Why are we subjected to 90 reporting?

[Soutpeel]

Point of order:

@ Sustento Reply to Post No 5

I'm not speaking for America,but the UK allows Spouses into the Country on 2 year and 3 months Settlement Visas,and they never have to check in to the UKBA,Home Office,or Police,for the whole term,of residence,which in general leads on to permanent residence into the UK,whereby the nearest they will ever get to a Check in,is when they pick up their Citizenship Certificate,and later on British Passport Application Interview!

In answer to your question,providing the Immigration conditions are complied with,it's pretty straight forward,for most applicants to obtain a UK Visa.

IMHO excessive check ins,are xenophobic nonsense,!

Edit for spelling error!

Your information on UK settlement visas is out of date.

Initial visa; valid 33 months. Current fee £851.

After 30 months in UK apply for Further Leave to Remain; one of the requirements being proof of where you have been living for the entire period and that your British partner/spouse has been living there too. Current fee £578 by post or £953 in person

After a further 30 months (5 years in total) apply for Indefinite leave to Remain. Again proof of where you have been living, and that your British spouse/partner has been living there with you, for the entire period is required. Current fee £1051 by post or £1426 in person.

Financial requirement to be met at each stage; currently an income of at least £18,600 p.a (more if children are included in the application), cash savings of at least £62,500 (more if children are included in the application) (except at ILR where the minimum savings are currently £42,500, plus extra for children included in the application) or an acceptable combination of income and savings.

Don't forget the English test at the initial visa stage and the harder English and Life in the UK tests for ILR.

How many expats living in Thailand could still do so if they had to speak Thai, I wonder. Maybe that's why so few apply for PR?

And I do agree that at the end of the 5 years, that's it; unless you then move to live outside the UK. In which case the appropriate visa will be required to enter the UK again.

Unless you do naturalise as British; current cost £874.

But, as others have said, if you want to live in a foreign country then you have to abide by their rules.

Thanks for the update.

The thread is about 90 day check ins,which are not needed for those in the UK on a Spouse/Settlement Visa.

correct but think your missing his point, fact is Thailand immigration could make things a whole heap more difficult to live in Thailand if they so choose to do so...for me if the only requirement are getting a visa or extension renewed annually and handing in a bit of paper every 90 days to give an address to plods....these are easy to comply with, think people are getting off pretty easy...

As I have stated before....be careful what you wish for...

[samran]

Boo hoo, can't be done by post. Slip the local messenger boy a few hundred and they can do it for you.

[ChrisB87]

I don't think, "they could make it more difficult for us if they wanted to" is really an argument here.

The OP has asked a good question. Sure every government/immigration could make things more difficult for immigrants, but why the 90 day report?

Most countries don't require this and it would be nice if we didn't have to do it (especially since it serves little purpose and they don't care much anyway)

[ubonjoe]

 

I wonder what would happen if you mailed the TM.47 form just the same, since it is a right granted by the Immigration Act and an immigration office has no authority to overrule this law. The first time I would send it with a covering letter, in Thai language, saying something like this:

 

In compliance with section 37, paragraph 5 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 and the information shown on the Immigration Bureau web page www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=90days I hereby enclose the following documents:

• Photocopy of passport pages with following pages

  - front page showing name / surname / Passport No., ect.

  - current visa

  - last entry stamp of immigration

  - last extension of stay

• Photocopy of departure card TM.6, front and back
• Receipt for last notification of staying over 90 days
• Completely filled in and signed notification form TM.47
• Envelope with 10 Baht stamp affixed and my return address for your office to send back the lower part of form TM. 47 after having received my notification.

Come to think about it, I would save that Thai covering letter on my computer and enclose it with every TM.47. I would make sure to send it always by registered letter and keep the postal receipt.

Good point Maestro.

How about printing out immigration act in Thai and hi-light 37 paragraph five.

Perhaps if everybody denied their mail in rights at the various offices that don't allow it did this. I think it might get some attention.

[Soutpeel]

I don't think, "they could make it more difficult for us if they wanted to" is really an argument here.

The OP has asked a good question. Sure every government/immigration could make things more difficult for immigrants, but why the 90 day report?

