Thai Democrats Led By Abhisit To Discuss Reforms

[pastitche]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

Edited May 14, 2013 by pastitche

[whybother]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

... the middle classes in Bangkok, and everyone south of Bangkok, and people in a couple of places north of Bangkok.

What the Democrats need is the chance to talk to people in the North East without the fear of being beaten up (both the people talking and the people listening).

Edited May 14, 2013 by whybother

[Thai at Heart]

Dem reform : "Just be patient. Eventually we'll be the lesser of two evils."

Yingluck returns home from a shopping trip abroad to find a tank parked up in the drive, and the locks have been changed.

More likely to come home to find her sister wedged in the doorway of her house.

Outstanding. Lololo

Sorry, I'm having a blond moment . . . why is this funny?

Well i am sure yingluck has a pretty wide front door. Edited May 14, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[pastitche]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

... the middle classes in Bangkok, and everyone south of Bangkok, and people in a couple of places north of Bangkok.

What the Democrats need is the chance to talk to people in the North East without the fear of being beaten up (both the people talking and the people listening).

Why be so negative and defeatist, surely you don't believe that a genuine reform prospectus would not be met with approval if the presenters of that prospectus had credibility? This is not the nineteenth century, there are many ways other than face-to-face by which to get a message across.

It is not only the NE that refuses to accept the Dems as a valid alternative to Thaksinism so there are converts to be made where the presumed intimidation does not take place. Thaksin is seen by many as a Thai hero who has been victimised by some mystical extra-political cabal which controls the country and which he struggled against. However his power and influence are waning and now is perhaps a good time to show that an alternative government with genuine interest in rectifying the shortcomings of Thailand's recent problems and its geographical split.

The question must be, I suppose, can the Dems do that or do we need a third party without the sins of the past?

[whybother]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

... the middle classes in Bangkok, and everyone south of Bangkok, and people in a couple of places north of Bangkok.

What the Democrats need is the chance to talk to people in the North East without the fear of being beaten up (both the people talking and the people listening).

Why be so negative and defeatist, surely you don't believe that a genuine reform prospectus would not be met with approval if the presenters of that prospectus had credibility? This is not the nineteenth century, there are many ways other than face-to-face by which to get a message across.

It is not only the NE that refuses to accept the Dems as a valid alternative to Thaksinism so there are converts to be made where the presumed intimidation does not take place. Thaksin is seen by many as a Thai hero who has been victimised by some mystical extra-political cabal which controls the country and which he struggled against. However his power and influence are waning and now is perhaps a good time to show that an alternative government with genuine interest in rectifying the shortcomings of Thailand's recent problems and its geographical split.

The question must be, I suppose, can the Dems do that or do we need a third party without the sins of the past?

A third of the country's voters voted for them. If they reform, will these voters still vote for them? Certain people don't vote for the Democrats because they ARE the Democrats. If they reform, they will STILL be the Democrats, and those same people will continue not to vote for them.

There are other ways for the Democrats to get their message out, but in the NE a lot of those ways are controlled. You can't just get your message out in print/radio, particularly when you can't get your message on the radio or in print for what a lot of the people listen to/read. You need to get in front of them. In other areas the Democrats can get their message out and get in front of the people and they do OK.

Thailand might need a new party with out the sins of the past, but that's not going to happen for a LONG time. What Thailand needs is a level playing field all over the country.

[pastitche]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

... the middle classes in Bangkok, and everyone south of Bangkok, and people in a couple of places north of Bangkok.

What the Democrats need is the chance to talk to people in the North East without the fear of being beaten up (both the people talking and the people listening).

Why be so negative and defeatist, surely you don't believe that a genuine reform prospectus would not be met with approval if the presenters of that prospectus had credibility? This is not the nineteenth century, there are many ways other than face-to-face by which to get a message across.

It is not only the NE that refuses to accept the Dems as a valid alternative to Thaksinism so there are converts to be made where the presumed intimidation does not take place. Thaksin is seen by many as a Thai hero who has been victimised by some mystical extra-political cabal which controls the country and which he struggled against. However his power and influence are waning and now is perhaps a good time to show that an alternative government with genuine interest in rectifying the shortcomings of Thailand's recent problems and its geographical split.

