Thai monks rebuked over 'ostentatious' jet ride

[Fullstop]

Good monks, bad monks, rich monks, poor monks......let them get on with it.

It's not my country I'm just a guest, so I couldn't care less if they travel by Rolls Royce and have wild parties every night. I don't care one iota care about things I can't change, particularly religion and strange beliefs in a foreign country. They have absolutely nothing to do with me or my life, never have done and never will do.

I feel the same about American politics.

[seminomadic]

The Pope is Catholic, Catholics have long displayed wealth and refinement (Puritanism meanwhile supports the opposite). Theravada Buddhism, on the other hand, is actively defined around a set of precepts (5 for laymen - 272 for Monks) many of the Monks precepts relate to not owning things other than discarded rags and offered food, to not attempt to beautify oneself or show off (which is why they shave their heads and make up is banned), to eat just enough to sustain life (2/3rds full), etc. Owning flashy luggage, mobile phones, computers (it is OK to use computers, but they should be owned by the temple not the individual), designer/fashion sun glasses etc. It is direct violation - it would be like the Pope having a live-in girlfriend - would nothing be said if that was discovered?

Nothing new here. The Pope has a Maybach and his private airplane partition would make a business-class passenger blush. The clergy were the next set of historical swindlers after kings (See Guns, Germs and Steel). But Thai Buddhism is so holy that nothing but the holiness can touch such holiness.

So how are Thailand's monks different than the pope?

The Pope is one man for a start - the head of the world's wealthiest most opulent church, the world's biggest denomination of the world's biggest religion - a church that does not abhor wealth or flashy shows (just walk into any Catholic cathedral) - the canon of the church is not against wealth, not against possessions, not against taking private jets (the Vatican owns a fleet!) The Pope is also the de facto King of the richest country (per head of capita) in the world.

Whereas, the Theravada monks are disallowed by precepts they swear to Buddha, Sangha and Dharma to uphold whilst a monk.

This is apples and hotdogs (pears were too close). A better comparison might be a Catholic monastic order such as Monks of St. Augustine (Ordo Sancti Augustini) which denies monks the right to person possessions.

Wow. Thanks for that clarification regarding the details of one delusion as compared with another.

Uncomon cents - given the cheap shot you pulled here -

asking for clarification

getting it

and having nothing more intelligent to offer than some negative blanket platitude in response to it

- I want to say thank you in advance for any and all time you heretofore refrain from trolling Thai Visa.

[mikemac]

Is it so terrible to find out some Monks flew on a plane, had a designer bag, wore sunglasses etc ? Compared to some of the antics the other religions get up to, (condoning the slaughter of people who dare to follow another religion, and much more,) I think I would rather put up with a few jet-setting Monks any day.

[culicine]

Referring to the video, he said the public reaction should depend on whether the monks chose to travel by private jet or if it was organised by followers.

They normally have luxury cars to drive around in...but that source has dried up so they had to fly instead

Not surprising...saw a pic of a very expensive van (velfire or something similar) getting a professional wrap job. Supposedly owned by a temple. Nice to see they put their donations to good use...We only ever give food to monks, never money.

The organiser of the trip should have known better than to organise a flight in a private plane. Our local monks, given the choice, always prefer to travel in the old pickup rather than our new (at the time), car. That's the way they should act.

[Fullstop]

Anyone else think they were "rebuked" because the beans were spilled and at the same time the 'authorities' are turning a blind eye to countless other examples?

[HOOD Robin]

Good monks, bad monks, rich monks, poor monks......let them get on with it.

It's not my country I'm just a guest, so I couldn't care less if they travel by Rolls Royce and have wild parties every night. I don't care one iota care about things I can't change, particularly religion and strange beliefs in a foreign country. They have absolutely nothing to do with me or my life, never have done and never will do.

I feel the same about American politics.

[ekkamai]

What exactly are all those mons doing in Pantip plaza? Every time I go, I notice that there is a surprising number there. Please explain - someone.

Buying bling bling and other stuff that distracts from the tenets of Buddhism. Also, buying it with wads of cash they personally are carrying (monk can't touch money which is why you travel with an anagarika (paa kaow - white clothes) who is a layman that can conduct transactions. Back to what I said before: forest monks are the real deal.

The ones in Pantip don't even bother to disguise.

[worgeordie]

This is the problem with most religions,cults,dictatorships,it all boils down to power

and money.its as simple as that.

regards Worgeordie

[balo]

I dont think they were hiso munks.

Probably fake luis vutton bag and sunglasses you can buy at any Thai market . They were offered a private jet , no big deal.

[Tagaa]

I didn't bother to read anymore than about half of the first page of posts, so if this has been mentioned before, please forgive the repitition.

I watched the video...They landed in Ubon...that's a fer piece from Si Sa Ket. I'm guessin that's a 3 hour drive....if not 4 hours. I've driven it before but it was 2 years ago & my recolection is a bit fuzzy.

Probably not much more than that to drive from BKK, but that's just a guess.

