Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A

[scorecard]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

Do you acknowledge that the Thai education system is a standard flow from nursery to University?

My daughter, at 17, is post GCSE. However, her current academic abilities are below that standard.

Her 'drift' into University is assured. In the first world, university education means a display of academic achievement. To go to university is special, something which is earned.

Also, why should I want to learn Thai? It's a 'one nation' language which will do me no good in my remaining years. I pick up odd useful bits which I need, but I seem to survive. If the worse comes to the worse I just phone my wife and pass the phone to the Thai. However, English is useful for Thais. You acknowledge and may support the Thai philosophy that there is Thailand and 'not Thailand'. In the 21st century that situation might be short-sighted.

Coming back to the subject in hand -

Do you want the names of authors and their 'learn English' publications, who despite proudly displaying 'MA English', haven't a clue. A degree with benefit? An achievement?

A nation who are convinced that a 'v' is pronounced 'w'. Taught that by Farang? Most unlikely. As its universal it must be part of the Thai English language curriculum.

Some gems:

A house, a apartment, a land(?)

I know that 'open' is used where the English equivalent is 'turn on', but there is no excuse for the author giving a demonstration of 'turn on' being an illustration of somebody opening a window!

How about the dentist with no English ability. Surely a medical professional needs to be fully aware of international medical developments. If so, and they rely on Thai translations, 'God help us'!

Defend Thai universities in general by all means, but as far as English ability is concerned, Thailand doesn't give a dam_n.

Quote from above:

"The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance."

Well I can speak on this point from multiple personal experiences, firstly within a major international oil company.

We tried many times to convince quality Thai staff (many different disciplines - they all spoke advanced English, no need for additional English skills) to take international assignments to enhance their long-term career prospects, etc.

Only one Thai took an assignment (to Singapore, then to Canada) but in his case he (full Thai) grew up in Thailand, Australia and in Kuwait (because his father was a clever oil and civil engineer and his father (who I met several times, spoke perfect English, delightful old man, a man of the world) was adventurous and he deliberately instilled the same desire to explore in all his kids.

Another angle - as one way to try to convince Thais to take international assignments we played up: the personal learning opportunities / experience opportunities with different plant configurations etc., / more exposure to international business (key today for engineers in many industries to get promotions), opportunity to save big money, all expenses paid, multiple trips home every year for wife and kids - business class, kids attending international school free, etc. It all fell on deaf ears.

Another example: working for an international management consulting company, many times international and very large Thai companies asked us to take projects to convince their selected Thai staff to take the off-shore opportunities.

Every time this came up I tasked our most senior Thai consulting staff (all of whom had studied for years abroad, and most had solid off shore work experience) to restudy the whole subject and try to find a better / newer approach / different factors to use to convince the clients staff to take the offshore posting.

My own consulting staff did good research / interviewed many folks (I approved their questionnaires / discussion topics in advance to ensure their research etc., was quite broad. ), but they never once found 'the key'. (One question in the face to face discussions (one by one and in small focus groups was very direct, "what benefit or item would instantly convince you to take an international assignment?" Answer, every time, "nothing, I just don't want to leave Thailand" or similar.

Bottom line, as a consulting company we never took up these projects . (Consulting companies, don't take projects which have a good chance of failure, so 'sorry, but we currently have so many projects, it will be 3 or 4 years before we could fit your project into our schedules, but good luck'.)

[jpinx]

There are many professional Thai's who promote English as an important part of the education system, but they are studiously ignored by the politicans. I have gained traction in some discussions with Thais on this topic by referring to the fact that Thailand is acknowledged in farangland largely because both the incumbent and previous leaders have reasonably good English skills. Also the trump card is to remind Thais that HM the KIng of Thailand is an excellent english speaker. That usually stops them from saying it is irrelevant, but not enough to make then actually DO somethng about it.

[wilcopops]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. A comment on moderation has also been removed.

[Noistar]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

As you say, the realisation of how different languages function is a major point.

Europeans especially are exposed to the idiosyncrasies of other European languages. So when a European comes to Thailand it's fairly easy to realise that all Thais are doing is translating Thai to English, without any grasp of language structure - yellow taxi, taxi yellow for example, plus the open the light.

Without exposure to other languages, Thais will be caught in this Thaiglish situation.

I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language they learn. Is this Chinese in a similar structure to Thai and is therefore more straight-forward for Thais to learn?

[Thai at Heart]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

As you say, the realisation of how different languages function is a major point.

Europeans especially are exposed to the idiosyncrasies of other European languages. So when a European comes to Thailand it's fairly easy to realise that all Thais are doing is translating Thai to English, without any grasp of language structure - yellow taxi, taxi yellow for example, plus the open the light.

Without exposure to other languages, Thais will be caught in this Thaiglish situation.

I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language they learn. Is this Chinese in a similar structure to Thai and is therefore more straight-forward for Thais to learn?

