Ugly restaurant practice in CM

[dundas]

I went to watch the Loy Katong festival last night.

Then it started to rain so my partner and I went into a cafe in Moonmuang Road. Then followed one my less pleasant experiences in Thailand.

We were welcomed quite graciously.

I asked if we could sit at the table near the sidewalk and the entrance, no problem.

Not two minutes later we were brusquely asked by another staff person to move to another table as "this table is reserved."

We sat there for a good ten minutes before another couple came in off the street.

"This table OK?" asked the man, looking at the "reserved" table. Of course!

The only difference? I am in my sixties and no longer young and beautiful. The young couple who were given the table were in their 20s.

Then I looked behind the bar to see the owner, a farang man who presumably has latched onto the latest restaurant trend: second class seating for older people.

He avoided all eye contact.

I suppose I should thank him, as the differential treatment was done so badly last night, it's raised my awareness. I will never agree to this kind of second-rate treatment again. I've read about it happening in Sydney, but I didn't expect to see it happening in CM.

There's something quite sad about foreign values being pushed onto Thai staff.

For me, some of the graciousness about Thailand disappeared in that experience.

[Genericnic]

Don't blame Thailand for what the western owner did. Thailand, as a whole, is still just as gracious as ever. Your experience is just one of the reasons I tend to stick with locally owned businesses rather than western owned businesses.

David

p.s. Carry an umbrella - TIT

Edited November 19, 2013 by Genericnic

[dundas]

You're right. I didn't see the guy until after the crime had been committed.

[jmccarty]

Shame on him. Support that guy by not going to his restaurant again!

[Lobo4819]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

[NancyL]

I wouldn't put all western restaurant owners into the same category. I saw quite the reverse at Sunday's Loy Krathong party at Dave's River Market. He had reserved the prime tables by the river for his long-time regulars -- most of us are old and none-too-pretty. I suspect most of those groups had bought their tickets early and it seems that they knew enough about Loy Krathong to arrive early.

The film company working on the movie The Coup had also reserved a large number of tables -- at least 40 or 50 places. Those tables were empty for a long time and finally about 15-18 people arrived -- all young, slim, beautiful Hollywood types. They seemed incredulous that they hadn't been given the prime tables near the river and that those tables were occupied by us oldsters. At the time, I was holding down our table for 8 by myself because others in our group were off launching their krathongs and khom loys. I made the mistake of saying to two of them they could stand by ourtable for a while, thinking they wanted to take pictures or something. Before I knew it, the table was swarmed with about a dozen impossibly thin, beautiful and rude people who glared at me from time-to-time wondering why I was sitting at "their" table. Finally, I got a little ugly and chased them back to their less desirable empty tables.

I should point out that Owen Wilson was not in this little mob -- he stayed at their assigned tables and got up to walk around and took advantage of the many chairs that Dave had set up near the river for those whose tables inside the restaurant didn't afford as good a view of the fireworks.

So please, don't brand Dave and River Market/Duke's as someone who only wants young, beautiful people hanging out at his places. He values repeat business.

Edited November 19, 2013 by NancyL

[dundas]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

We were paying customers.

I can't prove anything but everything that happened to us was consistent with the trend:

Farang owner

Initial welcome by Thai staff - very gracious, sit where you want.

Brusque removal because our table was 'reserved.'

Table stays empty for 10 minutes

Then is taken by a couple who went through the same motions that we had gone through in choosing that table.

If I look at it from a restaurant owner's perspective:

I want customers

I can lure people in if I have an attractive showcase

But I'm highly unlikely to tell older people that they will be treated differentially

So only the staff know about the seating policy - when I remind them.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dundas

[uptheos]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

We were paying customers.

I can't prove anything but everything that happened to us was consistent with the trend:

Farang owner

Initial welcome by Thai staff - very gracious, sit where you want.

Brusque removal because our table was 'reserved.'

Table stays empty for 10 minutes

Then is taken by a couple who went through the same motions that we had gone through in choosing that table.

If I look at it from a restaurant owner's perspective:

I want customers

I can lure people in if I have an attractive showcase

But I'm highly unlikely to tell older people that they will be treated differentially

So only the staff know about the seating policy - when I remind them.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course.

