's look at context:

A post from someone else said, "It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option?"

The post bothered me because of the presumption that the poor guy i the OP and others take this drastic measure because of something that happened here rather than serious and already extant issues (mental health, debilitating or terminal illness, massive debt, who knows?) So I mentioned that such assumptions were unjustified.

However, I do believe that there can be for many people a harsh reality in Thailand that some people are unable to withstand once confronted with it. The vast majority may get hurt by it, maybe even permanently changed by it, but carry on with their lives. A few perhaps do not or feel they can not. They lack that capacity to summon up whatever it takes to carry on through a very dark time to get to the other side. At that one point in their life, they lack sufficient strength.

All of that was in reference to someone whose decision was due to something that has happened to them here. It was excluding people who have chosen death because of mental illness, clinical depression due to chemical imbalances, or some other situation where many would agree or understand with their choice.

And I'd also like to point out one more time: everyone is weak at times. Sometimes people lash out at someone else in a moment of weakness, sometimes people break down, and sometimes people break down and lash out at themselves. Humans are capable of unfathomable strength and courage. But even then strongest and most courageous is still human and is sometimes vulnerable and not as strong as they want to be or need to be. They have a moment of weakness. It's not an ugly thing or an evil thing. It's being human.

For those who love a person who commits suicide, it's often a waking nightmare (I speak with some authority on this) and they have my deepest sympathies. For the person who ha done away with themselves -- my personal belief is that they are no longer suffering or in need of sympathy.

[SteeleJoe]

Maybe I should have waited and thought the above through more carefully rather than do it as soon as I woke up -- but while wholeheartedly standby what I've said, I'm bothered by the idea of people interpreting it as being maliciously insulting. (I have some harsh words about some people who make that choice but I deliberately left that out.) So, as I often do, I banged it out as it came to me. I reserve the right as always to apologize and rephrase if I've said something I shouldn't have.

[Dukeleto]

It amazes me how this place gets to so many people. Is this place such a dead end that these people think they have no other option? I would guess there is a woman at the core of this.

Yes very sad indeed, RIP

Its my own previous experience that Thailand can provide tremendous highs but at the same time extreme depressions and it takes considerable time to adjust to the cultural divide and balance the two emotional states. Its not always apparent to an individual just how quickly this country can affect your state of mind and in particular where communication of personal feelings can be difficult because of language barriers.

I like your statement but I would say the cultural divide is more of a discovery of how you are less than a second class citizen here once you have been here a while. In the beginning, Thailand is a bit euphoric and after reality sets in it can be depressing at times.

Smack on brother

[hellodolly]

would have thought he would have left a suicide note somewhere if he planned to do this or maybe a moment of madness implusive dicession who knows.

would have to check his phone i suppose to see if he had any bad news or problems

The clear majority of suicides do NOT leave notes. Studies have shown (and logic would indicate) that there are many reasons why someone would not leave a note and by no means is it always the due to the act being an impulsive one.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

As an ex police officer,I can tell you about 90% of suicides DO leave notes,where do you get your facts,another expert!

It is estimated that 25–30% of suicides are accompanied by a note. According to Gelder, Mayou and Geddes (2005) one in six leave a suicide note. The content can be a plea for absolution or blaming family and friends for life's failings. - "AIM Report: Critiquing Berman's Report on Foster". Accuracy in Media. 2001-06-01.

I have a hard time with reports that say 25% to 30%, Then go on to say one 1 in 6 that is more like 17%. What else is incorrect the study is useless.

[SteeleJoe]

I have a hard time with reports that say 25% to 30%, Then go on to say one 1 in 6 that is more like 17%. What else is incorrect the study is useless.

You need to read more carefully, perhaps. "A report" didn't state all those things. They were different reports. "The study"? It was numerous studies.

The point and utility of posting them was that of all the research I know of by experts who study thousands of cases, what's shown is that it is a minority of people who leave notes -- as was my contention -- and none gets anywhere near showing it as 90%.

EDIT:

IT seems it's ME who needs to read more carefully. I thought you were responding to my post but it seems you were speaking of the C&P someone posted (which lacks the context you'd need to realize that they are not talking about one study or one report).

Sorry.