Having studied English language, German, French and Latin to various levels, the eureka moment of learning that Asian languages, on the whole do not have tenses, was wonderful.

Imagine. Today, I go. Tomorrow I go, Yesterday I go. After realising that, conversing in Thai, Korean and Mandarin was a doddle.

I know my Thai isn't anywhere near perfect, but after 17 years, I take the complements with a pinch of salt.

[Unkomoncents]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I sympathize with your point that there are crap universities in some of the countries with the best higher education offerings. Nevertheless, to try to assert that Thai universities produce the same quality of student, offer access to the same quality of professor, and produce the same quality of research is just plain wrong. Thailand has many, many years to go before the world will be able to take Thai degrees, en masse, seriously. Chulalongkorn has recently been trying to attract visiting professors, with some success, and the university should be lauded for its efforts. Certainly there are graduates of Thai universities who have excellent minds and can mix with the most prestigious academics (on a global level), but these Thais almost universally have been educated in international schools or foreign universities for at least part of their academic trajectory and they are VERY few and far between. Thais and others may find it insulting that foreigners assume their degrees to be worthless (especially when there are universities such as Kaplan U. in the USA). Unfortunately, indignance alone isn't grounds for re-evaluating the quality of Thailand's educational offerings. A Thai university degree will be regarded, on the international level, as worth about as much as a Thai driver's license. Until Thais learn the value of the rule of law and standards, their offerings (be they educational offerings or otherwise) will always be suspect. From years of working in Thailand (at places such as Chula), I can safely say that the prevalence of education scams in Thailand is frightening. For Thai universities that actually have standards (such as Chula, Thammasat, Monkol, etc.), it must be very frustrating to be operating in a marketplace in which competitors without any credentials or accreditation can operate openly and without oversight and accreditation procedures like those seen in Australia, the US, Japan or the UK (Rajabhat U. comes to mind). Who accredits the Thai universities? The MOE? I'm sorry but the MOE is fairly openly corrupt and susceptible to influence peddling and the whims of underqualified politicians. The MOE is also about forty years behind the times when it comes to K-12 education. Thailand's educational system is widely regarded as a failure, and many an expat and wealthy Thai have sent their kids abroad to avoid the intellectual bullet in the brain that Thailand's educational bureaucracy has become.

Also, I don't think learning Thai has any bearing on the experience of higher education in Thailand. Learning Thai appeals to the few people who see Thailand as a good, safe, stable place to live out their lives. For the rest of us, to learn such an obscure, difficult language with such limited international value would be foolish. It would be far smarter to learn Mandarin or Spanish.

[Noistar]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

As you say, the realisation of how different languages function is a major point.

Europeans especially are exposed to the idiosyncrasies of other European languages. So when a European comes to Thailand it's fairly easy to realise that all Thais are doing is translating Thai to English, without any grasp of language structure - yellow taxi, taxi yellow for example, plus the open the light.

Without exposure to other languages, Thais will be caught in this Thaiglish situation.

I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language they learn. Is this Chinese in a similar structure to Thai and is therefore more straight-forward for Thais to learn?

Having studied English language, German, French and Latin to various levels, the eureka moment of learning that Asian languages, on the whole do not have tenses, was wonderful.

Imagine. Today, I go. Tomorrow I go, Yesterday I go. After realising that, conversing in Thai, Korean and Mandarin was a doddle.

I know my Thai isn't anywhere near perfect, but after 17 years, I take the complements with a pinch of salt.

The bonus for us, is of course a pain in the neck for Thais!

Think of the I, me, my - I, I, I

[wilcopops]

Before I pulled my daughter out of school, I followed what was being taught in her English class here are two examples:

1.What is a preposition and how is it used?

2. Identify affirmative and negative forms.

She is in the 7th grade and has 52 kids in her class, she speaks English along with one other student. 50 kids can not speak English.

This would be like learning the workings of a internal combustion engine, when the goal is to learn how to drive.

I am just happy I have the time and credentials to teach her at home.

Rather than being unsuitable for a language learner, I'd suggest that it clearly displays the poster's lack of understanding on the various methods of learning a foreign language.

[Jasun]

I can't believe how hateful Thai people want to be! Staying with their own language, so a bunch of westerners don't have to pick up a book, or learn the nuances of a different language!

The study in the OP was not conducted by westerners, but by an asian-based company.

[wilcopops]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

As you say, the realisation of how different languages function is a major point.

Europeans especially are exposed to the idiosyncrasies of other European languages. So when a European comes to Thailand it's fairly easy to realise that all Thais are doing is translating Thai to English, without any grasp of language structure - yellow taxi, taxi yellow for example, plus the open the light.

Without exposure to other languages, Thais will be caught in this Thaiglish situation.

I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language they learn. Is this Chinese in a similar structure to Thai and is therefore more straight-forward for Thais to learn?

Having studied English language, German, French and Latin to various levels, the eureka moment of learning that Asian languages, on the whole do not have tenses, was wonderful.

