No new accounts at TMB for Americans

[Jingthing]

I think it's horrible. Right, schmights, but they certainly have the power. I am starting to feel the pull of Moloch back to the 'homeland'.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[JSixpack]

You really need an education on foreign affairs and banking.

Not the place. Stay on topic: no new bank accounts for Americans.

And our members don't accept education on any subject whatsoever. No mind here can ever be changed: everyone knows what he knows and continually repeats it.

Some of these statements are so ridiculous and without thought.

You must be Fresh Off The Boat here on the forum. The challenge is to find statements that aren't ridiculous and without thought.

It was my belief that we were all allies.

No. Find yourself a McDonald's or Starbucks thread and go to it if you wish.

[yoshiwara]

The thing is, not all Thai banks are singing from the same hymn sheet and there are so many banks in Thailand, that the list of alternatives will keep you going for years.

Bottom line is to have say 3 different bank accounts on the go at any one time and switch if and when the main one starts playing up. Above all it is a practical issue and absolutely no need to get hung up on the inequities of US policy. The anti-American crowd will jump into any and all discussions. Just swat them away and just get on with it.

[Naam]

I am an American, questions about America being asked. What are we thinking about? Would that be your question? Ask me, I'm a Ph.D and would be happy to discuss the American way! One stated something about warfare! Do you believe that we enjoy seeing our dedicated military soldiers die to protect others against terrorism or to assist in defending The sovereignty of other countries? Someone believes the US cares about NL? You really need an education on foreign affairs and banking. Are you so alienated against America? Some of these statements are so ridiculous and without thought. Why do people who live outside the US feel so superior? It was my belief that we were all allies. I truly believe that many have short memories.

Banking, the gentleman stated prior, Bangkok Bank. That would be correct answer, one is located in New York. I have a foreign currency account along with a savings account. I banking is also available. If traveling many of the countries prefer the the US dollar over the Thai baht. Foreign currency account alleviates that problem.

i wish i had a Ph.D. instead of my cheap and old world D.Sc. because if i had a Ph.D. i'd know all about foreign affairs and banking and for my travelling the US-Dollar would be the preferred currency over the Thai Baht. not to mention that mistake and embarrassment when i tried to pay for my lunch in Hong Kong with Angolan Kwanza.

p.s. if i had a Ph.D. i could also feel free and ridicule myself in a public forum whenever i please.

[MacWalen]

Very interesting indeed. Will not be suprised if other banks will do the same and close down existing accounts.

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[MacWalen]

I don't have PhD but it seems to me that US citizens are more and more closely monitored. Just imagined you did not file your returns and brought back 50,000 USD to US or transfered and now it became apparent you did not declere this. Would you get in trouble? My guess is yes, but I don't gave a PhD so could be wrong.

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Edited November 1, 2013 by MacWalen

[MacWalen]

What happens if you just dont declare anything and dont file no tax returns being an American citizen?

Edited November 1, 2013 by MacWalen

[yoshiwara]

What happens if you just dont declare anything and dont file no tax returns being an American citizen?

Ask some of the Swiss banks and they can tell you in detail.

[JimGant]

Will US banks give out information of foreign customers for the same types of tax purposes?

Yep. Many Intergovernmental Agreements (IGAs) re FATCA are reciprocal. For example, the IGA with Great Britain:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-us-agreement-strengthens-uk-ability-to-tackle-tax-evasion

The Government has this week signed an agreement with the United States to improve international tax compliance and implement FATCA.

This is the first agreement of its kind, benefiting UK financial institutions by addressing their legal concerns with complying with FATCA and reducing the burdens imposed on them. It also boosts HMRC’s ability to obtain information from the US to help in tackling UK tax evasion.

So, now US financial institutions are caught up in the FATCA red tape, with now having to add "nationality" as a data element to their 1099's, among other elements. With over 80 IGAs in various stages of negotiation, FATCA is certainly not going away. "The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has said that FATCA will be a model for global information exchange in the future." So much for a simplified world (and maybe so much for tax cheats).

In our neighborhood, Singapore is going forward with an IGA.