The question must be, I suppose, can the Dems do that or do we need a third party without the sins of the past?

A third of the country's voters voted for them. If they reform, will these voters still vote for them? Certain people don't vote for the Democrats because they ARE the Democrats. If they reform, they will STILL be the Democrats, and those same people will continue not to vote for them.

There are other ways for the Democrats to get their message out, but in the NE a lot of those ways are controlled. You can't just get your message out in print/radio, particularly when you can't get your message on the radio or in print for what a lot of the people listen to/read. You need to get in front of them. In other areas the Democrats can get their message out and get in front of the people and they do OK.

Thailand might need a new party with out the sins of the past, but that's not going to happen for a LONG time. What Thailand needs is a level playing field all over the country.

It seems that you believe the Democrats are condemned to live in the wilderness, unless there is extra-parliamentary intervention to install them in power - their core support may desert if they reform and those who don't vote for them will continue not to vote for them no matter what they do. That is defeatist; it is possible for a political party to rebrand itself (and steal the opposition's ideology) as Tony Blair and his team did in the UK. They succeeded in seducng significant areas of the Tory heartlands to vote for them in successive elections.

Of course the party that Blair led rid itself of many of the people who were seen as Loony Left and without that disadvantage he even won the support of the arch-capitalist, Rupert Murdoch - a media mogul who firmly believed that his newspapers had a great influence on voter intentions.

So perhaps the Dems need to get rid of the old guard and present to the people of Thailand a manifesto that guarantees a fair society without the inequalities and corruption that exist now.

OK I have always been an idealist.....

[jayboy]

OK so everyone has had their rants about why PTP can be justifiably seen as a poor government and a tool of the Antichrist in Dubai. However the thread is supposed to be about the Democrat Party improving its performance; any ideas on that front?

Personally I think that they have to make an effort to make themselves acceptable to a wider constituency than the middle classes in BKK and elsewhere; they need to capture those voters who have not previously considered them in touch with their lives.

A difficult task indeed in Thailand but the only way in which they will defeat the faux-proletarian PTP is to demonstrate that they represent the aspirations of all Thais

... the middle classes in Bangkok, and everyone south of Bangkok, and people in a couple of places north of Bangkok.

What the Democrats need is the chance to talk to people in the North East without the fear of being beaten up (both the people talking and the people listening).

There are very large numbers of educated middle class people who vote PTP in Bangkok and elsewhere,still a minority but a growing one.

[whybother]

It seems that you believe the Democrats are condemned to live in the wilderness, unless there is extra-parliamentary intervention to install them in power - their core support may desert if they reform and those who don't vote for them will continue not to vote for them no matter what they do. That is defeatist; it is possible for a political party to rebrand itself (and steal the opposition's ideology) as Tony Blair and his team did in the UK. They succeeded in seducng significant areas of the Tory heartlands to vote for them in successive elections.

Of course the party that Blair led rid itself of many of the people who were seen as Loony Left and without that disadvantage he even won the support of the arch-capitalist, Rupert Murdoch - a media mogul who firmly believed that his newspapers had a great influence on voter intentions.

So perhaps the Dems need to get rid of the old guard and present to the people of Thailand a manifesto that guarantees a fair society without the inequalities and corruption that exist now.

OK I have always been an idealist.....

"It seems that you believe the Democrats are condemned to live in the wilderness"

Are you suggesting that the Democrats will never get the chance to get their message out to the people in the NE? That's the main thing that will condemn them to the wilderness.

I can't see how the Democrats could win the next election, although I see that they will do better than the last election, but as they're able to get their message out to the people in a free manner, there will be more people that vote for them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they would get back into power in the following election, but it makes their opposition more accountable. You look at the two party systems in western countries, and there is generally very little difference between the two sides, and every couple of elections they swap power. That is where Thailand will get to.

It won't take too much of a voter change to get the Democrats into power. A 5-10% change of the vote puts a lot of pressure on smaller parties to back someone else. But it's not going to happen (through general elections) if their opposition is kicked out by a coup.