Imagine. Today, I go. Tomorrow I go, Yesterday I go. After realising that, conversing in Thai, Korean and Mandarin was a doddle.

I know my Thai isn't anywhere near perfect, but after 17 years, I take the complements with a pinch of salt.

The bonus for us, is of course a pain in the neck for Thais!

Think of the I, me, my - I, I, I

you missed out "mine".......... but then we don't differentiate gender or formality.

[Noistar]

I can't believe how hateful Thai people want to be! Staying with their own language, so a bunch of westerners don't have to pick up a book, or learn the nuances of a different language!

I think you'll find that the Thai language differs by more than 'nuances'. You can't learn Thai from a book, you need interaction with a Thai if you want to succeed. So many words appear the same but have totally different meanings unless pronounced correctly. That, combined with the Thai habit of "shutters down, lights out" if they don't understand at first, means you're on a hiding to nothing.

[Thai at Heart]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I sympathize with your point that there are crap universities in some of the countries with the best higher education offerings. Nevertheless, to try to assert that Thai universities produce the same quality of student, offer access to the same quality of professor, and produce the same quality of research is just plain wrong. Thailand has many, many years to go before the world will be able to take Thai degrees, en masse, seriously. Chulalongkorn has recently been trying to attract visiting professors, with some success, and the university should be lauded for its efforts. Certainly there are graduates of Thai universities who have excellent minds and can mix with the most prestigious academics (on a global level), but these Thais almost universally have been educated in international schools or foreign universities for at least part of their academic trajectory and they are VERY few and far between. Thais and others may find it insulting that foreigners assume their degrees to be worthless (especially when there are universities such as Kaplan U. in the USA). Unfortunately, indignance alone isn't grounds for re-evaluating the quality of Thailand's educational offerings. A Thai university degree will be regarded, on the international level, as worth about as much as a Thai driver's license. Until Thais learn the value of the rule of law and standards, their offerings (be they educational offerings or otherwise) will always be suspect. From years of working in Thailand (at places such as Chula), I can safely say that the prevalence of education scams in Thailand is frightening. For Thai universities that actually have standards (such as Chula, Thammasat, Monkol, etc.), it must be very frustrating to be operating in a marketplace in which competitors without any credentials or accreditation can operate openly and without oversight and accreditation procedures like those seen in Australia, the US, Japan or the UK (Rajabhat U. comes to mind). Who accredits the Thai universities? The MOE? I'm sorry but the MOE is fairly openly corrupt and susceptible to influence peddling and the whims of underqualified politicians. The MOE is also about forty years behind the times when it comes to K-12 education. Thailand's educational system is widely regarded as a failure, and many an expat and wealthy Thai have sent their kids abroad to avoid the intellectual bullet in the brain that Thailand's educational bureaucracy has become.

Also, I don't think learning Thai has any bearing on the experience of higher education in Thailand. Learning Thai appeals to the few people who see Thailand as a good, safe, stable place to live out their lives. For the rest of us, to learn such an obscure, difficult language with such limited international value would be foolish. It would be far smarter to learn Mandarin or Spanish.

I might be wrong, but talking to my niece last night, I was trying to explain the ethnic separation of the UK.

I said nobody ever really conquered Wales or Scotland. Hence why the history etc. Etc

Oooooh.... Just like Thailand. And that is straight from a girl brought up in Khon Kaen.

As though the modern Laos history of isaaan never happened.

[wilcopops]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I sympathize with your point that there are crap universities in some of the countries with the best higher education offerings. Nevertheless, to try to assert that Thai universities produce the same quality of student, offer access to the same quality of professor, and produce the same quality of research is just plain wrong. Thailand has many, many years to go before the world will be able to take Thai degrees, en masse, seriously. Chulalongkorn has recently been trying to attract visiting professors, with some success, and the university should be lauded for its efforts. Certainly there are graduates of Thai universities who have excellent minds and can mix with the most prestigious academics (on a global level), but these Thais almost universally have been educated in international schools or foreign universities for at least part of their academic trajectory and they are VERY few and far between. Thais and others may find it insulting that foreigners assume their degrees to be worthless (especially when there are universities such as Kaplan U. in the USA). Unfortunately, indignance alone isn't grounds for re-evaluating the quality of Thailand's educational offerings. A Thai university degree will be regarded, on the international level, as worth about as much as a Thai driver's license. Until Thais learn the value of the rule of law and standards, their offerings (be they educational offerings or otherwise) will always be suspect. From years of working in Thailand (at places such as Chula), I can safely say that the prevalence of education scams in Thailand is frightening. For Thai universities that actually have standards (such as Chula, Thammasat, Monkol, etc.), it must be very frustrating to be operating in a marketplace in which competitors without any credentials or accreditation can operate openly and without oversight and accreditation procedures like those seen in Australia, the US, Japan or the UK (Rajabhat U. comes to mind). Who accredits the Thai universities? The MOE? I'm sorry but the MOE is fairly openly corrupt and susceptible to influence peddling and the whims of underqualified politicians. The MOE is also about forty years behind the times when it comes to K-12 education. Thailand's educational system is widely regarded as a failure, and many an expat and wealthy Thai have sent their kids abroad to avoid the intellectual bullet in the brain that Thailand's educational bureaucracy has become.

