Senate meeting turns chaotic: Thai amnesty bill

[smileydude]

The fistfights that go on in the Taiwanese Parliament still make Thai Parliament look pretty civilized.

Its heartening to know that at least some senators can't be bought.

The ones that can should be ashamed.

[Mister Fixit]

Could anyone understand a word of that gobbledy-gook?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Could anyone understand a word of that gobbledy-gook?

Give him a break - his other 63 postings are probably excellent!!!

[easybullet3]

I scanned through the previous 4 pages, and I only found loads of people saying why people are on the streets. (opposition to the Amnesty Bill, and maybe something to do with a Euro ruling about a disputed Temple).

this is the first time I have heard mention that the WITHDRAWN BILL was NOT the Amnesty Bill, but 6 similar bills!!!

is that normal? I assumed that a Bill covers the subject of Amnesty.

would there really be a total of 7 similar bills? (6 of which were withdrawn, and 1 was passed).

so this 1 bill that was passed and given to senate, was just recently REJECTED by senate? and now its in the House of Representatives?

ok. Have I understood it correctly now ?

and.. to be exact, this ONE bill that is now going to the House of Representatives is the one that will give a BLANKET AMNESTY to EVERYONE?

(is there any way of extremely briefly telling me about the 'other 6 withdrawn bills' ? they were not blanket amnesty? or were they different aspects of the amnesty?

if its similar, then why was it not just ONE bill ??

(or is it a political tactic that if you release 7 bills, then maybe 1 will get through?)

maybe 6 bills to distract from the main one ?

A total of 7 amnesty bills existed, none of them to my knowledge contained a blanket amnesty. The one in question was changed (was amended) after its first reading to contain a blanket amnesty with the second and third reading happening in just one evening. The democrats had 6 MPs where were due to speak at the House but after 3 the speaker just ignore the rules and put it to the vote. It passed because there are more PTP MPs, the Dem's walked out before the vote but it would have passed anyway. The bill then goes to the upper house (senate) for supposed deliberation where it can either be passed, amended or rejected. It was rejected and so goes back to the lower house (HoR) but they cannot do anything with the bill for 180 days. The government has 'vowed' not to try and reintroduce the bill and YS said a few days back that she would not seek to reintroduce the bill in 180 days but those words do not mean she will not reintroduce the bill in 181 days.If the bill is reintroduced in 181 days and passes 'as is' through all three readings in the HoR as it did before then it does not have to go to the Senate again and can go straight for Royal approval (Like this in the UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_Acts_1911_and_1949). It would have been better for the senate to amend the bill to such a watered down state that nothing happens and then pass it. That way the PTP couldn't reintroduce it at a later date and force it through without the approval of the Senate. What I don't know is now the bill is back from the Senate, can the PTP do the same as the other 6 and remove it completely? If not then people will just have to trust the words of YS.

Thank you for the Very concise and informative answer

now I feel i am up to speed on things

[notmyself]

Thank you for the Very concise and informative answer

now I feel i am up to speed on things

Welcome.

I'd still like to know...

What I don't know is now the bill is back from the Senate, can the PTP do the same as the other 6 and remove it completely?

Some if the 6 were introduced by members (member bills) so the government couldn't withdraw them itself, they had to be withdrawn by the member themselves which happened no doubt after a few words from those in charge. I don't know if this particular bill emanated from a member or not but you have to remember it was amended massively by another member on the first reading before being forced through second and third reading and sent to the senate. Now the senate have rejected it and sent it back down is the member who started the bill allowed to take it back as they did with some if not all of the previous bills? Does the fact it has been to the senate and rejected mean the member who originally proposed the bill have the ability to quash it? Can they quash it only if it has not been amended? Can the member who suggested the amendment quash the amendment? I suggest all questions will be 'no'.

The PTP withdrew all the other bills but couldn't withdraw the one remaining bill once it had gone to the senate which is understandable. Now the Senate has thrown it back downstairs it is in Limbo. It's all very well for YS to say 'we' will not resurrect it but they can if they want to after 180 days, pass three readings in HoR and will go into law pending Royal accent without even having to go through the Senate. The whole thing is a scam, Thaksin playing the system.

[notmyself]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

[SICHONSTEVE]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

The whole exercise WAS to get Thaksin back - this is not possible now as he has blown it.

The best that Thaksin can hope for now is that his foolish actions have not destabilised this government enough to finish it off and Suthep is trying valiantly to do just this. I wish him all the luck in the world (Suthep that is)!!!

