Foreigner In An Accident, At Fault By Default?

[bdenner]

Moral of the story/stories, avoid accidents anywhere, much safer, easier and less likely to cost you an arm and a leg.. Drive defensively..

Probably makes a LITTLE sense! BUT what would you do 'defensively' eg. Stopped in a row of traffic at an intersection and some kid texting whilst riding a bike hits you?

"avoid accidents anywhere" Stay at home and not go out!!!!

[chiang mai]

Utter nonsense, had an accident with 3 teens on a motorbike who crashed into me. Went to the cop shop with my insurance man, cleared of any blame, their insurance paid for my damage.

And I've had similar experiences, I've had two accidents where other cars.bikes hit mine and the police were called (by me). In the first example the cop instructed the other driver to pay me (she had no insurance) and wouldn't release her drivers license until she did so - in the second example the police and the insurance reps for both parties agreed the other person was at fault.

The golden rule for accidents is to let your insurance rep sort it all out and don't get involved other than to answer his questions.

Edited April 20, 2013 by chiang mai

[WarpSpeed]

Moral of the story/stories, avoid accidents anywhere, much safer, easier and less likely to cost you an arm and a leg.. Drive defensively..

Probably makes a LITTLE sense! BUT what would you do 'defensively' eg. Stopped in a row of traffic at an intersection and some kid texting whilst riding a bike hits you?

"avoid accidents anywhere" Stay at home and not go out!!!!

Not quite sure why you're getting all defensive? my comment was across the board and not directed at anyone in particular hence the "story/stories" reference.. Having said that, usually where there's smoke there's fire and getting all jumpy about it kinda incriminates you just a bit, maybe there's more to the story that was left out?..

Edited April 21, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[stevenl]

Moral of the story/stories, avoid accidents anywhere, much safer, easier and less likely to cost you an arm and a leg.. Drive defensively..

Probably makes a LITTLE sense! BUT what would you do 'defensively' eg. Stopped in a row of traffic at an intersection and some kid texting whilst riding a bike hits you?

"avoid accidents anywhere" Stay at home and not go out!!!!

Most accidents happen at home.

[bdenner]

Not quite sure why you're getting all defensive? my comment was across the board and not directed at anyone in particular hence the "story/stories" reference.. Having said that, usually where there's smoke there's fire and getting all jumpy about it kinda incriminates you just a bit, maybe there's more to the story that was left out?..

You need to go back and reread your comment! All I'm saying some shlt is inevitable and no end of avoidance or defensive driving is going to help.

[richard_smith237]

I had another accident in Bangkok. This time a speeding brand new Honda Accord rammed into my car coming from nowhere. My car was seriously damaged and same with the other car. My insurance company came to the accident scene and the Thai guy didn't have any car insurance. My insurance called the police to come over because of that. A police officer came to the accident scene. My insurance company was talking with the police officer when this girl arrived to the accident scene. She talked with the Thai guy that was implicated in the accident and then made a phone call. She talked for a few minutes before handing her cellphone to the police officer. The police officer talked for a few minutes before hanging up. He then say that everybody need to go to the police station to fill a report. Once arrived at the police station, the police didn't ask us to make a report or anything like that. They just gave a paper to my insurance company and say that it was my fault and that the insurance company should cover the damages to both cars. Pretty weird ??? I tried to ask questions but they just insisted that I sign the paper. I talked with the insurance guy and he told me to sign the paper. Once I got out of the police station, the insurance guy told me that this guy was wrong and didn't have any car insurance (he should have been held responsible of the accident and should pay for the damages) but the problem is that him or someone close to him (probably that girl) had connections with some police officers.

I had a similar situation where under fairly similar circumstances the police at first told me it was my fault (this involved an mini-van company operating on an illegal route (which the police must have allowed), I also witnessed a 'pay off' so I saw why the police wanted to side with the mini-van when the boss (apparently) of the Van company turned up at the station with cash in hand).

I knew I was not 100% to blame, as such I refused to accept blame and stood firm for 24 hours (we were permitted to go home for the night). The decision was pushed up the chain and a decision was reached that I was satisfied with.

I wasn't willing to accept 100% of the blame, but as the other vehicle had no insurance I would accept that the insurance covers my car only (50% blame).

If an accident is not our fault we don't need to accept responsibility even when the police try and direct us to take the blame. We can contest a decision and its easy to do so, just be balanced, polite and firm but not aggressive or edgy.