Singapore has reduced a lot of anxiety among financial institutions operating in its jurisdiction by making its position clear on Model 1 [iGA]. He said the major effect of Model 1 is that enforcement will primarily be local, that is, Singapore will enforce FATCA. Financial institutions based in the country will report information on their U.S. clients either to the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) or the Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore (IRAS), which will then pass that data to the U.S.

http://fatca.thomsonreuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/APAC-Singapore-becomes-first-ASEAN-state-to-commit-to-FATCA-intergovernmental-agreement.pdf

But, as the above article points out, Thailand will not have an IGA this year -- which probably means enhanced anxiety amongst its financial institutions, which had hoped for an IGA to clarify -- and simplify -- the situation. Hence, some banks may already be doing their own simplification -- by purging their business of Yankees.

But, no one ever confused the squared-away smarts of the Singaporean government -- with that of the Thai government.

[sustento]

You really need an education on foreign affairs and banking.

Not the place. Stay on topic: no new bank accounts for Americans.

And our members don't accept education on any subject whatsoever. No mind here can ever be changed: everyone knows what he knows and continually repeats it.

Some of these statements are so ridiculous and without thought.

You must be Fresh Off The Boat here on the forum. The challenge is to find statements that aren't ridiculous and without thought.

It was my belief that we were all allies.

No. Find yourself a McDonald's or Starbucks thread and go to it if you wish.

[Naam]

What happens if you just dont declare anything and dont file no tax returns being an American citizen?

some don't file and get away. but the (very) few i know have all dual nationality. an interested aspect related to this topic is that Americans who hold an additional citizenship and want to change their account data are asked to provide evidence that they gave up US citizenship.

i know of another case where a US citizen had acquired a British passport was forced by the bank to withdraw the General Power of Attorney of his wife because she still held a US passport.

[yourauntbob]

I think the Thai banks are getting paranoid over the reporting requirement. If you look at the reporting requirements for the taxpayer, if you are single, you have to report on Form 8938 the total value of all assets over $200,000.00 at the end of the year or assets of $300,000.00 anytime during the year. Joint accounts are $400,000.00 and $600,000.00 respectively. There is a reporting threshold of $50,000.00 which I can't understand as it differs from the higher amounts.

As I am single, I would have to have over 6 million baht in financial institutions here in Thailand. I can't ever conceive of any day having 6 million baht. Anyone who is having a problem with opening an account should talk to someone about the reporting requirement amounts. The summary of FATCA reporting for US taxpayers is available from the IRS web site.

I think this is something that our US ambassador should be involved with. She might be the only one that can be the convincing authority for those of us who are US taxpayers. I can't see the IRS going after my bank just based on my very small deposits here in Thailand. It would cost more for the paperwork than what they would be get out of me.

Summary of FATCA Reporting for US Taxpayer.pdf

And who is our ambassador supposed to "convince"? The Thai banks or the US Government? As you say, you don't have much in the Thai bank. Why should it take a gamble with the US Government just to have your business? If I were a Thai banker, I'd do the same thing, or, maybe require Americans to maintain an average balance of 5 million baht or more to make the reporting worthwhile.

The ambassador is supposed to be the link between the US government and Thailand but she is also one of us. How many of us are there that would lose our ability to use the banking system over here? Some places will not take a US credit card.

This is not just about one or two people. There are a lot of us over here. The FATCA law is mainly designed to catch tax evaders who might be laundering money, avoiding taxes on their assets, and just breaking the law. Do you honestly think the IRS is going to audit the Thai banks just to find small bank users? How many tax evaders are from other countries? We see on this web page the number of foreigners getting sent back to their home countries for all kinds of crime including tax evasion.

with the current administration, i believe they would audit just about anyone anywhere if there is a political reason to do so or they want to scare someone into silence.

[CaptHaddock]

What would be the source of a claimed right to live abroad for Americans? Not the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, for sure. Would such a right include the right to be free from double-taxation? If so, why?

You will just make your own life harder if you imagine that you are denied some right which you only imagined that you had. Those of us who live abroad have decided to do so in the full knowledge that we are placing ourselves between the cracks. Sometimes that will be to our advantage and sometimes not. We knew before we moved that there is no reason to expect the respective governments to cooperate to make matters convenient for us.

