Thai Buddhism: Much deeper things have gone wrong

[Bagwan]

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

So he didn't turn water into wine? At Communion they take a sip of Coke?

I wouldn't mind a stroll round the wine cellars of the Vatican, particularly if I could 'liberate' a few bottles.

[Sheryl]

To put it in perspective, I don't think there is any organized religion in which the majority of adherents really live the teachings. Could even be argued that the majority do not even really know the teachings, and no religion has a monopoly on this problem.

And they all seem to get corrupted in the same ways. Donations to temples to "buy" merit, or burning candles/commissioning masses in a Catholic church, same idea i.e. knowingly doing what one should not and expected to more or less buy your way out of it. Buddhist amulets or St Christopher medals. Same same. Looking for short cuts/quick fixes and ignoring what had been taught about the actual path.

Likewise in any religion there are people who do take it seriously and try to walk the talk, I certainly know plenty of Thai Buddhists whom that is true of but yes, they are a minority. As are the number of Christians who actually try to live by the teachings of Christ.

[CIHUAHUA]

A group of monks were passing the Buddha on the road and when they were close enough the Buddha asked where they were going. They looked at him and said " We are going to the temple to meditate". The Buddha replied and asked "How do you do that"? The monks replied "We pray at the alter that has an image of the Buddha."

[dluek]

To put it in perspective, I don't think there is any organized religion in which the majority of adherents really live the teachings. Could even be argued that the majority do not even really know the teachings, and no religion has a monopoly on this problem.

And they all seem to get corrupted in the same ways. Donations to temples to "buy" merit, or burning candles/commissioning masses in a Catholic church, same idea i.e. knowingly doing what one should not and expected to more or less buy your way out of it. Buddhist amulets or St Christopher medals. Same same. Looking for short cuts/quick fixes and ignoring what had been taught about the actual path.

Likewise in any religion there are people who do take it seriously and try to walk the talk, I certainly know plenty of Thai Buddhists whom that is true of but yes, they are a minority. As are the number of Christians who actually try to live by the teachings of Christ.

Exactly what I was thinking. Every organized religion has problems. A small minority of Islamists blow up themselves and others in the name of Allah. Some Hindus think it's okay to beat women. A handful of Catholic priests take advantage of kids. In comparison, a few Buddhist monks having sex and driving fancy cars doesn't seem so bad.

I agree that money would be better spent, both from a karmic and social perspective, on building hospitals or giving food to the poor rather than erecting the latest lavish temple structure. But merit-making runs deep in the Theravada; it's as ancient as Buddhism itself, even if it's often misguided today. While their intentions are perfectly fine, I feel that foreigners who've read a few books on Zen and maybe attended a meditation group in their home country have no authority to proclaim what is "un-Buddhist." It's evident in the early scriptures that the Buddha himself ate meat if it was offered, unless he deemed it to have been killed specifically for him. And people in every Buddhist nation eat meat and drink plenty of alcohol. This utopian Buddhist society where it's all love and generosity and forgiveness simply doesn't exist in the world -- not now and not at any time in history. But that doesn't mean that people in every Buddhist society, including Thailand, don't strive to live up to true Buddhist principles.

Buddhism in Thailand is a long road that's gone through many twists and turns. To get a flavor of what traditional "Thai Buddhism" was all about before Thailand was modernized, I suggest reading "The Buddha in the Jungle" by Kamala Tiyavanich.

[camerata]

The hard part is following in the founder's footsteps

Tulsathit Taptim

THE NATION

The Lord Buddha had it easy. This may sound sacrilegious, but if you were a prince fed up with being surrounded by numerous sexy ladies and having everything else at your command, the path to nirvana would probably be all downhill from there. If you are a "nobody" hoping to seek solace in the Buddhist monkhood but happen to hit a bonanza of public reverence, you've only just begun.

The Lord Buddha had it all and gave it all away. Many Buddhist monks, on the other hand, have nothing and come to want everything. Their path to nirvana is up a very steep hill with attractions, distractions and temptation every step of the way.

It therefore comes as no surprise that Thai Buddhist monks are constantly in the news for all the wrong reasons. The latest scandals feature monks owning expensive cars, falling in love, riding on a private jet and in possession of brandname accessories. This is nothing new, actually. Misbehaving monks, whether they are senior or junior, are as common as cops taking bribes. Whenever investigative reporters feel like doing such a story, they are bound to discover something.

