Where Did You, Do You Rate Compared To Your Countries Average Wage?

[theblether]

I'm a wee bit reluctant to open this can of worms but financial issues are coming to the fore again.

The average wage in the UK is around £26,000pa, it's up to each member to have a look at the figure for their own country.

To me it's patently obvious that the continued industrialisation and development of Thailand would push up the cost of living. Chiang Mai is being crushed by the dual forces of farang ghetto-isation along with the surge in second home ownership by wealthy Bangkokians.

Other parts of Thailand are going the same way, the prices in Sukhumvit are at Western levels already, and as the Thai middle class grows the only way is up. To me, the days of below average earners retiring comfortably to Thailand are numbered, that's even before taking into account the vagaries of exchange rates.

The growth of the Thai middle class is the silent enemy of retirees, it is they who are pushing up prices throughout the country.

The purpose of the poll, which is private, is to draw ( further ) attention to this exponential growth in the cost the cost of living in this country. It doesn't matter if the exchange rate stabilizes to the level you would like, the cost of living in this country is going to grow way out of track with some people's expectations.

My prediction? BKK will be completely out of reach for average retirees within 20 years, it will be the equivalent of retiring to London. CM won't be far behind, and the Islands are already getting to that point.

So have a look at the poll, be honest with yourself, are you able to handle this growth in the cost of living?

[Swiss1960]

Not sure what you wanna do with the results... but given the fact that you only talk about wage and not assets, given the fact that age is nowhere in your calculation, given the fact that people with higher salaries tend to spend more and thus might not safe as much as they could... I don't see that the result will tell you anything of importance.

[theoldgit]

An interesting poll, have you voted yet Mr B?

Living only on the income from my pensions, one frozen one not, I clearly have to look at the impact of rising prices in Thailand against the rising prices in my mother country, the UK, and the effects the strengthening Baht has on my income, though I'm trying to restrain myself from looking at the rates hourly. I have no control over the strength of the Baht so have to live with the consequences. I do the occasional bit of consultancy work which helps, but not too much these days.

I actually live on the Sukhumvit corridor, it wasn't my first choice, but my partners current employment dictates we live in Bangkok, and living in Thonglor gives me a level of comfort.

Certainly my income has been reduced by about 20% since I moved here in 2007, it would have been more but I am protected by my index linked pension and the fact I now draw a State Pension.

Certainly costs have increased and it's something we have to manage. One of the reasons I retired here was the love of most things Thai, including the food. So I eat less and less Western food and don't drink out as often, this pleases my partner who prefers Thai food to western food, though she does like her fish and chips and bangers and mash.

We still live comfortably, and expect to do so for the foreseeable future, but we continue to consider all options.

I will admit to occasionally considering returning to the UK, to avoid the risks of the falling GBP, but I have to say I don't consider it for long. OK I will get the uplifts in my pension and the Winter fuel allowance, not forgetting the free bus pass and NHS, but with Council Tax to pay the high prices of energy and, non bus, travel I think I would be worse off. I think the cost of western food is cheaper than in Thailand, but I can still live here pretty comfortably on my income, though I think there will be further hits on the exchange rate.

I suspect that in the fullness of time we may reconsider moving away from Bangkok, but there are two of us to consider, not just me.

[theblether]

I didn't want to make the OP overly long.......the poll is more aimed at getting people to look at their income/expectation ratio.

If you live on an average wage in your home country, up till now that would have given you a good retirement in Thailand. The problem is though, that Thailand is disappearing. South Korea went from being agrarian to being a cutting edge country in about 30 years.

I have no doubt that it will be a long time before all Thailand ever gets to the level of South Korea, but a lot of the areas that Westerners currently gravitate towards are going to be priced out of the market for the average earner.

[gmac]

A little glitch with your poll Mr B, it wants me to vote in every section, doesn't seem to understand that having retired I don't have jobs both in my old country and Thailand as well!

[theblether]

@theoldgit I've not voted yet. I speak to people all the time that plan to retire to Thailand and I worry that they may entrap themselves. Right now the exchange rate is grabbing all the headlines but I feel in the longer term it's the growth in the middle class wealth of the country ( industrialization and development too ) that will present the biggest challenge to retiree's

You live in the Sukhumvit corridor, you must already be wincing at some of the prices you see.

[theblether]

A little glitch with your poll Mr B, it wants me to vote in every section, doesn't seem to understand that having retired I don't have jobs both in my old country and Thailand as well!

Sorry....I don't know if the mods can fix that?

[soi41]

'the growth of the Thai middle class is the silent enemy of retirees". Man you have a way with words!

IMO, the ones with the real problem with the rising prices, are the 80% of the Thai population not belonging the middle class. Not a few retirees, who are here by choice!

[lovelaos]

I tried to vote but it won't let me. It says I have to vote in each section of the poll.