Most countries don't require this and it would be nice if we didn't have to do it (especially since it serves little purpose and they don't care much anyway

first off your are not an immigrant in Thailand, Thailand doesnt have a legalised immigration/migration program per se,

I exlude PR from this simply because in almost all cases someone is already present in Thailand when PR is granted, unlike countires which have immigration/migration programs...such as Oz or UK were you apply for immigration up front before arriving and you have to "qualify" and this is the reason most countries dont require things like 90 day reporting, because someone staying long term has typically been"qualifed and vetted" before they arrive.

so you are comparing Thailands system to a completely different type system....Typically foreigners coming to Thailand are not coming as legal immigrants/migrants

The 90 day report does serve a purpose in that they know where all the "long term tourists" are in Thailand. Could the system be better ? of course, doing this on-line would serve the same purpose, of course people could say, you could put in false details, but you can this under the current paper system as well.

As has been suggested, an foreigners ID card would most likely be the best solution, but the current system is what we got and those is the rules, and not a hard one to comply with hardly an inconvienience...

[bbbbooboo]

The word "the alien" in Thai legislation might explain it all?

[Soutpeel]

The word "the alien" in Thai legislation might explain it all?

The word "alien" in Thai, US, British and many other country's immigration legislation does explain it all....

[OJAS]

I wonder what would happen if you mailed the TM.47 form just the same, since it is a right granted by the Immigration Act and an immigration office has no authority to overrule this law. The first time I would send it with a covering letter, in Thai language, saying something like this:

In compliance with section 37, paragraph 5 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 and the information shown on the Immigration Bureau web page www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=90days I hereby enclose the following documents:

• Photocopy of passport pages with following pages

  - front page showing name / surname / Passport No., ect.

  - current visa

  - last entry stamp of immigration

  - last extension of stay

• Photocopy of departure card TM.6, front and back
• Receipt for last notification of staying over 90 days
• Completely filled in and signed notification form TM.47
• Envelope with 10 Baht stamp affixed and my return address for your office to send back the lower part of form TM. 47 after having received my notification.

Come to think about it, I would save that Thai covering letter on my computer and enclose it with every TM.47. I would make sure to send it always by registered letter and keep the postal receipt.

Good point Maestro.

How about printing out immigration act in Thai and hi-light 37 paragraph five.

Perhaps if everybody denied their mail in rights at the various offices that don't allow it did this. I think it might get some attention.

Hmm, I wonder whether it might even be useful for those of us whose offices do accept mailed-in reports to include such a letter with our latest report on a precautionary basis, just in case our envelope is opened by an IO who got out of bed the wrong side that day.

Edited August 30, 2013 by OJAS

[ChrisB87]

I don't think, "they could make it more difficult for us if they wanted to" is really an argument here.

The OP has asked a good question. Sure every government/immigration could make things more difficult for immigrants, but why the 90 day report?

Most countries don't require this and it would be nice if we didn't have to do it (especially since it serves little purpose and they don't care much anyway

first off your are not an immigrant in Thailand, Thailand doesnt have a legalised immigration/migration program per se,

I exlude PR from this simply because in almost all cases someone is already present in Thailand when PR is granted, unlike countires which have immigration/migration programs...such as Oz or UK were you apply for immigration up front before arriving and you have to "qualify" and this is the reason most countries dont require things like 90 day reporting, because someone staying long term has typically been"qualifed and vetted" before they arrive.

so you are comparing Thailands system to a completely different type system....Typically foreigners coming to Thailand are not coming as legal immigrants/migrants

The 90 day report does serve a purpose in that they know where all the "long term tourists" are in Thailand. Could the system be better ? of course, doing this on-line would serve the same purpose, of course people could say, you could put in false details, but you can this under the current paper system as well.

As has been suggested, an foreigners ID card would most likely be the best solution, but the current system is what we got and those is the rules, and not a hard one to comply with hardly an inconvienience...

I stand corrected. Enjoy!

However, i don't think i compared Thailand's immigration system to Oz or the UK.

What about other countries? I am no expert....does China require this? Malaysia? Indonesia? Vietnam?

Edited August 30, 2013 by ChrisB87

[7by7]

The word "the alien" in Thai legislation might explain it all?

The word "alien" in Thai, US, British and many other country's immigration legislation does explain it all....

Indeed; it seems that some members here do not know the meaning of the word 'alien' and appear to view it as some sort of insult!

From Dictionary .com;-

al·ien [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn]

noun

1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen ).

2. a foreigner.

3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.

4. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

adjective

5. residing under a government or in a country other than that of one's birth without having or obtaining the status of citizenship there.

6. belonging or relating to aliens: alien property.

7. unlike one's own; strange; not belonging to one: alien speech.

8. adverse; hostile; opposed (usually followed by to or from ): ideas alien to modern thinking.

9. extraterrestrial

It is obvious, to all but the paranoid, that in this context it is definitions 1, 2 and 5 which apply.

