Land lease vs Superficies lease vs Usufruct Lease

[keithkarmann]

Can anyone advise me of the best way to build a house for my girlfriend while still owning the house myself. As I understand it a Usufruct lease (30 years) the land and house would belong to my girlfriend and I would just be the leesee. We will have to buy the land in her name and that would probably be the dowry if we got married. I have checked the Superficies lease and that appears to be different in that the land could be in her name but the house could be totally in my name. Yes I will pay for the land but the lease would be sorted out before construction was started. Also what is the difference (if any) between Land lease and Superficies lease.

Not that it will probably matter to me but if I died with the Land lease or Superficies the balance of the 30 years could be passed on to my family but in the Usufruct agreement the land and house would belong to the land owner in the event of my death. Having said all that I do not trust too much in the Thai law and although it would hurt I can afford to lose what I invest if everything went wrong.It is possible that we could build on land owned by my girlfriend's father but it would have to be transferred into my girlfriend's name first and presumably we would not have to pay for the land (that will be a test for our relationship).Going off topic slightly if we use her father's land, it does need a lot of fill to bring it up to road level so can anyone advise me how long you have to wait to build on land that hs been filled. Keithkarmann

[Arkady]

I would advise usufruct. Depending on the land office you can do it for nil consideration and thereby pay negligible tax. If you are not yet married, she cannot later petition a court to have contract voided as would be the case, if you were married at the time You are likely to pay more tax on a lease or a superficies and passing any benefit to foreign heirs on this type of "asset" is really a long shot. No one will buy these assets off them and enforcing their rights to live there might be difficult. Better to accept that it has no residual value.

[keithkarmann]

I would advise usufruct. Depending on the land office you can do it for nil consideration and thereby pay negligible tax. If you are not yet married, she cannot later petition a court to have contract voided as would be the case, if you were married at the time You are likely to pay more tax on a lease or a superficies and passing any benefit to foreign heirs on this type of "asset" is really a long shot. No one will buy these assets off them and enforcing their rights to live there might be difficult. Better to accept that it has no residual value.

Thanks for your reply Arkady. Assuming I follow your advise and go with Usafruct am I right in thinking that the house as well as the land would be in my girlfriend's name? and I would take out a Usafruct lease on the land and house. Not sure what the difference would be if we were married or not but I take your advise on that. Assuming we get a piece of suitable land not too close to my girlfriend's parents house and we build a house I can live there happily after and as I am older than my girlfriend I will probably die before her. Then automatically the lease is finished and my girlfriend gets the house and land. Hopefully I will have a long life but with the amount I am planning on spending on the land and house I could write off the money in 5-10 years so I would not be bothered about passing it on to my family. Would it be fair if we built on her father's land (with ownership transferred to my girlfriend) to ask me to pay her father for the land, when in the end she will end up with everything and the land will end up in the family's ownership.

I thought that if I had a land lease or superficies and things went wrong with the relationship (it happens) then at least I could demolish the house if I wanted to. A lot depends on where the house is built, if it is far enough away from her parents then it could be suitable for me to live in on my own or with someone else. But reading other posts on these matters if I built the house on her father's land and things went wrong there is no way I could live there and probably the family would move in if I went away on holiday.

[sfokevin]

"it is far enough away from her parents then it could be suitable for me to live in on my own or with someone else"...

You would most likely end up living in the Spirit House...

Edited September 16, 2013 by sfokevin

[Longtooth]

I thought that superficies and usufruct lasted until you died. If your wife dies first, her relatives will be over right after the cremation to find out when you are moving out of their house. I don't think it would be do-able to move in a new squeeze, because of the relatives, not the law. Rent a house? Some nice condos coming up in ChiangRai you could buy, if you like "pride of ownership".. We all just muddle along and make our own decisions, in the end. Just remember, there is no "gratitude". Anything and everything is accepted as a gift... the end. Then, simply, they have it, and you don't. I guess I need another cup of coffee. Sounds like a "rant".