If the table stayed empty for 10 minutes and if it wasn't reserved, how did they know it wouldn't be requested by more elderly people or in fact just stayed empty?

[elektrified]

In Thailand being young, slim and beautiful/handsome, nicely dressed, nice hairstyle, expensive mobiles, etc. is No.1. You could live in a 2.5K THB per month rat hole rental unit, and have 5,000 THB in the bank. But if you are young, show up in a nice new, shiny car, slim and nicely dressed - that s what impresses people. That alone will get you the better table, the ladies, the boys, whatever. The older, unattractive family members (often quite rich) are locked away in a back room at home where no one can see them except for the one day a year out on Mother's or Father's Day.

OP if you don't know this, then you don't understand Thailand. And, furthermore with the changing demographics, farangs, especially older ones have become less important to Thailand's economy. Get used to it. These are changing times.

[Paangjang]

I would of done the same thing. You old guys are offesive to the eye, some might say an eyesore. If the establishment has any class, you should be kept out of sight.

[Chicog]

I think the Chang vest might have had something to do with it.

[Chiengmaijoe]

This gets my Daft post of the week award. He moved you because you are ugly? If you are self conscious about your appearance and want to judge people based on that then that is up to you, but since you never spoke to the guy then it is only supposition. That you are ugly is not under dispute, but the reason for moving you is. Even your "he avoided all eye contact" is dubious. He was probably busy, or maybe he recognised you as those occasional customers who, no matter how hard you try, are still going to find something to complain about. They are not too common but they are, unfortunately, very much more likely to be expats. Sad, but true.

Sometimes a restaurant reserves larger tables because giving them away to single customers then means they can"t accommodate a group of 4 or 5 if they only have two tables for two at different parts of the restaurant.

So let's say you have a table for four and a table of two as the only remaining tables. It would make sense to seat the couple on the smaller table so that you have room for 4 if they come next. So the new staff member, say, let's you sit on the big table , and then the experienced staff then see her mistake and nicely ask you to move to the smaller table. Nothing wrong with that assuming you haven't ordered food and it is only a request.

So now that the cafe has only one free table for 4 persons, what do they do if another couple arrive? Quite rightly they sit them on the table for 4. They were reserving it in case a larger group came, but now that it is the last table, you allow a couple to sit there. That's how places manage tables if they have limited space or they are busy.

Another reason for moving someone might be that they maybe just came in from the rain, not to particularly eat or drink, took the best table in the house and ordered a coke to share. That happens too. There are plenty of possible reasons as to why you were moved but if you want to assume the worst in people, your's is the best.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Chiengmaijoe

[Chiengmaijoe]

You're right. I didn't see the guy until after the crime had been committed.

There's further proof of your mentality, judging him based on his skin colour, and your use of the word 'crime' . It wasn't a crime it was a minor inconvenience that you took as a personal insult and you want to exaggerate it as if it was a major incident so that you come across as a victim. You are a victim, but only of your own insecurity and negative attitude.

If I were to judge you, as you judged him, ( ie based on very little information, but with preset ideas), I'd say you are a miserable old git who is only ugly because of the permanent scowl on your face and a negative, assume-the-worst type attitude. But since I've never met you, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I still don't believe your story though.

By the way, how was the food?

Edited November 19, 2013 by Chiengmaijoe

[limegreenpatato]

The best part about this thread is you think thai people wouldn't do the exact same thing to you.

[Paangjang]

I think the Chang vest might have had something to do with it.

Or the saleng parked up right out front with a crate of Archer in it...

[bigbamboo]

I can sympathise. I get angry when I see a scantily clad girl draped over the car I want to look at instead of a frumpy old bird slumped across the bonnet.

[Crossy]

Not two minutes later we were brusquely asked by another staff person to move to another table as "this table is reserved".

If this happened to me and there was no 'reserved' sign on the table I would simply leave, easy.

If they asked nicely, I would happily move to a smaller table.

[dundas]

I suppose the responses are split between those who have an idea of what I'm talking about and those who think i'm a negative whining whatever ...

I describe what I experienced. I don't feel the need to defend myself. You can call me for what you like.

