Flight TG669 skids off runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport

[Jangot]

How many of the people posting on this thread have first hand knowledge or are personally involved in the aviation industry? If you could raise your hands we'd know whose posts to ignore and whose to give credence to.

I don't think so. gchurch gave his credentials, experience, and a reasoned opinion. Result - he got ridiculed. Knowledgeable professionals are best to stay out of this kind of forum rubbishfest.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

More interesting news and tidbits here in the latest thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/

"BEFORE LANDING, the pilot announced that the plane would be parked a fair way from the terminal building because the runway was under construction. Everything was normal while landing, then there was a sudden brake."

Kosit Suvinitjit, Former Media of Media executive and former Bangkok gubernatorial candidate

And then... this post from another member here:

Much more interesting stuff spoken by ordinary passengers on TV news this morning. Seems although some of the cabin crew are required to leave the plane via the chutes first to 'direct operations' at ground level, most of the cabin crew jumped out first and some effectively ran away from the scene. Passengers where not told to leave hand luggage behind and many took theirs with them causing injury to other passengers on the way out. People were not told which exits to use and a degree of panic was the order of things. Most injuries occured by proper evacuation procedures not being carried out and people following each other down the chutes too close to each other and crashing into each other.

One good aspect was that passengers were prepared to speak up about what really happened and not try to cover everything up with silence.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/#entry6808475

And from another TV member who apparently worked in the past as a flight attendant:

That is awfully sad that crew members were running away and from such a minor accident. When I was a flight attendant, only the first officer at our airline was to leave the aircraft first to assist on the ground. Cabin crew were to assign "helper" passengers to go down the slide first and assist other passengers off the aircraft. Flight attendants were to stay on the aircraft to assist passengers until the "fire was too hot, the smoke too thick or the water too high".

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/#entry6808791

A lot of questions emerging here:

Did the pilot/cabin crew know something was amiss prior to the landing but land anyway?

Was there some issue with the runway at the time of the landing?

Why are the passengers on the plane publicly complaining about the performance of the cabin crew?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And again, as a FAA Certified A&P mechanic with over 25 years experience, yours and their opinions is based on ignorance. But please do expand on your experience and qualifications?

If you guys want to continue to appear foolish, then by all means keep putting those fingers on the keyboard.

I'm a professional in public relations, which is the issue I'm chiefly addressing regading THAI.

I'm assuming a mechanic is not an expert in public relations. Obviously we're talking at different levels here.

Edited September 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[beechguy]

And again, as a FAA Certified A&P mechanic with over 25 years experience, yours and their opinions is based on ignorance. But please do expand on your experience and qualifications?

If you guys want to continue to appear foolish, then by all means keep putting those fingers on the keyboard.

I'm a professional in public relations, which is the issue I'm chiefly addressing regading THAI.

I'm assuming a mechanic is not an expert in public relations. Obviously we're talking at different levels here.

So you don't really care about the facts, just the spin.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The "spin" helps determine how THAI Air is portrayed here domestically and around the world to the public at large.

And if you think that doesn't matter, whether the spin is valid or unfair, you're seriously wrong.

One legitimate issue is the professional (or unprofessional) peformance of the airline and its crew, based on accepted aviation standards. The judgment on that point remains out.

A different legitimate issue is how Thai Air is perceived and portrayed in the news media and thus by the general public in their handling of the mishap. Thus far, they're really not doing so good on that count.

Edited September 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Fookhaht]

Moderators, would you kindly combine the 2 or 3 threads that are falling all over one another, about this accident?

[Jay Sata]

This misguided attempt to cover up the accident has led to pictures and text in most world newspapers regarding the painting out of the logo.

In the Uk the Daily Mail ran a large story with several pictures like this which will annoy Thai management.

It's the Streisand effect.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Beechguy

I've had my fixed wing and helicopter licences for over 30 years and have experienced enough heavy landings from Thai in my years in the kingdom. The undercarriage on a lot of those aircraft gets a hammering. The odds are this collapse was because of a previous unreported heavy landing. No first officer would ever enter such an event in the logs. Thai employ their pilots from the wealthy families not from the best applicants. You'll never get near a front left hand seat in Thailand unless you have a lot of money to fund the training.

As for cabin crew disappearing well that's the Thai way. When a bus or train crashes the driver always runs.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Jay Sata

[scorecard]

I used to fly Thai inter several flights a week (Thai Inter because it was company policy to use the local flag carrier).

I always wondered what the performance of the cabin crew would be like if there was an incident.

My thoughts now substantiated.