EDIT 2:

90% defies credulity even without the research. My grandfather ad 2 uncles were cops. I was told one of the saddest things about suicide calls was how often the person seemingly left no one behind. 90% of the people who kill themselves have someone to whom to write to about their feelings and thoughts? I doubt it. I dare say that many of them would have chosen differently if they had.

Edited December 5, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[Shasta55]

I have rarely felt like a second class citizen in Thailand. At least with regard to the majority of Thais I've met. Admittedly I only spend about a month per year there - for about the past 35 years.

Nut planning much more in few years. Hopefully having sufficient means and an easy option of returning home will cure any downside.

[nakhonandy]

Sadly this sort of thing happens quite often, very sad for his family and friends.

Not sure why some assume Thailand is the cause.

People who come to Thailand unprepared often have a problem.

If you just accept Thailand as it is and adapt to their way of life instead of trying to live as in Europe etc it is a wonderful place.

I have been coming here for 30+ years and lived here for 2, no regrets, exactly the opposite.

Don't blame Thailand for this sad event without any facts.

Just feel sorry for his loved ones. RIP

[cpofc]

Why did the victim not amount to much and why don't westerners amount to much in Thailand? I am at a critical point in deciding whether to come or go (to Thailand) and need answers to this.

I would not normally have bothered to contribute a post to an all too common thread like this, but your post seems to be both genuine and poignant.

I'll leave the speculation on this man's tragic suicide to others.

It is extremely difficult to know where to begin. I won't bore you and everyone else with my life story and history, but I do feel that I am adequately qualified, albeit if only from experience and not academic qualifications, to have an opinion on your question.

'Westerners don't amount to much' A bit harsh, but in alot of cases, close to the bone. The underlying problem? Racism, parochialism, nationalism. An attitude which has increased exponentially in the 40+ years I have been frequenting and living here.

Could you imagine living in England, Australia or the USA and being illiterate. What a bloody unthinkable nightmare! (I am a white 5th generation Australian BTW) Lacking understanding of the local language, culture, customs, history and traditions. Which is what the majority of westerners are faced with in the LOS. Or. Being black? or Asian. White folks, historically, are not exactly used to being on the receiving end of racism, since the West has ruled the world for centuries.. Racism doesn't have to be a nasty experience all the time either, nor is it a one sided phenomenon of the human species. 'Racism' can still exist even in a convivial, good natured environment. As it often does in Thailand. it is not a good place to be should you be in anyway paranoid. Taking yourself too seriously and lacking the ability to laugh at yourself is also not a good idea.

I spent over 20 years in Oz married to a Thai. I experienced her experience, daily. Extreme right wing white supremists are easily dealt with and dismissed with contempt. The more subtle, two-faced forms of racism is what really gets to people. And it can get to us as suredly as it can to someone who is both black and illiterate in an educated all white community. I can say in all honesty that my wife and her daughter, who came with us at the age of 10, never fully integrated into Australia society. Like the majority of farangs here, they too kept to their own Thai ex pat communities and had few Australian friends. But 27 years later, they both choose to stay in Oz, whilst I baled out, permanently, to the LOS. In Australia we have laws against racial vilification and discrimination. In Thailand they have laws for it. it is not easy to cope with at times and one must develope the right kind of mindset to deal with it. Everyday can be a challenge. It can get you down. It can be rather detrimental to your well-being if you are predisposed to depression and paranoia. Depression and suicide rates for Australian males are soaring as it is. Without coming here. Travel around Australia and you will see no end of racist bumper stickers and T shirts - all under the guise of patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel), at least Thai taxis have 'I love Farang' stickers on them!

Moving outside of your station and place in life, and your comfort zone is not an easy thing to do. It is not something one should do on a whim, nor take lightly. You should be comfortable and happy in keeping your own company. You should have hobbies and interests to keep yourself acvtive and busy. This does not include propping up Ex Pat Bars all day discussing Thai women and politics. There is a big difference between being a tourist and being a permanent resident! A huge difference. You should learn to understand that difference. It also helps if you were successful in your own life and career in your own country before you come here. Arriving here already as a 'loser' in your personal life and career is a recipe for disaster. Whilst it is great for ones self esteem and ego, intially, as there is nothing like sitting in a bar with a veritable smorgasboard of attractive, hard bodied young girls being told how handsome, strong and intelligent you are. But stay here long enough and one day reality will set in. Another fallacy. Thais don't necessarily make better wives than western women either!!!! Another big mistake is to put yourself above them and to believe that you are better and smarter than 'them'. Because you are not and they will set about to prove it to you, eventually, one way or the other.