[easybullet3]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

The whole exercise WAS to get Thaksin back - this is not possible now as he has blown it.

The best that Thaksin can hope for now is that his foolish actions have not destabilised this government enough to finish it off and Suthep is trying valiantly to do just this. I wish him all the luck in the world (Suthep that is)!!!

How has Thaksin "blown it" ??

as was said before (by: "notyself"), the bill is back at the house of Representatives and it can be revived after 180 days).

also: can they not just MAKE a whole NEW bill ???

then they dont need to wait 180 days at all !!

[SICHONSTEVE]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

The whole exercise WAS to get Thaksin back - this is not possible now as he has blown it.

The best that Thaksin can hope for now is that his foolish actions have not destabilised this government enough to finish it off and Suthep is trying valiantly to do just this. I wish him all the luck in the world (Suthep that is)!!!

How has Thaksin "blown it" ??

as was said before (by: "notyself"), the bill is back at the house of Representatives and it can be revived after 180 days).

also: can they not just MAKE a whole NEW bill ???

then they dont need to wait 180 days at all !!

Of course he has blown it!!

Do you honestly think that he is going to be given another chance to introduce an amnesty bill of any description by the side door?

He, rather stupidly thought that he could get one of his lackey MP's to devise a bill that was was generally acceptable to most and then at the last minute change it to an entirely different bill including amnesty for every Tom, Dick, Harry and Thaksin.

He knew that he could ram-rod it through parliament in by-passing the opposition MP's as the speaker is not unbiased (as he should be) and he ignored parliamentary rules to do this.

As they have majority control of the senate it would sail through that and into law meaning "welcome back Thaksin"!!

What he forgot is that his lawyers and lawmen are imbeciles that don't know what they are doing whereas the Democrat's equivalents are highly educated people that could see what was happening a mile off.

This has nigh destabilised the government to a point whereby they may have to throw in the towel. Believe me, you won't see any amnesty bills introduced in the remainder of this parliament let alone the next as it is too much of a contentious issue!!

Thaksin had better get used to another decade outside of Thailand (if he liv.

[SICHONSTEVE]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

The whole exercise WAS to get Thaksin back - this is not possible now as he has blown it.

The best that Thaksin can hope for now is that his foolish actions have not destabilised this government enough to finish it off and Suthep is trying valiantly to do just this. I wish him all the luck in the world (Suthep that is)!!!

How has Thaksin "blown it" ??

as was said before (by: "notyself"), the bill is back at the house of Representatives and it can be revived after 180 days).

also: can they not just MAKE a whole NEW bill ???

then they dont need to wait 180 days at all !!

Of course he has blown it!!!

You won't see Thaksin back in his life time as there will be no more bills forthcoming in the remainder of this parliament or the next.

There won't be the need for a start. Just look at who it is SUPPOSED to benefit (but won't now as all 7 bills have had to be withdrawn) - the duped lackey red shirts. In say, 2 or 3 years time how many are still going to be festering in prison? My guess is close to zero. Ok, so why would there be the need for an amnesty under those conditions?

[jdinasia]

Ummmm Sichon

One bill can still be acted on. That is the bill that the senate just rejected and it can be acted on by the House alone in a 50%+1 vote in just 178 days. That means Thaksin will not want new elections before then.

Had the senate been acting wholly in the interest of all Thais it would have amended the bill and sent it back. The amendments would have only covered the non-armed attendees of the rallies and not corruption cases or the bosses of the rallies.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Ummmm Sichon

One bill can still be acted on. That is the bill that the senate just rejected and it can be acted on by the House alone in a 50%+1 vote in just 178 days. That means Thaksin will not want new elections before then.

Had the senate been acting wholly in the interest of all Thais it would have amended the bill and sent it back. The amendments would have only covered the non-armed attendees of the rallies and not corruption cases or the bosses of the rallies.

I don't think you get it!!!

The senate is acting for Thaksin and not the people of Thailand - they are incidental.

What do you mean they would have ammended the bill and sent it back, only covering the un-armed protestors.

That is EXACTLY what the first chosen bill did!! Thaksin tried to slip in an ammendment/revision to the bill covering everyone, hoping nobody would notice.

Not only that, but it would wipe out all his wrongdoings (and those of members of his corrupt parties) and with time enable him to be able to get his 40 odd billion back eventually!!

Funnily enough, he seems to have alienated everybody but himself, Yingluck and his dopey rice farmer MP's in his attempt at hoodwinking his subjects.