[Soutpeel]

The word "the alien" in Thai legislation might explain it all?

The word "alien" in Thai, US, British and many other country's immigration legislation does explain it all....

Indeed; it seems that some members here do not know the meaning of the word 'alien' and appear to view it as some sort of insult!

From Dictionary .com;-

al·ien [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn]

noun

1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen ).

2. a foreigner.

3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.

4. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

adjective

5. residing under a government or in a country other than that of one's birth without having or obtaining the status of citizenship there.

6. belonging or relating to aliens: alien property.

7. unlike one's own; strange; not belonging to one: alien speech.

8. adverse; hostile; opposed (usually followed by to or from ): ideas alien to modern thinking.

9. extraterrestrial

It is obvious, to all but the paranoid, that in this context it is definitions 1, 2 and 5 which apply.

Based on some of the farangs I have come across over the years, one suspects number 4 may even apply in some cases...

[jrtmedic]

"Based on some of the farangs I have come across over the years, one suspects number 4 may even apply in some cases."

Maybe not "extraterrestrial " but certainly "spaced out" !

[jpeg]

Just what we need another topic complaining about 90 day reporting. Do a search and you will find hundreds of them.

It is required by the immigration act of 1979 that is probably not going to change any time soon. So all you can do is live with it.

And just to prove the inconsistency/capriciousness of any 'law' here, this particular bit of silly hoop jumping was unenforced up until Taksin got in and decided to make a big show of crowd pleasing xenophobia, if any more were needed.

I never had to report to smirking imm in all the years before he was installed.

[55Jay]

The short answer to the original post is that thems the rules.like it or not.In addition to that,you don't have to attend as it can be done by post.

"...you don't have to attend as it can be done by post."

It can not be done by mail in the region where I reside (see: TV thread at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/557382-90-day-report-procedures/)

This just increases the daily chaos at this undersized and understaffed immigration office in one of Thailand largest cities that has an equally large expat community.

90 reporting by mail was an excellent idea. No wonder they decided to cancel the program -- my guess...it was too efficient.

I wonder what would happen if you mailed the TM.47 form just the same, since it is a right granted by the Immigration Act and an immigration office has no authority to overrule this law. The first time I would send it with a covering letter, in Thai language, saying something like this:

In compliance with section 37, paragraph 5 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 and the information shown on the Immigration Bureau web page www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=90days I hereby enclose the following documents:

1. Photocopy of passport pages with following pages

   - front page showing name / surname / Passport No., ect.

   - current visa

   - last entry stamp of immigration

   - last extension of stay

2. Photocopy of departure card TM.6, front and back
3. Receipt for last notification of staying over 90 days
4. Completely filled in and signed notification form TM.47
5. Envelope with 10 Baht stamp affixed and my return address for your office to send back the lower part of form TM. 47 after having received my notification.

Come to think about it, I would save that Thai covering letter on my computer and enclose it with every TM.47. I would make sure to send it always by registered letter and keep the postal receipt.

Could work... but for some reason, a part of me thinks the "here's your own law, in your face" approach might backfire. I could be wrong though. Let us know how you get on with the effort, might lead to something bigger! Whether that bigger is better or not, guess we'll have to wait and see.

[ubonjoe]

Just what we need another topic complaining about 90 day reporting. Do a search and you will find hundreds of them.

It is required by the immigration act of 1979 that is probably not going to change any time soon. So all you can do is live with it.

 

And just to prove the inconsistency/capriciousness of any 'law' here, this particular bit of silly hoop jumping was unenforced up until Taksin got in and decided to make a big show of crowd pleasing xenophobia, if any more were needed. 

 

I never had to report to smirking imm in all the years before he was installed.

Completely wrong and biased post.

They were enforcing 90 day reports as early as 1996 or it could of been earlier.

[jrtmedic]

Jepeg

Try working/living in some parts of the Middle East where your passport will be removed from your possession and replaced with an iqāmah which the religious police will take great delight in examining at every opportunity !

Thailand is easy ----

[lopburi3]

Flame and reply removed.

[Arkady]

I think there is a historical reason for this like many things to do with immigration. Immigrants were historically controlled by regulations requiring them to register with their local police station and get an alien book. They were required to re-register themselves in a new police precint, if they moved for any significant period of time. Tourist visas are only for three months, so that just leaves foreigners on Imm-B visas and other temporary residents on various types of extension of stay who are otherwise unaccounted for after 90 days in country. Enter 90 day reporting and all foreigners are now theoretically accounted for.

