My first topic in Bedlam. So here it is...

Chaos Theory, which according to the Consise OED is the branch of mathematics that deals with complex systems whose behaviour is highly sensitive to slight changes in conditions, so that small alterations can give rise to strikingly great consequences.

Does Chaos Theory (CT) prove the existance of Intelligent design?

Does Chaos Theory (CT) prove the existance of Intelligent design?

I have this sign above my desk that says:

Only a fool tidys up;

a Genius is the master of chaos.

I suppose, you could say, its design is fairly intelligent.

PS. Best of luck with your new thread.

Chaos theory is a 2nd (and higher) order study of the effects of initial conditions on divergent and convergent behavior of mathematical and physical systems.

How to explain this... hmmmm, ok there are some mathematical and physical phenomenon which are modelled using what's called an "iterative" process. That means you take the result of the last calculation and put it back into the formula to get the next result, and then do it again, and again, and again. The problem is that for many of these calculations, there is no shortcut- you can't make a formula to give you the answer 100 steps down the way- the only way to get there is putting the answer back into the formula 100 times. This is called "computational irreducibility."

One wouldn't expect that such systems would have any inherently predictable patterns, but in fact some of them do. Chaos theory is the branch of mathematics and science which tries to categorise and predict the predictable parts of chaos and use them to advantage.

"Steven"

Chaos Theory tell you that you can't control anything, and the order du jour will be destroyed sooner than later by the next cahos. Revolution in perpetual motion. Chaos Theory basically tells you that there is a certain order in chaos, and that any order is inherently chaotic.

The most commonly held misconception about chaos theory is that chaos theory is about disorder. Nothing could be further from the truth! Chaos theory is not about disorder! It does not disprove determinism or dictate that ordered systems are impossible; it does not invalidate experimental evidence or claim that modelling complex systems is useless. The "chaos" in chaos theory is order--not simply order, but the very ESSENCE of order.

It is true that chaos theory dictates that minor changes can cause huge fluctuations. But one of the central concepts of chaos theory is that while it is impossible to exactly predict the state of a system, it is generally quite possible, even easy, to model the overall behavior of a system. Thus, chaos theory lays emphasis not on the disorder of the system--the inherent unpredictability of a system--but on the order inherent in the system--the universal behavior of similar systems.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/chaos_intro.html

To my understanding it is about the interrelatedness of events and the unpredictability of how a change in one aspect will affect the other parts.

It is often used as an argument against the notion of man being able to control nature.

My first topic in Bedlam. So here it is...

Chaos Theory, which according to the Consise OED is the branch of mathematics that deals with complex systems whose behaviour is highly sensitive to slight changes in conditions, so that small alterations can give rise to strikingly great consequences.

Chaos Theory is translated in American English as "snafu"!

Situation normal, all f___ed up!

To understand chaos theory as it relates to Thailand (as we surely must) observe Thai's as they "queue" at the 7/11 counter or a bus stop. Although it appears to be disordered, the behavior of the queue, overall, is quite predictable.

Oddly enough, understanding this phenomena can be used to deal with, say, customers in a waiting area (bank, fast food restaurant) much more efficiently than Western notions of first-come-first-served.

I'm not going to add any more definitions of Chaos Theory, there are some good explainations above and Thomas Merto's link is excellent.

I will however answer the second part of the OP's question 'Can Chaos Theory prove the existance of Creative Design (We used to call this Creationism)?'

In a word No.

Quite the contrary, 'Fractals' (Part of the set of mathematics termed Chaos) are used to test and demonstrate the reliability of Evolution Theory, and have been used to accurately predict a series of evolutions in the flu virus.

I think that some people are taking the movie Jurassic Park too literally.

I'm not going to add any more definitions of Chaos Theory, there are some good explainations above and Thomas Merto's link is excellent.

I will however answer the second part of the OP's question 'Can Chaos Theory prove the existance of Creative Design (We used to call this Creationism)?'

In a word No.

Quite the contrary, 'Fractals' (Part of the set of mathematics termed Chaos) are used to test and demonstrate the reliability of Evolution Theory, and have been used to accurately predict a series of evolutions in the flu virus.

Good post. However, I would disagree with the statement "Quite the contrary". Creative diesign or creationism, cannot be proven by science, and neither can evolution! Creative design is being currently used as an expression to state that all is created, and this doesn't exclude evolution. Whereas 'creationism' is generally used to describe creation without evolution.

A point worthy of note is that certain things cannot be predicted, ie the basis of chaos theory. But a belief in an omnipotent God who knows the beginning from the end means that all is in His control and knowledge. So for me, Chaos Theory proves the existance of an omnipotent God.

Just a small point to close. Many people use 'evolution' when what they more correctly mean is 'development'.

It doesn't prove anything, unless you believe already that there is an omnipotent god, in which case almost anything can be taken to confirm his existence.

Chaos theory simply doesn't disprove the existence of god.

Nothing new here, really.

It doesn't prove anything, unless you believe already that there is an omnipotent god, in which case almost anything can be taken to confirm his existence.

Chaos theory simply doesn't disprove the existence of god.

Nothing new here, really.

Once again, an excellent post. I suppose, somewhat philosophically, that could be said of anything. It does depend on your starting point. A couple of years ago I read a book on Chaos Theory which had large sections on the weather and on outer space. I immediately saw God's hand at work in the creation of these things. I can appreciate though, how a non-beliver would see nothing of the kind!

Does Chaos Theory (CT) prove the existance of Intelligent design?

I have this sign above my desk that says:

Only a fool tidys up;

a Genius is the master of chaos.

I suppose, you could say, its design is fairly intelligent.

PS. Best of luck with your new thread.

You ought to tell your printer to either buy a dictionary or hire a literate employee.

Does Chaos Theory (CT) prove the existance of Intelligent design?