Briefly - On the subject of Marriage, relationships and SEX. if that's why you are coming here then all I can say is, good luck! Take a ticket in the Thai lottery whilst you are at it. The odds of being a 'winner' are perhaps about the same!

Check out Jane Elliott's Brown Eye-Blue Eye Experiment.

I live, one out, single, retired, in an all Thai environment - have done for many years now. I decided that I would not do what my wife and daughter did in Australia. That I would assimilate and integrate into the Thai community as much as possible. And I don't mean by buying them either. I don't have enough money to do that anyway. I set about making sure that my only Thai friends would not just be girls who worked in bars and their pimps, But then, always remember, that even if I did want to, I can never be Thai and I am always going to be the odd man out and different to those I live amongst.

It is all about respect. How would a foreigner living in my country, earn my respect? Well? Apply that logic to your own self. Respect is a two way thing, it is not automatic, it must be given in order to be received. Respect is what you should strive for. Some Thais may not like you, for what you are, but they can still respect you for who you are, and that is the crux of the matter from a personal level.

Viva le difference.

I shall now await the usual, expected, sarcasm and vitriol.

[SteeleJoe]

Why did the victim not amount to much and why don't westerners amount to much in Thailand? I am at a critical point in deciding whether to come or go (to Thailand) and need answers to this.

I would not normally have bothered to contribute a post to an all too common thread like this, but your post seems to be both genuine and poignant.

I'll leave the speculation on this man's tragic suicide to others.

It is extremely difficult to know where to begin. I won't bore you and everyone else with my life story and history, but I do feel that I am adequately qualified, albeit if only from experience and not academic qualifications, to have an opinion on your question.

'Westerners don't amount to much' A bit harsh, but in alot of cases, close to the bone. The underlying problem? Racism, parochialism, nationalism. An attitude which has increased exponentially in the 40+ years I have been frequenting and living here.

Could you imagine living in England, Australia or the USA and being illiterate. What a bloody unthinkable nightmare! (I am a white 5th generation Australian BTW) Lacking understanding of the local language, culture, customs, history and traditions. Which is what the majority of westerners are faced with in the LOS. Or. Being black? or Asian. White folks, historically, are not exactly used to being on the receiving end of racism, since the West has ruled the world for centuries.. Racism doesn't have to be a nasty experience all the time either, nor is it a one sided phenomenon of the human species. 'Racism' can still exist even in a convivial, good natured environment. As it often does in Thailand. it is not a good place to be should you be in anyway paranoid. Taking yourself too seriously and lacking the ability to laugh at yourself is also not a good idea.

I spent over 20 years in Oz married to a Thai. I experienced her experience, daily. Extreme right wing white supremists are easily dealt with and dismissed with contempt. The more subtle, two-faced forms of racism is what really gets to people. And it can get to us as suredly as it can to someone who is both black and illiterate in an educated all white community. I can say in all honesty that my wife and her daughter, who came with us at the age of 10, never fully integrated into Australia society. Like the majority of farangs here, they too kept to their own Thai ex pat communities and had few Australian friends. But 27 years later, they both choose to stay in Oz, whilst I baled out, permanently, to the LOS. In Australia we have laws against racial vilification and discrimination. In Thailand they have laws for it. it is not easy to cope with at times and one must develope the right kind of mindset to deal with it. Everyday can be a challenge. It can get you down. It can be rather detrimental to your well-being if you are predisposed to depression and paranoia. Depression and suicide rates for Australian males are soaring as it is. Without coming here. Travel around Australia and you will see no end of racist bumper stickers and T shirts - all under the guise of patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel), at least Thai taxis have 'I love Farang' stickers on them!

