Suegha - I don't want to fall out over this either. What we have here is a Mexican Stand-off, an impasse.

For me and it's only my opinion, anybody who says there IS a God, or, who says there ISN"T a God is one small step up from being a liar.

You cannot prove, or, disprove a God. Anybody that takes a stand either way is basing his belief on something that has no proof. That is why "faith" is so important to religion.

I'll find out the truth when I die. That is good enough for me.

You don't have to be religious to lead a good life. I believe that man-kind is innately good (otherwise we would not have progressed) and most of the ten commandements are self-evident.

You can still lead a good life without the aid of religion.

As that eminent sage (Thomas Merton) on TV said, to misquote "Arguing about what happens when you die is ridiculous".

I think Sir Burr meant to write "eminent sage and onion stuffing" but mistyped - good point though.

In The NT, Jesus did this with his followers - I don't think we can assume he invented this process.

Homer did the same with the Illyad with Archilles heel etc.

...

And we don't take Homer's works as the literal truth either.

And yes Suegha you are bible-thumping and there is nothing objective about religion.

I didn't say religion was objective, (that's another discussion) I said I posted an objective post on a restored Israel and what the bible said 1000s of years ago about it's restoration. It's objective because you can look at the factual evidence of Israel's existance and compare what the bible says. You may not like that fact, but it's there!

Lithuania is also there and it has nothing to do with the bible.

Many people, from Leonardo da Vinci, Nostramus, Star Trek, Arthur C. Clarke and Bill Gates have predicted things that came to pass. No big deal.

If you agree that religion is not objective, then, it must be subjective with all the conclusions that subjectivity brings.

Sir Burr, let's not fall out about this. Read my post, I was refering to the previous post that you responded to!

Also, it was Israel that was the subject of the post and what the bible says 'objectively' about it. Clear and unambiguous references to a nation that ceased to exist for 1000s of years being restored. After it's desolation, the Jews persecution and it's restoration, all clearly predicted in the bible. That's what's objective!

Didn't the jews just read it and decide to make it happen?

Well if they did just decide to make it happen, I would be amazed! Check out the historic context. Everything was against them. No nation for 1000s of years yet they managed to kep their identity, Jews always remained Jews, even without a home land. Decimated in WWII, millions murdered for nothing other than being Jewish. Only a (relative) few returned to their homeland, and yet they managed to overcome in sucessive wars all the mighty forces round about them, against all the odds. My opinion is, based on what the bible says, that God's hand was at work in all their endevours.

it's not time for a history lesson, but check out how unlikely it was for the state of Israel to be restored in the early 20th century. The facts are incredible, and I would say, miraculous!

ps Wolf, you are a wise man!!

An honest to goodness cat and dog fight. And I was getting sleepy.

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Israel restored – God promised it.

Israel ceased to be a nation for nearly 2000 years. Their removal from Judea had been foretold many years before as Moses wrote.

And so after many historic events Israel was declared a state on the 14th May 1948 in fulfilment of God’s promises spoken 1000s of years before.

I don't recall Israel ceasing to be a nation around the time of Christ's birth, 2000 (?) years ago.

I do know that "Israel" was wiped out around 3,200 years ago though. In fact, that destruction is the only mention of Israel in all of the ancient Egyptian history. The Merenptah stela records a campaign that Pharoah led from Egypt to the Eurphrates river (in what is now Iraq).

He had listed all of the cities and peoples that he conquered/wiped out during that campaign. The one line regarding Israel reads:

Israel is wasted, bare of seed

This line appears in the middle of the list of tribes and city states he supposedly wiped out. It doesn't stand out on it's own, nor is it significant in any other way except for the mention of "Israel".

Many believe that this referred to a people (as in a tribe), not a country. Part of your OP confirms this:

Jeremiah 30.3

The days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD.

Remember too that in ancient times, "seed" referred to (human) reproduction.

"Bare of Seed" would have meant that all the males were killed (therefore, there was no more "seed" to make the women of the tribe pregnant).

Israel was still called Israel even when occupied by the Romans in Jesus time. AD 70 was when the temple was destroyed and the people scattered, AD 125 was when the Romans finally removed them from Judea. This is when Israel ceased to exist as a nation. Nearly 2000 years ago!

so for what reason were the israelites the chosen ones?

why not the chinese , the indians , the south americans or even the murries ?

and why was earth chosen? why not venus ?

so for what reason were the israelites the chosen ones?

why not the chinese , the indians , the south americans or even the murries ?

Because God is NOT politically correct!

I love those bible things, and I think we should respect those scriptures even if they are "false" or "misleading", they are still interesting.