[crazykopite]

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

[simon43]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

[keithkarmann]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

[Anon999]

Your other question is about building up the land. Better to make it above the level of any previous local flood level, ie the main road fore example. Leave for a year to settle before building is the usual advice.

If you buy the land you can still have your name entered on the back of the Chanote so make sure it's the right type of land before buying. Wouldn't advise under any circumstances buying or using a relatives land. Too risky and better to be far, far away so you can live your own life undisturbed!

[Anon999]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

Double brick walls are not really necessary and you'll be lucky to find a builder who knows how to construct them. Use Superblock or similar (lightweight aerated concrete) but more importantly make sure you face the house in the right direction. Treat yourself to a copy of Building Construction Illustrated, available in English and Thai I bought both so the builder could be shown, in Thai, exactly what I wanted done.

Finally do not leave it to the builder to get on with it, you'll need to be there every day checking everything or you will end up tearing your hair out at the end! They want to do everything the 'Thai way' and work on the basis, what the eye doesn't see the heart won't grieve about. Cutting corners is common and there are no building inspectors for private houses. Furthermore they are brilliant at covering up to make everything look beautiful for the short term.

Example, concrete is usually what I call 'soup with croutons' if you tried to do a slump test on it there would only be a dollop on the floor with water running out and that is what you will get from CPAC unless told otherwise and checked. It is hard for the workers to use the correct mix and they believe all the air will rise to the top, a fallacy, it has to be properly vibrated.

[HUAHIN62]

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

Plus she and the other relative signs all the share transfer documents and will upfront. In case of a break up you can transfer the companies shares to who you want to. The will is important as that would safe guard the shares in case she pass away before you. The will should be done in Thai and English, signed by witnesses in front of your attorney. The share transfer documents you can give to a relative with clear instruction what to do in event of you death.

[simon43]

Hi Keith

There will be thousands of plots of land available for rent in your vicinity, but the land owners don't yet know that they are for rent Meaning that if you put word out that you want to rent a small plot of land for 30 years, paying quarterly, then every man, woman and dog who owns land in the area will jump at the chance of not only receiving some useful monthly money for a spare piece of land, they will also receive your house at the end of the lase period, (unless you chose to demolish it before handing back the land....).

You can negotiate a very low land rental by pointing out that the land owner will get the house after 30 years, (or when you die). (Hence do not build a palace or you might die 'young').

I am sure that neither your GF nor her parents will like my proposal - there is nothing in it for them.

Simon

PS - I forgot to mention that you should check that the land is chanote, Nor Sor 3 Gor or nor Sor 3 title. Anything else (eg agriculural titled land) and the local Amphur department might not give you permission to build a residential house on the land

Edited September 17, 2013 by simon43

[zaZa9]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

Ok , so you dont really want the 'Lease Fathers Land' option , and rightly so .

If the relationship goes bad or even if the gf dies , you couldnt live out there.

Practically speaking , if you buy land closer to town in the gfs name and lease from her, and it all goes bad , she and family , who are locals , could well make life miserable for you till you give up and leave ...I think you know that.

And of course you dont want to buy it all in the gfs name , this could add a postive driver for her to finish you up in those rough times every relationship has.

So whats left?

Renting as you do now. Find a better house maybe?

The way I see it you would like to see your gf get the money you would normally spend on the rent , and many of us have had the same idea and thought it through.

But the conclusion is that any plan like this always costs way MORE money , and leaves you exposed in some way that mere renting does not.

I suggest as an alternative you just simply calculate what the rent would cost over say 20 years and deduct it from what all the building stuff would have cost you , and gift the difference to the gf in any way you feel fit. ( May I suggest this isnt discussed or planned with her , and the 'gifts' are done randomly with statements like , "Here , give this to Pappa for help the farm " or "Here is money for sisters school" ... doing it this way is extremely impactive on a tg.)

