What's God ever done for us?

[LeCharivari]

How about some decent music - Blind Willie Johnson (Taj Mahal's versions aren't too shabby, either) and of course James Brown.

That's REAL music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv_E8eBbaOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hucTDV1Fvo

John 16:24

[Dancealot]

How about some decent music - Blind Willie Johnson (Taj Mahal's versions aren't too shabby, either) and of course James Brown.

That's REAL music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv_E8eBbaOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hucTDV1Fvo

John 16:24

Praise!

[LeCharivari]

There seem to be two parallel threads here - musical and religious. I'll stick to the boring religious one!

Taking the original question at face value and assuming we're talking about the mainstream Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity (and Baha'i, I suppose) rather than any other "God", their adherents would say that God created all of "us" and gave "us" all free will - the rest is down to "us", so if "we" (the human race) decide to make life unpleasant for ourselves that's "our" choice and "our" fault, nobody else's, and its up to "us" to change attitudes, views and, at least where possible, religions. Some are more open to change than others, but the likes of Archbishop Tutu (and the Pope, although its early days for him) make it clear that change is possible.

Assuming for the sake of argument that there is a "God", I can think of lots of things I wish he had NOT done for "us" such as not creating mosquitoes, polio, MS, typhoons, etc, but little I wish he had done for either the human race or for "us" gays - any interference there would mean either a lack of free will or a bunch of clones and I for one am quite happy with the way I am and being responsible for at least some of that. If "God" made me gay, then I'm quite happy with that and I don't have any regrets or issues about what he did.

I wish some people didn't drive so badly, had more consideration for others, had a wash more often, spoke English, etc, etc, but that would mean changing the way we are and I think that's up to "us" not to some higher power (human or otherwise).

Assuming, again, that there is a "God" I wonder what anyone would like him (or her) to have done for "us" gays that we can't do for ourselves?

(Note: I should make it clear that where I say 'ourselves ... "our" choice and our" fault', etc, I mean "us" the human race in general in that context, NOT '"us" gays'.)

Gay has nothing to do with the invoked discussion.

You dont have to stigmatise yourself because you feel more comfortable postig on a gay section of a forum. In fact you are a person like everyone else. No need to manifest yourself by affirming you have been put into a box.

You've completely lost me, as your post is a bit too sesquipedalian for me.

The topic is "What's God ever done for us" - as this is the Gay Forum its not unreasonable to assume that the OP was asking, at least in part, about "us" gays and that his question wasn't confined only to music; religion, and its pros and cons, has been widely discussed here in other threads recently and is also being discussed in this one.

This is the Gay Forum, so I feel "comfortable" posting about gay matters here; in the pets Forum I feel comfortable posting about pets; in the Cycling Forum, about bicycling; in the motorbike forum, about motorbikes, etc.

I'm really not sure whether to be offended or amused by your comments, since if by being "put into a box" you mean being categorised first and foremost as "gay" I have never categorised myself that way and that has never applied to me - nor has it to the majority of posters here.

Edited October 3, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Dancealot]

Gay has nothing to do with the invoked discussion.

You dont have to stigmatise yourself because you feel more comfortable postig on a gay section of a forum. In fact you are a person like everyone else. No need to manifest yourself by affirming you have been put into a box.

You've completely lost me, as your post is a bit too sesquipedalian for me.

The topic is "What's God ever done for us" - as this is the Gay Forum its not unreasonable to assume that the OP was asking, at least in part, about "us" gays and that his question wasn't confined only to music; religion, and its pros and cons, has been widely discussed here in other threads recently and is also being discussed in this one.

This is the Gay Forum, so I feel "comfortable" posting about gay matters here; in the pets Forum I feel comfortable posting about pets; in the Cycling Forum, about bicycling; in the motorbike forum, about motorbikes, etc.

I'm really not sure whether to be offended or amused by your comments, since if by being "put into a box" you mean being categorised first and foremost as "gay" I have never categorised myself that way and that has never applied to me - nor has it to the majority of posters here.

I mean good, LeCharivar. Meaning I am trying to evade those sesquipedalianisms you emphasize.

[anon8]

OK, back to topic, guys! Question was what has God ever done for us.

It really seems that God is not great, and religion poisons everything, Hitchens was correct This is gay sub forum, it would only be fair to point out that while God plays cruel tricks on all mankind, he has been particularly vicious towards us, gay people. Countless our brothers and sisters through centuries have been killed for no other reason other than simply being gay. Two young men in mid east were hanged for no other reason than being gay few years ago. So next time I enjoy Beethovens Missa Solemnis, I think of those 2 young men. That to me represents what God has done for us.

Some argue that it isn't God who is responsible, that it is bad people who use Gods good name while they do bad deeds. I say its God. He sees all, and doesn't stop the cruelties done in his name. He is a heartless thing, a sociopath. All the good music is here not because God inspired the composer, or singers in a choir, all this good music is written DESPITE the evil that is religion.