We can blame the monks, but we must not forget to scold ourselves every time we feel the urge to make a "poor" monk's life a little more comfortable, or become embarrassed when our offerings of food do not look as elegant or delicious as a neighbour's. It takes two to tango.

The fast developments in the layman's world don't help either. When people say Buddhist monks should embrace technology, they often forget to say how. Of course, monks probably should carry computer tablets or smartphones so they can do research on spirituality online, or tweet "sermons" to disciples, but would that be like giving an iPad to a boy and hope that he doesn't spend too much time playing games? This question, no matter how insulting it may sound, is legitimate where Thailand's ecclesiastic community is concerned.

There are more lines to cross in religion than in normal life. Once stepped over, those lines are gone forever. For Buddhist monks, it may start with a tiny little alms offering that is not necessary for their daily life. Then the alms offerings become genuine gifts, and then the gifts get bigger, like a Mercedes or a trip to Europe.

You can't expect monks to go on "pilgrimage" to France by foot, one may argue. And if revered monks are given a red-carpet welcome by organisers of religious events, critics should understand that the world has drastically changed from the Lord Buddha's day. These arguments are supposed to be founded on pragmatism, but in fact they contain a gaping hole because they run counter to Buddhism's core essence.

Buddhist monks are required to detach themselves from materialism. If they can use computer notebooks to preach awareness that what we think we own, we actually do not, then that is fine. What's happening, however, is that notebooks, computer tablets and smartphones have spoiled many monks, bringing them ever closer to the layman's world. These gadgets have not become something that can "help" monks, but something that they - like everyone else - "must" have. The same goes for other luxuries such as high-end stereos, designer travel bags and big cars.

Alarmed Buddhists are calling for a revamp. With the "fortress" broken down to almost non-existence, how can we defend our monks against increasingly prevalent temptation? In other words, society and the monastic establishment are in this together, so changes must be wholesale. We can't expect things to improve by just, say, subjecting men who want to be ordained to tougher scrutiny.

Attachment is Buddhism's great enemy. What society has done is help the enemy infiltrate and threaten to consume the religion. It's a conspiracy that started in an arguably innocent manner but has become menacing. Wayward monks are deplorable, but they are by no means the root cause of the problem.

Technology is making it harder to reinforce the "fortress". Do monks need to have smartphones or computer tablets? Some say they do, at least because they should get to know the tools that would otherwise be monopolised by the devil. Problem is, the monks are being exposed with their bare-bones immunity ready to crack.

When just about everyone has a mobile phone by their side around the clock, is it possible to think that monks don't need to do the same? Buddhism is said to be a compromising religion, so a middle-path answer must be there. The trick is how to stick to the middle path without having to expand it.

It doesn't matter if a monk who is the headline of the hour is a conman. The genuine practice of Buddhism wouldn't have let him get started. He managed to stay on because once we condone an electronic gadget, what's wrong with a luxury car? And then if a luxury car is acceptable, what's wrong with a private jet?

The Lord Buddha was heading one way and our monks the other. His was a simple and easy path because he had experienced it all and known full well what materialism and vanity did to the quest for spirituality. One can have the same goal as his, but one can't attain that goal by taking a reverse journey.

Source: The Nation.

[Neeranam]

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

So he didn't turn water into wine? At Communion they take a sip of Coke?

I wouldn't mind a stroll round the wine cellars of the Vatican, particularly if I could 'liberate' a few bottles.

Not alcoholic wine. Many Christians justify their own drunkenness by stating that Jesus did this. Think about it - would he want people to get drunk?

The word 'wine' in the English version of the bible is used for 10 different Hebrew words and 2 Greek words.

[indyuk]

Happy to see this article on Thai Theravada Buddhism. If only the Thai people could discuss Articles like this and other structural fractures in Thai society and culture openly.

After 20 years I grow more appaled every day at the depth of depravity and corruption in Thailand reaching down through businesses, Temples and communities all the way down to the un-educated poor with their adictions to scurrilous behavior fired up by the cheap beer, cigarettes and Yaba. All this together with such a lack of understanding of the rights of people regardless of Race, Colour or Creed.

I suppose all of this is a consequense of the centurys of opression that has boren down on the people.