Also, I don't think learning Thai has any bearing on the experience of higher education in Thailand. Learning Thai appeals to the few people who see Thailand as a good, safe, stable place to live out their lives. For the rest of us, to learn such an obscure, difficult language with such limited international value would be foolish. It would be far smarter to learn Mandarin or Spanish.

I might be wrong, but talking to my niece last night, I was trying to explain the ethnic separation of the UK.

I said nobody ever really conquered Wales or Scotland. Hence why the history etc. Etc

Oooooh.... Just like Thailand. And that is straight from a girl brought up in Khon Kaen.

As though the modern Laos history of isaaan never happened.

I think you need a history lesson! I pity anyone who is on the receiving end of one of your "explanations"!

[sustento]

Exposure to the language we all accept however in the brand new Major Cine complex at Central Plaza in Ubon all films are Thai nothing subtitled in English. All films are either Thai or western movies dubbed. If that is the attitude how in God's name are things going to change who cares about A.E.C is just so apparent that one has to be resigned to the fact Thais are truly resistant to change

Why should movies shown in Thailand be in any other language than Thai? They're entertainment for a Thai audience not some sort of subliminal educational process.

[Thai at Heart]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I sympathize with your point that there are crap universities in some of the countries with the best higher education offerings. Nevertheless, to try to assert that Thai universities produce the same quality of student, offer access to the same quality of professor, and produce the same quality of research is just plain wrong. Thailand has many, many years to go before the world will be able to take Thai degrees, en masse, seriously. Chulalongkorn has recently been trying to attract visiting professors, with some success, and the university should be lauded for its efforts. Certainly there are graduates of Thai universities who have excellent minds and can mix with the most prestigious academics (on a global level), but these Thais almost universally have been educated in international schools or foreign universities for at least part of their academic trajectory and they are VERY few and far between. Thais and others may find it insulting that foreigners assume their degrees to be worthless (especially when there are universities such as Kaplan U. in the USA). Unfortunately, indignance alone isn't grounds for re-evaluating the quality of Thailand's educational offerings. A Thai university degree will be regarded, on the international level, as worth about as much as a Thai driver's license. Until Thais learn the value of the rule of law and standards, their offerings (be they educational offerings or otherwise) will always be suspect. From years of working in Thailand (at places such as Chula), I can safely say that the prevalence of education scams in Thailand is frightening. For Thai universities that actually have standards (such as Chula, Thammasat, Monkol, etc.), it must be very frustrating to be operating in a marketplace in which competitors without any credentials or accreditation can operate openly and without oversight and accreditation procedures like those seen in Australia, the US, Japan or the UK (Rajabhat U. comes to mind). Who accredits the Thai universities? The MOE? I'm sorry but the MOE is fairly openly corrupt and susceptible to influence peddling and the whims of underqualified politicians. The MOE is also about forty years behind the times when it comes to K-12 education. Thailand's educational system is widely regarded as a failure, and many an expat and wealthy Thai have sent their kids abroad to avoid the intellectual bullet in the brain that Thailand's educational bureaucracy has become.

Also, I don't think learning Thai has any bearing on the experience of higher education in Thailand. Learning Thai appeals to the few people who see Thailand as a good, safe, stable place to live out their lives. For the rest of us, to learn such an obscure, difficult language with such limited international value would be foolish. It would be far smarter to learn Mandarin or Spanish.

I might be wrong, but talking to my niece last night, I was trying to explain the ethnic separation of the UK.

I said nobody ever really conquered Wales or Scotland. Hence why the history etc. Etc

Oooooh.... Just like Thailand. And that is straight from a girl brought up in Khon Kaen.

As though the modern Laos history of isaaan never happened.

I think you need a history lesson! I pity anyone who is on the receiving end of one of your "explanations"!

I am not getting into a flag waving session. It came out of her mouth like that.

I await your explanation about how the various colonizing barbarians, Romans and others found it to get into Scotland and Wales, versus various sackings of various Thai capitals over the centuries