I have this sign above my desk that says:

Only a fool tidys up;

a Genius is the master of chaos.

I suppose, you could say, its design is fairly intelligent.

PS. Best of luck with your new thread.

You ought to tell your printer to either buy a dictionary or hire a literate employee.

My authority for spelling - doesn't anyone read the net ettiquette rules from the old days before pretty pictures came to the Internet: bad form to criticise another posters spelling given the diverse nationalities posting - is George Bernard Shaw.

Isn't English your native language, TM?

Does Chaos Theory (CT) prove the existance of Intelligent design?

I have this sign above my desk that says:

Only a fool tidys up;

a Genius is the master of chaos.

I suppose, you could say, its design is fairly intelligent.

PS. Best of luck with your new thread.

You ought to tell your printer to either buy a dictionary or hire a literate employee.

My authority for spelling - doesn't anyone read the net ettiquette rules from the old days before pretty pictures came to the Internet: bad form to criticise another posters spelling given the diverse nationalities posting - is George Bernard Shaw.

GBS is dead. The rules of netiquette are there to make allowances for those whose mother tongue is not English. Your previous posts on TV prove your fluency in English. The modern spellling is 'tidies'.

I hope this doesn't turn into a chaotic thread about spelling and netiquette!

Alhough, maybe this would prove 'intelligent design'! Or maybe not!

I hope this doesn't turn into a chaotic thread about spelling and netiquette!

Alhough, maybe this would prove 'intelligent design'! Or maybe not!

Sorry. I shall say no more

Isn't English your native language, TM?

Interesting question.

I was born in the mandate of Palestine in 1947. I am fluent in English, Danish, Norwegan and Swedish. I speak Hebrew, French, a little Arabic and can get around in Thai.

In how many languages are you native?

I speak Chaos....

Or as a good friend and fellow poster likes to say

I speak two languages... English.... then Bullsh6t...

Kayo speaka spanich, fwemch, Eenglieesh, nethralandinsh, and nit nit nowy thai, chai mai?

Isn't English your native language, TM?

Interesting question.

I was born in the mandate of Palestine in 1947. I am fluent in English, Danish, Norwegan and Swedish. I speak Hebrew, French, a little Arabic and can get around in Thai.

In how many languages are you native?

Your sentence should end with "in" and you can only be native IN one language, the rest are secondary. Now stop showing off, no one really cares.

Great thread Suegha!

I ask you though, would you have seen God's hand at work if you were not already a Christian? Remove yourself from the faith aspect and than ask yourself what you see when viewing this theory in action. What would it mean without faith?

´ere we go again... This time we got tbb vs. TM ....

´ere we go again... This time we got tbb vs. TM ....

Who you got money on?

I´ll let you know...

Sorry suegha, you are going to have to do better.

Scientific/Mathematical Theories do not prove anything; they illustrate or demonstrate a preposition/hypothesis on reality.

What we term as 'Scientific/Mathematical Proof, is actually Scientific/Mathematical Demonstration'

Intelligent Design is an example of a hypothesis for which no mathematical/scientific proof exists.

If you know of a demonstratable proof let me know.

Stating that Chaos Theorem is a proof of Intelligent Design is clutching at straws and, I would add, misunderstanding what Chaos Theory is actually about.

I understand that the existence of a mathematical tool that might demonstrate the behavior of complex systems is attractive to people who are looking for proof of divine intervention. But don't get lost in the language.

Chaos theory cam be applied to describe the interaction between elements of complex systems, it can, and is more often used to generate pretty patterns. But it is above all a mathematical tool. It is predictable and has its basis in the same mathematics we use to describe the rest of the universe we live in.

It is above all things - NOT MYSTICAL.

Darwin put an end to creation, it is his theories you need to address, not just what he said but the constant refinement and convergence of scientific evidence that demonstrates his theory to be correct.

Grasping at a mathematical tool is a sideshow - Tackle Darwin!

Your sentence should end with "in" and you can only be native IN one language,

Tell that to the Belgians, Swiss and at least half a dozen other nationalities.

Sorry suegha, you are going to have to do better.

Darwin put an end to creation, it is his theories you need to address, not just what he said but the constant refinement and convergence of scientific evidence that demonstrates his theory to be correct.

Grasping at a mathematical tool is a sideshow - Tackle Darwin!

Excellent post GuestHouse.

Ehh, how did Darwin get into this discussion? And I don't think Darwin's theory of evolution is generally accepted as the truth? I thought it's one of those concepts which make perfect sense if you accept the basis, but cannot be proved?

Ehh, how did Darwin get into this discussion? And I don't think Darwin's theory of evolution is generally accepted as the truth? I thought it's one of those concepts which make perfect sense if you accept the basis, but cannot be proved?

No theory can be proved.

Scientific theories are never proven to be true, but can be disproven. All scientific understanding takes the form of hypotheses, or conjectures. A theory is in this context a set of hypotheses that are logically bound together.

There are two uses of the word theory; a supposition which is not backed by observation is known as a conjecture, and if backed by observation it is a hypothesis. Most theory evolves from hypotheses, but the reverse is not true: many hypotheses turn out to be false and so do not evolve into theory.

A theory is different from a theorem. The former is a model of physical events and cannot be proved from basic axioms. The latter is a statement of mathematical fact which logically follows from a set of axioms. A theory is also different from a physical law in that the latter is a model of reality, whereas the former is an explanatory statement of what has been observed, explaining the why and how of the observed physical law.

Theories can become accepted if they are able to make correct predictions and avoid incorrect ones. Theories which are simpler, and more mathematically elegant, tend to be accepted over theories which are complex. Theories are more likely to be accepted if they connect a wide range of phenomena. The process of accepting theories, or of extending existing theory, is part of the scientific method.