[jaideeguy]

I know of a few 'millionaire monks', as they are fondly referred to by both locals and other monks. Most own land adjacent to the wats and make a few baht renting the land out for wat fundraisers with whiskey, coyote dancers and food vendors. When I learned that I stopped patronizing them.

[Several]

Monks are only disrobed for killing, stealing, sexual misconduct or claiming supernatural powers. These boys did a silly a thing and got told off, which is what generally happens. Nobody is perfect and it takes time and effort to become the best monk you can be. Even after five years a monk won't be taken seriously by many people, especially other elder monks. Everything you do is viewed with suspicion. 'where are you going?' and 'what are you doing?' are thrown at you constantly regardless of the consistent innocence of your actions. And then we get criticism from laypeople too. It is a pain for all clergy when some monks behave like this, but we must see the positive in it and for me it means keeping on the straight and narrow. When everybody watches like hawks, don't act like a rat.

[MAGS75]

general statement:

religion isn't bad, it's people that are bad, no matter which religion AND religion is man-made.

fake vuitton i reckon ?

I thought it looked like the start of a rap video,blingtastic....

[ginjag]

Religions---well most are businesses, some of the biggest land owners in the UK are owned by the church---other religions have worshipers who give a per/cent of their wages to the cause, others blast the living daylight out of their fellow worshipers.

This thread IS disturbing when you see as I have, one instance at my last address, every morning a blind Thai -old lady-6am on the dot would wait on the village road to give her rice to the passing monks. Now when the local temple are grabbing cigs and money for fortunes, and taking money for lottery numbers, and have been known to have w/e pleasures, YES company.

This thread speaks of what is not the norm on this scale BUT I wonder what we do not hear about. I am not a weekly follower and never will be, What thoughts of well being to others I speak to myself and keep it that way.

[CPT]

I probably have less of an understanding of the situation than many here but couldn't this genuinly be a case of a patron trying to make merit by treating the monks to an exceptional experience? Could this be the modern equivelant of paying for a chedi to be built? It is also entirely possible that the monks have their own funds that they put toward this trip.

I think it is worth remembering that monks are not all the same. Many, certainly most over time, are in fact students learning the religion and making merit over a short period of time. They are not generally analagous to Christian monks.

I agree that what happened is distasteful and that there are abuses in Buddhism just as in all other religions but I don't think blanket condemnations really fit the situation given the paucity of information.

Edited June 18, 2013 by CPT

[hellodolly]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

Thant was pretty much my take on it. If the video had been shot all focusing on one point I might not have considered that but these Monks or fakes (my belief) chose to let them be video taped with things a Monk would know was wrong to own and do. Not saying they wouldn't do it but they would not let it be filmed.

I found the following paragraph to be interesting.

"To be in the monkhood one should be isolated and content with what one has," said Pra Khru Vinaithorn Teerawit, of the Buddhism Protection Center of Thailand, adding complaints are most commonly made against newly ordained monks."

If they were contend with what they have why bother meditating. Or for that matter building Wat's?

[hellodolly]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

whatever do you mean not monks.

One MONK has been positively identified by "Virood Chaipanna, director of Si Sa Ket's Office of Buddhism,"

the others may not b monks at all, but what dos that say about the one travelling in their company.

nobody has anything against a genuinely devout clergy, and even the average male on retreat is forgiven many a transgression, but these guys are clearly taking the piss

Why use slang when a good portion of the readers are NOT from your country where only that slang is known?

Stick around a while and you will catch on. I am from North America and have no problem with it Mate.

what was your opinion of it. Mine is if a wealthy patron wants to give them a free ride in his private Jet so what. Just look at the video and you will maybe get the idea this was a stitch up.

Edited June 18, 2013 by hellodolly

[pistachios]

10 minutes ago on Thai TV. One monk caught with the luxury car tax scam, proudly showing his 4 cars collection (Benz, jaguar...). Another one was shown building a 70 million baht huge mansion. Reporters didn't say where the money was coming from but some member of the wat said he was a good monk. All is well then!

[wolf5370]

Religions---well most are businesses, some of the biggest land owners in the UK are owned by the church---other religions have worshipers who give a per/cent of their wages to the cause, others blast the living daylight out of their fellow worshipers.

This thread IS disturbing when you see as I have, one instance at my last address, every morning a blind Thai -old lady-6am on the dot would wait on the village road to give her rice to the passing monks. Now when the local temple are grabbing cigs and money for fortunes, and taking money for lottery numbers, and have been known to have w/e pleasures, YES company.

This thread speaks of what is not the norm on this scale BUT I wonder what we do not hear about. I am not a weekly follower and never will be, What thoughts of well being to others I speak to myself and keep it that way.

One thing here, may be make you feel better, is that the old lady is making her merit for her kamma ( กรรม) regardless of the actions of the monk or temple. It is a personal thing. To help the ungrateful is still helping, still merit; they can only harm their own kamma.

[ginjag]

Religions---well most are businesses, some of the biggest land owners in the UK are owned by the church---other religions have worshipers who give a per/cent of their wages to the cause, others blast the living daylight out of their fellow worshipers.