[Jingthing]

That's how multiple question polls work here. You MUST vote in all sections or you can't vote at all. When designing multiple question polls like this, you need to add an option like NOT APPLICABLE for EACH section unless you are sure the questions will be applicable to all people voting.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Jingthing

[theoldgit]

A little glitch with your poll Mr B, it wants me to vote in every section, doesn't seem to understand that having retired I don't have jobs both in my old country and Thailand as well!

Sorry....I don't know if the mods can fix that?

I've added a N/A answer to each question, this will allow you to answer it question and register your vote.

[theblether]

That's how multiple question polls work here. You MUST vote in all sections or you can't vote at all. When designing multiple question polls like this, you need to add an option like NOT APPLICABLE for EACH section unless you are sure the questions will be applicable to all people voting.

Thanks JT, I wasn't aware of that......I see it's been fixed now so thanks to the mods for that.

[theblether]

'the growth of the Thai middle class is the silent enemy of retirees". Man you have a way with words!

IMO, the ones with the real problem with the rising prices, are the 80% of the Thai population not belonging the middle class. Not a few retirees, who are here by choice!

Thanks, I do try my best

Anyway the poll is aimed at Thaivisa members, so I thought I would do a poll that was relevant to us. Who would have thought eh?

[theoldgit]

@theoldgit , You live in the Sukhumvit corridor, you must already be wincing at some of the prices you see.

Yes I do, but we have the choice of eating in local trendy wine bars or pubs for 2 to 3,000 Baht, or walking to our local beer garden and enjoing a decent Thai meal washed down with a couple of jugs of beer for sub 1000 Baht, we can still eat some decent Pad Thai or other Thai foods for under 300 Baht locally, we find a combination of all works well for us.

[guzzi850m2]

Yes Bangkok might be out of reach in 20 years time unless you like under water world.

[pattayadingo]

I find it odd that some here seem to have a strange obsession with how much other people have or do not have, however they couch the terminology.

I can easily see this turning into another form of snobbery and bickering.

And the average wage in a country has nothing at all to do with what people really earn on a weekly basis.

[GuestHouse]

TB, you may not recall Thailand before the currency crash of the mid 90s. Thailand was not a viable retirement destination for most westerners - Overseas Retirement has almost never been an option for people on average incomes.

The currency crash created a brief window within which historically low (too low to continue) exchange rates made living in Thailand viable for people who at the usual exchange rates would not be able to afford to retire here.

The west, and UK in particular has also until recently 'benefitted' from property inflation - money from which has helped some move overseas.

The positive trends are now reversing, this together with the inflation you note is returning the equation back to where it was, were people on normal incomes cannot afford to retire overseas.

I noticed a significant exodus of Brits around two years back, TVF was at that time filling with people discussing the high cost of staying and the benefits of going home. I know several people who did very well buying up in the fire/departure sales that were common two years ago.

Some of course stay on, cut their cloth, and perhaps wing it without insurance or enough cash to deal with emergencies.

Each of these stories is of course a personal struggle and I feel for guys who get themselves into a position of not being able to go forward or go back.

But the fact is, 'secure' retirement overseas has never been an viable option unless you have significant funds to back your plans.

I disagree with you on one point, were you say in the next 20 years retirement in Thailand will not be an option for people on normal incomes - I believe that day is a lot lot closer.

That 'cheaper' family visas are available with an encouragement to take that path as the cash flows fall is to my view encouraging people to move from personal difficulty to family tragedy.

Edited April 23, 2013 by GuestHouse

[farang000999]

Honestly, how could one not afford to live in Isaan or somewhere like that where a dentist/doctor visit is less than London cabfare, assuming that you have some subsidy from a Western government?

Social security in the USA is at least a $1,000 a month I believe which is obviously enough money to survive in Isaan.

These cost of living topics are always silly because the cost of living varies greatly depending on how you wish to live. But when the Thai daily wage is 300b a day, it is ridiculous for many to claim that one cant possibly survive on 40k baht a month/insert random number.

[theblether]

You nailed it Guesthouse.

I do remember the first outflow of people to the Costas and the Canaries in the 80's, equally I can remember many of them scurrying back when recession hit in the early 90's.

There was a secondary, and quite frankly, massive bubble during the late 90's and the Noughties, for too many people it turned into a complete nightmare. Now that was a nightmare on their doorstep as Spain is only a hop, skip and jump away from home, and is a EU member, but when things turned sour, it didn't matter. They were still stranded in a foreign country, assets tied up in a crashing market, with nowhere to call home in the UK.

You've pointed out the market conditions that have created a bubble in Thailand, and I think we both agree, the market is going to correct soon, and permanently. People should really consider that.

[theblether]

Honestly, how could one not afford to live in Isaan or somewhere like that where a dentist/doctor visit is less than London cabfare, assuming that you have some subsidy from a Western government?