However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events. This is just sad. I respect all kind of religions and I am not against the ideas of the "Creationists" as long as it's just a theory among others, but trying to "prove" the veracity of the bible by existing events or occurences is just "silly" to say it politely.

To put it simply, history repeats itself so what happened in the bible is bound to happen again and again in the future as human civilizations follow the same patterns, and ours is not exception.

I respect the bible scriptures and those who believe in them, but I think it's disgraceful to try to "prove" what happened in the bible. Even more so when done by over-zealous believers.

I love those bible things, and I think we should respect those scriptures even if they are "false" or "misleading", they are still interesting.

However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events. This is just sad. I respect all kind of religions and I am not against the ideas of the "Creationists" as long as it's just a theory among others, but trying to "prove" the veracity of the bible by existing events or occurences is just "silly" to say it politely.

To put it simply, history repeats itself so what happened in the bible is bound to happen again and again in the future as human civilizations follow the same patterns, and ours is not exception.

I respect the bible scriptures and those who believe in them, but I think it's disgraceful to try to "prove" what happened in the bible. Even more so when done by over-zealous believers.

The Devil is a liar.

...However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events. ...

Far better to be like silly little insects who believe everything they read on the back of Corn Flake packets and in the - so-called - "Independent".

However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events.

I agree that anyone who attempts a literal interpretation of the bible will convince themselves of little more than the reality of fairy tales. I also believe the attempt is an important exercise for those making the attempt because they have something to learn from doing the exercise.

Until they learn what they need to learn they will hold utter conviction of what they believe. All doors that lead to an understanding of any other perspective will be shut tight and the sole doors that are left open will be to allow entry for like ideas that are supportive of only the currently held beliefs.

Discussion is not very likely to occur in these cases. Attempts at discussion will ultimately end in, at best, a gentlemanly stalemate where respect is given each to the other for their right to hold a differing view or, at worst, an ugly toss up involving name calling, sarcastic remarks, mudslinging, etc., etc., ad naseam. I'll politely and simply allow these people do their thing and be on my way.

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I love those bible things, and I think we should respect those scriptures even if they are "false" or "misleading", they are still interesting.

However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events. This is just sad. I respect all kind of religions and I am not against the ideas of the "Creationists" as long as it's just a theory among others, but trying to "prove" the veracity of the bible by existing events or occurences is just "silly" to say it politely.

To put it simply, history repeats itself so what happened in the bible is bound to happen again and again in the future as human civilizations follow the same patterns, and ours is not exception.

I respect the bible scriptures and those who believe in them, but I think it's disgraceful to try to "prove" what happened in the bible. Even more so when done by over-zealous believers.

None of the above, whilst beng interesting, deals with the OP. Israel, once a great nation, in accordance with bible prophecy, was dispersed, dispised, persecuted, and finally against all the odds (again in accordance with bible prophecy) restored.

To say you feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events, when current events are proven by biblical prophecy is 'sad', to use your word. Oh and 'silly' is not polite. You can ignore the OP if you wish, that's your right. However, the restoration of Israel proves the veracity of at least this 'one' great event. Isreal exists again as a nation, of this there is no doubt. The bible predicted it, of this there is no doubt!

ps I am not an over-zealous believer, just a believer...

I love those bible things, and I think we should respect those scriptures even if they are "false" or "misleading", they are still interesting.

However, I feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events. This is just sad. I respect all kind of religions and I am not against the ideas of the "Creationists" as long as it's just a theory among others, but trying to "prove" the veracity of the bible by existing events or occurences is just "silly" to say it politely.

To put it simply, history repeats itself so what happened in the bible is bound to happen again and again in the future as human civilizations follow the same patterns, and ours is not exception.

I respect the bible scriptures and those who believe in them, but I think it's disgraceful to try to "prove" what happened in the bible. Even more so when done by over-zealous believers.

None of the above, whilst beng interesting, deals with the OP. Israel, once a great nation, in accordance with bible prophecy, was dispersed, dispised, persecuted, and finally against all the odds (again in accordance with bible prophecy) restored.

To say you feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events, when current events are proven by biblical prophecy is 'sad', to use your word. Oh and 'silly' is not polite. You can ignore the OP if you wish, that's your right. However, the restoration of Israel proves the veracity of at least this 'one' great event. Isreal exists again as a nation, of this there is no doubt. The bible predicted it, of this there is no doubt!

ps I am not an over-zealous believer, just a believer...

Here's a point which you might want to consider, suegha: you can take any number of 'facts,' arrange them in a multitude of combinations, and then draw your conclusion from the picture they present. Swap the 'facts' around, or better still, add and/or subtract other 'facts' and, viola, there's a new picture. Pictures all supported by 'facts.'