[SteeleJoe]

This is very brave of this Thai journalist to so openly criticize Buddhism in his country. I have often felt much the same when observing Thai Buddhism.

Before I came to Thailand, I became very interested in Zen Buddhism. I also frequented a Buddhist center that practiced Tibetan Buddhism. Both of these forms of Buddhism taught me many things about acceptance, patience, love, and kindness. I was actually kind of shocked - and have grown more so by degrees - when I first arrived here. Thai people eat meat, drink alcohol! I was naively thinking that a Buddhist nation would all be teetotal. But that lay people do all these things isn't really a big issue. The fact that many monks smoke, eat meat, openly carry cell phones, drink etc is highly un-Buddhist.

The truth is, Thais have their very own breed of Buddhism that is mixed up with Hinduism and Animism, and I don't know what else...Question I have always asked myself (and I know it's a rather cynical one): Are religions just a cover up for base human desires, a way to control our animal impulses somewhat? Is anyone really capable of being "saintly"?

I have been taught by experience never to criticize a monk. Karma has a way of working when one does.

There is no Thai Buddhism. There is Theravada Buddhism.

I spent time in a Mahayana Buddhist retreat in Daramasla, India, where most of the monks are 'Tibetan' - they all ate meat, which surprised me at the time, as did other practices like the Tantric ones.

Tibetans perception of what the Buddha taught are different to Thais, Indians, Japanese etc.

In Scotland some people's understanding of Christianity is totally different from someone in Utah or Rome etc.

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

Live and let live.

* I don't believe for a second that monks have some sort of supernatural protection from criticism in the form of karmic retribution: and that's not any sort of Buddhism I'm familiar with. I find the very notion both absurd and offensive.

* There is a Thai version of Theravada Buddhism. (Which has incorporated - as is the case in other countries - superstitions and local traditions (eg animism) along with Brahmin and Hindu beliefs). Not to mention the degeneration of the original precepts or the degree to which many are ignorant of them.

* Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with the topic nor does the fact that it is claimed by loads of hypocrites and liars mitigate in any way the ills of Thai Buddhism.

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

As for the OP - I'm not that impressed. It seems, in my opinion, quite limited in scope, somewhat simplistic and short on analysis.

[edwinchester]

The coins that are dropped into a beggars cup by most Thais are almost never given as charity for the beggar. Those coins are to buy merit for the benefit of the donor. This is completely against what the Buddha taught.

 

Maybe the beggars should become monks then 

Have you ever seen a disabled young monk? I know a few that were unable to do a term as monks because they had a physical disability.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kotsak]

A group of monks were passing the Buddha on the road and when they were close enough the Buddha asked where they were going. They looked at him and said " We are going to the temple to meditate". The Buddha replied and asked "How do you do that"? The monks replied "We pray at the alter that has an image of the Buddha."

brilliant..

[toooa]

#20 "Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol...."

well it didn't bother him too much did it? After all, turning water into wine isn't exactly saying "don't drink".

[toooa]

Theravada... Thailand Style seems pretty Animistic too me. Religion starts off as a sincere and ideological path, and sooner or later it becomes a political tool used in various ways to propagate the power and influence of those who claim it gives them some kind of divine right etc.... It's also a great sinkhole for wealth. I get the feeling that if Buddha or Jesus were to grace us with their presence, they'd be a little disappointed with their followers.

[Neeranam]

This is very brave of this Thai journalist to so openly criticize Buddhism in his country. I have often felt much the same when observing Thai Buddhism.

Before I came to Thailand, I became very interested in Zen Buddhism. I also frequented a Buddhist center that practiced Tibetan Buddhism. Both of these forms of Buddhism taught me many things about acceptance, patience, love, and kindness. I was actually kind of shocked - and have grown more so by degrees - when I first arrived here. Thai people eat meat, drink alcohol! I was naively thinking that a Buddhist nation would all be teetotal. But that lay people do all these things isn't really a big issue. The fact that many monks smoke, eat meat, openly carry cell phones, drink etc is highly un-Buddhist.

The truth is, Thais have their very own breed of Buddhism that is mixed up with Hinduism and Animism, and I don't know what else...Question I have always asked myself (and I know it's a rather cynical one): Are religions just a cover up for base human desires, a way to control our animal impulses somewhat? Is anyone really capable of being "saintly"?

