Corruption - Why do we make such assumptions, and where is our evidence?

[arthurboy]

A lot of TV posters - myself included - make overtly cynical, even sarcastic, comments every time we read pretty much anything spouted - there I go again - by a Thai politician, government official or someone from the military or police.

We immediately assume that whatever is said will somehow lead to a scheme whereby money will be skimmed off to line someone's pockets or is designed to cover up incompetence and/ or corruption or protect someone with connections and/ or money

I'm not just talking about the obviously corrupt schemes, such as the rice issue, but the never ending pronouncements like those on 'improving education', 'dealing with human trafficking' and 'stopping counterfeit goods'.

Why do we make such assumptions, and where is our evidence?

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Evidence? As the government in power, which ever one it is at the time, says: "Show me the receipts!" GFL!!

However, I ran into another corrupt traffic copy last Monday, one of the several at the toll both just north of Don Muang Airport. He stopped me, said couldn't read my front license plate, partially covered up. Hmmm, checked, and he's correct.

The then said baht 500 at the station but just 'cause he's a nice guy and would like to save me time and money, he'd let me off the hook for baht 300 then and there. My wife was with me, knows my attitude on this, and she declined. So he wrote out the ticket.

I went down to the Vibhavadi Police Station yesterday to pay it, baht 300!!

That's the corruption, for an on-the-spot "fine," the amount should be be 50%, or max baht 200. This cop was asking the same amount as the legit fine.

Mac

[Thai at Heart]

A lot of TV posters - myself included - make overtly cynical, even sarcastic, comments every time we read pretty much anything spouted - there I go again - by a Thai politician, government official or someone from the military or police.

We immediately assume that whatever is said will somehow lead to a scheme whereby money will be skimmed off to line someone's pockets or is designed to cover up incompetence and/ or corruption or protect someone with connections and/ or money

I'm not just talking about the obviously corrupt schemes, such as the rice issue, but the never ending pronouncements like those on 'improving education', 'dealing with human trafficking' and 'stopping counterfeit goods'.

Why do we make such assumptions, and where is our evidence?

Arthur, in terms of personal experience, only 2 weeks ago a tessaban manager openly requested 40% of a proposed contract from my company. A friend of mine just renewed his retirement visa for 30k without banking the cash, a trusted friend of mine who is quite wealthy has just done a runner for embezzling funds from her condo. I had dinner a week ago where a local businessman was so happy to have been tipped off about a new industrial development years ago so he can cash in on the land, a friend of ours is making millions selling vitamins that are claimed to put cancer into remission. My previous employers still deliver a huge wedge to excise every year to get exclusive rights to export a certain product. And the list goes on....

Some is just basic thievery, but in reality rules are in Thailand to be broken for a fee.

In financial terms this is not really a country, just a collection of money making fiefdoms.

[krisb]

Even my wife says its corrupt.

[Shoeboat]

The evidence is everywhere you look.

[chrisinth]

Even my wife says its corrupt.

Even my wife is corrupt...............

[ToddWeston]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

[Gsxrnz]

The Thai government says it's corrupt. The World Bank says it's corrupt. The UN says it's corrupt. The Thai people say it's corrupt.

Working on the Duck theory, it's a Duck.

[chrisinth]

When we read, see or hear everyday, whether it be the newspapers, television or the internet forums of all the bad points of the Thai business principles, it is a natural course that the majority of peoples minds will be, ironically, corrupted to expect the worst from every transaction that is done in this country.

Bad news is good news!

Obviously it does happen, a really good post by Thai at Heart (#3) outlines what can happen in the background. Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I personally can attest to business practices in this country, whether it be through quotations, purchase orders, inspections, after sales, etc which would be regarded as normal anywhere in this world. Unfortunately these are boring, normal and therefore never heard about or presented for comment.................

Edited August 10, 2013 by chrisinth

[i claudius]

Even my wife says its corrupt.

Snap ,so does mine , here in Pattaya you only have to look at the traffic lights in beach road that were opened with such a fanfare and have never worked as someone else said about the duck theory, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ,then its probably a duck.

[i claudius]

Even my wife says its corrupt.

Snap ,so does mine , here in Pattaya you only have to look at the traffic lights in beach road that were opened with such a fanfare and have never worked as someone else said about the duck theory, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ,then its probably a duck.

[Thai at Heart]

When we read, see or hear everyday, whether it be the newspapers, television or the internet forums of all the bad points of the Thai business principles, it is a natural course that the majority of peoples minds will be, ironically, corrupted to expect the worst from every transaction that is done in this country.

Bad news is good news!

Obviously it does happen, a really good post by Thai at Heart (#3) outlines what can happen in the background. Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I personally can attest to business practices in this country, whether it be through quotations, purchase orders, inspections, after sales, etc which would be regarded as normal anywhere in this world. Unfortunately these are boring, normal and therefore never heard about or presented for comment.................