[wilcopops]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I sympathize with your point that there are crap universities in some of the countries with the best higher education offerings. Nevertheless, to try to assert that Thai universities produce the same quality of student, offer access to the same quality of professor, and produce the same quality of research is just plain wrong. Thailand has many, many years to go before the world will be able to take Thai degrees, en masse, seriously. Chulalongkorn has recently been trying to attract visiting professors, with some success, and the university should be lauded for its efforts. Certainly there are graduates of Thai universities who have excellent minds and can mix with the most prestigious academics (on a global level), but these Thais almost universally have been educated in international schools or foreign universities for at least part of their academic trajectory and they are VERY few and far between. Thais and others may find it insulting that foreigners assume their degrees to be worthless (especially when there are universities such as Kaplan U. in the USA). Unfortunately, indignance alone isn't grounds for re-evaluating the quality of Thailand's educational offerings. A Thai university degree will be regarded, on the international level, as worth about as much as a Thai driver's license. Until Thais learn the value of the rule of law and standards, their offerings (be they educational offerings or otherwise) will always be suspect. From years of working in Thailand (at places such as Chula), I can safely say that the prevalence of education scams in Thailand is frightening. For Thai universities that actually have standards (such as Chula, Thammasat, Monkol, etc.), it must be very frustrating to be operating in a marketplace in which competitors without any credentials or accreditation can operate openly and without oversight and accreditation procedures like those seen in Australia, the US, Japan or the UK (Rajabhat U. comes to mind). Who accredits the Thai universities? The MOE? I'm sorry but the MOE is fairly openly corrupt and susceptible to influence peddling and the whims of underqualified politicians. The MOE is also about forty years behind the times when it comes to K-12 education. Thailand's educational system is widely regarded as a failure, and many an expat and wealthy Thai have sent their kids abroad to avoid the intellectual bullet in the brain that Thailand's educational bureaucracy has become.

Also, I don't think learning Thai has any bearing on the experience of higher education in Thailand. Learning Thai appeals to the few people who see Thailand as a good, safe, stable place to live out their lives. For the rest of us, to learn such an obscure, difficult language with such limited international value would be foolish. It would be far smarter to learn Mandarin or Spanish.

I might be wrong, but talking to my niece last night, I was trying to explain the ethnic separation of the UK.

I said nobody ever really conquered Wales or Scotland. Hence why the history etc. Etc

Oooooh.... Just like Thailand. And that is straight from a girl brought up in Khon Kaen.

As though the modern Laos history of isaaan never happened.

I think you need a history lesson! I pity anyone who is on the receiving end of one of your "explanations"!

I am not getting into a flag waving session. It came out of her mouth like that.

I await your explanation about how the various colonizing barbarians, Romans and others found it to get into Scotland and Wales, versus various sackings of various Thai capitals over the centuries

I'd say that your post is pretty incoherent - so maybe you'd like to rephrase it?

(The Romans' colonisation of Britain had virtually no impact on the English Language)

...and your perception of the "ethnic separation" of the UK is nonsense....if that is in fact what you are talking about, but the more I read your posts the less intelligible them become.

[thaicbr]

@wilcopops....the less intelligible them become.

Them become... really?

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[lovelaos]

5 countries make up all of SE Asia? Change the topic to reflect the true nature of the story is probably best.

What? Make Thailand feel better that they beat Laos?

Rounds of applause!!!!!!

After living in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos over the last 15 years I see Thailand as being well below both Cambodia and Laos.

Foreigners are much more respected and Cambodians and Laotians seem to be much more open to learning English and French.

Laotians in particular are very open to ideas from foreigners.

[jpinx]

To round off this thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/648852-education-min-phongthep-admits-thai-education-system-unsatisfactory/

[rubl]

"Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A"

In an interesting development we have the Japanese Finance Minister Taro Aso saying
"Japans banks emerged from the 2008 global credit crisis largely unscathed because their senior employees did not speak English well enough to get into trouble"
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/06/29/business/poor-english-skills-saved-japans-bankers-from-subprime-loan-fiasco-aso

[Unkomoncents]

"Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A"

In an interesting development we have the Japanese Finance Minister Taro Aso saying

"Japans banks emerged from the 2008 global credit crisis largely unscathed because their senior employees did not speak English well enough to get into trouble"

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/06/29/business/poor-english-skills-saved-japans-bankers-from-subprime-loan-fiasco-aso

Yeah, but the Japanese could make the Germans look undisciplined!

[Tomtomtom69]

5 countries make up all of SE Asia? Change the topic to reflect the true nature of the story is probably best.

What? Make Thailand feel better that they beat Laos?

Rounds of applause!!!!!!

After living in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos over the last 15 years I see Thailand as being well below both Cambodia and Laos.

Foreigners are much more respected and Cambodians and Laotians seem to be much more open to learning English and French.

Laotians in particular are very open to ideas from foreigners.

Soon Thailand will be embarrassed by the Laotians once the Kunming-Vientiane high-speed railway is in operation in only a few years time. Only problem is by then China will have to build the connecting line down to Sihanoukville in Cambodia rather than Bangkok due to the political instability in Thailand where no proper plan or timetable to build the Vientiane-Bangkok extension has been agreed upon.

Laotians also don't have much choice but be open to foreign ideas lest they want to starve due to immense poverty - many companies in Laos openly employ only foreigners (mainly Vietnamese or Chinese) rather than locals because locals are not considered hard working enough - also the availability of labor in Laos is too low.

[Tomtomtom69]

Degrees - If you are a native speaker with a degree, it is more likely you are the kind of person who is trained to learn and has a reasonable level of academic ability. Both are useful when teaching. It does NOT guarantee a good teacher.