But - if its a motorcycle who's dinged your car (i.e. a little scratch) there is no reason to take him to the cleaners for a new door.... equally so, there is no reason for you to take the blame if it is the motorcycle who clipped you while you were stationary and came a cropper.

Best course of protection: Get a dash cam which should cover you for the majority of events.

[richard_smith237]

Not quite sure why you're getting all defensive? my comment was across the board and not directed at anyone in particular hence the "story/stories" reference.. Having said that, usually where there's smoke there's fire and getting all jumpy about it kinda incriminates you just a bit, maybe there's more to the story that was left out?..

You need to go back and reread your comment! All I'm saying some shlt is inevitable and no end of avoidance or defensive driving is going to help.

I'm sure most people consider that they drive very defensively - particularly us Westerners who consider our driver education better than that afforded to the Thai population.

However, it doesn't really matter how defensively we drive - at some point it will be impossible to avoid the motorcycle, bus, lorry, car etc that doesn't see the red light at an intersection and smashes into the side/rear of us... and lets face it, sometimes it might be our own fault... no one is perfect.

[chiang mai]

It's true in many more cases than you'd care to be comfortable with. Personally, I have paid out for an accident caused by someone who rear-ended me. Often, the on-the-spot criteria for innocence or guilt is "who is the richest/most able to pay" the damages.

By "on-the-spot," I mean any of the following:

• a kangaroo court immediately formed by bystanders,
• an incompetent or easily-swayed insurance agent,
• a policeman who wants to settle things quickly (or get a bribe),
• a wayward judge, or...
• any combination of the above.

  It happens. Be prepared for it.

That's not the Thailand I've lived in for the past ten years!.

[WarpSpeed]

Not quite sure why you're getting all defensive? my comment was across the board and not directed at anyone in particular hence the "story/stories" reference.. Having said that, usually where there's smoke there's fire and getting all jumpy about it kinda incriminates you just a bit, maybe there's more to the story that was left out?..

You need to go back and reread your comment! All I'm saying some shlt is inevitable and no end of avoidance or defensive driving is going to help.

NO I don't, I wrote it, I know what the content is and the intent, practice your comprehension..

Edited April 21, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Not quite sure why you're getting all defensive? my comment was across the board and not directed at anyone in particular hence the "story/stories" reference.. Having said that, usually where there's smoke there's fire and getting all jumpy about it kinda incriminates you just a bit, maybe there's more to the story that was left out?..

You need to go back and reread your comment! All I'm saying some shlt is inevitable and no end of avoidance or defensive driving is going to help.

I'm sure most people consider that they drive very defensively - particularly us Westerners who consider our driver education better than that afforded to the Thai population.

However, it doesn't really matter how defensively we drive - at some point it will be impossible to avoid the motorcycle, bus, lorry, car etc that doesn't see the red light at an intersection and smashes into the side/rear of us... and lets face it, sometimes it might be our own fault... no one is perfect.

While I know I'm going to hear a bunch of rubbish about how perfect I am with rolling eyes smilies and the like on this but facts are facts and they are undeniable, so I do find it funny as I managed to drive there for 10 years and never had so much as a scratch and that was primarily in Bangkok most of the time except about a year in Phuket and come to think of it the few times I had an opportunity to race there or elsewhere in Asia I managed without any incidents too and that wasn't sightseeing around the course, so I KNOW I'm driving better than the highest percentage but honestly that's not surprising based on what I've seen, heard and read, case and point..

The truth is that most westerners don't have the experience of the chaos that is Thai roads and drivers and don't process their surroundings fast enough or review where they're going or where they've been & therefore rely too much on their western driving sensibilities that don't apply there and are a detriment to them rather then a benefit. The rules have changed for them and mostly after years of having it their own way, so it's difficult to make the adjustment and it's quite an adjustment.

There is no real fairness or sense of "that's my lane entitlement" there like in the west with enforced laws or driver consideration, it's much like racing where you take your piece of the road and full time awareness without letting down your guard and why I flourished there and knew that coming back here was going to suck on that regard honestly . I had much more freedom and sense of familiarity driving there.

I know you think those are unavoidable accidents and I'm not speaking to any given instance that only one side of the facts are being presented but still there is defensive tactics for example in NOT putting yourself in the situation in the first place by reading the traffic around you and the mentality of the people you're on the road with..

Edited April 21, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[AsiaTraveler1234]

I rented a car in Hua Hin, Thailand this week (March 2023) from Easy Car Rental. They are good because insurance is automatically included with all their rentals, plus they offer free drop off and pickup at locations of your choosing.