Even if you live in Thailand for 20 plus years as a foreigner and have a Thai wife, children and grandchildren, you have to get into the mindset that you are a temporary visitor, unless you become a permanent resident and then all becomes clear. The fact that PR is no longer available to immigrants on arrival at the docks, as long as they could prove they had a marketable trade and didn't have TB, doesn't alter the mindset.

Since they decided to reinforce this archaic regulation they have retroactively dreamed up the justification that it they are helping out foreign embassies by keeping track of their nationals, although I can't remember any foreign governments ever saying they wanted this service. Probably their own justification is the increasing numbers of foreign criminals hanging out in Thailand, who are of course welcome as long as they pay off the police, only commit crimes against other foreigners and don't feature in the international press.

[jrtmedic]

lopburi3

Thanks for removing that !

[jrtmedic]

Arkady

"Now they have dreamed up the justification that it they are helping out foreign embassies by keeping track of their nationals, although I can't remember any foreign governments ever saying they wanted this service."

I would be VERY interested in being able to view the official source of that assertion.

[impulse]

Here's a thought.

Try getting a US or UK visa for your Thai wife and step-kid. (and your Thai self if that's your nationality)

Then have someone try to get permission to enter Thailand for their British wife and step-kid.

Later, come back and compare and contrast...

One can take months, with no degree of certainty.

The other can be done on arrival...

90 day reports is the trade-off. Great trade for some, a pain in the butt for others.

Edited August 30, 2013 by impulse

[GarryP]

I thought this scheme was introduced during Taksin's first term as PM in the 90's. I could be mistaken. In any case, when it was first introduced I just ignored it and never made the 90 day reports. It was only when I did my annual extension and a stamp put in my passport telling me to do the 90 day report that I started doing it. I could no longer plead ignorance. First time I was fined Baht 2k , but have kept up with it since. About 4 years now.

It does not seem to serve any purpose but give officials something to do. I had lived in my last abode for 11 years and have lived in my current home for 2 years, so it is not as if I move around a lot. It would make much more sense to make a record of your current address and only update the record at immigration when you move. But that would be too obvious or simple.

[cardholder]

I thought this scheme was introduced during Taksin's first term as PM in the 90's. I could be mistaken. In any case, when it was first introduced I just ignored it and never made the 90 day reports. It was only when I did my annual extension and a stamp put in my passport telling me to do the 90 day report that I started doing it. I could no longer plead ignorance. First time I was fined Baht 2k , but have kept up with it since. About 4 years now.

It does not seem to serve any purpose but give officials something to do. I had lived in my last abode for 11 years and have lived in my current home for 2 years, so it is not as if I move around a lot. It would make much more sense to make a record of your current address and only update the record at immigration when you move. But that would be too obvious or simple.

Or even, just report to a local police station.

There must be an online Register of Aliens.

[Eleodel]

Dude, when I lived in the US as an Alien (oh yeah) the red tape was a niiIIIIIghtmare - nothing as friendly as the Thai 'ask how you like Thai food' then stamping your papers.

I feel very lucky to be able to live in Thailand with so little hassle. I know what foreigners go through in France, and humiliation is purposely designed into the process. Each country creates its immigration rules to make you feel more or less welcome.

Honestly, I can't imagine my own country accomodating foreigners to the extent that road signs would be in their language (that reminds us of German occupation), menus, store equipment etc etc. I find Thailand remarkably equanimous in that respect!

I feel a bit worse for my Burmese neighbors who have been here 20 years, have a kid who was born here - and still have to go to Immigration every 90 days. But I don't see them complaining...

[connda]

Here's a thought.

Try getting a US or UK visa for your Thai wife and step-kid. (and your Thai self if that's your nationality)

Then have someone try to get permission to enter Thailand for their British wife and step-kid.

Later, come back and compare and contrast...

One can take months, with no degree of certainty.

The other can be done on arrival...

90 day reports is the trade-off. Great trade for some, a pain in the butt for others.

The contrast is, once you're in the US (can't speak for the UK), you are in. No reporting to anyone, and if you want, you can start working toward naturalization and citizenship. Also if you die while in the US (and I believe this is applicable to the UK) there is a provision for "Continued right of residence" for your non-native spouse that allows the spouse to continue to live and work in country and eventually apply for permanent residence / citizenship.