I have been taught by experience never to criticize a monk. Karma has a way of working when one does.

There is no Thai Buddhism. There is Theravada Buddhism.

I spent time in a Mahayana Buddhist retreat in Daramasla, India, where most of the monks are 'Tibetan' - they all ate meat, which surprised me at the time, as did other practices like the Tantric ones.

Tibetans perception of what the Buddha taught are different to Thais, Indians, Japanese etc.

In Scotland some people's understanding of Christianity is totally different from someone in Utah or Rome etc.

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

Live and let live.

* I don't believe for a second that monks have some sort of supernatural protection from criticism in the form of karmic retribution: and that's not any sort of Buddhism I'm familiar with. I find the very notion both absurd and offensive.

* There is a Thai version of Theravada Buddhism. (Which has incorporated - as is the case in other countries - superstitions and local traditions (eg animism) along with Brahmin and Hindu beliefs). Not to mention the degeneration of the original precepts or the degree to which many are ignorant of them.

* Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with the topic nor does the fact that it is claimed by loads of hypocrites and liars mitigate in any way the ills of Thai Buddhism.

I think it is rather naive to think that some monks have supernatural powers.

Once, near the end of a Buddhist retreat in Dharmsala, N. India, our group of Westerners were treated to a visit by a top Lama. We also met the Dalai Lama which was amazing and after shaking his hand I couldn't stop smiling for 3 days and was on on a very special 'pink cloud' but that's another story.

Anyway, this top Lama came to answer questions that we had with the help of a Russian guy who translated from Tibetan to English. There was one Israeli girl who asked him why the monks in the local town weren't vegetarian. She said, rather rudely, "they are like pigs". Anyways after an hour or so we finished with a meditation and one of the strangest things I've seen happened. The same girl, who was sitting at the very front fell over from her meditative seating and was flat out on the floor in front of everyone. She was fast asleep and making the most pig-like snoring sounds I've ever heard. What caused this? I don't know but it was something to do with her rudeness in front of this particular special monk.

[SteeleJoe]

This is very brave of this Thai journalist to so openly criticize Buddhism in his country. I have often felt much the same when observing Thai Buddhism.

Before I came to Thailand, I became very interested in Zen Buddhism. I also frequented a Buddhist center that practiced Tibetan Buddhism. Both of these forms of Buddhism taught me many things about acceptance, patience, love, and kindness. I was actually kind of shocked - and have grown more so by degrees - when I first arrived here. Thai people eat meat, drink alcohol! I was naively thinking that a Buddhist nation would all be teetotal. But that lay people do all these things isn't really a big issue. The fact that many monks smoke, eat meat, openly carry cell phones, drink etc is highly un-Buddhist.

The truth is, Thais have their very own breed of Buddhism that is mixed up with Hinduism and Animism, and I don't know what else...Question I have always asked myself (and I know it's a rather cynical one): Are religions just a cover up for base human desires, a way to control our animal impulses somewhat? Is anyone really capable of being "saintly"?

I have been taught by experience never to criticize a monk. Karma has a way of working when one does.

There is no Thai Buddhism. There is Theravada Buddhism.

I spent time in a Mahayana Buddhist retreat in Daramasla, India, where most of the monks are 'Tibetan' - they all ate meat, which surprised me at the time, as did other practices like the Tantric ones.

Tibetans perception of what the Buddha taught are different to Thais, Indians, Japanese etc.

In Scotland some people's understanding of Christianity is totally different from someone in Utah or Rome etc.

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

Live and let live.

* I don't believe for a second that monks have some sort of supernatural protection from criticism in the form of karmic retribution: and that's not any sort of Buddhism I'm familiar with. I find the very notion both absurd and offensive.

* There is a Thai version of Theravada Buddhism. (Which has incorporated - as is the case in other countries - superstitions and local traditions (eg animism) along with Brahmin and Hindu beliefs). Not to mention the degeneration of the original precepts or the degree to which many are ignorant of them.

* Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with the topic nor does the fact that it is claimed by loads of hypocrites and liars mitigate in any way the ills of Thai Buddhism.

I think it is rather naive to think that some monks have supernatural powers.

Once, near the end of a Buddhist retreat in Dharmsala, N. India, our group of Westerners were treated to a visit by a top Lama. We also met the Dalai Lama which was amazing and after shaking his hand I couldn't stop smiling for 3 days and was on on a very special 'pink cloud' but that's another story.

