Acredited school in Pattaya for new settlement visa requirements in English, Where?

[SirPaul]

I did post this on the pattaya forum, but maybe it should be here, not sure...

In attempting to apply for a settlement visa for my Thai wife to come to the UK I was looking down the checklist on the UK Border Website when I came across the following:

From 28 October 2013, unless they are exempt, all applicants for settlement or naturalisation as a British citizen will need to meet the knowledge of language and life requirement by:

• passing the life in the UK test; and
• having a speaking and listening qualification in English at B1 CEFR or higher, or its equivalent.

For details of the new requirement please see the Changes to the knowledge of language and life requirements for settlement or naturalisation

I have further read that level "B1 CEFR" cannot be attained through guesswork! There is a need to go to a registered school and study over many weeks. The life in the UK test again is equally as difficult. Before October 28th 2013 things were easier. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the standard of English now required matches the requirement for Thai people in the UK to get their settlement visas converted to indefinate stay.

The reason I am posting this in the Pattaya Forum area is because I know there is an acredited school in Bangkok to attain this, but we live in Pattaya and so we need to know if and where such an acredited school might exist in Pattaya? Apparently you cannot just use any school for English, as far as I am aware the school has to be acredited so that when they pass you it actually counts on your settlement visa application.

Hope somebody can help point me in the right direction here

[Tony M]

There is only one accredited test centre in Pattaya, and your wife may have to do a course which leads to the test itself. CTLS Language School is the only accredited school and test centre, although others in Pattaya also claim this distinction. You can Google them.

If your wife's English is good enough to take the test without any further tuition, then she will have to go to Bangkok to do the test, I think.

The level needed is A1 for a UK settlement visa, not B1. You have been looking at the guidance for further/indefinite leave to remain in the UK

[SirPaul]

The level needed is A1 for a UK settlement visa, not B1. You have been looking at the guidance for further/indefinite leave to remain in the UK

The change was yesterday (28/10/2013).

It was A1, it is now B1. A1 is easy to get, and I have read it can be got through luck and that is why they have made it more difficult.

I agree that the wording on the web site is unclear. You feel when reading it all that there is no need for my wife to learn English until she is in the UK, but this is not the case.

The web site URL is: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsfragments/85-koll

and was posted on 20/09/2013

This change seems quite a large hurdle to getting a settlement visa? We are dissapointed as our plans have now been affected.

Thankyou for the info about the school in Pattaya. That is just what we needed to know.

[Tony M]

The level needed is A1 for a UK settlement visa, not B1. You have been looking at the guidance for further/indefinite leave to remain in the UK

The change was yesterday (28/10/2013).

It was A1, it is now B1. A1 is easy to get, and I have read it can be got through luck and that is why they have made it more difficult.

I agree that the wording on the web site is unclear. You feel when reading it all that there is no need for my wife to learn English until she is in the UK, but this is not the case.

The web site URL is: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsfragments/85-koll

and was posted on 20/09/2013

This change seems quite a large hurdle to getting a settlement visa? We are dissapointed as our plans have now been affected.

Thankyou for the info about the school in Pattaya. That is just what we needed to know.

The change on 28/10/13 does not apply to visa applications. It is still A1 Level for visa applications

[SirPaul]

Do they put the change date on the web site to make things more confusing? Because this worked for me!

Can you study for B1 in Thailand so you do not have to do it in England - the thinking here is you can than qualify in Thailand for indefinate stay without having to go to school in the UK - when the time comes you just present your certificates that you got a few years before when you were studying in Thailand.

And, what about the "life in the UK test", do you need this for the visa or is this too, for indefinate stay?

From your posts Tony, I am now to understand there has been no change of late to the settlement visa application.

[SirPaul]

No. You cannot do B1 in Thailand, only A1. That is why they have not changed the visa requirements. It was just unclear as links went to the UK border agency.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bangkockney]

No. You cannot do B1 in Thailand, only A1. That is why they have not changed the visa requirements. It was just unclear as links went to the UK border agency.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

A1, B1 etc are just levels of the CEFR. All secure english language tests have been mapped to the CEFR. So, A1 represents a certain TOEIC, IELTS score etc. So, one could take IELTS in Thailand and get a score equivalent to C1 for example.