Social security in the USA is at least a $1,000 a month I believe which is obviously enough money to survive in Isaan.

These cost of living topics are always silly because the cost of living varies greatly depending on how you wish to live. But when the Thai daily wage is 300b a day, it is ridiculous for many to claim that one cant possibly survive on 40k baht a month/insert random number.

Your missing the point here......of course we could all retreat into deepest Isaan / Nan / insert backwoods area here.......that's not the point of the thread.

Entire zones which are currently populated by pensioners will soon be out of reach for the guys on an average income. People planning a happy retirement to Samui / Sukhumvit / even CM are going to find it tough to say the least.

It will be a result of the increasing prosperity of the Thai middle class, in fact Thailand on the whole, eroding the economic advantage currently experienced by many.

[Schillaci]

Average Aussie income is around $73,000 US. So basically, yes quite easily.

[theblether]

I find it odd that some here seem to have a strange obsession with how much other people have or do not have, however they couch the terminology.

I can easily see this turning into another form of snobbery and bickering.

And the average wage in a country has nothing at all to do with what people really earn on a weekly basis.

re the obsession, I made the same point on another thread this morning......the only reason why I started this thread ( and I did say reluctantly ) was that I feel people are fixating on the wrong issues re financial well being.

A lot of people I know would be delighted if the exchange rate returned to 50/£. If you offered that rate nailed to the mast for 20 years there would be a rush to grab it.

As a rule of thumb South Korea 1960 and Thailand 1960, same same.......agrarian economies. You wouldn't say that about South Korea now, and there's few that could afford to retire there. The same thing is going to happen to the prime real estate in Thailand, it doesn't matter if the rate is nailed at 50, inflation is going to blow you out.

[mancub]

Agreed , the Thailand of the present is more expensive for today's aspiring retiree than it was 20 years previously , but it was also more attractive then for many reasons .

Given the current trends in this country , I'm not so sure that such large numbers of folk will even consider it as a prime retirement option, and not only based on financial aspects .

[topt]

TB not trying to be pedantic but maybe you are missing some options? What about all the offshore workers/working abroad but not in home country or Thailand?

[Soutpeel]

Honestly, how could one not afford to live in Isaan or somewhere like that where a dentist/doctor visit is less than London cabfare, assuming that you have some subsidy from a Western government?

Social security in the USA is at least a $1,000 a month I believe which is obviously enough money to survive in Isaan.

These cost of living topics are always silly because the cost of living varies greatly depending on how you wish to live. But when the Thai daily wage is 300b a day, it is ridiculous for many to claim that one cant possibly survive on 40k baht a month/insert random number.

But the one aspect you have forgotten about, is what happens if the Thai goverment increases the financial requirements for a farang to live here legally ?.....while the amount of money someone spends in a day may be debateable to a certain degree....what would happen for example if they changed the current THB 800k or pro-rata monthly pension to the equivilent of THB 1.5 million p.a.

[Soutpeel]

TB not trying to be pedantic but maybe you are missing some options? What about all the offshore workers/working abroad but not in home country or Thailand?

What about them ?

[topt]

TB not trying to be pedantic but maybe you are missing some options? What about all the offshore workers/working abroad but not in home country or Thailand?

What about them ?

Where do you stick yourself in the poll?

[Soutpeel]

TB not trying to be pedantic but maybe you are missing some options? What about all the offshore workers/working abroad but not in home country or Thailand?

What about them ?

Where do you stick yourself in the poll?

You could answer question 2, even though you are not living in your own country, you should know whether what your earning is above or below average for your own country

[theblether]

TB not trying to be pedantic but maybe you are missing some options? What about all the offshore workers/working abroad but not in home country or Thailand?

What about them ?

Where do you stick yourself in the poll?

edit.....yup go with soutpeel, answer question two as it's almost certainly more relevant as you are earning outside of the country.

Edited April 23, 2013 by theblether

[chrisinth]

Honestly, how could one not afford to live in Isaan or somewhere like that where a dentist/doctor visit is less than London cabfare, assuming that you have some subsidy from a Western government?

Social security in the USA is at least a $1,000 a month I believe which is obviously enough money to survive in Isaan.

These cost of living topics are always silly because the cost of living varies greatly depending on how you wish to live. But when the Thai daily wage is 300b a day, it is ridiculous for many to claim that one cant possibly survive on 40k baht a month/insert random number.

But the one aspect you have forgotten about, is what happens if the Thai goverment increases the financial requirements for a farang to live here legally ?.....while the amount of money someone spends in a day may be debateable to a certain degree....what would happen for example if they changed the current THB 800k or pro-rata monthly pension to the equivilent of THB 1.5 million p.a.

If they didn't give the "grandfathering" option (those in the system stay in the system on their current pricing), then yep, that could ruin a lot of peoples days.

It would certainly slow the number of people considering the move.