If you havent got 30 years left to live , think of how difficult alone the maintenace on a house in the tropics will be physically if you are still about in 20 years ... I know its something to do now , a 'project' , but building a house in LOS needs a certain level of expertise . And the many stresses may also prematurely finish the relationship ...

I'd remain renting.

[cheeryble]

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

Plus she and the other relative signs all the share transfer documents and will upfront. In case of a break up you can transfer the companies shares to who you want to. The will is important as that would safe guard the shares in case she pass away before you. The will should be done in Thai and English, signed by witnesses in front of your attorney. The share transfer documents you can give to a relative with clear instruction what to do in event of you death.

KISS

Keep it simple -------.

The above is a protracted expensive and time consuming effort to disobey the law.

A nice simple usufruct is a registered "real" right and will do and can be lifelong.

A lease is more expensive but I would add my own twist that you expect your "landlord" to rewrite the lease every (say) five years for another full 30 years. (If they are a third party they get a compensation each time). This way you will get 25 years notice of any problems with your "landlord" and can adjust what you do on that land and with that person accordingly.

Most of all if you feel the least infatuated with your wife be aware this ALWAYS disappears. If you are fortunate all that nonsense will be replaced with a solid friendship.

Edited September 17, 2013 by cheeryble

[TravelerEastWest]

 

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

 

I like your idea but I am confused - I always thought that common shares have the voting power. Is it different in Thailand?

[Anon999]

Remember when looking at land there are very important peripheral considerations to investigate. All very well having a house if you cannot get connected to anything!

1. Will you be able to get connected to the nearest mains supply from the electric company?

2. If you need to get power poles installed and the supply extended what will the cost be and how long will you have to wait?

3. Will you be able to get connected to the mains water supply?

4. Is there a public drain available and if not what is the position with getting the effluent tanks emptied or an alternative system installed?

5. What about internet and TV in the locality?

6. Is there a rubbish collection service in the area?

[keithkarmann]

Hi Keith

There will be thousands of plots of land available for rent in your vicinity, but the land owners don't yet know that they are for rent Meaning that if you put word out that you want to rent a small plot of land for 30 years, paying quarterly, then every man, woman and dog who owns land in the area will jump at the chance of not only receiving some useful monthly money for a spare piece of land, they will also receive your house at the end of the lase period, (unless you chose to demolish it before handing back the land....).

You can negotiate a very low land rental by pointing out that the land owner will get the house after 30 years, (or when you die). (Hence do not build a palace or you might die 'young').

I am sure that neither your GF nor her parents will like my proposal - there is nothing in it for them.

Simon

PS - I forgot to mention that you should check that the land is chanote, Nor Sor 3 Gor or nor Sor 3 title. Anything else (eg agriculural titled land) and the local Amphur department might not give you permission to build a residential house on the land

Thanks everyone I am getting some usefull info here,firstly I will reply to Simon. I mentioned renting the land to my girlfriend and her face dropped, then I said we need to be 10-15 kms from her family and she said nobody would come to visit and I said yes with a smile.The idea is that she can visit them and give me a bit of peace as she does once a month now. I have no objections to leaving all my Thai assets to my girlfriend but while I am here I want full control (well almost full control). I will only be spending what I can afford to lose. Yes her parents will not be too happy but they get enough out of me anyway. Time will tell if the girlfriend sticks around with the land lease and the house all in my name. As I see it and most will agree with me if they need you for money they will stick around and yes renting can be a better way but having lost my dream home in Crete due to my wife getting killed I need the challenge of building a house. At least I have not had any negative comments to my post.I will get my girlfriend to put the word out in her village that we are looking for a plot of land to lease and hope we get some suitable offers. Assuming that we get the rented land in my name and the house built in my name and we do not get legally married then there would be no point in her getting me bumped off as she would have nothing to gain. Yes I will check if the land can be legally built on.One more point you said that the land owner will get the house after 30 years or when I die, would there be some incentive for the owner to have me killed so he/she gets the house or is there someway we can protect this by putting the lease in both my name and my girlfriend's name.