I also suspect that most posters here are unaware of the theory behind TEFL and its purpose. Actually I reckon that most native English speakers have absolutely NO idea of how their own language functions. It is one of the benefits of being bi or multi-lingual that one is able to see how different languages function.

Lots of posters have vague ideas of "standards" of English "proper" English or "correct" English - most of this belies a profound ignorance of how language works, how teaching it works and how English works

It has to be said that most teacher training in EFL is attained "on the job", but a good one month TEFL is EXTREMELY INTENSIVE - it is generally considered that the best time to do this is directly after you haver doe your degree as if you leave it later your study and info retention skills are diminishing.

As you say, the realisation of how different languages function is a major point.

Europeans especially are exposed to the idiosyncrasies of other European languages. So when a European comes to Thailand it's fairly easy to realise that all Thais are doing is translating Thai to English, without any grasp of language structure - yellow taxi, taxi yellow for example, plus the open the light.

Without exposure to other languages, Thais will be caught in this Thaiglish situation.

I know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language they learn. Is this Chinese in a similar structure to Thai and is therefore more straight-forward for Thais to learn?

No. Chinese is just as hard if not harder for Thais to learn than English. Even the grammatical structure is in some respects more similar to English than Thai. For example, while we say "a red house" the Chinese also say "red house" but the Thais say "house red".

[Tomtomtom69]

Until Thai schools engage native English teachers to teach English, the standard will always be the poorest in Asia.

Until the English language is spoken widely every day across Thai society (as it is in Hong Kong, India, The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore etc) the standard will always be the poorest in Asia! (but much better that Laos Cambodia, Burma and Vietnam - -hooray hooray! There's hope for Thailand yet!)

R

Having lived in both countries, I can unequivocally state that English is much more widely spoken in Cambodia than in Thailand, particularly in the urban centres, and the standard is generally much higher, too. Although they are very far from being bastions of academic excellence (just like in Thailand), many Cambodian universities use English as the medium of instruction, even at the undergraduate level. Cambodians have realized that few non-Cambodians speak Khmer, and English is therefore essential if they wish to communicate with foreigners and the outside world.

Having visited Cambodia for both business and pleasure many times, I concur.

I think the problem with English proficiency in Thailand is how English is viewed here, i.e. the status it has. Thailand never having been colonized and with English merely being relegated to a language that locals use for communication with foreigners (don't be fooled by the CIA world factbook's claim that English is a secondary language of the elite - it's not. Very, very few locals that haven't lived abroad would use English with their children even if they speak it well and are well educated) plus only a handful of universities offering English language instruction (such as ABAC) and those universities not even necessarily being the most prestigious doesn't help matters.

While I am completely fluent in both written and spoken Thai to the point that I am annoyed when I am sometimes initially spoken to in English, I quickly make it clear I speak Thai by responding in Thai and flat out don't speak English with anyone here because the level of English I would be faced with gives me headaches as I can't understand it. When I hear Thais speaking to other foreigners I am instantly confused and so are the foreigners. I often step in to help translate if necessary. Not only that but it seems to me that Thais use language as a weapon of sorts - if you can speak Thai you get discounts and much better treatment (and a real smile) than if you just speak English. This attitude is not prevelent in other regional countries where you get good treatment no matter what language you speak. In Myanmar, educated locals have fun watching English language TV, reading English newspapers and speaking English amongst themselves and thus don't share this attitude. In Vietnam, locals don't share the same English language abilties as their Khmer or Burmese counterparts, but the more educated locals are every bit as enthusiastic about using English given the chance.

It must be no wonder then that English corners are very popular in Vietnam and China but don't exist in Thailand.

[Tomtomtom69]

Having taught in all kinds of situations (language institutes, regular schools, companies, and university) in Thailand over the last 14 years, and from what I observe goes on here, there are so many obstacles to a Thai learning to become a competent speaker/user of English, many of them already mentioned on this thread. But perhaps a list of them in no particular order all will once again help me and anyone interested put it in perspective:

1. Culture doesn't support the idea that learning requires work and working at anything or being eager or making an effort is considered by many to be ungraceful and unbecoming

2. No need for most Thais to learn English, nor do they want to otherwise

3. Lack of interest in anything not Thai or international or regional, so no motivation

4. Cultural tendency to not tolerate mistakes in self or others nor take risks necessary to try using new language, saving face always comes first by a wide margin

5. Ruling classes invested in the wholesale failure of the majority of Thais, English is just another thing they aren't allowed to have lest they begin to be a competitive threat

6. Succeeding at English makes one different and by that subject to having problems socially

7. Education system probably designed to demotivate, subordinate, and disempower

8. Education system doesn't value good teachers ie; doesn't pay them enough, doesn't hire them, doesn't like them when they are hired, seen as a threat to the authority of headmasters etc. who have little to no English ability or teaching skills

9. Xenophobia is high and probably not getting better

10. Thailand's history of having no contact with western ways or languages

11. Government education authorities perennially have no will to begin to address problems pragmatically. For example it's better to declare that it is the Year of Learning English and be done with it.