This thread IS disturbing when you see as I have, one instance at my last address, every morning a blind Thai -old lady-6am on the dot would wait on the village road to give her rice to the passing monks. Now when the local temple are grabbing cigs and money for fortunes, and taking money for lottery numbers, and have been known to have w/e pleasures, YES company.

This thread speaks of what is not the norm on this scale BUT I wonder what we do not hear about. I am not a weekly follower and never will be, What thoughts of well being to others I speak to myself and keep it that way.

One thing here, may be make you feel better, is that the old lady is making her merit for her kamma ( กรรม) regardless of the actions of the monk or temple. It is a personal thing. To help the ungrateful is still helping, still merit; they can only harm their own kamma.

I understand what you say, and if this makes this old lady feel good and gives her pleasure--BRILL

BUT it is the gist of it all, when the said monks abuse the religion.

Saying to the old lady your gift every morning is fabulouse but you need the rice more than us --as we can get much money in other ways and we receive more rice than we can cope with every day.

[Bagwan]

Quote

The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness.

Unquote

Sounds like a decription of those that choose to populate Soi Cowboy, Nana, soi 6 ...........

There is no shortage of monks who, for a consideration, will banish spirits from a building or land. I recall the then Transport Minister explaining that the delays in building Swampy could be put down to the presence of evil spirits. "I know this to be true because one just flew right past me" he was reported as saying. Super Monk and a few followers were called in. It seems that rather than being reason enough to be defrocked, actions purporting to support the view that monks have supernatural powers are fairly commonplace. Do I need to mention amulets? Maybe not.

I have to wonder if all this meditation and chanting produces a greater understanding of the World in which we live. There is no scientific evidence that ghosts and spirits actually exist although that doesn't stop the Catholic Church from making a few shekels from exorcisms. As for the Holy Ghost that is supposed to reside within all of us, let us call it by it's proper name shall we? The word is conscience.

[samjaidee]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

The actions of the individual determine whether they reach Nirvana.

[oldsailor35]

Calm down, they are Hiso's going to a fancy dress party.

[belg]

as anyone can become a monk, specially loved by criminals to evade to be found and jailed, why would anyone "pay" so many respect to a possible crook in the first place ?

i remember on thai tv, a monk who became a bit crazy and paranoid, that police and others had stolen his "lottery" money

[itchybum]

he decided to go to Sri Saket as was asked to stay for the rest of his final life (his last existence; there is no more rebirth).

Just making the most of what he has left now.

[chrisinth]

I have two comments. Firstly if Monks are going to France then it's probably better flying than walking - if the sponsors want to pay, then so what? Secondly, I don't believe these guys are monks. The chap at the back had longer hair than me! A Monk with a mustache? Nah..... It's a spoof designed to do exactly what it is doing - throwing the Monks "under the bus" for some reason

whatever do you mean not monks.

One MONK has been positively identified by "Virood Chaipanna, director of Si Sa Ket's Office of Buddhism,"

the others may not b monks at all, but what dos that say about the one travelling in their company.

nobody has anything against a genuinely devout clergy, and even the average male on retreat is forgiven many a transgression, but these guys are clearly taking the piss

I have to ask myself what a monk from a Wat in Si Sa Ket would be doing in France.................

The way these monks look i guess tasting exquisite wines in some chateau or shopping on champs elysees?!

Touche...................

[wolf5370]

as anyone can become a monk, specially loved by criminals to evade to be found and jailed, why would anyone "pay" so many respect to a possible crook in the first place ?

i remember on thai tv, a monk who became a bit crazy and paranoid, that police and others had stolen his "lottery" money

It is not to the individual respect is shown, but to the monkhood its self - same way as we teach our kids (at home at least) to respect the law and police officer, we are teaching them to respect the uniform/badge/etc not necessarily the individual.

Any way the merit is on the individual, we can only get kamma for ourselves (good and bad) not for others (I believe this is distinct in Theravada Buddhism) - so it really doesn't matter to out kamma if we show respect to the next enlightened one or a real jackass in orange - that's his kamma to realise.

Right mind is a precept of Buddhism - I am not sure how this carries with the disturbed of mind (your paranoid monk); one would assume they could not really be monks (not being able to fulfil the basic 5 precepts), but would be kept in the Sangha for care reasons.

[chrisinth]

conclusion after 113 replies: the main religion in this world is called consumerism.

That may be global but I have noticed quite a few bahtists over here..........................

[giggles]

What exactly are all those mons doing in Pantip plaza? Every time I go, I notice that there is a surprising number there. Please explain - someone.

you can only asume to stock up on CDs and play games back at the wat. instead of prayers ?

[giggles]

Is it so terrible to find out some Monks flew on a plane, had a designer bag, wore sunglasses etc ? Compared to some of the antics the other religions get up to, (condoning the slaughter of people who dare to follow another religion, and much more,) I think I would rather put up with a few jet-setting Monks any day.

not so bad ,but they are always in the 1st class seats when i fly upcountry