And well, this is the first time I've aroused the famed TV mentality I've read about so often. Quite an experience!

Thank you all.

[zziffle]

It's always risky to imagine we can correctly intuit someone else's thinking and motivations. My best guess is that they wanted the empty table to be visible and obvious to people passing by to attract customers by showing that the place wasn't full. It seems a reach to jump to the conclusion that they thought you were too old or unattractive to be seen.

[AngelsLariat]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

We were paying customers.

I can't prove anything but everything that happened to us was consistent with the trend:

Farang owner

Initial welcome by Thai staff - very gracious, sit where you want.

Brusque removal because our table was 'reserved.'

Table stays empty for 10 minutes

Then is taken by a couple who went through the same motions that we had gone through in choosing that table.

If I look at it from a restaurant owner's perspective:

I want customers

I can lure people in if I have an attractive showcase

But I'm highly unlikely to tell older people that they will be treated differentially

So only the staff know about the seating policy - when I remind them.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Maybe the young couple who came in 10 minutes later was the party that reserved the table.

[uptheos]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

We were paying customers.

I can't prove anything but everything that happened to us was consistent with the trend:

Farang owner

Initial welcome by Thai staff - very gracious, sit where you want.

Brusque removal because our table was 'reserved.'

Table stays empty for 10 minutes

Then is taken by a couple who went through the same motions that we had gone through in choosing that table.

If I look at it from a restaurant owner's perspective:

I want customers

I can lure people in if I have an attractive showcase

But I'm highly unlikely to tell older people that they will be treated differentially

So only the staff know about the seating policy - when I remind them.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Maybe the young couple who came in 10 minutes later was the party that reserved the table.

Do people normally make reservations in cafe's?

[AngelsLariat]

Sounds like you may also be reading a lot into the situation. How can you tell specifically what someone was thinking and what their intent was? Had you ordered anything, or just using a table that paying customers may need?

We were paying customers.

I can't prove anything but everything that happened to us was consistent with the trend:

Farang owner

Initial welcome by Thai staff - very gracious, sit where you want.

Brusque removal because our table was 'reserved.'

Table stays empty for 10 minutes

Then is taken by a couple who went through the same motions that we had gone through in choosing that table.

If I look at it from a restaurant owner's perspective:

I want customers

I can lure people in if I have an attractive showcase

But I'm highly unlikely to tell older people that they will be treated differentially

So only the staff know about the seating policy - when I remind them.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Maybe the young couple who came in 10 minutes later was the party that reserved the table.

Do people normally make reservations in cafe's?

Maybe not normally but during Loy Kratong most places on Moon Muang are packed and you are lucky if you can get a seat at all. Making a reservation might increase your odds of getting a seat.

Besides that, he doesn't say the name of the place so it's hard to know whether it was a slummy bar or some place more upmarket. Sometimes people use the term "cafe" to mean "small restaurant", and I can think of some small restaurants in CM that do take reservations even when a major festival is not in progress.

But mostly what doesn't fit is that grubby old farangs would be discriminated against on Moon Muang Rd.

[beau thai]

Before you jump to the conclusion that you have experienced the 'famed TV mentality' do you think you may just have experienced a cross section of 'normal' people suggesting you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion at the restaurant (too)?

Seems a shame to change your view of 'Thai graciousness' when it is possible you have a misunderstanding of what was in the owner's mind when you were asked to move.

You know the old restaurant sign - 'If you like it here tell others, if you dont like it here tell us' Maybe you could have asked them at the time why you had to move -was it really reserved?.

But then here I go -TV mentality again....

I suppose the responses are split between those who have an idea of what I'm talking about and those who think i'm a negative whining whatever ...

I describe what I experienced. I don't feel the need to defend myself. You can call me for what you like.

And well, this is the first time I've aroused the famed TV mentality I've read about so often. Quite an experience!

Thank you all.

[Chiengmaijoe]

For a start, this is a trivial matter. He was asked to change table in a restaurant. Who hasn't and who first of all would be so bothered to want to tell the world, and more importantly, who would ever assume it was because you were ugly? My guess...... No one has ever assumed that they were asked to move tables for that reason, unless of course your name is John Merrick.