12. Rigid narrow inflexible attitudes when it comes to education "philosophy," do it the traditional way or the highway

13. Immigration requirements for foreign teachers get worse, more complicated, and simply impossible to comply with with each passing year

14. Most Thais simply don't want to learn English which probably ought to be respected as their choice

15. Thai culture isn't oriented towards the verbal/valuing communication end of the spectrum, in fact it is often better that there is a misunderstanding or communication gap so that face can be saved,

16. Test scores are the only thing that matter to educators and education systems

17. Less English in the world around Thais, ie; more movies overdubbed in Thai, products and signs increasingly are Thai only

I'm sure there are reams of other difficulties Thais face, but of course many people here learn English quite well. I'd agree that the bottom line is that you have to have some motivation hence many bargirls or tourist industry people become quite competent at English. I doubt Thailand is going to stand for having other people from other ASEAN nations take their jobs away from them as seems to be what is promised by the 2015 ASEAN union where workers of ASEAN nations will be able to work in Thailand with minimal to no immigration restrictions. It seems those foreign workers would then become top choice for international firms and hotel industry. I would guess that Thailand will negoatiate some kind of special dispensation from the ASEAN Union whereby they don't have to allow such workers to come in and work here and they will probably find some way to put off English proficiency for Thailand off permanently. I can't see Thailand responding by actually educating the populace in English nor do I see them allowing masses of Phillipinos to begin working all the hotel desks and taking all the jobs working at international firms based here. Just my two cents.

You'd have to see which jobs will actually allow freedom of movement under the AEC 2015/2016 rules. Only certain professionals will be in this category of allowed professions. In any case, I would actually like to see a bit more diversity in Thailand and if AEC can provide it that would be great. There is nothing less authentic than going to say a Vietnamese, Mexican or steak restaurant that claims to be authentic but doesn't have a single foreigner from the country of that cuisine serving you or in the kitchen making your food. In Laos for example, Vietnamese restaurants already have only Vietnamese staff and thus make authentic food, often without even a Lao menu. Ditto for Chinese restaurants, which might have a token Lao employee to take the orders of non-Chinese speaking customers. I went to a French restaurant in Vientiane recently and the owner, a Frenchman was right there talking to the foreigners there in French. His English-speaking Lao staff took most of the orders but he would take some himself. In Vang Vieng, a Singaporean owner/manager running a bakery/restaurant takes orders alongside his Lao staff - I have the feeling he doesn't speak more than a few words of Lao, but excellent English of course.

Vietnam and Cambodia and even China are similar - you'll find foreigners working in these sort of professions/running businesses etc. In Vietnam I met a Japanese customer service agent at the Sheraton in Saigon, she was directing guests to the restaurant upstairs - I have been to many top Thai hotels (including international chains) and can't recall even one foreigner working in any position that required extensive contact with guests; I have only ever seen Thais in such positions. All the foreigners working as F&B managers, hotel managers etc. are usually behind the scenes working in an office or another area where they can't be seen.

[PaullyW]

I work in what many would consider a very high end finance firm. There are many Thais who went to school abroad (some from high school) and some for college or post grad etc. What is astonishing to me is that most of them (with the exception of those who start in in English speaking countries in college) cannot really even hold a conversation in English beyond things like learned/memorised responses.

Well, astonishing might not be reasonable.

I think a serious issue among even the elite is that there is a very palpable separation of Thais at this end of Thai society from intimate relationships (friendships, etc.) with Westerners. From what I understand non-Thai Easterners (like Japanese) have similar trouble getting close to Thais at the upper end. Most of the Western expats I'm close to in my firm, those on my staff and Westerners I've met out and about have expressed the same trouble.

All that to say that even educated Thais get very little practice speaking English with non-Thais and thus their English becomes more of a status symbol really.

Anyone on here really close (as in a very close, serious friendship) with well educated Thais from the upper end of society? Does your experience match with this?

[Soutpeel]

Anyone on here really close (as in a very close, serious friendship) with well educated Thais from the upper end of society? Does your experience match with this?