Applicants are free to take any approved SELT.

Applicants are also free to study wherever in order to prepare. It is the test itself which must be on the approved list, not the course provider.

[7by7]

No. You cannot do B1 in Thailand, only A1. That is why they have not changed the visa requirements. It was just unclear as links went to the UK border agency.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You can, as bangkockney says, take B1 in Thailand, you can take any level in Thailand, provided the school concerned offers it.

The language requirement for the initial visa is not only unchanged in Thailand, it's unchanged everywhere; see English language requirement.

The changes effective from last Monday are, as TonyM says, to the language requirement for Indefinite Leave to Remain; which your wife won't be able to apply for until she has lived in the UK as your spouse for at least 5 years.

Your confusion has probably arisen because by 'settlement' the UKBA (now UKV&I) do not mean the initial visa, they mean ILR.

You may find UK Settlement Visa Basics helpful.

Edited October 30, 2013 by 7by7

[SirPaul]

What is the 'Settlement Visa' (initial visa) now called?

The school in Pattaya that was mentioned above only teaches to A1, so I am still looking for somewhere in Pattaya that teaches to B1. This would be useful as there would then be no need to go to school in the U.K. saving time & probably money too.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[7by7]

It's known as a visa to join/accompany spouse/partner/fiancé/parents/whatever as appropriate.

Forums such as this, though, tend to refer to it as a spouse visa, partner visa, fiancé visa, child visa etc.

Most (all?) speaking and listening passes issued by providers in Thailand are only valid for 2 years. So if she did pass at B1 it will have expired by the time she comes to apply for ILR in 5 years time.

A1 is not a very high standard. If she can hold a conversation with you in English she should be able to pass at A1 and so not need a course at all.

[BIGJIMMY]

So to confirm - can the A1 grade be obtained in Pattaya at CTLS Language School and be recognised by the UK EMbassy?

Thanks

[SirPaul]

It's known as a visa to join/accompany spouse/partner/fiancé/parents/whatever as appropriate.

Forums such as this, though, tend to refer to it as a spouse visa, partner visa, fiancé visa, child visa etc.

Most (all?) speaking and listening passes issued by providers in Thailand are only valid for 2 years. So if she did pass at B1 it will have expired by the time she comes to apply for ILR in 5 years time.

A1 is not a very high standard. If she can hold a conversation with you in English she should be able to pass at A1 and so not need a course at all.

This is great information, thanks.

It is worth noting that B1 in Thailand will not be valid for indefinate stay in the UK as it expires!! Thankgod I did my MSc.in the UK else it would have expired by now!

Does the UK not want to recognise qualifications achieved in Thailand as they may be doubtful as to the consistancy regarding marking by the said testing centres. However, this all seems a bit strange as the said testing centres are specified by 'VFS Visa Information Service' - "Further guidance and a full list of test providers can be found here.<http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf>" (sent to me by email).

Your statement, "A1 is not a very high standard. If she can hold a conversation with you in English she should be able to pass at A1 and so not need a course at all.", tells me that the qualification is useless, unhelpful and is a just a further way of making us part with our money and jump through more hoops. When you think about it, this is in fact terrible - I would rather my wife spent months learning English to a level that would not only be useful but would also be valid if she decided to apply for indefinate stay or even a job in the UK. Else, they should not bother. You do not make academic qualifications so people can pass the exam with ease as this is known as a waist of time - we would all be doctors, lawyers, etc... What we have here is a pathetic test just to please UK voters, so the government looks like they are tackling immigration issues, when really all they are doing is banging a drum, little more. You have to take your hat off to the UK think-tanks that put this one together - in a way it makes you proud to be British!!

I have been researching this area now for three days, I have learnt a lot from the ThaiVisa Forums (thanks to eveyone, excellent as usual), visits and chats to the School in Pattaya mentioned above, and the emails received from VFS Visa Information Services. My conclusion is my wife will try the A1 test and if I can get literature about it first, I will. If she fails she will have to attend classes in Pattaya, and then try again. If she fails again I will have to get her statemented as uncapable of passing any exams!