The passengers just experienced a mechanical failure and the aircraft way out of balance, aircraft skidded for some length on the runway, had to jump to the ground at the end of the chute with no dedicated assistance, now in a state of severe shock, and then left to stand up for 20 minutes locked inside a bus.

I just heard when the buses got to the terminal there was nothing organized in terms of these passengers, no compassion or personal care....

What a total disgrace. Several very senior Thai officials should be assigned quick smart to apologize personally to each passenger.

And I hope the passengers sue the pants off Thai.

Several years back I was on a Cathay flight out of Hong Kong, there was a very loud explosion in an engine when the aircraft was just 20 cm off the ground. The aircraft thumped heavily back onto the ground and it was quite frightening.

The pilot was talking to the passengers within 1 second and assuring them there was no chance of fire, etc. He kept talking to the passengers all the time they nursed the aircraft back to the terminal, taking just about 10 minutes.

There were at least 40 trained Cathay staff waiting at the door to give personal attention. They were impressive, clearly well trained for an incident and it was obvious that Cathay had clear and specific procedures to handle something like this. No hitches whatever, all ready at the aircraft door within just a few minutes.

I elected to take a replacement flight, also well organized and ready to take off within just 20 minutes or so.

We took off then realized there were extra Cathay staff on board to talk to passengers etc., They asked me whether somebody would be meeting me? I said 'no, no time to organize it'. They asked If I would like to go to a hospital or go home. I said 'go home' (in Bkk). They called from the aircraft to put a taxi on stand by, they escorted me through passport and customs and into the taxi, with a Cathay name card showing exactly who to call, if needed.

What a contrast.

Edited September 10, 2013 by scorecard

[Fookhaht]

.

....have experienced enough heavy landings from Thai in my years in the kingdom. The undercarriage on a lot of those aircraft gets a hammering. The odds are this collapse was because of a previous unreported heavy landing. No first officer would ever enter such an event in the logs. Thai employ their pilots from the wealthy families not from the best applicants.....

Is there a "shudder" emoticon?

[Jay Sata]

Years ago Thai passengers used to cheer when an aircraft landed successfully

Edited September 10, 2013 by Jay Sata

[Crossy]

From another aircraft related forum (Pprune):

Speculation (until confirmed):
In 2007 an A330 bogie beam broke up during taxiing in Munich caused by internal corrosion.
The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (bogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.

Munich 2007:

[beechguy]

This misguided attempt to cover up the accident has led to pictures and text in most world newspapers regarding the painting out of the logo.

In the Uk the Daily Mail ran a large story with several pictures like this which will annoy Thai management.

It's the Streisand effect.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Beechguy

I've had my fixed wing and helicopter licences for over 30 years and have experienced enough heavy landings from Thai in my years in the kingdom. The undercarriage on a lot of those aircraft gets a hammering. The odds are this collapse was because of a previous unreported heavy landing. No first officer would ever enter such an event in the logs. Thai employ their pilots from the wealthy families not from the best applicants. You'll never get near a front left hand seat in Thailand unless you have a lot of money to fund the training.

As for cabin crew disappearing well that's the Thai way. When a bus or train crashes the driver always runs.

Jay Sata,

I understand what you are saying, but I'm just not prepared to speculate based on halfassed newspaper articles, etc. as to the cause of the incident. Yes, it could have been caused by these pilots, or previous crew, it may even be a maintenance issue. My problem with many of the comments in this, and other aviation related articles is the ignorance.

As to the flight and cabin crew, I won't speculate on their actions just yet. But,as to the criticism of the ground staff using their time to paint logos etc. you know and I know, that plane isn't going anywhere until the accident is investigated, and there are procedures to follow. But, the media, and the BS artists aren't interested in facts.

[MaxYakov]

Hmm...12 people injured, some due to smoke inhalation..they do not sound "safe" to me.

Most likely, the injured parties were uncouth Chinese passengers, who had opened their seatbelts and trying to collect their carry-on luggage from the overhead storage immediately after the plane touched down....... that is the usual scenario on most Chinese flights.

while pushing and shoving everyone else out of the way , once the seatbelt off signal is given.

You really think they wait for the seatbelt sign to be turned of?? ROFLMAO!

I have seen them get up while the plane is still in reverse thrust mode and the poor staff screaming at them to sit down.

I'm sure if you placed an electrically-controlled lock on the seat belt clasp, some bozos would find a way to defeat it or do something like chew the belt in two.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Nok Air is a 39% owned subsidiary of THAI Air, so I was curious to see how Nok handled the fuselage painting issue after their jet somewhat similarly ran off the runway at Trang Airport last month.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Trang-Airport-closed-after-Nok-Air-flight-slides-o-30212149.html

Perhaps the plane painters were on vacation that day???