[whybother]

There are very large numbers of educated middle class people who vote PTP in Bangkok and elsewhere,still a minority but a growing one.

And there are a lot of people in other groups that vote for the Democrats.

This isn't a rich vs poor battle. If it was, Thaksin wouldn't be part of it.

[pastitche]

There are very large numbers of educated middle class people who vote PTP in Bangkok and elsewhere,still a minority but a growing one.

And there are a lot of people in other groups that vote for the Democrats.

This isn't a rich vs poor battle. If it was, Thaksin wouldn't be part of it.

I really don't think that we are too far apart (you and I and even Jayboy). At present Thailand is in effect a plutocracy, presently being run by the Shinawatras and that will have to change to ensure a stable society. I believe that there is only one way forward at this time and that is to let the increasingly sophisticated electorate express its wishes. They are not as stupid as TV members seem to believe and if a party, whether it be PTP or Dems can show that its intent is to make Thailand a more egalitarian society then all might be well. Otherwise there will be conflict.

If PTP is Thaksin's creation and he depends on it along with the Red Shirts that could easily be his downfall because of its grassroots membership; his weakness is that he might be able to manipulate their leadership but not those who have stronger ideologies than those who do his bidding for financial reward. There are younger people who have the same feelings about equality as the Civil Rights marchers in Alabama and Mississippi but without the racial aspect. In Thailand most are disadvantaged because of the position that society ascribes to them from birth.

[rubl]

It's interesting to read that 'very large numbers' equate a 'minority'. That's almost like 'the Thai' voted Pheu Thai', with 48% being a majority as in more than half of 100%.

[rubl]

"If PTP is Thaksin's creation"

K. Thaksin is the owner!

[pastitche]

It's interesting to read that 'very large numbers' equate a 'minority'. That's almost like 'the Thai' voted Pheu Thai', with 48% being a majority as in more than half of 100%.

Where did that come from, uncle?

[pastitche]

"If PTP is Thaksin's creation"

K. Thaksin is the owner!

Tut Tut your English is fading - Da Vinci created the Sistine Chapel - he is not the owner

[rubl]

"If PTP is Thaksin's creation"

K. Thaksin is the owner!

Tut Tut your English is fading - Da Vinci created the Sistine Chapel - he is not the owner

I admire your sense of humour, old chap. Mind you there is a distinct possibility you have been out of touch for a while, in which case it behoves me to bring you up to date.

Pheu Thai was created, founded, paid for by Thaksin. The motto is "Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai acts". Thaksin skypes in to order the Pheu Thai led government's cabinet around and tells them how to run his country.

As for DaVinci, he accepted a commission to paint the Sistine Chapel for a certain price and those who ordered and paid owned it.

[rubl]

It's interesting to read that 'very large numbers' equate a 'minority'. That's almost like 'the Thai' voted Pheu Thai', with 48% being a majority as in more than half of 100%.

Where did that come from, uncle?

Where did what come from?

Edited May 15, 2013 by rubl

[jayboy]

There are very large numbers of educated middle class people who vote PTP in Bangkok and elsewhere,still a minority but a growing one.

And there are a lot of people in other groups that vote for the Democrats.

This isn't a rich vs poor battle. If it was, Thaksin wouldn't be part of it.

Agreed there are many lower income people who vote Democrat as well as the urban middle class and the Southern heartland.The battle in Thailand is however not so much about the poor vs rich, much more about the traditional status quo being challenged.Thaksin exploited this shift in society cleverly, but in the role of an opportunistic politician.However hard one tries to explain there will always be those who insist that the difficulties are all about Thakin - he caused them and that if he was eliminated the problems would somehow go away and Thailand would revert to some mythological past of peace and prosperity where everyone knows their place.The reality of course is that Thaksin is not central to the shift in tectonic plates as Thais shake off traditional deferential structures.It's not even very unusual:something similar has happened in almost every society in history.

[whybother]

There are very large numbers of educated middle class people who vote PTP in Bangkok and elsewhere,still a minority but a growing one.

And there are a lot of people in other groups that vote for the Democrats.