With respect to treatment of expats the US would be worse than Germany or France, but better than the UK. The Brits on NI are denied COLA increases, which is not the Social Security Administration's policy. It's too bad about having to pay income tax, but I would rather have the American policy than the British, especially considering that SS payments are more generous.

As far as FATCA goes I fully support the US intention to catch tax evaders since those are overwhelmingly rich Americans whose tax burden is unfairly light even if they were paying all they owe. It would be too bad if it turns out that we small fry can't have bank accounts here and that could possibly even drive some of us back to the US, an outcome which I would personally regret very much. But if that were to happen I would not feel that the US had somehow reneged on an implicit promise to me. We all decided to chuck our political clout when we left, didn't we?

This is troubling news. There are about 7 million American expats in the world. It will be rather ironic if masses of them are pressured "home" because of the blowback from these onerous regulations. America is supposed to represent freedom. Will that include freedom to live abroad? Expect many more Americans to give up their citizenship now.

Face it. Expats have pretty much ZERO political clout where it counts.

[Jingthing]

You're splitting hairs.

The concept of freedom includes freedom to travel abroad and freedom to live abroad.

If government policies strongly REPRESS that freedom, that's a sign of a more totalitarian state.

I'm not so paranoid (some people are) to think this is a conscious policy to force Americans back "home" but I think that's the direction these policies are taking in terms of CONSEQUENCES.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Jingthing

[fletchsmile]

I am an American, questions about America being asked. What are we thinking about? Would that be your question? Ask me, I'm a Ph.D and would be happy to discuss the American way! One stated something about warfare! Do you believe that we enjoy seeing our dedicated military soldiers die to protect others against terrorism or to assist in defending The sovereignty of other countries? Someone believes the US cares about NL? You really need an education on foreign affairs and banking. Are you so alienated against America? Some of these statements are so ridiculous and without thought. Why do people who live outside the US feel so superior? It was my belief that we were all allies. I truly believe that many have short memories.

Banking, the gentleman stated prior, Bangkok Bank. That would be correct answer, one is located in New York. I have a foreign currency account along with a savings account. I banking is also available. If traveling many of the countries prefer the the US dollar over the Thai baht. Foreign currency account alleviates that problem.

The statement someone was made was that welfare and warfare have bankrupted the US. Seems a reasonable one to me. The US is struggling with its debts - getting ever larger - and if it wasn't for the ability to just print money and issue more debt, because USD is the world's main reserve currency, then there's a very good chance they would be unable to pay that debt.

Key contributors to the US dire financial situation are welfare payments and the cost of wars.

I don't think anyone would suggest that the average American enjoys sending soldiers to their deaths. On the other hand many non-Americans don't believe that the US are getting involved in the affairs and wars of other countries for purely altruistic reasons as the world's guardian's of peace and protectors against terrorism. It's been clear over the last couple of decades or so that the US interest in wars is often as much one of self interest than being the world's saviour. Particularly when oil is involved or someone with a different belief system. Further that self interest is often not that of the average American people, but certain vested interests in various forms of power at the top of US society.

Unfortunately it seems the average American has failed to stop the rise to power of many undesirables in the American way of life, and many encroachments on freedom. No surprise that the many people in the rest of the world are therefore pushing back and saying we don't want these powers interfering in our lives. In the context of the thread, fair enough if the US government and IRS go after their own, but when they start interfering with everyone else's lives the rest of the world is quite entitled to push back and criticise

The phrase alienated against America is somewhat backwards. It's actually America that it alienating itself. This is the link to the thread. America is increasingly alienating itself. These financial activities are just one example.

In terms of superiority I don't think many people on the thread were implying that they are superior to Americans. What I would say though is that Asian countries like Thailand often resent the way the US considers itself to be superior, and often looks down on developing countries, sending the message that America knows best and its way is best. Unfortunately in the last couple of decades the US has made a lot of mistakes, while Asia is rising in confidence. Hence two good reasons they are speaking out more.

As for being allies, again while that is true historically, increasingly the US powers that be are seen more and more to be just acting in their own selfish interests. Would true allies for example be tapping the phones of their allies leaders? Is that conduct benefiting allies.