[SirPaul]

The school in Pattaya will train your wife to A1 standard but the exam has to be taken in Bangkok. I visited the school and they were most helpful. I was given the telephone number of the teacher, who I phoned and he was helpful too. We had a chat and he said that even if they did teach up to level B1 and it would be valid, the problem here is that they have to take a "life in the UK" test, and this would be a nightmare to teach in Thailand as it is so difficult - most Brits would fail it! Qestions like how many MP's make up parliament. I beleive an answer of over 500 would be sufficient, but they want an exact number - why? Another test designed to test.

So I will finish with this thought...

Always remember...

A TEST ONLY TESTS WHAT A TEST TESTS.

Edited October 31, 2013 by SirPaul

[7by7]

I have to admit that this is the first time I have seen anyone 'complaining' that the English test for the initial visa is too easy!

I guess that the reasoning behind this is to try and ensure that family migrants have a basic understanding of English when they first arrive, which they then must improve upon in order to apply for ILR.

I suspect that the reason why passes are only valid for two years is the theory that if you don't use it, you lose it. That is certainly the case with the French I learned at school!

Edit;

The reason why no one teaches or offers the LitUK test in Thailand is that the rules say it can only be taken in the UK.

Edited October 31, 2013 by 7by7

[7by7]

So to confirm - can the A1 grade be obtained in Pattaya at CTLS Language School and be recognised by the UK EMbassy?

Thanks

There is only one accredited test centre in Pattaya, and your wife may have to do a course which leads to the test itself. CTLS Language School is the only accredited school and test centre, although others in Pattaya also claim this distinction. You can Google them.

If your wife's English is good enough to take the test without any further tuition, then she will have to go to Bangkok to do the test, I think.

[SirPaul]

I have to admit that this is the first time I have seen anyone 'complaining' that the English test for the initial visa is too easy!

I guess that the reasoning behind this is to try and ensure that family migrants have a basic understanding of English when they first arrive, which they then must improve upon in order to apply for ILR.

I suspect that the reason why passes are only valid for two years is the theory that if you don't use it, you lose it. That is certainly the case with the French I learned at school!

Edit;

The reason why no one teaches or offers the LitUK test in Thailand is that the rules say it can only be taken in the UK.

You cannot lose something you did not have. By your own admission - my wife probably does not need to attend school - she has been to the UK with me six time, and has spent in total about 3 years there. But, no way can she converse like a Brit and I would not expect this. I repeat,, my conclusion for the A1 qualification is simply to get the A1 qualification so you can apply for a visa, another cost for me whilst the government is seen to be doing something, when really they are doing nothing but making people like me pay more for a settlement visa. If this was not the case the qualification would be harder and worth something in the UK.

I beleive the reason the rules state that life in the UK test can only be taken in the UK is to do the validity of the pass and nothing more. They need to control it, and that does make sense. It is just a shame that my wife can achieve so little here in Thailand, it would be nice if they could do more.that would help them when they got to the UK.

[7by7]

I suspect that the reason why passes are only valid for two years is the theory that if you don't use it, you lose it.

A thought, though.

This limited life never used to be a problem under the old rules.

Those entering as a spouse, civil partner or unmarried partner would only need it for the initial visa application. They would be applying for ILR after 2 years when the higher qualification was required.

Those entering as fiancés or prospective civil partners would need it again when they made their FLR application after the marriage or civil partnership; but that would be within 6 months of their entering the UK. Again, they would need the higher qualification when applying for ILR, 2 years after their FLR.

Now, though, everyone has to make a FLR application after 30 months from their initial entry if a spouse, civil partner or unmarried partner or 30 months after their first FLR if they entered as a fiancé or prospective civil partner.

To do so they will need an A1 pass; but their initial one will have expired!

Will they be able to use this expired pass for their 30 month FLR application, or will UKV&I insist on them obtaining another one?