[beechguy]

Years ago Thai passengers used to cheer when an aircraft landed successfully

Seriously, do you put any thought whatsoever into the dribble you post ?

I take it you have not been in Thailand for very long.

It used to be a ritual after every landing.

I thought it was odd, but used to happen in Europe too.

Edited September 10, 2013 by beechguy

[Nickymaster]

Years ago Thai passengers used to cheer when an aircraft landed successfully

I still do when I have no choice but to use TG.

[Jay Sata]

I think the main thrust of discussion here and elsewhere is the way the incident was handled by Thai management.

No coherent plan to deal with shocked and injured passengers who were locked in buses for 20 minutes.

Cabin crew not appearing to be in control of the evacuation and the focus on protecting the brand by trying to

hide the logo's.

As for the accident investigation I doubt we will ever find out the truth. It will drag on forever and be airbrushed away.

Just look at the outcome of the Phuket disaster.

[MaxYakov]

I used to fly Thai inter several flights a week (Thai Inter because it was company policy to use the local flag carrier).

I always wondered what the performance of the cabin crew would be like if there was an incident.

My thoughts now substantiated.

The passengers just experienced a mechanical failure and the aircraft way out of balance, aircraft skidded for some length on the runway, had to jump to the ground at the end of the chute with no dedicated assistance, now in a state of severe shock, and then left to stand up for 20 minutes locked inside a bus.

I just heard when the buses got to the terminal there was nothing organized in terms of these passengers, no compassion or personal care....

What a total disgrace. Several very senior Thai officials should be assigned quick smart to apologize personally to each passenger.

And I hope the passengers sue the pants off Thai.

Several years back I was on a Cathay flight out of Hong Kong, there was a very loud explosion in an engine when the aircraft was just 20 cm off the ground. The aircraft thumped heavily back onto the ground and it was quite frightening.

The pilot was talking to the passengers within 1 second and assuring them there was no chance of fire, etc. He kept talking to the passengers all the time they nursed the aircraft back to the terminal, taking just about 10 minutes.

There were at least 40 trained Cathay staff waiting at the door to give personal attention. They were impressive, clearly well trained for an incident and it was obvious that Cathay had clear and specific procedures to handle something like this. No hitches whatever, all ready at the aircraft door within just a few minutes.

I elected to take a replacement flight, also well organized and ready to take off within just 20 minutes or so.

We took off then realized there were extra Cathay staff on board to talk to passengers etc., They asked me whether somebody would be meeting me? I said 'no, no time to organize it'. They asked If I would like to go to a hospital or go home. I said 'go home' (in Bkk). They called from the aircraft to put a taxi on stand by, they escorted me through passport and customs and into the taxi, with a Cathay name card showing exactly who to call, if needed.

What a contrast.

What?! They didn't offer to have a flight attendant escort you home and console you? Maybe you were too shaken (not stirred) to ask.

Edited September 10, 2013 by MaxYakov

[MaxYakov]

the flight landed safely at Suvarnabhumi Airport at 11.30pm on Sunday

Except for the fact that the plane caught fire and skidded of the runway. Pretty normal otherwise.

You just need to keep that old pilots maxim in mind...

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

Any landing where you can reuse the plane is a GREAT one.

By that criteria, this was a "good: landing....

TG will be hiring new PR people. Thank about applying. I'm afraid TG might consider this to be a 'GREAT' landing for budgetary or face-saving reasons when it actually wasn't.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Couple of tidbits...

There's an interesting document hosted on the website Thai-Aviation.net that summarizes the history of Thai-related aviation accidents/incidents going back to pre-World War II days...and updated thru mid-2013... 45 pages long, including military and police aircraft mishaps, and links to the accident investigation reports on a few of the more major incidents.

http://www.thai-aviation.net/files/Air_Accidents.pdf

One of the incidents listed in there in the 2009 incident in which a Bangkok Airways flight overran the runway on landing at Samui and crashed into an old, unused control tower, killing the pilot and injuring passengers onboard.

The Wiki website page on the episode has a photo of the partially dismantled plane that now (as of Aug 2013) supposedly sits roadside in Samui. I'm sure there's a fascinating story of how and why the damaged aircraft ended up getting abandoned there. But at least it doesn't appear to be showing the Bangkok Airways logo any more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangkok_Airways_Flight_266

[EyesWideOpen]

Interesting that this logo painting is distracting from the main issue.