 

On my third day of the rental, I was making a right turn onto a very busy highway. I saw a small opening in the oncoming traffic, so I proceeded to make the turn assuming the approaching traffic would slow down to let me through, but it didn't. A car hit the back right of my car as I was making the turn, causing minor damage to both vehicles but allowing both cars to remain operational.

 

I believe I was at fault since I, technically, shouldn't have attempted the turn, but the highway was so busy that without doing so the traffic likely never would have had an opening. It was either I make the turn or sit there indefinitely since there was no traffic light at the intersection and an endless supply of approaching cars on the road.

 

I don't speak Thai and wasn't sure what to do. A girl was driving the other car that hit me, so she was on her phone making calls. I asked her in English to call the police, and an officer on a motorbike showed up.

 

A few minutes later, an unknown male shows up who knows the woman and is with her for the remainder of the time. Perhaps her boyfriend or brother. I ask for her license to take a picture, and he tries to hand me his license even though he wasn't driving the car or otherwise involved in the accident. I point to her and motioned that she was driving the car, so I need to take a photo of her license. She gives it to me and I take the picture. I later realize she was driving with an expired license.

 

The motorbike office, who was very polite and friendly, told me the couple wants to file a report at the police station, and that this officer doesn't typically work in this area so he will now leave, but that I should follow the couple to the police station.

 

At the police station, everyone is speaking Thai so I have no clue what is going on. I assume this guy likely said he was driving the car since she didn't have to pay any fine, but I have no way to know for sure. All the documents were written in Thai, too. I called the Tourist Police and asked for an English translator to come to the police station, which eventually happened. His English was limited and therefore he couldn't translate the documents entirely but rather just gave me a general synopsis of what the documents are.

 

At the end of the day, I had to pay a 400 baht ($11 USD) fine to the police for making the turn without allowing for sufficient space. The insurance adjusters, both speaking only Thai, found me at fault so I had to pay a 5,000 baht ($150 USD) deductible to the rental car company.

 

In the end, I paid about $160 for an accident that I guess was my fault, despite the fact the woman was driving on an expired license and could have easily slowed down to avoid hitting me if she were paying attention (she likely was texting while driving or something along those lines). I'm just glad I wasn't on a motorbike or things could have been much worse.

 

I'm merely sharing this story as an example of what happens when a foreigner is involved in an auto accident in Thailand.

 

Lessons learned:

1. The insurance adjusters, not the police, determine who is at fault in an accident.

2. Better to wait indefinitely (even if for hours) to make turns on busy highways. The time spent at the police station and dealing with insurance is likely much longer (the whole accident process was about 2-3 hours).

3. Always get local insurance when renting cars. I typically don't and was lucky I rented with Easy Car Rental which automatically includes it with all their rentals.

4. Avoid renting cars in foreign countries, generally, and use public transport or hire a private driver to minimize risk.

 

I hope someone finds this story useful! ????

 

[Ralf001]

9 minutes ago, AsiaTraveler1234 said:

 

 

I'm merely sharing this story as an example of what happens when a foreigner is involved in an auto accident in Thailand.

 

 

 

You are at fault regardless of the licence expiry of the girl.... or that she "could have slowed down".... nothing to do with you being an import.

[AsiaTraveler1234]

23 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

You are at fault regardless of the licence expiry of the girl.... or that she "could have slowed down".... nothing to do with you being an import.

Thanks for letting me know. I feel much better about it now.

 

Do you also happen to know the following:

 

1. If the police and insurance knew she was driving on an expired license, would my insurance (i.e., the car rental company's insurance) still pay for the damage to her vehicle?

 

2. Would she have been fined by the police for driving on an expired licence? If so, how much is that fine?

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by AsiaTraveler1234
clarity, further questions

[Ralf001]

34 minutes ago, AsiaTraveler1234 said:

Thanks for letting me know. I feel much better about it now.

 

Do you also happen to know the following:

 

1. If the police and insurance knew she was driving on an expired license, would my insurance (i.e., the car rental company's insurance) still pay for the damage to her vehicle?

 

2. Would she have been fined by the police for driving on an expired licence? If so, how much is that fine?

 

 

1. I do not work the rental company insurance company so cannot comment on their policies.

 

2. Police discretion if they issue a fine or not but currently the fine for unlicenced is (as far as I know ) Bt.400.00.

[AsiaTraveler1234]

45 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

1. I do not work the rental company insurance company so cannot comment on their policies.

 

2. Police discretion if they issue a fine or not but currently the fine for unlicenced is (as far as I know ) Bt.400.00.

Thank you!