[7by7]

It is just a shame that my wife can achieve so little here in Thailand, it would be nice if they could do more.that would help them when they got to the UK.

In learning English, you wife can achieve as much as she wishes or is capable of in Thailand; up to degree standard or better if there is a school which will take her that far.

A1 in speaking and listening is the minimum standard required; there is no maximum.

From my posting history you will see that I am against many of the changes to the immigration rules since Blair and Brown started fiddling with them over 10 years ago; especially the financial requirements which came into effect from July 2012.

However, I am in favour of the language requirement and the changes that have been made to it since it was first introduced; i.e.

• a basic standard of spoken English (or Welsh or Scottish Gaelic) for initial entry;
• a higher standard, including reading and writing, for ILR and naturalisation.

[SirPaul]

It is just a shame that my wife can achieve so little here in Thailand, it would be nice if they could do more.that would help them when they got to the UK.

In learning English, you wife can achieve as much as she wishes or is capable of in Thailand; up to degree standard or better if there is a school which will take her that far.

A1 in speaking and listening is the minimum standard required; there is no maximum.

From my posting history you will see that I am against many of the changes to the immigration rules since Blair and Brown started fiddling with them over 10 years ago; especially the financial requirements which came into effect from July 2012.

However, I am in favour of the language requirement and the changes that have been made to it since it was first introduced; i.e.

• a basic standard of spoken English (or Welsh or Scottish Gaelic) for initial entry;
• a higher standard, including reading and writing, for ILR and naturalisation.

This is strange, I think the opposite to you. Firstly I am all for financial requirements - you have always had to show you could support your wife, now it is even more clear by stating a minimum income - you now know the criteria which is a vast improvement. The income levels may seem high but it is expensive for two people to live in the UK in 2013 and I think they are actually about right. The debate will continue, but for two people to live in the UK there is a need to have an income of £20,000 plus per year.

My position is that I am in favour of a test to come into the UK when you are being given permission to stay there and work. This is in itself very different from simply visiting the UK as a tourist. What I am against is any test that is simply too easy and therefore fails to be of any use to anyone. Make a test that takes some level of work, where the applicant can learn some useful skills making them feel of worth in the UK, not isolated through ignorance. A "basic test" is not a test. It fails to achieve anything. The words "basic test" simply mean you are being asked to attend, jump through a hoop, but do not worry as this is a basic test. In plain English - another expense.

A1 (from what I have read so far) can near enough mathematically be passed by luck!! It therefore has no use to the applicant apart from completing the visa form. Just because something is a test and given a marking of A1 does not qualify it in any way as to be useful to the applicant or indeed help further the applicant's level of English - grammar, spoken or written. Therefore, the test fails to gaurantee in any way that the applicant will have a basic standard of spoken English, all it gaurantees is that the applicant has reached the standard for the visa application, which, by your own admission is very low.

I wish the test did what it said and the applicant could achieve a basic standard of spoken English, but the truth is that it does not and cannot. Probably the visa staff and people teaching in Thailand that are not from English speaking countries and have not lived in such countries; they would probably fail to meet the standard of "a basic standard of English". Do not believe because something is a test, the result is a given.

What is a basic standard of Enlish? I would argue a child leaving primary school (age 11) in the UK should have this if they started school in the UK (age 4). This is still quiet a high standard for any foreign person to achieve as I remember sitting my elleven-plus at primary school, and it was difficult. In fact the standard they proport passing A1 leads to is untrue - it must be by the argument I present here. They did not set a proper value for A1 for it was not important to do so, it has no value by definition.

[bangkockney]

I disagree on your take on the CEFR bands having no value. There's some 20 years of research that went into the framework, and the bands do relate well to skill levels, and more importantly allow comparison across the various SELTs (IELTS, TOEIC, TOEFL etc).

You can read all about it here: http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/linguistic/cadre1_en.asp

I also think A1 is probably too low - or the requirement is too narrow skill wise - but remember that a higher standard is expected later. Therefore a lower requirement for entry, where an applicant can benefit from immersive study, is quite logical. Howeer, I still find it odd that reading and writing is ignored at the later stage too.