Moving outside of your station and place in life, and your comfort zone is not an easy thing to do. It is not something one should do on a whim, nor take lightly. You should be comfortable and happy in keeping your own company. You should have hobbies and interests to keep yourself acvtive and busy. This does not include propping up Ex Pat Bars all day discussing Thai women and politics. There is a big difference between being a tourist and being a permanent resident! A huge difference. You should learn to understand that difference. It also helps if you were successful in your own life and career in your own country before you come here. Arriving here already as a 'loser' in your personal life and career is a recipe for disaster. Whilst it is great for ones self esteem and ego, intially, as there is nothing like sitting in a bar with a veritable smorgasboard of attractive, hard bodied young girls being told how handsome, strong and intelligent you are. But stay here long enough and one day reality will set in. Another fallacy. Thais don't necessarily make better wives than western women either!!!! Another big mistake is to put yourself above them and to believe that you are better and smarter than 'them'. Because you are not and they will set about to prove it to you, eventually, one way or the other.

Briefly - On the subject of Marriage, relationships and SEX. if that's why you are coming here then all I can say is, good luck! Take a ticket in the Thai lottery whilst you are at it. The odds of being a 'winner' are perhaps about the same!

Check out Jane Elliott's Brown Eye-Blue Eye Experiment.

I live, one out, single, retired, in an all Thai environment - have done for many years now. I decided that I would not do what my wife and daughter did in Australia. That I would assimilate and integrate into the Thai community as much as possible. And I don't mean by buying them either. I don't have enough money to do that anyway. I set about making sure that my only Thai friends would not just be girls who worked in bars and their pimps, But then, always remember, that even if I did want to, I can never be Thai and I am always going to be the odd man out and different to those I live amongst.

It is all about respect. How would a foreigner living in my country, earn my respect? Well? Apply that logic to your own self. Respect is a two way thing, it is not automatic, it must be given in order to be received. Respect is what you should strive for. Some Thais may not like you, for what you are, but they can still respect you for who you are, and that is the crux of the matter from a personal level.

Viva le difference.

I shall now await the usual, expected, sarcasm and vitriol.

Hands down one of the best posts I've ever read on any forum relating to Thailand in the 10 years off and on I've been looking at them and better than a great many comments I've heard spoken over my 3 decades here. (I'm someone who thinks he has a fair bit of knowledge and has spent a lot of time studying and thinking bout these things -- so when it comes to this stuff, I don't praise so easily). I can't say I completely agree with every single bit but I can't fault any of it either.

KUDOS.

[nakhonandy]

Why did the victim not amount to much and why don't westerners amount to much in Thailand? I am at a critical point in deciding whether to come or go (to Thailand) and need answers to this.

I would not normally have bothered to contribute a post to an all too common thread like this, but your post seems to be both genuine and poignant.

I'll leave the speculation on this man's tragic suicide to others.

It is extremely difficult to know where to begin. I won't bore you and everyone else with my life story and history, but I do feel that I am adequately qualified, albeit if only from experience and not academic qualifications, to have an opinion on your question.

'Westerners don't amount to much' A bit harsh, but in alot of cases, close to the bone. The underlying problem? Racism, parochialism, nationalism. An attitude which has increased exponentially in the 40+ years I have been frequenting and living here.

Could you imagine living in England, Australia or the USA and being illiterate. What a bloody unthinkable nightmare! (I am a white 5th generation Australian BTW) Lacking understanding of the local language, culture, customs, history and traditions. Which is what the majority of westerners are faced with in the LOS. Or. Being black? or Asian. White folks, historically, are not exactly used to being on the receiving end of racism, since the West has ruled the world for centuries.. Racism doesn't have to be a nasty experience all the time either, nor is it a one sided phenomenon of the human species. 'Racism' can still exist even in a convivial, good natured environment. As it often does in Thailand. it is not a good place to be should you be in anyway paranoid. Taking yourself too seriously and lacking the ability to laugh at yourself is also not a good idea.

I spent over 20 years in Oz married to a Thai. I experienced her experience, daily. Extreme right wing white supremists are easily dealt with and dismissed with contempt. The more subtle, two-faced forms of racism is what really gets to people. And it can get to us as suredly as it can to someone who is both black and illiterate in an educated all white community. I can say in all honesty that my wife and her daughter, who came with us at the age of 10, never fully integrated into Australia society. Like the majority of farangs here, they too kept to their own Thai ex pat communities and had few Australian friends. But 27 years later, they both choose to stay in Oz, whilst I baled out, permanently, to the LOS. In Australia we have laws against racial vilification and discrimination. In Thailand they have laws for it. it is not easy to cope with at times and one must develope the right kind of mindset to deal with it. Everyday can be a challenge. It can get you down. It can be rather detrimental to your well-being if you are predisposed to depression and paranoia. Depression and suicide rates for Australian males are soaring as it is. Without coming here. Travel around Australia and you will see no end of racist bumper stickers and T shirts - all under the guise of patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel), at least Thai taxis have 'I love Farang' stickers on them!