Anyway, this top Lama came to answer questions that we had with the help of a Russian guy who translated from Tibetan to English. There was one Israeli girl who asked him why the monks in the local town weren't vegetarian. She said, rather rudely, "they are like pigs". Anyways after an hour or so we finished with a meditation and one of the strangest things I've seen happened. The same girl, who was sitting at the very front fell over from her meditative seating and was flat out on the floor in front of everyone. She was fast asleep and making the most pig-like snoring sounds I've ever heard. What caused this? I don't know but it was something to do with her rudeness in front of this particular special monk.

"What caused this? I don't know but it was something to do with her rudeness in front of this particular special monk."

According to you.

[Neeranam]

^^

Not just according to me, others that were there thought it was rude too and had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it.

Another thing I thought interesting was that when this lama was told that most Western people don't believe in reincarnation, he laughed so infectiously that the whole room full of people were laughing for what seemed like ages.

I'd be interested to hear of others in this forum who have witnessed any strange, 'supernatural' things with monks. I've seen things with yogis that were incredible - breaking the laws of physics.

I've heard that some Tibetan monks can see into the future and even levitate!

Edited July 10, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

This is very brave of this Thai journalist to so openly criticize Buddhism in his country. I have often felt much the same when observing Thai Buddhism.

Before I came to Thailand, I became very interested in Zen Buddhism. I also frequented a Buddhist center that practiced Tibetan Buddhism. Both of these forms of Buddhism taught me many things about acceptance, patience, love, and kindness. I was actually kind of shocked - and have grown more so by degrees - when I first arrived here. Thai people eat meat, drink alcohol! I was naively thinking that a Buddhist nation would all be teetotal. But that lay people do all these things isn't really a big issue. The fact that many monks smoke, eat meat, openly carry cell phones, drink etc is highly un-Buddhist.

The truth is, Thais have their very own breed of Buddhism that is mixed up with Hinduism and Animism, and I don't know what else...Question I have always asked myself (and I know it's a rather cynical one): Are religions just a cover up for base human desires, a way to control our animal impulses somewhat? Is anyone really capable of being "saintly"?

I have been taught by experience never to criticize a monk. Karma has a way of working when one does.

There is no Thai Buddhism. There is Theravada Buddhism.

I spent time in a Mahayana Buddhist retreat in Daramasla, India, where most of the monks are 'Tibetan' - they all ate meat, which surprised me at the time, as did other practices like the Tantric ones.

Tibetans perception of what the Buddha taught are different to Thais, Indians, Japanese etc.

In Scotland some people's understanding of Christianity is totally different from someone in Utah or Rome etc.

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

Live and let live.

Sort of understand what you are getting at but what's your take on the 'jet-setting monk' from Sisaket? Open for criticism?

Certainly open for criticism but Buddhism in Thailand isn't.

Aren't there leaders in all religions that are filthy rich?

[SteeleJoe]

^^

Not just according to me, others that were there thought it was rude too and had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it.

Another thing I thought interesting was that when this lama was told that most Western people don't believe in reincarnation, he laughed so infectiously that the whole room full of people were laughing for what seemed like ages.

I'd be interested to hear of others in this forum who have witnessed any strange, 'supernatural' things with monks. I've seen things with yogis that were incredible - breaking the laws of physics.

I've heard that some Tibetan monks can see into the future and even levitate!

* She was very rude. I think that's pretty much an objective fact.

* So according to you and others what happened had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it. No offense but that makes the conclusion no more (or less) credible to me; millions of people believe things that I don't believe at all. When I watch a video of a preacher touching someone and that person goes into paroxysms, I'm not inclined to believe that it is anything supernatural despite the fact the everyone in the church would swear it is.

* I'm not clear on the significance of the monk's amusement.

* I know that meditation and disciplines tapping into some of the more extreme capabilities of the human brain can afford truly extraordinary capabilities. I don't have any reason to attribute that to anything supernatural (and I know of someone who has spent decades studying Vipassanā - including a decade in India and Tibet - very, very seriously. He also has no belief in the supernatural).

* I've heard Elvis isn't dead.

[SteeleJoe]

This is very brave of this Thai journalist to so openly criticize Buddhism in his country. I have often felt much the same when observing Thai Buddhism.