Why did this plane crash ?? As it was an Airbus, I can assume that the NTSB

will not be involved. Will the investigation be handled completely by Thai authorities ?

[peecee]

Would not have happened if they bought Boeing Aircraft.

Really? Well at least that remark gets you another post!

[Tywais]

Interesting that this logo painting is distracting from the main issue.

Why did this plane crash ?? As it was an Airbus, I can assume that the NTSB

will not be involved. Will the investigation be handled completely by Thai authorities ?

Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee (AAIC) of Thailand is responsible for its investigation. They could enlist the assistance of the NTSB but not likely as it is a relative minor incident and not a US registered carrier. However, if it was a Boeing than they may wish to be involved as it is a US based company. Also, Airbus may be asked or perhaps it is automatically assumed they will be involved.

[Jay Sata]

Painting out the logo is the Thai way of addressing any problem.

Cover it up.

[beechguy]

Painting out the logo is the Thai way of addressing any problem.

Cover it up.

Yes, never mind the fact that they aren't the only carriers that do it. The biggest problem they've had so far, is depending on unknowledgble PR bullshit artist, facing an ignorant news media. Is it really that difficult to state the facts as they are known at the time, and move on.

Edited September 10, 2013 by beechguy

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes, by all means, let's surely not have any discussion here of how THAI Air has overall handled the mishap, whether by painting out the plane or by its handling of the passengers post-crash or anything else, including whether the aircrew or equipment were responsible...

Surely that would be disrespectful to the fine folks who landed their aircraft in the mud.

[beechguy]

Yes, by all means, let's surely not have any discussion here of how THAI Air has overall handled the mishap, whether by painting out the plane or by its handling of the passengers post-crash or anything else, including whether the aircrew or equipment were responsible...

Surely that would be disrespectful to the fine folks who landed their aircraft in the mud.

Well if you have some facts, please do speak up. Mostly, all I've seen are unsubtantited opinions, and most of those by people who don't know anything about aviation.

[ginjag]

Would not have happened if they bought Boeing Aircraft.

Really? Well at least that remark gets you another post!

Would not have happened if it had not taken off in China.

[GentlemanJim]

Yes, by all means, let's surely not have any discussion here of how THAI Air has overall handled the mishap, whether by painting out the plane or by its handling of the passengers post-crash or anything else, including whether the aircrew or equipment were responsible...

Surely that would be disrespectful to the fine folks who landed their aircraft in the mud.

And there Ladies and Gentleman we see an example of spin at it's worst, from a self confessed 'PR' expert! TGJ Did you give up your day job or did they throw you out of it?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I've already raised some of the pertinent issues above... lots of questions...and not many clear answers.

But at least I'm willing to look at the issues that are in play, instead of ignorantly dismissing them prior to knowing the actual facts involved.

More interesting news and tidbits here in the latest thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/

"BEFORE LANDING, the pilot announced that the plane would be parked a fair way from the terminal building because the runway was under construction. Everything was normal while landing, then there was a sudden brake."

Kosit Suvinitjit, Former Media of Media executive and former Bangkok gubernatorial candidate

And then... this post from another member here:

Much more interesting stuff spoken by ordinary passengers on TV news this morning. Seems although some of the cabin crew are required to leave the plane via the chutes first to 'direct operations' at ground level, most of the cabin crew jumped out first and some effectively ran away from the scene. Passengers where not told to leave hand luggage behind and many took theirs with them causing injury to other passengers on the way out. People were not told which exits to use and a degree of panic was the order of things. Most injuries occured by proper evacuation procedures not being carried out and people following each other down the chutes too close to each other and crashing into each other.

One good aspect was that passengers were prepared to speak up about what really happened and not try to cover everything up with silence.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/#entry6808475

And from another TV member who apparently worked in the past as a flight attendant:

That is awfully sad that crew members were running away and from such a minor accident. When I was a flight attendant, only the first officer at our airline was to leave the aircraft first to assist on the ground. Cabin crew were to assign "helper" passengers to go down the slide first and assist other passengers off the aircraft. Flight attendants were to stay on the aircraft to assist passengers until the "fire was too hot, the smoke too thick or the water too high".

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666775-thai-plane-accident-eyewitness-accounts/#entry6808791

A lot of questions emerging here:

Did the pilot/cabin crew know something was amiss prior to the landing but land anyway?

Was there some issue with the runway at the time of the landing?

Why are the passengers on the plane publicly complaining about the performance of the cabin crew?