This isn't a rich vs poor battle. If it was, Thaksin wouldn't be part of it.

Agreed there are many lower income people who vote Democrat as well as the urban middle class and the Southern heartland.The battle in Thailand is however not so much about the poor vs rich, much more about the traditional status quo being challenged.Thaksin exploited this shift in society cleverly, but in the role of an opportunistic politician.However hard one tries to explain there will always be those who insist that the difficulties are all about Thakin - he caused them and that if he was eliminated the problems would somehow go away and Thailand would revert to some mythological past of peace and prosperity where everyone knows their place.The reality of course is that Thaksin is not central to the shift in tectonic plates as Thais shake off traditional deferential structures.It's not even very unusual:something similar has happened in almost every society in history.

If PTP / UDD / Red shirts spent less time trying to white wash Thaksin's crimes, they would probably get what they (supposedly) want a lot quicker.

[Lite Beer]

Democrat Party to undergo major revamp.
By English News

BANGKOK, May 16 - The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest political party, is heading towards a major reform for more efficiency and readiness for a possible general election later this year, party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said today.

The former prime minister said an ad hoc committee has been assigned to propose a revised party structure to the Democrat's general assembly in 30 days.

He said party executives predicted a general election this year and Democrats must be well-prepared for future political manoeuvring.

"The party must be reformed towards a systematic and efficient management. The door should be open for a new generation of different professions, "he pointed out.

He stressed that the reform would be an internal issue among Democrats to avoid misunderstandings among the public which misinterpreted it as a conflict in the party.

Deputy party leader Alongkorn Polabutr earlier posted a statement concerning the party's restructuring on Twitter, sparking speculation of conflicts among Democrat members.

Mr Abhisit said Democrats will be more careful in addressing to the public on the party's internal issue. (MCOT online news).

-- TNA 2013-05-16

[scorecard]

Unless they change their name and get all brand new members, reform won't make much difference. They're still going to be the Democrat Party.

But, they got 1/3 of the vote in the last election, and a survey showed that most people preferred their policies, so IMO they don't need much reform. They just need some patience. They're not going to win the next election the way things are going, although I don't think PTP will get as many votes as 2011.

I don't often laugh out loud at posts on Thai Visa, but I did on this occasion.

Nice constructive comment from you jayboy, as usual!

[jayboy]

Unless they change their name and get all brand new members, reform won't make much difference. They're still going to be the Democrat Party.

But, they got 1/3 of the vote in the last election, and a survey showed that most people preferred their policies, so IMO they don't need much reform. They just need some patience. They're not going to win the next election the way things are going, although I don't think PTP will get as many votes as 2011.

I don't often laugh out loud at posts on Thai Visa, but I did on this occasion.

Nice constructive comment from you jayboy, as usual!

It wasn't meant to be constructive, simply a reaction to a comically off key post - in which it was suggested the Democrat Party wasn't in need of reform.Even Abhisit in today's other paper was very clear that major reforms were needed.It's just an example of how detached from reality some can become - and I thought very funny.

[whybother]

Unless they change their name and get all brand new members, reform won't make much difference. They're still going to be the Democrat Party.

But, they got 1/3 of the vote in the last election, and a survey showed that most people preferred their policies, so IMO they don't need much reform. They just need some patience. They're not going to win the next election the way things are going, although I don't think PTP will get as many votes as 2011.

I don't often laugh out loud at posts on Thai Visa, but I did on this occasion.

Nice constructive comment from you jayboy, as usual!

It wasn't meant to be constructive, simply a reaction to a comically off key post - in which it was suggested the Democrat Party wasn't in need of reform.Even Abhisit in today's other paper was very clear that major reforms were needed.It's just an example of how detached from reality some can become - and I thought very funny.

Where does he say "major reforms are needed"? He talks about management reform. And the reporter talks about major reform for more efficiency and readiness.

I said they weren't in need of MUCH reform. A third of the country votes for them. Many of the ones that don't, won't regardless of how much they reform.

[whybother]

Where does he say "major reforms are needed"? He talks about management reform. And the reporter talks about major reform for more efficiency and readiness.