Before I came to Thailand, I became very interested in Zen Buddhism. I also frequented a Buddhist center that practiced Tibetan Buddhism. Both of these forms of Buddhism taught me many things about acceptance, patience, love, and kindness. I was actually kind of shocked - and have grown more so by degrees - when I first arrived here. Thai people eat meat, drink alcohol! I was naively thinking that a Buddhist nation would all be teetotal. But that lay people do all these things isn't really a big issue. The fact that many monks smoke, eat meat, openly carry cell phones, drink etc is highly un-Buddhist.

The truth is, Thais have their very own breed of Buddhism that is mixed up with Hinduism and Animism, and I don't know what else...Question I have always asked myself (and I know it's a rather cynical one): Are religions just a cover up for base human desires, a way to control our animal impulses somewhat? Is anyone really capable of being "saintly"?

I have been taught by experience never to criticize a monk. Karma has a way of working when one does.

There is no Thai Buddhism. There is Theravada Buddhism.

I spent time in a Mahayana Buddhist retreat in Daramasla, India, where most of the monks are 'Tibetan' - they all ate meat, which surprised me at the time, as did other practices like the Tantric ones.

Tibetans perception of what the Buddha taught are different to Thais, Indians, Japanese etc.

In Scotland some people's understanding of Christianity is totally different from someone in Utah or Rome etc.

Of course Jesus would not advocate the use of alcohol yet many Christian countries drink, a lot!

Live and let live.

Sort of understand what you are getting at but what's your take on the 'jet-setting monk' from Sisaket? Open for criticism?

Certainly open for criticism but Buddhism in Thailand isn't.

Aren't there leaders in all religions that are filthy rich?

Buddhism in Thailand isn't open for criticism?! Why? Ajarn Buddhadasa wouldn't have agreed with you.

Yes, there are leaders in all religions who are filthy rich (more or less). What is the relevance of that fact?

[khaowong1]

Very good article.. thank you.. At the present, I am in the US.. headed back to Thailand next week. Here at the temple I'm staying, we pretty much get only Thai people.. we have some Americans come once in awhile, and they always say the same thing. "This is Buddhism, I thought it was much different." I try to explain to the Thai monks, that they need to start following the Buddha's teachings more and get away from the Thai version. But they both don't understand and don't see the difference. The only Thai Buddhist temples I see getting a lot of Americans to their temples, are using a lot of English and doing away with the Thai concepts of merit, etc. Most Thai Buddhist temples in the US don't want to change over.. They want the Americans to learn to speak Thai. Besides the fact that they really haven't been taught any different. They are just following what their predecessors have taught.

[SteeleJoe]

ERROR

wierd things happening with my posts since update of app

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

DUPLICATE

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

I try to explain to the Thai monks, that they need to start following the Buddha's teachings more and get away from the Thai version. But they both don't understand and don't see the difference.

I wonder at the authenticity of their ignorance or incomprehension: I've spoken to probably dozens of Thai lay people - and a few "forest monks" - over the last 30 years about how Buddhism as it is widely (though not universally) perceived and "practiced" here is very much at odds - and sometimes explicitly in direct contradiction - with the teachings of the Buddha and many, many of them are aware of what I mean and agree (even though a majority of them will continue to ostensibly adhere to the social norms and folk wisdom they were taught).

Perhaps the monks have absolutely no intention of changing - and why would they - so it is easiest and reflects much less poorly on them than would saying, "No, we like our way better than sticking to a more pure Buddhism"...

Besides, they could hardly fail to see a difference without understanding it - or vice versa.

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Neeranam]

^^

Not just according to me, others that were there thought it was rude too and had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it.

Another thing I thought interesting was that when this lama was told that most Western people don't believe in reincarnation, he laughed so infectiously that the whole room full of people were laughing for what seemed like ages.

I'd be interested to hear of others in this forum who have witnessed any strange, 'supernatural' things with monks. I've seen things with yogis that were incredible - breaking the laws of physics.

I've heard that some Tibetan monks can see into the future and even levitate!

* She was very rude. I think that's pretty much an objective fact.

* So according to you and others what happened had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it. No offense but that makes the conclusion no more (or less) credible to me; millions of people believe things that I don't believe at all. When I watch a video of a preacher touching someone and that person goes into paroxysms, I'm not inclined to believe that it is anything supernatural despite the fact the everyone in the church would swear it is.