I asked my Thai wife what she thinks of a farang getting angry because he thinks the Thai staff asked him to change tables because he was ugly and she kept it short.......... "Stupid". The staff just laughed.

Seriously though, this is so far fetched I'm surprised that it hasn't been flagged as a troll. Could anyone first of all imagine the boss telling the staff not to let ugly customers sit on the best tables and secondly the staff actually doing it? Absurd. If the guy had simply posted a tale about having to change table in a restaurant, which in itself is trivial, and asked us to explain why we thought it was, I guarantee not a single soul would have considered the option of ugliness. I could give plenty of reasons as to why it may have happened, it is after all not such an unusual occurrence, but your theory is the most funny and stupid. If I were to go down that avenue, I'd be thinking 'smelly'. You did mention your advanced age, you're not by any chance losing control of your faculties are you?

If you really want a definitive view as to what we think then I think you know what you've got to do, don't you? Come on, don't be shy, you're probably not as ugly as you think, so do it, post a picture. Let's settle this serious matter of having to change tables in a restaurant for once and for all.

[Beetlejuice]

Not two minutes later we were brusquely asked by another staff person to move to another table as "this table is reserved".

If this happened to me and there was no 'reserved' sign on the table I would simply leave, easy.

If they asked nicely, I would happily move to a smaller table.

Totally agree.

I would never part with any of my money in an establishment where I was given a load of BS and treated like a leper.

What the OP could also have done, was to ask to see the owner`s work permit.

A few years ago I was in a well known Chiang Mai restaurant (won`t give the name) and while eating my meal was asked to move my motorbike from outside in the public road because the farang boss wanted to park there. I objected because I was parked on a public road and in the middle of eating my meal. Then all the staff ganged up on me aggressively nagging to move my bike. The time i got back inside after farting about outside I did not feel like eating anymore, just paid up and left, never to return. I could have just left at the time and not paid the bill, but then I thought, it`s not worth all the hassle if they called the police. But if this would have happened prior to my meal being served, I would have definitely had driven off.

It`s a case of arrogance on behalf of the owners, and as they say; once bitten, 100 times shy and better to keep to the devil we know, rather than take the chances and venture into these places.

[Chiengmaijoe]

Not two minutes later we were brusquely asked by another staff person to move to another table as "this table is reserved".

If this happened to me and there was no 'reserved' sign on the table I would simply leave, easy.

If they asked nicely, I would happily move to a smaller table.

Totally agree.

I would never part with any of my money in an establishment where I was given a load of BS and treated like a leper.

What the OP could also have done, was to ask to see the owner`s work permit.

A few years ago I was in a well known Chiang Mai restaurant (won`t give the name) and while eating my meal was asked to move my motorbike from outside in the public road because the farang boss wanted to park there. I objected because I was parked on a public road and in the middle of eating my meal. Then all the staff ganged up on me aggressively nagging to move my bike. The time i got back inside after farting about outside I did not feel like eating anymore, just paid up and left, never to return. I could have just left at the time and not paid the bill, but then I thought, it`s not worth all the hassle if they called the police. But if this would have happened prior to my meal being served, I would have definitely had driven off.

It`s a case of arrogance on behalf of the owners, and as they say; once bitten, 100 times shy and better to keep to the devil we know, rather than take the chances and venture into these places.

He didn't say he was treated like a leper, he was treated like an uglybug, much like you, judging by your picture.

The rest of your post almost everyone would agree with, except the asking to see the work permit malarkey. That would only make you look stupid and pathetic. You should be content with leaving that to them.

[jdinasia]

Or simply .. the owner was expecting friends and wanted to have a front row table for them. They show up and ask about that one and get seated. If you felt like you were treated shabbily then you should have moved on, but whining about it in a situation that you perceive to be negative but may have simply been the truth is kind of lame.

You never did seem to reply if you had ordered drinks or anything yet ..... Personally if I were the owner and thought you were just getting out of the rain and were likely to nurse a beer until the rain stopped, I would have done the same.

[thrilled]

I really don't see the problem.Didn't ya know the new 60 i's 40,not 80.Maybe you have A complex about your age.I feel good that I'm 61. As far as A younger couple getting A prize table.I just don't see A problem.If ya had A problem just walk out.You won't melt,trust me on that.