[notmyself]

but won't now as all 7 bills have had to be withdrawn

Nope, only 6 have been withdrawn which leaves 1 very much alive but just not moving. Just needs 3 readings in the house which it has already passed then Royal approval to be enacted.

I agree with some other things you have said about the PTP in that they wouldn't dare to try and pass it off but how can you be sure? YS said today (yesterday?) that the bill is suspended rather than withdrawn which at the very least suggests she / PTP has no intention of withdrawing the bill.

If people stop working or paying taxes, the country will come to a halt and the economy will be damaged. People should use their judgement. The government has suspended the amnesty bill. People should trust (the government) and stop their demonstrations, said Ms Yingluck.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/681208-pm-yingluck-warns-of-tough-action-against-tax-payment-refusal/

I would not put it past Thaksin to go all in with a losing hand and then blow up the table including himself rather than other people collect the chips.

[notmyself]

What do you mean they would have ammended the bill and sent it back, only covering the un-armed protestors. That is EXACTLY what the first chosen bill did!!

Would have been pointless. Better to have amended the bill to its original variant and then pass it.

[SICHONSTEVE]

What do you mean they would have ammended the bill and sent it back, only covering the un-armed protestors. That is EXACTLY what the first chosen bill did!!

Would have been pointless. Better to have amended the bill to its original variant and then pass it.

If Thaksin hadn't revised the bill to include himself in the first place (planned all along) then the original bill would have passed without problem and the red shirts would have been granted amnesty.

[easybullet3]

You have to remember that the whole object of this exercise is to get Thaksin back and nothing more. The object of making the Senate fully elected is to get enough people in there who can be paid off that any bill will be passed as in the HoR. If he can work it in such a way so as only he and red shirts get off the hook then he will but he cannot at the moment hence a blanket amnesty which was always going to piss off the red shirts because they have friends who were killed by the Dems trying to stop Bangkok being set alight. Those who where involved in killing their friends would also be given amnesty. Even if this bill can be quashed it will come up again sooner rather than later because he runs the country via his sister and he wants back... at any cost. A nihilist by all accounts.

A member posted on this thread or another as an answer to an earlier post of mine that there has to be blood. On reflection I'm not sure I would agree that there HAS to be blood but if anything is to change, there will be blood but nothing will change.

The whole exercise WAS to get Thaksin back - this is not possible now as he has blown it.

The best that Thaksin can hope for now is that his foolish actions have not destabilised this government enough to finish it off and Suthep is trying valiantly to do just this. I wish him all the luck in the world (Suthep that is)!!!

How has Thaksin "blown it" ??

as was said before (by: "notyself"), the bill is back at the house of Representatives and it can be revived after 180 days).

also: can they not just MAKE a whole NEW bill ???

then they dont need to wait 180 days at all !!

Of course he has blown it!!!

You won't see Thaksin back in his life time as there will be no more bills forthcoming in the remainder of this parliament or the next.

There won't be the need for a start. Just look at who it is SUPPOSED to benefit (but won't now as all 7 bills have had to be withdrawn) - the duped lackey red shirts. In say, 2 or 3 years time how many are still going to be festering in prison? My guess is close to zero. Ok, so why would there be the need for an amnesty under those conditions?

with all that money,, and with all the 'inside' friends that he has, I am sure that Thaksin (if he really wanted) can come back to Thailand by landing a plane at a military base or small airport.

i'm sure it can be done!

i wouldnt be surprised if he has been here MANY times already.

but of course he would not be allowed to be seen in public.

if he managed to get the amnesty bill though then he would be able to legally walk down the street and not worry about who sees him.

but really,,, i'm sure he has been here 'incognito' several times already.

I remember speaking to an NGO who worked at Poipet (to help young kids off the street and back into school) he told me that the kids used to walk along the river (below the bridge near the casinos) and walk down into thailand.

also: how about all the thousands of illegal burmeese here in Thailand ??

if thousands of poor people can get into thailand, then i'm sure its super easy for one of the richest men from Thailand!!!

especially an ex prime minister and his sister and family who must have friends in soooo many places.

i think I can safely say: "Yes, he has definitely been here and will come back many more times,, incognito".

anyone disagree with my thoughts?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Yes I disagree entirely!!!

Cute little story though, especially the bit about the kids walking down to the river under the bridge and into Thailand.

Makes you wonder why they bother getting wet and risking their lives in fighting horrendous undercurrents when you can simply go under the bridge!!!