* I'm not clear on the significance of the monk's amusement.

* I know that meditation and disciplines tapping into some of the more extreme capabilities of the human brain can afford truly extraordinary capabilities. I don't have any reason to attribute that to anything supernatural (and I know of someone who has spent decades studying Vipassanā - including a decade in India and Tibet - very, very seriously. He also has no belief in the supernatural).

* I've heard Elvis isn't dead.

Do you think karma is supernatural?

Do you believe in coincidences?

How many times have you seen someone in a meditation group fall over onto the ground and snore like a pig?

[SteeleJoe]

Do you think karma is supernatural?

Do you believe in coincidences?

How many times have you seen someone in a meditation group fall over onto the ground and snore like a pig?

* I think what you have described is. I think any discussion of karma and what it may or may not be would have to be longer and more complex than I am prepared to go into - especially as there is no singular interpretation of what it is or entails (even if one adhere to the belief that it is one of the five aspects of niyama dhammas).

* Everything has a cause and effect. That is basic logic. But do I believe some things happen simultaneously at certain times absent any conscious intentional design (human or cosmic) whatsoever? Almost certainly. More to the point, I know of absolutely no reason why they couldn't.

* Errr...never.

[SteeleJoe]

Yikes! Using the ThaiVisa app it's not necessarily obvious which forum one is in and I don't pay attention: only just now realized I'm in the Buddhism forum.

I can only assume there are folks round here far more learned on the topic than I...maybe I should be more humble in offering commentary - or concentrate more on making sure it is reasonably accurate.

[khaowong1]

Do you think karma is supernatural?

Do you believe in coincidences?

How many times have you seen someone in a meditation group fall over onto the ground and snore like a pig?

* I think what you have described is. I think any discussion of karma and what it may or may not be would have to be longer and more complex than I am prepared to go into - especially as there is no singular interpretation of what it is or entails (even if one adhere to the belief that it is one of the five aspects of niyama dhammas).

* Everything has a cause and effect. That is basic logic. But do I believe some things happen simultaneously at certain times absent any conscious intentional design (human or cosmic) whatsoever? Almost certainly. More to the point, I know of absolutely no reason why they couldn't.

* Errr...never.

I've been looking for about 5 years to talk to some one who is really knowledgable about karma.. do you have any suggestions?

Phra Bill

[luckyman]

There's no business like holy business.

[fabianfred]

^^

Not just according to me, others that were there thought it was rude too and had to be something to do with what she said and the way she said it.

Another thing I thought interesting was that when this lama was told that most Western people don't believe in reincarnation, he laughed so infectiously that the whole room full of people were laughing for what seemed like ages.

I'd be interested to hear of others in this forum who have witnessed any strange, 'supernatural' things with monks. I've seen things with yogis that were incredible - breaking the laws of physics.

I've heard that some Tibetan monks can see into the future and even levitate!

There are Thai monks who can also see the future...see other beings karma....levitate..etc. My first teacher who is an Arahant, Luang por Jaran is one such. Naturally I have no proof of this, and haven't personally seen or experienced him do it. I have complete confidence that he is an Arahant and reading stories about his life written by those who I'm sure would never lie...I believe them.

Do you think karma is supernatural?

Do you believe in coincidences?

How many times have you seen someone in a meditation group fall over onto the ground and snore like a pig?

* I think what you have described is. I think any discussion of karma and what it may or may not be would have to be longer and more complex than I am prepared to go into - especially as there is no singular interpretation of what it is or entails (even if one adhere to the belief that it is one of the five aspects of niyama dhammas).

* Everything has a cause and effect. That is basic logic. But do I believe some things happen simultaneously at certain times absent any conscious intentional design (human or cosmic) whatsoever? Almost certainly. More to the point, I know of absolutely no reason why they couldn't.

* Errr...never.

I've been looking for about 5 years to talk to some one who is really knowledgable about karma.. do you have any suggestions?

Phra Bill

LP Jaran at Wat Amphawan

[KarenBravo]

Seeing the future implies that the whole universe is like clock-work and that the future events are "set".

This has been disproved by the hard science of quantum mechanics.

In other words, anyone that claims they can "see the future", is full of caca.