[SirPaul]

My argument is with the A1 qualification.

The bandings do have value. My problem is that if you obtain B1 in Thailand why does it expire after 2 years? This further does not make any sense when you take into account that you will be living in the UK, How can such a qualification become invalid? The worth of the banding is denied by the authorities who proclaim that after 2 years your qualification is invalid.

[7by7]

By 'authorities' I assume that you mean the Home Office in the form of UKV&I.

It is not they who determine the validity period of passes; it is the test providers themselves.

Some place a limited validity on their passes, others don't. Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, all the approved providers operating in Thailand do.

You need to take it up with them.

[7by7]

I still find it odd that reading and writing is ignored at the later stage too.

It isn't.

The requirement for ILR is B1 in speaking and listening and passing the LitUK test.

To study for the LitUK test requires reading skills in English as does taking it; it's a written test.

Well, to be precise it's a computer based test. So the candidate has to read the questions and then click a mouse to select the correct answer(s); unless the candidate is blind, in which case the questions will be read to them.

Edited October 31, 2013 by 7by7

[ThaiDiamond]

A couple of quick thoughts directed to the posts in this thread.

First off; TOIEC and BULATS test results don't expire per se. Like knowing how to ride a bike, language skills take a long long time to wear off. It's the end user - in this case the UKBA - who typically set their own expire dates on when they will except test results. This is typically two years.

In stage two of the Settlement visa, the FLR stage, a second language test to the A1 level is not required.

An applicant has already passed the A1 requirement at stage one when the initially receive their visa. That box has been ticked off. There is no intermediate English test requirement. Another test at this stage would only make sense if a higher level was required.

At stage three, the ILR, you do need to show a B1 "lower intermediate" level. However, the ILR is now after more than 5 years of living in the UK. (You may want to see how much progress your wife has made in all that time.)

You can get up to speed on the CEFR system through this short, Cambridge-produced 3 minute video.

Finally as to the comments on regarding the CEFR "bands", to help people understand examination results, ALTE (The Association of Language Testers in Europe) has developed a series of "Can Do" statements describing what a person "can do" using the language at a particular CEFR level and in a particular context.

The four contexts are: general, social & tourist, work, and study. Here's one example. The table below shows the 6 ALTE levels (related to the CEFR levels), together with the ALTE "Can Do" statements (in the context of general language).

ALTE levels

ALTE "Can Do" SAtatements (context: General)

Equivalent CEF levels

listening/speaking

reading

writing

5

CAN advise on or talk about complex or sensitive issues, understanding colloquial references and dealing confidently with hostile questions.

CAN understand documents, correspondence and reports, including the finer points of complex texts.

CAN write letters on any subject and full notes of meetings or seminars with good expression and accuracy.

C2

4

CAN contribute effectively to meetings and seminars within own area of work or keep up a casual conversation with a good degree of fluency, coping with abstract expressions.

CAN read quickly enough to cope with an academic course, to read the media for information or to understand non-standard correspondence.

CAN prepare/draft professional correspondence, take reasonably accurate notes in meetings or write an essay which shows an ability to communicate.

C1

3

CAN follow or give a talk on a familiar topic or keep up a conversation on a fairly wide range of topics.

CAN scan texts for relevant information, and understand detailed instructions or advice.

CAN make notes while someone is talking or write a letter including non-standard requests.

B2

2

CAN express opinions on abstract/cultural matters in a limited way or offer advice within a known area, and understand instructions or public announcements.

CAN understand routine information and articles, and the general meaning of non-routine information within a familiar area.

CAN write letters or make notes on familiar or predictable matters.

B1

1

CAN express simple opinions or requirements in a familiar context.

CAN understand straightforward information within a known area, such as on products and signs and simple textbooks or reports on familiar matters.

CAN complete forms and write short simple letters or postcards related to personal information.

A2

Breakthrough

CAN understand basic instructions or take part in a basic factual conversation on a predictable topic.

CAN understand basic notices, instructions or information.