Moving outside of your station and place in life, and your comfort zone is not an easy thing to do. It is not something one should do on a whim, nor take lightly. You should be comfortable and happy in keeping your own company. You should have hobbies and interests to keep yourself acvtive and busy. This does not include propping up Ex Pat Bars all day discussing Thai women and politics. There is a big difference between being a tourist and being a permanent resident! A huge difference. You should learn to understand that difference. It also helps if you were successful in your own life and career in your own country before you come here. Arriving here already as a 'loser' in your personal life and career is a recipe for disaster. Whilst it is great for ones self esteem and ego, intially, as there is nothing like sitting in a bar with a veritable smorgasboard of attractive, hard bodied young girls being told how handsome, strong and intelligent you are. But stay here long enough and one day reality will set in. Another fallacy. Thais don't necessarily make better wives than western women either!!!! Another big mistake is to put yourself above them and to believe that you are better and smarter than 'them'. Because you are not and they will set about to prove it to you, eventually, one way or the other.

Briefly - On the subject of Marriage, relationships and SEX. if that's why you are coming here then all I can say is, good luck! Take a ticket in the Thai lottery whilst you are at it. The odds of being a 'winner' are perhaps about the same!

Check out Jane Elliott's Brown Eye-Blue Eye Experiment.

I live, one out, single, retired, in an all Thai environment - have done for many years now. I decided that I would not do what my wife and daughter did in Australia. That I would assimilate and integrate into the Thai community as much as possible. And I don't mean by buying them either. I don't have enough money to do that anyway. I set about making sure that my only Thai friends would not just be girls who worked in bars and their pimps, But then, always remember, that even if I did want to, I can never be Thai and I am always going to be the odd man out and different to those I live amongst.

It is all about respect. How would a foreigner living in my country, earn my respect? Well? Apply that logic to your own self. Respect is a two way thing, it is not automatic, it must be given in order to be received. Respect is what you should strive for. Some Thais may not like you, for what you are, but they can still respect you for who you are, and that is the crux of the matter from a personal level.

Viva le difference.

I shall now await the usual, expected, sarcasm and vitriol.

Hands down one of the best posts I've ever read on any forum relating to Thailand in the 10 years off and on I've been looking at them and better than a great many comments I've heard spoken over my 3 decades here. (I'm someone who thinks he has a fair bit of knowledge and has spent a lot of time studying and thinking bout these things -- so when it comes to this stuff, I don't praise so easily). I can't say I completely agree with every single bit but I can't fault any of it either.

KUDOS.

Excellent response to a serious question.

Living here can have it's problems but if you prepare for it, adapt and integrate it can also be extremly rewarding.

[Swiss1960]

Why did the victim not amount to much and why don't westerners amount to much in Thailand? I am at a critical point in deciding whether to come or go (to Thailand) and need answers to this.

I would not normally have bothered to contribute a post to an all too common thread like this, but your post seems to be both genuine and poignant.

I'll leave the speculation on this man's tragic suicide to others.

It is extremely difficult to know where to begin. I won't bore you and everyone else with my life story and history, but I do feel that I am adequately qualified, albeit if only from experience and not academic qualifications, to have an opinion on your question.

'Westerners don't amount to much' A bit harsh, but in alot of cases, close to the bone. The underlying problem? Racism, parochialism, nationalism. An attitude which has increased exponentially in the 40+ years I have been frequenting and living here.

Could you imagine living in England, Australia or the USA and being illiterate. What a bloody unthinkable nightmare! (I am a white 5th generation Australian BTW) Lacking understanding of the local language, culture, customs, history and traditions. Which is what the majority of westerners are faced with in the LOS. Or. Being black? or Asian. White folks, historically, are not exactly used to being on the receiving end of racism, since the West has ruled the world for centuries.. Racism doesn't have to be a nasty experience all the time either, nor is it a one sided phenomenon of the human species. 'Racism' can still exist even in a convivial, good natured environment. As it often does in Thailand. it is not a good place to be should you be in anyway paranoid. Taking yourself too seriously and lacking the ability to laugh at yourself is also not a good idea.