The reality of your picture, whatever it happens to be, becomes so convincing that 1) it becomes self-evident and 2) the self-evidency (is that a word?) in turn prohibits further questioning. Sadly, and please don't take this as a reference directed at you, fanaticism is the inability to question the conclusions drawn by your own mind. Rigor mortis of the brain, so to speak.

You are largely dealing with beliefs here, despite the fact that you deem certain beliefs as incontrovertible 'fact.' What you consider 'factual' is strictly belief to many. We can go round and round all day long if you like.

To say you feel sorry for the poor souls who take them "literally" or try to "interpret" messages in the bible on current events, when current events are proven by biblical prophecy is 'sad', to use your word. Oh and 'silly' is not polite. You can ignore the OP if you wish, that's your right. However, the restoration of Israel proves the veracity of at least this 'one' great event. Isreal exists again as a nation, of this there is no doubt. The bible predicted it, of this there is no doubt!

ps I am not an over-zealous believer, just a believer...

To answer your questions, the 2 Kingdom were destroyed twice and were twice re-united as you probabaly know from your bible studies. The bible could have just described a story that happened already, as a "story telling".

Religious Scholars are the first to "question" the veracity of the bible, but that doesn't take their faith away. They know perfectly you can't trust it and it's only a story, not reality, even though like any novels or stories, it would contain true events or partial truth, and these are the parts they try to research. If the bible is your main source of faith, then your faith is highly questionable. That's why bible "believers" are just show-off, not true believers, and are just trying to convince themselves of something they don't really believe in. If you need the bible to believe in god then you don't really believe in god. You are just a bible preacher, the worst kind of believers and the most dangerous (Bush et al). When I mean "you", I mean those type of believers, not you personally, as I don't know where you stand as I have ignored most of your "religious" posts until now.

My interpretation of events> Self-fulfilling prophecy based on the utter stubbornness and careful preservation of cultural values on part of the Jews.

Nothing to do with a heavenly mandate. God helps those who help themselves.

To answer your questions, the 2 Kingdom were destroyed twice and were twice re-united as you probabaly know from your bible studies.

Yes, I know (from the bible) that Israel was in bondage to the Babylonians and the Assyrians, and were both times restored, however, many references to the eventual restoration was in fact made after these.

My interpretation of events> Self-fulfilling prophecy based on the utter stubbornness and careful preservation of cultural values on part of the Jews.

Nothing to do with a heavenly mandate. God helps those who help themselves.

Good point. It is very interesting that the Jews, even though they didn't have a home land for 1000s of years maintained their individuality! Through struggle, and stubborness, and hard graft returned to establish their homeland, despite the odds being stacked against them.

If you need the bible to believe in god then you don't really believe in god. You are just a bible preacher, the worst kind of believers and the most dangerous (Bush et al). When I mean "you", I mean those type of believers, not you personally, as I don't know where you stand as I have ignored most of your "religious" posts until now.

Phew, I thought for a minute you were including me with Bush et al. That's a relief!

I did believe in a God before I found my mode of worship and belief. I have read and studied so many of the worlds faiths, and have respect for many. I did, however, find in the bible the answers to so many of my questions. As I stand now, a student of the word, I am further down the journey after 30 years of study, prayer, and meditation, than I was when I started.

This may seem like a lame post, but...

I don't really care what God said about this topic, but I feel the Jews should have and keep Israel. They are at the mercy of the world and no government has ever backed them as a people, so to have a land of their own is ideal. I believe this also to be the case for Kurds. I guess no one will help them out until millions of their people within a ten year period before they get shot at the own land as well.

This may seem like a lame post, but...

I don't really care what God said about this topic, but I feel the Jews should have and keep Israel. They are at the mercy of the world and no government has ever backed them as a people, so to have a land of their own is ideal. I believe this also to be the case for Kurds. I guess no one will help them out until millions of their people within a ten year period before they get shot at the own land as well.

Have you been drinking again while posting, TBB? Obviously, you'll never make it as a mod according to Thai Pauly's accepted standards of do's and don'ts.

This may seem like a lame post, but...

I don't really care what God said about this topic, but I feel the Jews should have and keep Israel. They are at the mercy of the world and no government has ever backed them as a people, so to have a land of their own is ideal. I believe this also to be the case for Kurds. I guess no one will help them out until millions of their people within a ten year period before they get shot at the own land as well.

Have you been drinking again while posting, TBB? Eh, no. Obviously, you'll never make it as a mod according to Thai Pauly's accepted standards of do's and don'ts.

I gotta fool them otherwise they might offer me a job.