[Saan]

I wouldn't put all western restaurant owners into the same category. I saw quite the reverse at Sunday's Loy Krathong party at Dave's River Market. He had reserved the prime tables by the river for his long-time regulars -- most of us are old and none-too-pretty. I suspect most of those groups had bought their tickets early and it seems that they knew enough about Loy Krathong to arrive early.

The film company working on the movie The Coup had also reserved a large number of tables -- at least 40 or 50 places. Those tables were empty for a long time and finally about 15-18 people arrived -- all young, slim, beautiful Hollywood types. They seemed incredulous that they hadn't been given the prime tables near the river and that those tables were occupied by us oldsters. At the time, I was holding down our table for 8 by myself because others in our group were off launching their krathongs and khom loys. I made the mistake of saying to two of them they could stand by ourtable for a while, thinking they wanted to take pictures or something. Before I knew it, the table was swarmed with about a dozen impossibly thin, beautiful and rude people who glared at me from time-to-time wondering why I was sitting at "their" table. Finally, I got a little ugly and chased them back to their less desirable empty tables.

I should point out that Owen Wilson was not in this little mob -- he stayed at their assigned tables and got up to walk around and took advantage of the many chairs that Dave had set up near the river for those whose tables inside the restaurant didn't afford as good a view of the fireworks.

So please, don't brand Dave and River Market/Duke's as someone who only wants young, beautiful people hanging out at his places. He values repeat business.

You were lucky. About 6 weeks ago I emailed River Market wanting to book a table for 8 for Loy Krathong. No reply. So I sent another email which also failed to garner a response. I gave them away after that and did something else. Maybe someone told them I was old and ugly.

[Beetlejuice]

Not two minutes later we were brusquely asked by another staff person to move to another table as "this table is reserved".

If this happened to me and there was no 'reserved' sign on the table I would simply leave, easy.

If they asked nicely, I would happily move to a smaller table.

Totally agree.

I would never part with any of my money in an establishment where I was given a load of BS and treated like a leper.

What the OP could also have done, was to ask to see the owner`s work permit.

A few years ago I was in a well known Chiang Mai restaurant (won`t give the name) and while eating my meal was asked to move my motorbike from outside in the public road because the farang boss wanted to park there. I objected because I was parked on a public road and in the middle of eating my meal. Then all the staff ganged up on me aggressively nagging to move my bike. The time i got back inside after farting about outside I did not feel like eating anymore, just paid up and left, never to return. I could have just left at the time and not paid the bill, but then I thought, it`s not worth all the hassle if they called the police. But if this would have happened prior to my meal being served, I would have definitely had driven off.

It`s a case of arrogance on behalf of the owners, and as they say; once bitten, 100 times shy and better to keep to the devil we know, rather than take the chances and venture into these places.

He didn't say he was treated like a leper, he was treated like an uglybug, much like you, judging by your picture.

The rest of your post almost everyone would agree with, except the asking to see the work permit malarkey. That would only make you look stupid and pathetic. You should be content with leaving that to them.

This is something like the American TV series, Baywatch, a place where only the young and the beautiful were welcome on the beach, and probably had special beaches reserved outside the area for the middle aged guys, with their trousers rolled up, wearing braces to hold up the trousers and hankies on their heads as sun shields.

The same seems to have been applied in that ex-pat owned restaurant the OP visited, one needs to be young and attractive in order to be able to sit at a top table.

You are right and ugly old has beens like us should know our place in these establishments and accept being placed discretely out of the way in case the sight of us may offend other customers where being passed our prime is considered bad for business.

As I said previous, it`s arrogance and there is too much of that in business these days, the take it or leave it attitudes, as if they`re doing the customers a favour by serving them.

Sorry, but there is no justifications for this sort of haughtiness by business owners, especially those who find themselves on the receiving end of it. Luckily the Thai owned restaurants are known to show more respect towards their customers of all ages and appearances and probably best to leave the touristy restaurants to the tourists where good service is given a low priority next to the general turnover of in and out one off customers, many preferring the young up market image for appearances sake.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Beetlejuice