This should be on topic.

Edited October 3, 2013 by valgehiir

[onthemoon]

God hasn't given us music, people have. With or without long words. Let's enjoy the music, shall we?

[sustento]

Fransicus/quote: Tell me, when god looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person.

How cool is that. The first engagig and progressive pope.

he is smart, in order to keep his cult alive, he knows he needs to adjust. If he was progressive, he'd denounce this charade, and dismantle it.

Rome was not built in one day!

I know we gays are pretty smart but I don't think we can claim all the credit for building Rome

[LeCharivari]

OK, back to topic, guys! Question was what has God ever done for us.

It really seems that God is not great, and religion poisons everything, Hitchens was correct This is gay sub forum, it would only be fair to point out that while God plays cruel tricks on all mankind, he has been particularly vicious towards us, gay people. Countless our brothers and sisters through centuries have been killed for no other reason other than simply being gay. Two young men in mid east were hanged for no other reason than being gay few years ago. So next time I enjoy Beethovens Missa Solemnis, I think of those 2 young men. That to me represents what God has done for us.

Some argue that it isn't God who is responsible, that it is bad people who use Gods good name while they do bad deeds. I say its God. He sees all, and doesn't stop the cruelties done in his name. He is a heartless thing, a sociopath. All the good music is here not because God inspired the composer, or singers in a choir, all this good music is written DESPITE the evil that is religion.

This should be on topic.

So if you think God's responsible, what do you think he should do - or should have done?

Not created gays? I can't go along with that one, as you'd have to include anyone who wasn't 100% "normal" and just have a human race of bronzed demi-gods. I prefer a bit of variety, whatever it might be, and I'm very happy with the way I am.

Made gays more "acceptable"? Isn't that up to us? ... and if he was to stop the cruelties and excesses done in his name how could he do that and still let us have free-will? I'm not a believer, but I can see why a lot of people are and why it gives so many people inspiration - some use that for good, some for evil, but even without a God I think most of those people would turn out as they are but they just wouldn't have an excuse for it.

I'm not going to go into it here although its arguably well on-topic as it was Sharia (God's) law, but the two young men you refer to were NOT hung for being gay ( http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/568445-gay-activists-adoreable-or-unbearable/#entry5472648 and http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/587625-ahmadinejads-latest-anti-gay-rant-calls-homosexuality-ugly/#entry5708291 refer ) as it has already been discussed at some length.

[anon8]

Not created gays? I can't go along with that one, as you'd have to include anyone who wasn't 100% "normal" and just have a human race of bronzed demi-gods. I prefer a bit of variety, whatever it might be, and I'm very happy with the way I am.

Made gays more "acceptable"? Isn't that up to us? ... and if he was to stop the cruelties and excesses done in his name how could he do that and still let us have free-will?

Of course it's up to us. Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere. In time, several generations after we are long gone, people will laugh at the fairy tales about old man in the sky and other similar stories that make hating and even hurting a fellow man acceptable. Its gonna take time tho. We can make it happen sooner, if we all shout out loud THERE IS NO GOD. We need to stop being nice about these hateful, vicious cults, and not make excuses for them.

Im pretty sure we all prefer a bit of variety. But how can you even ask 'Not create gays?' and use words like 'normal' in this context.

[sustento]

Not created gays? I can't go along with that one, as you'd have to include anyone who wasn't 100% "normal" and just have a human race of bronzed demi-gods. I prefer a bit of variety, whatever it might be, and I'm very happy with the way I am.

Made gays more "acceptable"? Isn't that up to us? ... and if he was to stop the cruelties and excesses done in his name how could he do that and still let us have free-will?

Of course it's up to us. Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere. In time, several generations after we are long gone, people will laugh at the fairy tales about old man in the sky and other similar stories that make hating and even hurting a fellow man acceptable. Its gonna take time tho. We can make it happen sooner, if we all shout out loud THERE IS NO GOD. We need to stop being nice about these hateful, vicious cults, and not make excuses for them.

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

[anon8]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

are these the oatmeal people?

[Dancealot]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

are these the oatmeal people?

You could also enlighten us with what you think as a devine sound/music.

[anon8]

Enlighten you? Why you being sarcastic? Did I say something to offend you?

By divine music you prolly mean music written with religious services in mind, music in itself can't be divine. Nope, not gonna link to church tune, instead here's an excellent clip with an interview so good, its divine:

Edited October 4, 2013 by valgehiir

[Dancealot]

Enlighten you? Why you being sarcastic? Did I say something to offend you?

I am always sarcastic. I did not try to offend you. On the contrary, I would like to hear your view about religion and thanks for the youtube link.