In general terms I agree with you, but I do have 2 close Thai friends, one has a masters in Mechanical engineering and the other a dental surgeon, neither studied outside of Thaiand yet both speak excellent English, granted they wouldnt be confused as a native English speakers, but excellent none the less, both written and spoken...

although both say when I am in conversation with another Farang, specifically Aussie's and people from the UK, sometimes they havent got a clue what I am taking about and I think its because in those situations expats have tendancy to speak "short hand"/abridged/slang forms of English

[Thai at Heart]

Having taught in all kinds of situations (language institutes, regular schools, companies, and university) in Thailand over the last 14 years, and from what I observe goes on here, there are so many obstacles to a Thai learning to become a competent speaker/user of English, many of them already mentioned on this thread. But perhaps a list of them in no particular order all will once again help me and anyone interested put it in perspective:

1. Culture doesn't support the idea that learning requires work and working at anything or being eager or making an effort is considered by many to be ungraceful and unbecoming

2. No need for most Thais to learn English, nor do they want to otherwise

3. Lack of interest in anything not Thai or international or regional, so no motivation

4. Cultural tendency to not tolerate mistakes in self or others nor take risks necessary to try using new language, saving face always comes first by a wide margin

5. Ruling classes invested in the wholesale failure of the majority of Thais, English is just another thing they aren't allowed to have lest they begin to be a competitive threat

6. Succeeding at English makes one different and by that subject to having problems socially

7. Education system probably designed to demotivate, subordinate, and disempower

8. Education system doesn't value good teachers ie; doesn't pay them enough, doesn't hire them, doesn't like them when they are hired, seen as a threat to the authority of headmasters etc. who have little to no English ability or teaching skills

9. Xenophobia is high and probably not getting better

10. Thailand's history of having no contact with western ways or languages

11. Government education authorities perennially have no will to begin to address problems pragmatically. For example it's better to declare that it is the Year of Learning English and be done with it.

12. Rigid narrow inflexible attitudes when it comes to education "philosophy," do it the traditional way or the highway

13. Immigration requirements for foreign teachers get worse, more complicated, and simply impossible to comply with with each passing year

14. Most Thais simply don't want to learn English which probably ought to be respected as their choice

15. Thai culture isn't oriented towards the verbal/valuing communication end of the spectrum, in fact it is often better that there is a misunderstanding or communication gap so that face can be saved,

16. Test scores are the only thing that matter to educators and education systems

17. Less English in the world around Thais, ie; more movies overdubbed in Thai, products and signs increasingly are Thai only

I'm sure there are reams of other difficulties Thais face, but of course many people here learn English quite well. I'd agree that the bottom line is that you have to have some motivation hence many bargirls or tourist industry people become quite competent at English. I doubt Thailand is going to stand for having other people from other ASEAN nations take their jobs away from them as seems to be what is promised by the 2015 ASEAN union where workers of ASEAN nations will be able to work in Thailand with minimal to no immigration restrictions. It seems those foreign workers would then become top choice for international firms and hotel industry. I would guess that Thailand will negoatiate some kind of special dispensation from the ASEAN Union whereby they don't have to allow such workers to come in and work here and they will probably find some way to put off English proficiency for Thailand off permanently. I can't see Thailand responding by actually educating the populace in English nor do I see them allowing masses of Phillipinos to begin working all the hotel desks and taking all the jobs working at international firms based here. Just my two cents.

You'd have to see which jobs will actually allow freedom of movement under the AEC 2015/2016 rules. Only certain professionals will be in this category of allowed professions. In any case, I would actually like to see a bit more diversity in Thailand and if AEC can provide it that would be great. There is nothing less authentic than going to say a Vietnamese, Mexican or steak restaurant that claims to be authentic but doesn't have a single foreigner from the country of that cuisine serving you or in the kitchen making your food. In Laos for example, Vietnamese restaurants already have only Vietnamese staff and thus make authentic food, often without even a Lao menu. Ditto for Chinese restaurants, which might have a token Lao employee to take the orders of non-Chinese speaking customers. I went to a French restaurant in Vientiane recently and the owner, a Frenchman was right there talking to the foreigners there in French. His English-speaking Lao staff took most of the orders but he would take some himself. In Vang Vieng, a Singaporean owner/manager running a bakery/restaurant takes orders alongside his Lao staff - I have the feeling he doesn't speak more than a few words of Lao, but excellent English of course.

Vietnam and Cambodia and even China are similar - you'll find foreigners working in these sort of professions/running businesses etc. In Vietnam I met a Japanese customer service agent at the Sheraton in Saigon, she was directing guests to the restaurant upstairs - I have been to many top Thai hotels (including international chains) and can't recall even one foreigner working in any position that required extensive contact with guests; I have only ever seen Thais in such positions. All the foreigners working as F&B managers, hotel managers etc. are usually behind the scenes working in an office or another area where they can't be seen.

That's because, largely, they aren't allowed into companies below senior management or accountancy roles.

[wilcopops]

Like Shaunduh's list

.....but I think that far too much emphasis is put on Thailand's "lack of colonisation by the west" - I think this is accepted far too readily and without question.

in real terms, for 400 years or so Thailand has had lots of contact with "the West" and other countries; it has allied with western countries and even had foreigners as high ranking officials in government. A lot of this resulted in there being little need for any of the European powers and later America to colonise the country. to do this they communicated, adapted and absorbed a lot of western culture and ideas.

I think that the current "xenophobic' (probably too strong a word) policies now are really quite a new thing, born in on the back of policies claiming to "preserve and protect" a false image of Thai culture that really only serves to strengthen the status of the ruling elite.