CAN complete basic forms, and write notes including times, dates and places.

A1

Hope this helps..

[7by7]

First off; TOIEC and BULATS test results don't expire per se. Like knowing how to ride a bike, language skills take a long long time to wear off. It's the end user - in this case the UKBA - who typically set their own expire dates on when they will except test results. This is typically two years.

No, it is not "typically two years."

Look at the list of approved test providers and you will see that the majority of test providers do not have an expiry date on their tests.

Unfortunately all those operating in Thailand do.

In stage two of the Settlement visa, the FLR stage, a second language test to the A1 level is not required.

An applicant has already passed the A1 requirement at stage one when the initially receive their visa. That box has been ticked off. There is no intermediate English test requirement. Another test at this stage would only make sense if a higher level was required.

When making any visa or LTR application the applicant has to show that they meet the language requirement for that application; which for FLR is A1 or the equivalent in speaking and listening.

I agree that as the applicant has already passed at A1 or the equivalent for the initial visa that asking them to take the test again for FLR is illogical.

But if you have been involved in dealing with first the IND, then UKBA and now UKV&I for as long as I have you will know that the logic often doesn't come into the equation!

You will see from this post that I have raised the question of whether or not an expired A1 pass will still be accepted for an FLR application with UKV&I and will post their reply in that topic when I receive it.

[bangkockney]

You can take the Cambridge English tests (eg KET, PET) in Thailand and they have indefinite validity.

Edited November 26, 2013 by bangkockney

[7by7]

Thanks for that, Bangkockney. I was unaware that there were now accredited test centres offering these tests in Thailand.

Do you know when they started?

[SirPaul]

You can take the Cambridge English tests (eg KET, PET) in Thailand and they have indefinite validity.

"indefinite validity" - This is how it should be. When you achieve a standard and have proven yourself through the process of being tested there simply is no argument that can allow anyone to state that you are not of that standard after a given period of time, especially when your environment is wholly in support of what you have been studying.

Earlier, I stated 'authorities' and it is now that I believe it would be those who have the say in the UK as to whether they fully trust any qualification gained in Thailand. It may of course not be a matter of trust, but more financial where there is a desire for those applying to further reside in the UK to have been on courses in the UK so the tuition fees and surrounding expenses take place in the UK and nowhere else.

I cannot help thinking that those in the UK who process applications simply do not trust Thai testing centres (even when they have been named as official centres). This is supported by the way Thai schools only validating there passes for two years. By doing this they are implying that a test taken in a Thai school has little value, it is akin to admitting that standards are not what they should be.

I appreciate the further posts here that demonstrate that if you live in Bangkok there is opportunity to study to a high level and gain a life-long qualification. However, for those living in Pattaya studying to any level above A1 is going to be challenging. The school recommended earlier in this thread, after enquiry, only teaches to A1. It would be nice to see an improvement in Pattaya so anyone who so desires can achieve higher standards.

Easy in not always the best option and from the start I have been advocating that learning English to a higher level is not just useful for getting the necessary permissions to stay in the UK, but the use for the individual is immense, giving them access to better employment opportunities, better way of life and more fulfilled time in the UK. I still maintain that having a test such as A1 is of no help to anyone.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

We only use Vantage Siam Bangkok the test is completed in a morning its a shame they don't have an office in Pattaya.

[7by7]

SirPaul, the approved test providers and the validity of their test passes are the same no matter where in the world one takes the test, not just in Thailand. Even if one takes the test in the UK.

Of course, not every approved provider offers their tests in every country.

Posts from members here whose partners have taken their test in the UK show that test fees etc. in the UK are substantially lower than those in Thailand.

A1 is the start, a basic test. As you are no doubt aware a higher standard in all four elements, speaking, listening, reading and writing, is required for ILR.

B1, or the equivalent, obtained in Thailand would, as long as the pass remained valid, be sufficient for ILR. Though the applicant would also have to take the LitUK test, which can only be done in the UK.

Differing opinions are fine; but please base you opinions on facts rather than assumptions.

Edited November 27, 2013 by 7by7