Keith

[keithkarmann]

Remember when looking at land there are very important peripheral considerations to investigate. All very well having a house if you cannot get connected to anything!

1. Will you be able to get connected to the nearest mains supply from the electric company?

2. If you need to get power poles installed and the supply extended what will the cost be and how long will you have to wait?

3. Will you be able to get connected to the mains water supply?

4. Is there a public drain available and if not what is the position with getting the effluent tanks emptied or an alternative system installed?

5. What about internet and TV in the locality?

6. Is there a rubbish collection service in the area?

Hello Anon999, thanks for that I will take in what you have mentioned, obviously if some of these things are not easily available it can push up the costs considerably. I know at my girlfriend's parents house there is hardly any phone signal and I am used to the septic tank problems having lived on Crete for 8 years.Also I need a good water supply as with this heat, several showers a day are the norm for me. I do recall my girlfriend writing to her village chief to complain about the water quality in her village. I will be looking for some land with main road access with other houses (not too close) so most of the services should be available. Keith

[FiftyTwo]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

Don't do it. Just don't do.

When you buy land in a gfs name, they think it is their land (which it is), and they see you as the problem coming between them and their land.

Just give it to her as an outright gift, or do something on your own without involving her.

Far less trouble in the long run.

180k a year in rent!

That's one hell of a house (5-6Mbht).

[keithkarmann]

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

Plus she and the other relative signs all the share transfer documents and will upfront. In case of a break up you can transfer the companies shares to who you want to. The will is important as that would safe guard the shares in case she pass away before you. The will should be done in Thai and English, signed by witnesses in front of your attorney. The share transfer documents you can give to a relative with clear instruction what to do in event of you death.

KISS

Keep it simple -------.

The above is a protracted expensive and time consuming effort to disobey the law.

A nice simple usufruct is a registered "real" right and will do and can be lifelong.

A lease is more expensive but I would add my own twist that you expect your "landlord" to rewrite the lease every (say) five years for another full 30 years. (If they are a third party they get a compensation each time). This way you will get 25 years notice of any problems with your "landlord" and can adjust what you do on that land and with that person accordingly.

Most of all if you feel the least infatuated with your wife be aware this ALWAYS disappears. If you are fortunate all that nonsense will be replaced with a solid friendship.

Yes I am fully aware about the infatuation as I have had two long term marriages before and a Thai marriage that only lasted two weeks so hopefully I have learnt a few lessons. Only time will tell if my present relationship developes into a solid relationship when things get quieter in the bedroom. Keith

[FiftyTwo]

Yes I am fully aware about the infatuation as I have had two long term marriages before and a Thai marriage that only lasted two weeks so hopefully I have learnt a few lessons. Only time will tell if my present relationship developes into a solid relationship when things get quieter in the bedroom. Keith

Clearly you haven't learnt any lessons.

Otherwise you wouldn't be thinking of buying land in the name of a girl without even being in a 'solid relationship'.

[keithkarmann]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

Double brick walls are not really necessary and you'll be lucky to find a builder who knows how to construct them. Use Superblock or similar (lightweight aerated concrete) but more importantly make sure you face the house in the right direction. Treat yourself to a copy of Building Construction Illustrated, available in English and Thai I bought both so the builder could be shown, in Thai, exactly what I wanted done.

Finally do not leave it to the builder to get on with it, you'll need to be there every day checking everything or you will end up tearing your hair out at the end! They want to do everything the 'Thai way' and work on the basis, what the eye doesn't see the heart won't grieve about. Cutting corners is common and there are no building inspectors for private houses. Furthermore they are brilliant at covering up to make everything look beautiful for the short term.

Example, concrete is usually what I call 'soup with croutons' if you tried to do a slump test on it there would only be a dollop on the floor with water running out and that is what you will get from CPAC unless told otherwise and checked. It is hard for the workers to use the correct mix and they believe all the air will rise to the top, a fallacy, it has to be properly vibrated.