The thing is very simple to me though. It's about whether people see it as utterly normal about the way they make their living.

Here it has become completely ingrained and in 99% of cases goes completely unpunished. I may be utopian, but normally the majority are honest and the dishonest are a minority. In certain organisations, customs, police, local government, etc, I have a feeling that corrupt versus incorrupt individuals is approaching 50:50 maybe even worse.

To move in ones government career here you pay a little every day, just to stay in your job, let alone pay a lot to move on. It is a cancer.

[chrisinth]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

I would argue that that isn't corruption, just someone breaking the law for smoking where they shouldn't or littering by throwing their butt on the floor instead of putting it in a bin.

You don't have to read Thai to understand the signs.............

[Thai at Heart]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

I would argue that that isn't corruption, just someone breaking the law for smoking where they shouldn't or littering by throwing their butt on the floor instead of putting it in a bin.

You don't have to read Thai to understand the signs.............

But instead of continually fining people why don't they put up some bins or ashtrays?

[benalibina]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

I would argue that that isn't corruption, just someone breaking the law for smoking where they shouldn't or littering by throwing their butt on the floor instead of putting it in a bin.

You don't have to read Thai to understand the signs.............

But instead of continually fining people why don't they put up some bins or ashtrays?

What a silly question from such an intelligent person as you ! You really do not know ?

[richard_smith237]

With a number of Thai friends in positions affording them in depth knowledge on such subjects my question is rather: Why are so many Foreigners to Thailand so naive as to the horrific depths of corruption in Thailand (i.e. officials involved in trafficking, drugs etc).

Corruption is endemic throughout society, everyone hates it when it affects them, supports it when it makes things easier and does nothing about it the rest of the time... It's a part of life in Thailand, a part of life no one appears to care to do anything about.

The consequences of corruption to a nation are obvious, the stunted growth and development are clear to see. But, to suggest that corruption at deeper levels in the Developed world does not exist would be hugely naive, its just more cleverly hidden, or rather it proceeds in Thailand and other developing nations with a carelessness, normality and openness often shocking to visitors.

Regarding Evidence:

I don't need to go into space to know the earth isn't flat. In much the same but less extreme manner, I don't need to see evidence to understand that those who tell me of the extreme levels of corruption in Thailand are not stretching reality, particularly when everyday corruption is so privation and visible. Its hardly a great step of the imagination to recognise that the corruption we see is the thin end of the wedge.

[Riley'sLife]

The evidence I have is not going to be written about here as it would readily identify both myself and others, but I will say that I have both anecdotal and direct personal experience of almost every form of corrupt practice. Frankly, it is unbelievable that such a deep and ingrained level of corruption and illegality could exist, but it does.

The reasons, I believe, are a result of the historic mandala and suzerainty systems that have existed in this part of the world from time immemorial, and still prevail today. If you are part of a family with a “name”, it is impossible to avoid at least seeing the systems in action. Favours here..... respect given......respect received there......help sought here.......help given.....Huge Face achieved......wash-rinse-repeat!!! It is a complex system, but everyone involved knows the unwritten rules.

As westerners we find the system abhorrent and corrupt. However, it is part of the human condition and corruption exists worldwide. It is more evident here because of society’s acquiescence and this acceptance means there is less need to be creative in the covering up of corrupt practices.

Not all Thais are corrupt. Many are not in a position to gain from corruption although they are inextricably bound by it. How difficult is it to refuse 500 Baht from an election candidate for example? The same goes for everyone, but the amounts of money involved will be far greater and sometimes astronomical.

In my view, the pragmatism of Thais and the need to maintain Face at all costs means it will never be eliminated, as it is far too pervasive and ingrained in the culture. As Farang we should learn how it all works, but not get involved. Just accept it, Thailand is a Kleptocracy.

[Gsxrnz]

When we read, see or hear everyday, whether it be the newspapers, television or the internet forums of all the bad points of the Thai business principles, it is a natural course that the majority of peoples minds will be, ironically, corrupted to expect the worst from every transaction that is done in this country.

Bad news is good news!

Obviously it does happen, a really good post by Thai at Heart (#3) outlines what can happen in the background. Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I personally can attest to business practices in this country, whether it be through quotations, purchase orders, inspections, after sales, etc which would be regarded as normal anywhere in this world. Unfortunately these are boring, normal and therefore never heard about or presented for comment.................

The thing is very simple to me though. It's about whether people see it as utterly normal about the way they make their living.

Here it has become completely ingrained and in 99% of cases goes completely unpunished. I may be utopian, but normally the majority are honest and the dishonest are a minority. In certain organisations, customs, police, local government, etc, I have a feeling that corrupt versus incorrupt individuals is approaching 50:50 maybe even worse.