Let's face it, those in power in the US are out for themselves. The rest of the world is used and abused as they see fit to serve their own ends. In that rest of the world you could probably include your average American, as they have very little power these days in their own country

One message that is increasingly coming out in regard to the US powers that be is: change your ways. If not the rest of the world will change accordingly. USD is slowly losing its standing, as is respect for the country by many, and combined with the shift of the balance of power from West to East, it all points to a continuing decline in the US.

Edit: BTW The post is from an "ally". When your friends and allies are also pointing out things you are doing wrong, perhaps it's time to listen to their alternative points of view

Cheers

Fletch

Edited November 2, 2013 by fletchsmile

[canuckoverseas]

You're splitting hairs.

The concept of freedom includes freedom to travel abroad and freedom to live abroad.

If government policies strongly REPRESS that freedom, that's a sign of a more totalitarian state.

I'm not so paranoid (some people are) to think this is a conscious policy to force Americans back "home" but I think that's the direction these policies are taking in terms of CONSEQUENCES.

US tax reporting rules 'repress freedom' that is rather laughable. Anyone who has a USD denominated account can count themselves as one of the global privileged. Sure there are some strings attached, but that's the price you pay to use the global reserve currency. Nothing is free. Oh, and following the rules isn't so hard.

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[Jingthing]

Nope. The consequences of overreaching U.S. regulations resulting in banks refusing accounts of Americans is the repressive part. Demand citizen reporting sure but being so bossy internationally is problematical.

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[CaptHaddock]

For the taxpayer, reporting foreign bank accounts is no more repressive than reporting domestic ones. For the foreign bank, it is a cost of doing business in the US and with US citizens, just like paying US corporate taxes. If it's not worth it to them they can discontinue the business. Foreign banks hardly have a right to do business in the US.

Where is the repression?

Nope. The consequences of overreaching U.S. regulations resulting in banks refusing accounts of Americans is the repressive part. Demand citizen reporting sure but being so bossy internationally is problematical.

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[Jingthing]

This makes life harder for expats maybe forcing many home. That is the oppressive consequence. DUH!

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[connda]

Oh well. There are other banks set up for FACTA that will take their business.

[Jingthing]

Oh well. There are other banks set up for FACTA that will take their business.

I think it is very early to know which Thai banks will and which won't accept business with Americans once the new regs fully roll out. This is a story in progress.

[moe666]

I have a K-Bank account as well as a Bualuang Securities Brokeage account no problems. I report every year on my tax return and as the amounts are to low no action is required.

[rgs2001uk]

I am an American, questions about America being asked. What are we thinking about? Would that be your question? Ask me, I'm a Ph.D and would be happy to discuss the American way! One stated something about warfare! Do you believe that we enjoy seeing our dedicated military soldiers die to protect others against terrorism or to assist in defending The sovereignty of other countries? Someone believes the US cares about NL? You really need an education on foreign affairs and banking. Are you so alienated against America? Some of these statements are so ridiculous and without thought. Why do people who live outside the US feel so superior? It was my belief that we were all allies. I truly believe that many have short memories.

Banking, the gentleman stated prior, Bangkok Bank. That would be correct answer, one is located in New York. I have a foreign currency account along with a savings account. I banking is also available. If traveling many of the countries prefer the the US dollar over the Thai baht. Foreign currency account alleviates that problem.

The statement someone was made was that welfare and warfare have bankrupted the US. Seems a reasonable one to me. The US is struggling with its debts - getting ever larger - and if it wasn't for the ability to just print money and issue more debt, because USD is the world's main reserve currency, then there's a very good chance they would be unable to pay that debt.

Key contributors to the US dire financial situation are welfare payments and the cost of wars.

I don't think anyone would suggest that the average American enjoys sending soldiers to their deaths. On the other hand many non-Americans don't believe that the US are getting involved in the affairs and wars of other countries for purely altruistic reasons as the world's guardian's of peace and protectors against terrorism. It's been clear over the last couple of decades or so that the US interest in wars is often as much one of self interest than being the world's saviour. Particularly when oil is involved or someone with a different belief system. Further that self interest is often not that of the average American people, but certain vested interests in various forms of power at the top of US society.