Thanks again Anon, I must disagree with the brick idea, probably not with the type of brick as one of the reasons I want to build is because single bricks do not keep the heat out. Some of the walls inside the house I now live in get very hot and they take a long time to cool down, leading to more use of the aircon. My plan is to use double concrete blocks with an air gap, maybe I am wrong but I believe the inside bricks will keep cool. I have tested the concrete blocks by soaking them in water for a week and after one week they are no heavier and although the lightweight aerated blocks are easier to use they do double their weight after soaking in water for a few days. I will use the lightweight blocks for some interior non load bearing walls. It will be the house that Keith built and if the builder I use can't do what I ask then I will find someone else. I have not seen any vibrators used on all the new houses been built near my present house but I will buy one to e used at all stages of the concreting on my new house. Believe it or not having seen the way the two storey house I am living in been built I do not really feel safe and my neighbour agrees with me.I will try and get a copy of the book you mentioned. Keith

[David48]

Great post and replies ... I'm goona' learn something here that could help me later ... Cheers.

[keithkarmann]

Why not set up a Thai Ltd Company you having 49% your girlfriend 51% there need to be 3 shareholder so if you have a sister/brother you could make them the other shareholder your 49% would be preferential shares so you could never be voted out and you would be the person only allowed to sign for monies/bank you could even run it as a business and pay a few taxes there are loads of businesses that can be run from home Laundry service/ironing service/ translation service the list is endless and it would allow your GF to earn money Just a Thought !!!!!

Thanks for your views but it looks a bit complicated to me to set up a Ltd Company just to build a house , but is it right that the company could buy the land?. I have heard that this process is not really legal. Keith

[keithkarmann]

Yes I am fully aware about the infatuation as I have had two long term marriages before and a Thai marriage that only lasted two weeks so hopefully I have learnt a few lessons. Only time will tell if my present relationship developes into a solid relationship when things get quieter in the bedroom. Keith

Clearly you haven't learnt any lessons.

Otherwise you wouldn't be thinking of buying land in the name of a girl without even being in a 'solid relationship'.

Yes a friend of mine tells me I am a lost cause.

[Robert2006]

Get an Attorney preferably a farang that speaks your language, it’s best for your complete understanding that you have all the documents translated into your language as well for your review because they will be in Thai. Here is an option that might work for you, your wife owns the property, you loan her the money to build it and you lease the home for 30 years from her.

As an example: Put the property in your wife’s name as sole owner, let’s say you use 3 million to buy the land and build the house, execute an interest only mortgage on the property in your name for that amount or you could adjust it up for inflation. Then set up your 30 year lease and rent the home from your wife for the exact amount of her interest only loan payment to you. It’s a wash so no money exchanges hands each month.

She owns the property you hold the mortgage with interest only payments so the mortgage balance never reduces. Eventually when the property sells the lien will have to be satisfied to clear and transfer the title (Chanoht) for the new owner and your Thai Will then determines who gets the proceeds from the sale but you have to have a Thai Will, executed in Thailand for that property. Make SURE your name is on the Chanoht as the lien holder (it will be written in Thai) and don’t lose that paperwork.

[keithkarmann]

Yes I am fully aware about the infatuation as I have had two long term marriages before and a Thai marriage that only lasted two weeks so hopefully I have learnt a few lessons. Only time will tell if my present relationship developes into a solid relationship when things get quieter in the bedroom. Keith

Clearly you haven't learnt any lessons.

Otherwise you wouldn't be thinking of buying land in the name of a girl without even being in a 'solid relationship'.

Yes a friend of mine tells me I am a lost cause.

The whole point of my post is that if I have to buy some land in my girlfriends name is that I am planning my future and I do not want to risk losing everything. I have a friend who did a similar thing and he has had to walk away from his house as it was very close to his ex-wife's mother's house and yes he thought his relationship was solid. If I can avoid the same thing happening to me then I will have learnt a lesson. It does not matter how strong you think your relationship is but things do go wrong and I have learnt that Thai ladies can be very devious. Yes I agree there are some good Thai ladies and hopefully I have got one and we will live happily ever after. Keith

[zaZa9]

This is a funny old country.