My opinions on religion come very close to Bill Mahers.

/quote Yes, there are gay muslim religious activists. Hell of a job desription.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Dancealot

[sustento]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

are these the oatmeal people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church

Your knowledge of vicious cults is obviously profound

[anon8]

Your knowledge of vicious cults is obviously profound.

Thanks, I know!

Here's another great Jesus tune:

Edited October 4, 2013 by valgehiir

[wooloomooloo]

Here's another great Jesus tune...

What's all the Jesus tunes got to do with the OP.

Rock & Roll, Punk, New Wave, Electronic have brought us some great tunes over the years. Jesus hasn't got a monopoly on great tunes.

Edited October 4, 2013 by wooloomooloo

[anon8]

What's all the Jesus tunes got to do with the OP.

Rock & Roll, Punk, New Wave, Electronic have brought us some great tunes over the years. Jesus hasn't got a monopoly on great tunes.

From what I understand, OP insists this topic is about God tunes. The robes that priests, and choir singers wear in church could be considered somewhat gay, so there is some gay connection here. And lets not forget Pope wears red Prada shoes, that's as gay as it gets.

[David48]

When my Thai Lassie came for her last visit, we were cleaning the Garage and I would tune the radio into the ABC, which is the local news, weather, sport, talk-back and some music.

One look on her face about 30 mins and 'Sure honey, go and change it' ... maybe an hour of surfing she settled on one I've never listen before.

It was a Community Christian Radio Station ... easy listening stuff.

Modern, Christian popular music is almost indiscernible

I made (hopefully) the album click-able links to the music

.

[David48]

Well, that seems to work.

Click the album cover to play the song.

Sure, it's all pop, but the message has to stay relevant to it's audience.

Oh ... that last one is on the channel.

... learn something new every day.

.

[onthemoon]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

are these the oatmeal people?

They are known to have supported gay people for many years. I just found this direct link to gay marriage.

Here is a more comprehensive link to Quakerism and Homosexuality.

[onthemoon]

Your knowledge of vicious cults is obviously profound.

Thanks, I know!

Here's another great Jesus tune:

Hilarious! When I was a teenager, I did believe that Jesus loved me. In fact, he was my imaginary friend, and he was young and good-looking.

That was until I had sex with a man for the first time and was not in need of imaginary friends any more.

[LeCharivari]

Not created gays? I can't go along with that one, as you'd have to include anyone who wasn't 100% "normal" and just have a human race of bronzed demi-gods. I prefer a bit of variety, whatever it might be, and I'm very happy with the way I am.

Made gays more "acceptable"? Isn't that up to us? ... and if he was to stop the cruelties and excesses done in his name how could he do that and still let us have free-will?

Of course it's up to us. Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere. In time, several generations after we are long gone, people will laugh at the fairy tales about old man in the sky and other similar stories that make hating and even hurting a fellow man acceptable. Its gonna take time tho. We can make it happen sooner, if we all shout out loud THERE IS NO GOD. We need to stop being nice about these hateful, vicious cults, and not make excuses for them.

Im pretty sure we all prefer a bit of variety. But how can you even ask 'Not create gays?' and use words like 'normal' in this context.

"But how can you even ask 'Not create gays?' and use words like 'normal' in this context."

I can ask "Not create gays?" because it seems to be one of the few options available to a God if what you (and others) say is correct: "He sees all, and doesn't stop the cruelties done in his name. He is a heartless thing, a sociopath. .... while God plays cruel tricks on all mankind, he has been particularly vicious towards us, gay people."

I can ask because I don't agree with it, as I explained in the same post, but I am asking what other options those who are "blaming" God would prefer from him: a bolt of lightning from the sky striking any individual who discriminates against gays or anyone else because of the way they were born (the left-handed, ethnic minorities, etc, etc)? Floods and plagues on those countries with anti-gay laws? Its easy to blame religion and to say "God" is responsible, but those doing so have yet to say what they think he should be doing to make things better.

I use "normal" because I put it in inverted commas to show context and meaning. While being gay is (or at least should be) acceptable it's a minority trait, like being left-handed or ginger-haired, so by definition it's not "normal" - conforming to the norm, usual, average, typical, standard, common, etc. That doesn't make it dysfunctional or wrong, just different from the majority.

Your taking exception to my use of the word "normal" when no offence was intended, and I assumed I had made that obvious, is actually a good example of why I'm asking what you and others think "God" should be doing to stop discrimination, just in case anyone favours the "lightning strike " option - if it were to be used to protect anyone who felt offended soon there wouldn't be many people left.

Just what do you think God, if he exists, should be doing?

[LeCharivari]

Of course it's up to us. Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere. In time, several generations after we are long gone, people will laugh at the fairy tales about old man in the sky and other similar stories that make hating and even hurting a fellow man acceptable. Its gonna take time tho. We can make it happen sooner, if we all shout out loud THERE IS NO GOD. We need to stop being nice about these hateful, vicious cults, and not make excuses for them.

"Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere" .... I'd question that.

It all depends, as always, on whose statistics you believe but what seems reasonably clear is that among those who have actually formed a view as distinct from those who simply followed their parents' beliefs unquestioningly religion is actually getting stronger - not necessarily in terms of numbers who routinely call themselves Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc, and who observe the sabbath without really thinking about it, but in terms of those who have thought about it, weighed up the options, and who genuinely believe in a God.

There may be less "believers", although even that's arguable, but many are getting more "orthodox" and stricter than ever before. Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear, so many people are turning to religion for the "answers" they want - whether that's 23 October 4004 BC or shahada and 72 wide-eyed virgins or boys of "perpetual freshness".

[LeCharivari]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

Nor I ... and I've been a member of the MCC for 40 years. ... or are we talking about a different Lord?

[anon8]

"Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere" .... I'd question that.

There may be less "believers", although even that's arguable, but many are getting more "orthodox" and stricter than ever before. Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear, so many people are turning to religion for the "answers" they want

Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear? Maybe. We will never convince every imbecile that there is no God. But as science progresses, and more people get better educated, the fairy tales will be exposed as nothing more than cute stories. Adults generally don't believe in Santa, some do, and we will always have some seniles, and vey dumb people around. But given time they become a tiny minority, a fringe.

You say you'd question that religion in decline, and science is on the rise. I'm sorry, but that is very strange opinion.

Edited October 5, 2013 by valgehiir

[anon8]

Just what do you think God, if he exists, should be doing?

Well, obviously he does not exist, and therefor he can't do nothing about anything.

What WE PEOPLE can do, is putting the stop to this dangerous, hurtful charade that is religion.

By speaking in defense to organized religion, you give cover to all the evil that is done in the name of God.

After people stop believing fairy tales, there will be no need to ask what God should do about haters. The moment people stop believing, problem takes care of itself, peoples lives get better, instead of having religion ruining it, often to the point of suicides and murders.

Edited October 5, 2013 by valgehiir

[sustento]

I didn't realise that the Quakers or the MCC were hateful, vicious cults...

Nor I ... and I've been a member of the MCC for 40 years. ... or are we talking about a different Lord?

I think we may be - the one I'm talking about doesn't play cricket (not that I know of anyway)

http://mccchurch.org/

[sustento]

"Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere" .... I'd question that.

There may be less "believers", although even that's arguable, but many are getting more "orthodox" and stricter than ever before. Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear, so many people are turning to religion for the "answers" they want

Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear? Maybe. We will never convince every imbecile that there is no God. But as science progresses, and more people get better educated, the fairy tales will be exposed as nothing more than cute stories. Adults generally don't believe in Santa, some do, and we will always have some seniles, and vey dumb people around. But given time they become a tiny minority, a fringe.

How to win friends and influence people

[LeCharivari]

"Science is on the rise, religion is in decline everywhere" .... I'd question that.

There may be less "believers", although even that's arguable, but many are getting more "orthodox" and stricter than ever before. Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear, so many people are turning to religion for the "answers" they want

Science isn't convincing because it doesn't give the answers people want to hear? Maybe. We will never convince every imbecile that there is no God. But as science progresses, and more people get better educated, the fairy tales will be exposed as nothing more than cute stories. Adults generally don't believe in Santa, some do, and we will always have some seniles, and vey dumb people around. But given time they become a tiny minority, a fringe.

You say you'd question that religion in decline, and science is on the rise. I'm sorry, but that is very strange opinion.

"You say you'd question that religion in decline, and science is on the rise. I'm sorry, but that is very strange opinion."

You seem to support the Flynn effect, that as IQ generally is going up by some three points a decade so people are becoming more intelligent and religious belief is declining at a similar rate. Unfortunately all it indicates is that IQ scores are going up on the same tests - not that intelligence, education or science is progressing.

Mine's not that strange an opinion, as I think a lot of people realise that religious extremism (which is what I referred to, not numbers) is on the rise - probably most people who look at the news about the Middle and Far East and Africa would realise that and realise that its not just confined to Islam. Creationism ( the date reference) is also becoming more popular, despite scientific progress as a number of studies of university students show - while they may not necessarily be the most intelligent/least imbecilic people, they are certainly the most highly educated.

http://econ.ucsd.edu/~elib/rex.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roya-r-rad-ma-psyd/what-turns-ordinary-people-into-religious-extremists_b_3375890.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/the-big-question-why-is-creationism-on-the-rise-and-does-it-have-a-place-in-education-927035.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/21/religion.highereducation

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/nov/27/controversiesinscience.religion

Edited October 6, 2013 by LeCharivari