Thai Govt's Flood Plans Doomed To Fail, Engineers Warn

[webfact]

Flood plans doomed to fail, engineers warn
Pongphon Sarnsamak
The Nation



BANGKOK: -- The government's ambitious Bt350 billion water and flood management plans will likely fail to be completed within the five-year deadline due to environmental hurdles and opposition from communities over land expropriation, the Engineering Institute of Thailand (EIT) warned yesterday.

The flood-management plans for dams, reservoirs, a massive diversion channel and retention areas would be required to undergo environmental and health impact assessments. The massive projects will also require the cooperation of local communities and will take up large amounts of land. These processes, especially environmental assessment, will take at least two years to complete for each project, the EIT said.

Moreover, some projects will take more than five years negotiate the land deals with locals in order to avoid lawsuits, said EIT chairman Suwat Chaopreecha.

"Generally, the contractors need at least two years to negotiate with local people and ask them to move from their land. It is not so easy to do that and start a massive project like this," he said.

He was speaking at a seminar of water experts and engineers to discuss the pros and cons of the terms of reference (ToR) of the water and flood management plans approved by the Cabinet on Tuesday. The projects were distributed to the six contenders for contracts on Wednesday.

"I predict that this enormous water project will be impossible to complete within five years," Suwat said. "If Deputy Prime Minister Plodprasob Suraswadi, who oversees the Water and Flood Management Commission, can complete all these projects within the deadline, we will create a monument to pay the tribute to him as he has done something good for country."

As an example of how long such mega-projects can take, Suwat cited the Mae Wong Dam in Nakhon Sawan, which has been in the planning stages for more than 30 years but has yet to be approved by the Office of Natural Resources and Environmental Policy and Planning (ONEP), due to incomplete environmental assessments.

Bancha Kwanyeun, associate professor and dean of Kasetsart University’s Faculty of Engineering, said the biggest project - the flood diversion channel - also faces the biggest hurdles, because of the massive amount of land needed.

The channel, which would in effect become Thailand's third-largest river and drain parts of the Chao Phraya River basin at a rate of 1,500 cubic metre per second, would require expropriation of at least 10,000 rai. It would affect communities in Nakhon Sawan, Chai Nat, Ang Thong, Nakhon Pathom, Suphan Buri, Ratchaburi, Kanchanaburi, Samut Prakan and Samut Sakhon.

"It won't be easy to tell local people to accept the compensation for the land expropriation and locate to another area," he said.

Instead of building the diversion channel, Bancha suggested eliminating bottlenecks in the river, such as in Ayuthaya's Bang Ban district.

"It is not necessary to build the flood diversion channel. All government has to do is destroy the river bottlenecks and improve the river's capacity to drain water," Bancha said.

Other projects, such as the "monkey cheek" water-retention areas will also face opposition from local residents.

Hannarong Yaowalert, president of the Foundation for Integrated Water Management, said the water and flood management plans are likely unconstitutional, and he will submit a petition to Plodprasob to review the bidding processes for all the projects.


-- The Nation 2013-03-22

[waza]

More opposition the PTP's flood mitigation plan that requires emergency funding over a year ago..........

"It is not necessary to build the flood diversion channel. All government has to do is destroy the river bottlenecks and improve the river's capacity to drain water," Bancha said.

"However, Japan's aid agency has presented an alternative plan that costs about half the price, and has questioned some of the assumptions and requirements in the Thai government plan."

"Concerns have been raised about corruption because the government wants financing in place by June without putting the plans before parliament or it seems undertaking environmental and social impact assessments, with Pramon Sutheewong, chairman of the Anti-Corruption Organization of Thailand saying the project clarity and that he isn't sure how the money will be spent or on what projects." http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/The-growing-influence-of-social-media-30193981.html

Still with criticisms like this maybe its better off dying a natural death and the revenue returning to general funds to help support the rice scam.

Edited March 22, 2013 by waza

[Pib]

Thailand has environmental and health concerns? Now that is a news story!!!

[Thai at Heart]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

[chainarong]

All senior heads of departments are Generals as with the respective ministers ,there's ex generals for every square kilometer in Thailand , sticking their nose in the money trough, the problem you have is people in positions who have no idea what a doppler is let alone receiving advise from engineers ,economists etc, they only understand , the sound of votes and the cash register ringing.

[jamhar]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

I was thinking the same thing

I don't know the motivation of this individual. If he thinks the plan is flawed, then he can suggest ways to correct the flaw. Or give an estimate of time to complete even with caveats.