You can take care of a woman and her family fine , but when it comes to building on Somebody Elses land , albeit because its up to you and its what you want to do , she and the family will probably get annoyed with you....

I feel this may happen to you Keith.

She will be thinking , "He builds a good house that he says will last more than 30 years , and when I really need it because he is gone and Im too old to work or get a new husband , some OTHER family will get MY house!"

Her father,( that you help) or someone else in the family is likely to say that to the gf as well.

Its my view most Thais dont take this 'talk' well.

So damned if you do , damned if you dont , I guess .

But I just feel this project may rock the boat that appears currently quite steady ...

...if you simply MUST have a building project , and given your latest posts , then I would agree that buying the land ( in her name) well away from Pappa , and employing the Usufruct system would be the most peaceful alternative.

[keithkarmann]

If all you require is a 'secure' place to build a house and live out your life, and if you do not expect to live more than another 30 years..

Why not:

- Lease a suitable plot of land for 30 years. Your can legally lease this plot of land in your name only. The lease will be registered at the Amphur land office and you cannot be 'thrown' off the land so long as you continue to pay the monthly rental. You will have to pay a small land tax at time of lease registration which is based on the total lease amount over the 30 year period. But depending where you are located, leasing a nice plot of land should only cost you a few hundred $ per month. You pay this land rental on a monthly or quarterly basis - you do not need to pay the whole lease amount 'upfront'.

- Then build your dream house. Since you cannot pass on this house to anyone else after that 30 year period, (unless the landlord extends the lease, which is an unknown factor), it makes sense to build a modest house, not a palace.

So now you have a house that you own and a secure, 30 year land lease in your name only. Your GF (or anyone else) has zero legal claim on your house or the land lease. You save a load of money by not having to buy the land....

Simon

I like your plan Simon as I do not plan on living more than another 30 years. The only problem I can see is finding a suitable plot of land to lease within a 10-15 km distance of my girlfriend's parents house. As it may be easier to buy a plot, would it be a problem if I bought the plot in my girlfriend's name and then leased it from her. Would I still be secure if I was leasing from my girlfriend, technically it should not make any difference. I would have no problem leasing a plot from my girlfriend's father but there is no way I could live there if things went wrong. I do not plan on building a palace (it would be a palace by Thai standards) but it will have double brick walls and it will be a lot better than the house I am renting in Hang Dong. If my calculations are correct the cost of the build would be recovered in 3-4 years by not paying 180,000 Baht per year in rent. Obviously I would weigh up the cost of buying the land outright vs the cost of paying rent for the land, but I can't see me been around for 30 years so the rent would not be paid for that long.

Keith

Don't do it. Just don't do.

When you buy land in a gfs name, they think it is their land (which it is), and they see you as the problem coming between them and their land.

Just give it to her as an outright gift, or do something on your own without involving her.

Far less trouble in the long run.

180k a year in rent!

That's one hell of a house (5-6Mbht).

The land purchase and land lease would hopefully be all completed at the same time so yes it would be her land but I would have permission to use the land. If I leased the land from someone else and built myself then it would not technically involve her so that's probably why her smile disappeared when I mentioned this to her. Keith

[cheeryble]

My experience is that Thais will try it on and may get very upset when you say no and simply protect your own interests. The upset will usually pass In a few days and they will happily adjust to the fact that you're not an idiot.

In my case I have only ever had one request.....for an interest-bearing loan for the sister to buy more land for pineapples, a sideline already run successfully by her MIL. I refused and explained if they had a problem it could cause a family rift, and just because I happened to have the money didn't mean I was a bank....which I recommended.

In fact the pineapples are growing, the land price gone up, and they found the money which I have no doubt they repaid.

Happily although my now missus had a cob on for a few days, they have not held it against me in the least and I feel great warmth from all.

They are wonderful actually, and I feel a bit of a mean cad, but hey I did what I did.