I spent over 20 years in Oz married to a Thai. I experienced her experience, daily. Extreme right wing white supremists are easily dealt with and dismissed with contempt. The more subtle, two-faced forms of racism is what really gets to people. And it can get to us as suredly as it can to someone who is both black and illiterate in an educated all white community. I can say in all honesty that my wife and her daughter, who came with us at the age of 10, never fully integrated into Australia society. Like the majority of farangs here, they too kept to their own Thai ex pat communities and had few Australian friends. But 27 years later, they both choose to stay in Oz, whilst I baled out, permanently, to the LOS. In Australia we have laws against racial vilification and discrimination. In Thailand they have laws for it. it is not easy to cope with at times and one must develope the right kind of mindset to deal with it. Everyday can be a challenge. It can get you down. It can be rather detrimental to your well-being if you are predisposed to depression and paranoia. Depression and suicide rates for Australian males are soaring as it is. Without coming here. Travel around Australia and you will see no end of racist bumper stickers and T shirts - all under the guise of patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel), at least Thai taxis have 'I love Farang' stickers on them!

Moving outside of your station and place in life, and your comfort zone is not an easy thing to do. It is not something one should do on a whim, nor take lightly. You should be comfortable and happy in keeping your own company. You should have hobbies and interests to keep yourself acvtive and busy. This does not include propping up Ex Pat Bars all day discussing Thai women and politics. There is a big difference between being a tourist and being a permanent resident! A huge difference. You should learn to understand that difference. It also helps if you were successful in your own life and career in your own country before you come here. Arriving here already as a 'loser' in your personal life and career is a recipe for disaster. Whilst it is great for ones self esteem and ego, intially, as there is nothing like sitting in a bar with a veritable smorgasboard of attractive, hard bodied young girls being told how handsome, strong and intelligent you are. But stay here long enough and one day reality will set in. Another fallacy. Thais don't necessarily make better wives than western women either!!!! Another big mistake is to put yourself above them and to believe that you are better and smarter than 'them'. Because you are not and they will set about to prove it to you, eventually, one way or the other.

Briefly - On the subject of Marriage, relationships and SEX. if that's why you are coming here then all I can say is, good luck! Take a ticket in the Thai lottery whilst you are at it. The odds of being a 'winner' are perhaps about the same!

Check out Jane Elliott's Brown Eye-Blue Eye Experiment.

I live, one out, single, retired, in an all Thai environment - have done for many years now. I decided that I would not do what my wife and daughter did in Australia. That I would assimilate and integrate into the Thai community as much as possible. And I don't mean by buying them either. I don't have enough money to do that anyway. I set about making sure that my only Thai friends would not just be girls who worked in bars and their pimps, But then, always remember, that even if I did want to, I can never be Thai and I am always going to be the odd man out and different to those I live amongst.

It is all about respect. How would a foreigner living in my country, earn my respect? Well? Apply that logic to your own self. Respect is a two way thing, it is not automatic, it must be given in order to be received. Respect is what you should strive for. Some Thais may not like you, for what you are, but they can still respect you for who you are, and that is the crux of the matter from a personal level.

Viva le difference.

I shall now await the usual, expected, sarcasm and vitriol.

My Respect! Whilst I would not put racism that high (in Thailand), I agree with all the rest

[ALFREDO]

Are we sure it was sucide we know how the police here jump to conclusions. maybe the staff did him in, in a plot to take all of his valuables and he fought back and they had to finish him off.

In the last similar incident and suicide in a shooting range, they had a CCTV, showing the suicide.

I do not know now here.

Anyway, the dead Brit, had still 7.000 Baht on him as the News channel wrote.

Kill and leave a monthly Thai salary untouched?

-moe666-, -happysanook- who liked that posting, seem to look to many B-movies!

[ALFREDO]

Also, the poor employee who had to witness this gruesome sight, when he's probably just working a low-paying job.

He doesn't look too shook up in the picture. Savouring his few minutes of fame? And why the pointed finger? Could anybody not know that was the corpse?

TIT, they like to do Official picture taking like that, never seen before? The Thai police, love that finger pointing on nearly every witness photo.