Regardless of how good an engineer is, Having someone this negative, and not offer constructive criticism can be a killer in project just starting out.

If i was this guys boss, I would have to have a serious talk with him,

address his concerns and get him on board, or get him off the project.

But going public with your criticism like this,

is rarely a good thing in engineering.

Edited March 22, 2013 by jamhar

[MaxLee]

The government officials who plan anything like Mega projects always listen to no one other than themselves... Everything that is controlled by the government, will end up in a disaster...

[robblok]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

I was thinking the same thing

I don't know the motivation of this individual. If he thinks the plan is flawed, then he can suggest ways to correct the flaw. Or give an estimate of time to complete even with caveats.

Regardless of how good an engineer is, Having someone this negative, and not offer constructive criticism can be a killer in project just starting out.

If i was this guys boss, I would have to have a serious talk with him,

address his concerns and get him on board, or get him off the project.

But going public with your criticism like this,

is rarely a good thing in engineering.

Going public might be the only way to change something and to be heard. Remember in Thailand its about who you know not what you know.

He did give his view so that was good too.

[Thai at Heart]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

I was thinking the same thing

I don't know the motivation of this individual. If he thinks the plan is flawed, then he can suggest ways to correct the flaw. Or give an estimate of time to complete even with caveats.

Regardless of how good an engineer is, Having someone this negative, and not offer constructive criticism can be a killer in project just starting out.

If i was this guys boss, I would have to have a serious talk with him,

address his concerns and get him on board, or get him off the project.

But going public with your criticism like this,

is rarely a good thing in engineering.

Everybody worries when a government undertakes this type of thing that it won't work. But the gist of the article is that it won't be on time, but the headline suggests complete failure. Crappy headline writers. But then it's the Nation, maybe I expect too much.

Has anyone seen the complete overview of what they intend to do? I expect there will be plenty of extremely expensive conrete poured.

[hellodolly]

He made no mention of the 100 mile long 10 mile deep tunnel.So does he approve of it?

One answer could be do nothing and let Bangkok sink after all it is only a matter of time and they will have to move it anyhow or send experts (don't know where they can find them in Thailand) to Venice and study how they cope with being a semi submerged city.

[MaxLee]

The point is, that jobs that require you to work physically and also mechanically, or what in Thai-High-so is referred to as "dirty work jobs", is sadly been lacking in Thailand, but that's exactly what this country needs.

As I mentioned in previous threads, jobs necessary for this country require:

- Mechanical Engineers

- Natural Environment Science Researchers

- Machinery and Maintenance workers

- Social Security welfare workers

- Road Infrastructure and Security Maintenance people

- Agricultural Science researchers

Unfortunately, jobs in tourism, business aka (rip-off-corruption), property business have the edge over those jobs that are considered barbarically "dirty work"

[Pimay1]

He made no mention of the 100 mile long 10 mile deep tunnel.So does he approve of it?

One answer could be do nothing and let Bangkok sink after all it is only a matter of time and they will have to move it anyhow or send experts (don't know where they can find them in Thailand) to Venice and study how they cope with being a semi submerged city.

A tunnel 53,000 feet below the surface? Surly you jest.

[eddie61]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

------ but GUARRANTEED to be funded on time!

[billd766]

I live on the other side of the Mae Wong national park.

We are supposed to have 2 small dams built for water retention during a drought season (now) and the flooding season in a couple of years.

One area has agreed and the other hasn't.

We haven't had ANY government water in 2 weeks and probably won't get any for another 4 weeks but IF the dam was built we would always have water.

What do I know, I'm just some dumbsh1t farang who has lived here for nearly 9 years and watched the weather cycle from dought to floods on roughly a 5 year cycle.

[Joe Mamma]

It is a respite of environmental damage that will occur from the dams and other non natural manmade crap.

[jvs]

Maybe building an airport in a swamp was not such a good idea?That is where a lot of the problems started,a lot of water was stored there but now has to keep moving.

[bigbamboo]

Really......professional engineers casting doubts about Thailand's esteemed science guru Professor Plodiplops.

Zebra burger, anyone?

[Kitbaikitmah]

I wonder...what is the proportion of 'wringing-hands' to 'shaking-hands' with the prospect of such a huge five project?