To move in ones government career here you pay a little every day, just to stay in your job, let alone pay a lot to move on. It is a cancer.

I think your 50/50 is well off the mark. I'm not saying all officials are corrupt all of the time, but I would say that virtually without exception, every official is corrupt some of the time.

If anybody can find an official that is not corrupt at least part of the time, then that official is destined for nirvana and probably a sainthood.

[Sayonarax]

Is this sheep for real? Your first day in the big kok?

[geriatrickid]

Perhaps the solution then is to have the farang community nominate a group of its most prominent members, to run things for the Thais.

There are so many qualified foreigners to draw upon, aren't there? They could be recruited from the boiler room operators, the developers of poor quality condominiums, the ATM thieves, the unqualified teachers, the sexpats that sit on the barstools of the nation's beer bars, the failures who have fled to Thailand, the pedos that hang out in Boyztown Pattaya, the hotel operators who mistreat and exploit their staff the pensioners who know everything, but who never accomplished anything, etc.

There are tens of millions of honest Thais, just as there are a great many foreigners who are decent and respectable. It is easier to fixate on the negative than it is to consider the positive.

[simple1]

OP: The Thai media reports on Thai law enforcement agencies staff actively colluding with the likes of human traffickers for profit, police candidates paying up to 300k baht to cheat on their exams, police officers involved in armed robberies in order to pay for their promotions etc etc. The following really underlines the endemic corruption throughout Thailand; even allowing for sampling errors its a truly sorry picture.

"Although the total score for Thailand for absence of corruption is a 0.41 (1 being the best), which is already rather poor, the specific subcategory '2.4 Government officials in the legislative branch do not use public office for private gain' scored a 0.06 http://worldjusticep...ountry/thailand. Of all the countries looked at, only Ukraine managed to score lower than Thailand".

Edited August 10, 2013 by simple1

[benalibina]

Perhaps the solution then is to have the farang community nominate a group of its most prominent members, to run things for the Thais.

There are so many qualified foreigners to draw upon, aren't there? They could be recruited from the boiler room operators, the developers of poor quality condominiums, the ATM thieves, the unqualified teachers, the sexpats that sit on the barstools of the nation's beer bars, the failures who have fled to Thailand, the pedos that hang out in Boyztown Pattaya, the hotel operators who mistreat and exploit their staff the pensioners who know everything, but who never accomplished anything, etc.

There are tens of millions of honest Thais, just as there are a great many foreigners who are decent and respectable. It is easier to fixate on the negative than it is to consider the positive.

Tens of millions ???? Included the dead ones of the last 3 centuries as well 1 assumes ! Be real please. Being honest, well......... you must have selected your circles very good.

About the foreigners, my compliments that you use that word instead of farang, what a % is a great many ?

Edited August 10, 2013 by benalibina

[Gsxrnz]

Perhaps the solution then is to have the farang community nominate a group of its most prominent members, to run things for the Thais.

There are so many qualified foreigners to draw upon, aren't there? They could be recruited from the boiler room operators, the developers of poor quality condominiums, the ATM thieves, the unqualified teachers, the sexpats that sit on the barstools of the nation's beer bars, the failures who have fled to Thailand, the pedos that hang out in Boyztown Pattaya, the hotel operators who mistreat and exploit their staff the pensioners who know everything, but who never accomplished anything, etc.

There are tens of millions of honest Thais, just as there are a great many foreigners who are decent and respectable. It is easier to fixate on the negative than it is to consider the positive.

Which sub-category are you in?

[andrew]

OP: The Thai media reports on Thai law enforcement agencies staff actively colluding with the likes of human traffickers for profit, police candidates paying up to 300k baht to cheat on their exams, police officers involved in armed robberies in order to pay for their promotions etc etc. The following really underlines the endemic corruption throughout Thailand; even allowing for sampling errors its a truly sorry picture.

"Although the total score for Thailand for absence of corruption is a 0.41 (1 being the best), which is already rather poor, the specific subcategory '2.4 Government officials in the legislative branch do not use public office for private gain' scored a 0.06 http://worldjusticep...ountry/thailand. Of all the countries looked at, only Ukraine managed to score lower than Thailand".

You're making the mistake of thinking that the Thai police are ... well ... police.

They're not. Sure, they dress like policemen. They look like policemen. And they wear a badge which says they are policemen.

But they're not policemen.

You just have to accept this. I actually don't know what ought to be the correct name for Thai police.

Perhaps you should think of them as a sort of self-serving, government-sanctioned mafia.

But never assume that a Thai policeman is a policeman.

[robblok]

Perhaps the solution then is to have the farang community nominate a group of its most prominent members, to run things for the Thais.