I said they weren't in need of MUCH reform. A third of the country votes for them. Many of the ones that don't, won't regardless of how much they reform.

555 Not in need of much reform.Priceless.

What reform do you think will make a difference?

Edited May 16, 2013 by whybother

[jayboy]

Where does he say "major reforms are needed"? He talks about management reform. And the reporter talks about major reform for more efficiency and readiness.

I said they weren't in need of MUCH reform. A third of the country votes for them. Many of the ones that don't, won't regardless of how much they reform.

555 Not in need of much reform.Priceless.

What reform do you think will make a difference?

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

[whybother]

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

.

They might do better convincing Thai people if the red shirts actually let them have their rallies.

They might do better also if people didn't listen to red shirt propaganda.

Edited May 16, 2013 by whybother

[Thai at Heart]

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

.

They might do better convincing Thai people if the red shirts actually let them have their rallies.

They might do better also if people didn't listen to red shirt propaganda.

Very funny. You are genuinely saying they have no way at all to reach out to anyone? It's like the media doesn't exist at all in Thailand.

[Sing_Sling]

Where does he say "major reforms are needed"? He talks about management reform. And the reporter talks about major reform for more efficiency and readiness.

I said they weren't in need of MUCH reform. A third of the country votes for them. Many of the ones that don't, won't regardless of how much they reform.

555 Not in need of much reform.Priceless.

What reform do you think will make a difference?

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

I find your mock hilarity odious - but you raise two good and valid points

[thaicbr]

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

.

They might do better convincing Thai people if the red shirts actually let them have their rallies.

They might do better also if people didn't listen to red shirt propaganda.

Very funny. You are genuinely saying they have no way at all to reach out to anyone? It's like the media doesn't exist at all in Thailand.

To reach out to the designated target base you need feet on the ground. Many Thais do not read newspapers. They do not watch the news on TV (and if they do they have favorite channels)

So it's get out there and be heard. PPT know this that's why EVERY Democrat rally gets the Red mob treatment.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[Thai at Heart]

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

.

They might do better convincing Thai people if the red shirts actually let them have their rallies.

They might do better also if people didn't listen to red shirt propaganda.

Very funny. You are genuinely saying they have no way at all to reach out to anyone? It's like the media doesn't exist at all in Thailand.

To reach out to the designated target base you need feet on the ground. Many Thais do not read newspapers. They do not watch the news on TV (and if they do they have favorite channels)

So it's get out there and be heard. PPT know this that's why EVERY Democrat rally gets the Red mob treatment.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Oh please, pull the other one. Maybe it's because a lot of people don't believe their rhetoric after 70 years of supporting the richer side of society over the poor?

As though we are all living in some utopia where everyone is a bazillionaire. Note that most major agribusiness exporters have bankrolled the dems for a very very long time.

So you see I would have a hard time believing their policies knowing that for 70 years they have had the rice and sugar barons and the banks firmly behind them.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[jayboy]

1.Ditch failed and discredited leadership.

2.Rely more on convincing Thai people and less on unelected elites, military intervention and directed court decisions.

.

They might do better convincing Thai people if the red shirts actually let them have their rallies.

They might do better also if people didn't listen to red shirt propaganda.

Very funny. You are genuinely saying they have no way at all to reach out to anyone? It's like the media doesn't exist at all in Thailand.

To reach out to the designated target base you need feet on the ground. Many Thais do not read newspapers. They do not watch the news on TV (and if they do they have favorite channels)

So it's get out there and be heard. PPT know this that's why EVERY Democrat rally gets the Red mob treatment.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

The level of newspaper readership is in fact very high in Thailand.

Generally the press favours the Democrats and the old order.

TV channels , some owned by the army, generally take a line which doesn't favour the current government.

Even the constitution was rigged to favour the old elites favoured political party.

Your contention that every Democrat rally is disrupted by a Red mob is a lie.

Instead of grasping at feeble excuses the Democrats need to detoxify themselves.Their appalling performance is mainly the fault of its discredited leadership.They should have done better.With the baleful influence of Thaksin and a lacklustre record it's not as though there is any difficulty in finding weaknesses in the current government's record