[KannikaP]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:31 AM, AsiaTraveler1234 said:

I rented a car in Hua Hin, Thailand this week (March 2023) from Easy Car Rental. They are good because insurance is automatically included with all their rentals, plus they offer free drop off and pickup at locations of your choosing.

 

On my third day of the rental, I was making a right turn onto a very busy highway. I saw a small opening in the oncoming traffic, so I proceeded to make the turn assuming the approaching traffic would slow down to let me through, but it didn't. A car hit the back right of my car as I was making the turn, causing minor damage to both vehicles but allowing both cars to remain operational.

 

I believe I was at fault since I, technically, shouldn't have attempted the turn, but the highway was so busy that without doing so the traffic likely never would have had an opening. It was either I make the turn or sit there indefinitely since there was no traffic light at the intersection and an endless supply of approaching cars on the road.

 

I don't speak Thai and wasn't sure what to do. A girl was driving the other car that hit me, so she was on her phone making calls. I asked her in English to call the police, and an officer on a motorbike showed up.

 

A few minutes later, an unknown male shows up who knows the woman and is with her for the remainder of the time. Perhaps her boyfriend or brother. I ask for her license to take a picture, and he tries to hand me his license even though he wasn't driving the car or otherwise involved in the accident. I point to her and motioned that she was driving the car, so I need to take a photo of her license. She gives it to me and I take the picture. I later realize she was driving with an expired license.

 

The motorbike office, who was very polite and friendly, told me the couple wants to file a report at the police station, and that this officer doesn't typically work in this area so he will now leave, but that I should follow the couple to the police station.

 

At the police station, everyone is speaking Thai so I have no clue what is going on. I assume this guy likely said he was driving the car since she didn't have to pay any fine, but I have no way to know for sure. All the documents were written in Thai, too. I called the Tourist Police and asked for an English translator to come to the police station, which eventually happened. His English was limited and therefore he couldn't translate the documents entirely but rather just gave me a general synopsis of what the documents are.

 

At the end of the day, I had to pay a 400 baht ($11 USD) fine to the police for making the turn without allowing for sufficient space. The insurance adjusters, both speaking only Thai, found me at fault so I had to pay a 5,000 baht ($150 USD) deductible to the rental car company.

 

In the end, I paid about $160 for an accident that I guess was my fault, despite the fact the woman was driving on an expired license and could have easily slowed down to avoid hitting me if she were paying attention (she likely was texting while driving or something along those lines). I'm just glad I wasn't on a motorbike or things could have been much worse.

 

I'm merely sharing this story as an example of what happens when a foreigner is involved in an auto accident in Thailand.

 

Lessons learned:

1. The insurance adjusters, not the police, determine who is at fault in an accident.

2. Better to wait indefinitely (even if for hours) to make turns on busy highways. The time spent at the police station and dealing with insurance is likely much longer (the whole accident process was about 2-3 hours).

3. Always get local insurance when renting cars. I typically don't and was lucky I rented with Easy Car Rental which automatically includes it with all their rentals.

4. Avoid renting cars in foreign countries, generally, and use public transport or hire a private driver to minimize risk.

 

I hope someone finds this story useful! ????

 

Can this post go down as the longest time between original and this reply answer....almost 10 years?   555

[pedro01]

I've had 6 accidents here, one was my fault. The other 5 people just drove into me.

 

- One was a bus with 'brake failure'

- One was an Ikea van skidding into me after hitting a motorbike

- One was a drunk on a motorbike

- One was a pick up with wide wheels who changed lanes into the one I was occupying

- One was a guy turning right while I was going straight

- One was me rear-ending a Camry as I'd gotten distracted by the kid in the back seat

 

They don't call me lucky Larry for nothing.

 

It's nonsense that the farang/richer always pay. The insurance people come out and agree who is at fault and if they don't agree, then it's off to the police station who will make a judgement on who is at fault. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by pedro01

[pedro01]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, AsiaTraveler1234 said:

Thanks for letting me know. I feel much better about it now.

 

Do you also happen to know the following:

 

1. If the police and insurance knew she was driving on an expired license, would my insurance (i.e., the car rental company's insurance) still pay for the damage to her vehicle?