Unfortunately it seems the average American has failed to stop the rise to power of many undesirables in the American way of life, and many encroachments on freedom. No surprise that the many people in the rest of the world are therefore pushing back and saying we don't want these powers interfering in our lives. In the context of the thread, fair enough if the US government and IRS go after their own, but when they start interfering with everyone else's lives the rest of the world is quite entitled to push back and criticise

The phrase alienated against America is somewhat backwards. It's actually America that it alienating itself. This is the link to the thread. America is increasingly alienating itself. These financial activities are just one example.

In terms of superiority I don't think many people on the thread were implying that they are superior to Americans. What I would say though is that Asian countries like Thailand often resent the way the US considers itself to be superior, and often looks down on developing countries, sending the message that America knows best and its way is best. Unfortunately in the last couple of decades the US has made a lot of mistakes, while Asia is rising in confidence. Hence two good reasons they are speaking out more.

As for being allies, again while that is true historically, increasingly the US powers that be are seen more and more to be just acting in their own selfish interests. Would true allies for example be tapping the phones of their allies leaders? Is that conduct benefiting allies.

Let's face it, those in power in the US are out for themselves. The rest of the world is used and abused as they see fit to serve their own ends. In that rest of the world you could probably include your average American, as they have very little power these days in their own country

One message that is increasingly coming out in regard to the US powers that be is: change your ways. If not the rest of the world will change accordingly. USD is slowly losing its standing, as is respect for the country by many, and combined with the shift of the balance of power from West to East, it all points to a continuing decline in the US.

Edit: BTW The post is from an "ally". When your friends and allies are also pointing out things you are doing wrong, perhaps it's time to listen to their alternative points of view

Cheers

Fletch

^^^^,

excellent post, what makes me laugh, some actually think they won the cold war, fact is Russia bankrupt itself first and has since moved on.

The ironic thing, America now bankrupt and has embraced the very principles it said it was fighting against.

[JimGant]

Not to worry. When Obama signed Fatcacare, didn't he say, "If you like your current foreign bank account, you can keep it."

[Jingthing]

I have a K-Bank account as well as a Bualuang Securities Brokeage account no problems. I report every year on my tax return and as the amounts are to low no action is required.

I don't think you understand. The game is changing now. Not for FBAR reporting levels but for requirements for all foreign banks to provide info the U.S. on all accounts of Americans. Can the American government force them to? No. Do they HAVE to have American accounts? No. This is a DEVELOPING story.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[Naam]

I have a K-Bank account as well as a Bualuang Securities Brokeage account no problems. I report every year on my tax return and as the amounts are to low no action is required.

I don't think you understand. The game is changing now. Not for FBAR reporting levels but for requirements for all foreign banks to provide info the U.S. on all accounts of Americans. Can the American government force them to? No. Do they HAVE to have American accounts? No. This is a DEVELOPING story.

JT, i think you are underestimating the power of the U.S. government.

[Jingthing]

I have a K-Bank account as well as a Bualuang Securities Brokeage account no problems. I report every year on my tax return and as the amounts are to low no action is required.

I don't think you understand. The game is changing now. Not for FBAR reporting levels but for requirements for all foreign banks to provide info the U.S. on all accounts of Americans. Can the American government force them to? No. Do they HAVE to have American accounts? No. This is a DEVELOPING story.

JT, i think you are underestimating the power of the U.S. government.

Some banks internationally are already refusing business with U.S. nationals. Surely there will be more as the enforcement kicks in. I am hoping not too many and that most U.S. expats will be able to cope with these changes. We'll see.

[4evermaat]

^^ i agree. No need to panic YET or feed the conspiracy buffs too much. It is worth keeping eyes on it though.

"Second best time to plant a tree is today" sent from note2 TV app

[pmarlin]

The OP gave us very little information on this so called change but yesterday I went with the wife to her bank, TMB. While there asked one of the customer service people and confirmed it with the branch manager that they welcome USA customers and I would have no problem opening a new account. This was on Sukhumvit Road in Bangkok.

[Pib]

The OP gave us very little information on this so called change but yesterday I went with the wife to her bank, TMB. While there asked one of the customer service people and confirmed it with the branch manager that they welcome USA customers and I would have no problem opening a new account. This was on Sukhumvit Road in Bangkok.

Sounds like the typical thing we've heard over and over in posts about opening a bank account--depends on the branch and/or individual. TIT