There are so many qualified foreigners to draw upon, aren't there? They could be recruited from the boiler room operators, the developers of poor quality condominiums, the ATM thieves, the unqualified teachers, the sexpats that sit on the barstools of the nation's beer bars, the failures who have fled to Thailand, the pedos that hang out in Boyztown Pattaya, the hotel operators who mistreat and exploit their staff the pensioners who know everything, but who never accomplished anything, etc.

There are tens of millions of honest Thais, just as there are a great many foreigners who are decent and respectable. It is easier to fixate on the negative than it is to consider the positive.

While I agree there are many honest Thais and honest farangs corruption is important enough to focus on. Unfortunately we can't change it and for Thais its also real hard to change as a lot them (mainly red supporters) are too brainwashed by their leaders.

If there was a democrat government corruption would be less. However neither government really does something against corruption (unless its corruption they can prove on their enemies). There is actually no choice for they Thai people so they just vote for their crook. Honest Thais have a hard time surviving in politics and there are not enough of them.

Now its getting worse and worse as the anti corruption agencies are loosing power and all kind of agencies who are supposed to operate independently from the government are being forced and infiltrated by the red cancer.(everyone knows how they are trying to take all the independent bodies down) It would be step in the right way to have honest Thais in those anti corruption agencies that go after both democrat and PTP and have the power to do so.

The percentage of corruption (that has been paid per project) has been gone up and up in the last 15 years guess who was in power most.

But like I said before there is no real alternative for the Thais, to get in politics you need money and most want to make good on that money and that is done by corruption. Its hard to find good honest politicians.

[Indrid Cold]

Off course Thailand is corrupt, what country is not?

[simple1]

OP: The Thai media reports on Thai law enforcement agencies staff actively colluding with the likes of human traffickers for profit, police candidates paying up to 300k baht to cheat on their exams, police officers involved in armed robberies in order to pay for their promotions etc etc. The following really underlines the endemic corruption throughout Thailand; even allowing for sampling errors its a truly sorry picture.

"Although the total score for Thailand for absence of corruption is a 0.41 (1 being the best), which is already rather poor, the specific subcategory '2.4 Government officials in the legislative branch do not use public office for private gain' scored a 0.06 http://worldjusticep...ountry/thailand. Of all the countries looked at, only Ukraine managed to score lower than Thailand".

You're making the mistake of thinking that the Thai police are ... well ... police.

They're not. Sure, they dress like policemen. They look like policemen. And they wear a badge which says they are policemen.

But they're not policemen.

You just have to accept this. I actually don't know what ought to be the correct name for Thai police.

Perhaps you should think of them as a sort of self-serving, government-sanctioned mafia.

But never assume that a Thai policeman is a policeman.

Nope, I live in Thailand & well aware of the many failures of ethics within the RTP. However, I have had dealing with two RTP who were ethical and did not require an incentive "to do the right thing", rare, but they do exist.

Edited August 10, 2013 by simple1

[HeijoshinCool]

How corrupt is it here?

I let a Thai use my computer for five minutes, and now the hard drive is corrupted.

[chrisinth]

When we read, see or hear everyday, whether it be the newspapers, television or the internet forums of all the bad points of the Thai business principles, it is a natural course that the majority of peoples minds will be, ironically, corrupted to expect the worst from every transaction that is done in this country.

Bad news is good news!

Obviously it does happen, a really good post by Thai at Heart (#3) outlines what can happen in the background. Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I personally can attest to business practices in this country, whether it be through quotations, purchase orders, inspections, after sales, etc which would be regarded as normal anywhere in this world. Unfortunately these are boring, normal and therefore never heard about or presented for comment.................

The thing is very simple to me though. It's about whether people see it as utterly normal about the way they make their living.

Here it has become completely ingrained and in 99% of cases goes completely unpunished. I may be utopian, but normally the majority are honest and the dishonest are a minority. In certain organisations, customs, police, local government, etc, I have a feeling that corrupt versus incorrupt individuals is approaching 50:50 maybe even worse.

To move in ones government career here you pay a little every day, just to stay in your job, let alone pay a lot to move on. It is a cancer.

Just re-reading the OP, your comments are correct. I was basing my views on the whole of Thailand, when we come to governmental organizations, the percentage line shifts dramatically.

[chrisinth]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

I would argue that that isn't corruption, just someone breaking the law for smoking where they shouldn't or littering by throwing their butt on the floor instead of putting it in a bin.

You don't have to read Thai to understand the signs.............

But instead of continually fining people why don't they put up some bins or ashtrays?

Yep, maybe it would help. As long as it wasn't beneath them to walk a couple of metres to put their cigarettes out. I am a smoker myself, and to date have never been stupid enough to throw a butt away in an urban environment. Works for me.