Come to Thailand, and unless you are wealthy and connected, you're probably going to stay a 'visitor', 'guest', 'walking-ATM machine' until you decide to leave or die in country. The ultimate irony would be immigration attempting to collect 'over-stay' fines from your spouse after you've been deceased for a couple of years. However, if my Thai wife dies before me, there is no provision for "Continued right of residence". It's "find a different visa or get you buns out of Thailand -- we don't care that you've been supporting a family and the Thai economy for 15 or 20 year -- get out". Personally, I think that is one of the coldest and most xenophobic aspects of living here. Compassionate Thailand? I'd have to question that. Honestly, if my wife dies before me, I'm leaving. I stay in Thailand because I'm married to my Thailand national wife and my wife has no desire to move to the US.

There are things I love about Thailand, and there are things I truly dislike -- Thai immigration policy is near the top of my dislike list, maybe one down from machete wielding taxicab drivers.

[impulse]

Here's a thought.

Try getting a US or UK visa for your Thai wife and step-kid. (and your Thai self if that's your nationality)

Then have someone try to get permission to enter Thailand for their British wife and step-kid.

Later, come back and compare and contrast...

One can take months, with no degree of certainty.

The other can be done on arrival...

90 day reports is the trade-off. Great trade for some, a pain in the butt for others.

The contrast is, once you're in the US (can't speak for the UK), you are in. No reporting to anyone, and if you want, you can start working toward naturalization and citizenship. Also if you die while in the US (and I believe this is applicable to the UK) there is a provision for "Continued right of residence" for your non-native spouse that allows the spouse to continue to live and work in country and eventually apply for permanent residence / citizenship.

Come to Thailand, and unless you are wealthy and connected, you're probably going to stay a 'visitor', 'guest', 'walking-ATM machine' until you decide to leave or die in country. The ultimate irony would be immigration attempting to collect 'over-stay' fines from your spouse after you've been deceased for a couple of years. However, if my Thai wife dies before me, there is no provision for "Continued right of residence". It's "find a different visa or get you buns out of Thailand -- we don't care that you've been supporting a family and the Thai economy for 15 or 20 year -- get out". Personally, I think that is one of the coldest and most xenophobic aspects of living here. Compassionate Thailand? I'd have to question that. Honestly, if my wife dies before me, I'm leaving. I stay in Thailand because I'm married to my Thailand national wife and my wife has no desire to move to the US.

There are things I love about Thailand, and there are things I truly dislike -- Thai immigration policy is near the top of my dislike list, maybe one down from machete wielding taxicab drivers.

Not trying to be a smartass, but how do you answer to the post above yours?

Dude, when I lived in the US as an Alien (oh yeah) the red tape was a niiIIIIIghtmare - nothing as friendly as the Thai 'ask how you like Thai food' then stamping your papers.

I suspect most of us think it's easy for a foreigner living in our home country because we have never lived as foreigners in our home country. Scratch golf looked pretty easy, too. Until I tried it.

Edited August 30, 2013 by impulse

[ubonjoe]

I thought this scheme was introduced during Taksin's first term as PM in the 90's. I could be mistaken. In any case, when it was first introduced I just ignored it and never made the 90 day reports. It was only when I did my annual extension and a stamp put in my passport telling me to do the 90 day report that I started doing it. I could no longer plead ignorance. First time I was fined Baht 2k , but have kept up with it since. About 4 years now.

 

It does not seem to serve any purpose but give officials something to do. I had lived in my last abode for 11 years and have lived in my current home for 2 years, so it is not as if I move around a lot. It would make much more sense to make a record of your current address and only update the record at immigration when you move. But that would be too obvious or simple.

It was 2001 when he first became PM. Then again in 2005.

[khrab]

When I do my 90-days I apply for a re-entry permit at the same time.

And this brings me to another question:

Why do we have to buy a re-entry permit (to leave and reenter) when we stay on an extention anyway?

Maybe the word "buy" is the answer.

[jrtmedic]

You dont "need" a re-entry permit to leave. You are welcome to go at any time!

If you leave without a re-entry permit your "extension" ends !

A re-entry permit protects your "permit to stay date" in the event of your having to leave the country.

You do not have to buy one !

Up to you as is said !

[ubonjoe]

When I do my 90-days I apply for a re-entry permit at the same time.

And this brings me to another question:

Why do we have to buy a re-entry permit (to leave and reenter) when we stay on an extention anyway?

Maybe the word "buy" is the answer.

The same reason you have to do 90 day reports. They are required by the immigration act of 1979.

In a way though they serve as being able to show something equal to a visa when travel to prove you can enter the country. Without one how easy would it be to show and explain about your permit to stay.

If permission to re-enter was not called for in the act they could put one stamp stating you were allowed to remain in and enter to xxxx date.

Edited August 31, 2013 by ubonjoe