 

2. Would she have been fined by the police for driving on an expired licence? If so, how much is that fine?

 

 

A drunk and uninsured bike hit our 5-series. Our insurance took him to the ATM and made him sign a bunch of direct debits to pay for the repairs. These insurance guys REALLY don't want to pay if their customer isn't at fault.

[NanLaew]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:31 AM, AsiaTraveler1234 said:

I don't speak Thai and wasn't sure what to do.

When you signed the rental contract, didn't the agent at Easy Car Rental give you their contact number AND the contact number for THEIR insurance carrier? What did they tell you do in the event of an accident?

 

That's standard procedure for the main car rental franchises and if these local agencies aren't providing this information and support, they should be avoided.

Edited March 30, 2023 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:36 AM, KannikaP said:

Can this post go down as the longest time between original and this reply answer....almost 10 years?   555

Still relevant no?

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, pedro01 said:

Our insurance took him to the ATM and made him sign a bunch of direct debits to pay for the repairs.

You can do all that at an ATM?

 

Amazing Thailand.

[kwilco]

OP - No! this is absolute nonsense – there is a perception – or even a sickness – amongst some expats that manifests itself as a paranoia that all Thai people are out to get them. Of course this attitude ends up justifying itself as they are the first to complain and create a scene in the event of an accident.

 

 

If you are involved in a crash  then there is a procedure that is VERY IMPORTANT to follow.

 

RING YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY IMMEDIATELY – the reason for this is that they will quickly send an gent to the scene and they act as intermediary between you, the police and other parties – you will hardly need to say a thing. Long rants in English achieve nothing.

 

Check for injuries and emergency care. Make sure someone has rung police or ambulance.

 

Control your temper – foreigners often fail underestimate how losing it will damage the whole process from that moment one

 

Once the other parties are aware you are getting an insurance agent, they will often turn out be open to a compromise – many will back away they might not have insurance or other documents) or don’t want to lose a no claims bonus – so the whole thing might go away.

Obviously your decision will be based on how much damage there is to your vehicle or passengers.

Over 20 of driving in Thailand, I’ve had occasion to call and agent about 3 times and I’ve not been blamed ever and the incidents have always ended amicably.

 

I have also seen foreigners who clearly think if they explain the driving laws of their home country loudly to a local policeman, they will bring about a change in the Thai law from the side of the road. This won’t happen and it won’t help your case.

[pedro01]

17 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

You can do all that at an ATM?

 

Amazing Thailand.

No - the ATM was for the first  payment and to get the bank details

[TravelerEastWest]

On 4/15/2013 at 8:15 PM, Bangkokhatter said:

Utter nonsense, had an accident with 3 teens on a motorbike who crashed into me. Went to the cop shop with my insurance man, cleared of any blame, their insurance paid for my damage.

Agree with you 100%

[richard_smith237]

On 4/16/2013 at 9:29 AM, charlieboz said:

Friend of mine in Phuket nearly died when riding a motorbike; a pickup pulled out without looking from a drive way and my mate plowed into the side. It was his fault as he was the farang was my understanding, even though there where about 8 witnesses who said it was the other guy (who was also drunk as hell). Don't think it happens everytime but it does happen a lot.

I saw that one but heard another from another mate; he stopped to help a thai lady who had come off her bike on chalong hill (a fairly common spot in Phuket). When the police came they asked what happened and the older thai lady pointed at him and said the farang did it! ha ha. Last time he stopped to help someone in an accident

This an example of what can and does happen when he foreigner in involved is simply weak... 

I know people won’t like that, but its a reality - in such cases the Police aren’t really blaming the foreigner, they’re just taking the path of least resistance and if the foreigner quickly accepts blame the BiB can just get one with what ever it was they weren’t doing... 

 

 

[ubonr1971]

On 4/15/2013 at 10:04 PM, poanoi said:

Not necessarily, i had an accident with a woman who without making a signal made a right-turn to the right, and by doing so cut me and we crashed.

She was carrying a baby on her left arm so she was unable to flip on the signal.

As it turned out, she had neither driving license nor insurance,

but who and behold, the police insisted it was my fault, even tho she confessed it was her fault,

so the most the police could bend to was that it was both fault, since she was busy holding a baby while riding.

That was his conclusion.

Sounds like BS. Tell the police you want to take it to court and see what he says. 

[brewsterbudgen]

There really should be a warning that this is a 10-year old thread!

[metisdead]

As noted above, this is a 10 year old topic and now closed.  

 

The person who bumped this topic is free to start their own topic on this matter.