[rubl]

THe flooding plans may be doomed because there is no good, detailed plan yet and therefor the government might not be able to borrow those THB 350 billion which was authorized in January 2012 in a hastily pushed through decree which expires July 2013.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

Both!!! It seems doomed not to start actually.

Why don't they listen to the experts view that imply that debottling is the answer??

[belg]

they can just drop the project and pocket the ususal 30% graft, much cheaper than to actually do something ...

thainess says: it only happens once every 100 years, so they are safe for the next 3 generations

[Thai at Heart]

Is it doomed to fail, or is it doomed to not be completed on time?

Both!!! It seems doomed not to start actually.

Why don't they listen to the experts view that imply that debottling is the answer??

Do you really believe they could have not had any floods a few years ago if they had simply straightened the river and made the water flow better.

I reckon huge parts of Bangkok would have gone under, but I guess that is to be expected. What I doubt completely is that they can make a completely integrated system from Sukhothai down to organise all of this. They couldn't even organise 3 or 4 damns at a go, what hope a greatly increased integrated system.

[drdoom6996]

Anybody that has been here for the last 20 months know that everything that the PTP does is doomed to fail except CORRUPTION. The PTP will never stop stealing from their own people.

[drdoom6996]

It is a respite of environmental damage that will occur from the dams and other non natural manmade crap.

And you have been to these areas and deemed them to be the problem have you. And no one ever knew you were available for the project.

[SICHONSTEVE]

It is a respite of environmental damage that will occur from the dams and other non natural manmade crap.

And you have been to these areas and deemed them to be the problem have you. And no one ever knew you were available for the project.

What on earth are you on about? Why do you ask if he has been to these areas - it is common knowledge that the damage caused by these dams far outweighs the benefits and creates massive disruption to the environment and people's livelihoods.

This is no different to saying that you don't believe someone who heard a football score on the radio because they didn't go to the match in question!!!

[atyclb]

I'd put my faith in the Japanese plan. They have real education that produces real engineers not to mention huge experience in water management. The Japanese also learn from their mistakes and improve/correct issues.

The big Thai dilemma for the Japanese plan is the Japanese have said they can do it for 175 billion, half the Thai imagined price. This would not leave enough padding for corruption fees as it is public knowledge already.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I'd put my faith in the Japanese plan. They have real education that produces real engineers not to mention huge experience in water management. The Japanese also learn from their mistakes and improve/correct issues.

The big Thai dilemma for the Japanese plan is the Japanese have said they can do it for 175 billion, half the Thai imagined price. This would not leave enough padding for corruption fees as it is public knowledge already.

....and they can't have these interfering farangs telling us what to do (even if they know what they are talking about and doing and we don't)!!

[Locationthailand]

I just love this... "... Suwat said. "If Deputy Prime Minister Plodprasob Suraswadi, who oversees the Water and Flood Management Commission, can complete all these projects within the deadline, we will create a monument to pay the tribute to him as he has done something good for country."

So there are Thai who realise what a joke some of the parliamentarians are.

[Thai at Heart]

I'd put my faith in the Japanese plan. They have real education that produces real engineers not to mention huge experience in water management. The Japanese also learn from their mistakes and improve/correct issues.

The big Thai dilemma for the Japanese plan is the Japanese have said they can do it for 175 billion, half the Thai imagined price. This would not leave enough padding for corruption fees as it is public knowledge already.

....and they can't have these interfering farangs telling us what to do (even if they know what they are talking about and doing and we don't)!!

Hey, during the flood, probably 90% of Thai's believed that Plodprasob could push water uphill.

But then, there are people who believe that Jesus parted the Dead Sea, so, I guess it's all relative when it comes to farangs.

[waza]

I'd put my faith in the Japanese plan. They have real education that produces real engineers not to mention huge experience in water management. The Japanese also learn from their mistakes and improve/correct issues.

The big Thai dilemma for the Japanese plan is the Japanese have said they can do it for 175 billion, half the Thai imagined price. This would not leave enough padding for corruption fees as it is public knowledge already.

....and they can't have these interfering farangs telling us what to do (even if they know what they are talking about and doing and we don't)!!

Hey, during the flood, probably 90% of Thai's believed that Plodprasob could push water uphill.

But then, there are people who believe that Jesus parted the Dead Sea, so, I guess it's all relative when it comes to farangs.

No one believe Jesus parted the Red sea, Thai at Heart, because the story goes Moses parted the Red sea while fleeing from Egypt.

Edited March 22, 2013 by waza