US citizens......do you FBAR?

[CMBob]

If the law applies to my Thai wife's 'property' and bank accounts, and apparently it has for other ex-pats, then my 'friend' it can be used against me. This law is wrong as it is being applied and the US is a bully.

Sgt (btw, thanks for your service), the law only requires you to report information. If you have signature authority over any account (including one with your wife or a stranger), it's required to be reported if all your foreign accounts meet the $10,000 threshold. It's easy to do (all you basically do is insert the account name, bank name, bank address, account number, and highest amount during the year).

When they're just trying to catch drug kingpins, money launderers, and big tax cheats, I agree that they shouldn't have required such a low threshold (seems to me that threshold of $100,000 or more might have been warranted) but that's what Congress did so we need to comply. You can download the form and it likely won't take you 10 minutes to fill out the form (it's easy).

Edited December 6, 2013 by CMBob

[Jingthing]

No. You don't download the form anymore. You fill it out and file online. ONLY choice now. This year I did that for last tax year and it was a nightmare. Yes the form itself was easy, it was the TECHNICAL problems with their websuite and filing process, the instructions were actually WRONG. Took several hours and had to call their customer service number as well. Will it be better for the current tax year? How should I know. I'll still do it whatever it takes.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

Nothing new about this rule, has been true for many years and I have been filing for as long as I can remember. I think it came into effect right after 9/11 ?

What has changed though is can now do it online.

Why would anyone would feel a need to avoid filing unless they are guilty of either tax evasion or other crime? Filing every year for over a decade has never caused the slightest problem for me.

[Jingthing]

FBAR isn't new, correct. But the U.S. requiring all global bank accounts to report back on Americans being enforced is new. There are also some new draconian laws with SWIFT. People are starting to report serious problems with SWIFT transfers they have done for many years. I am fearful at this point. Not because I've done illegal things financial but because all these rules are creating potential roadblocks to my financial life here. Unknown territory.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[CMBob]

No. You don't download the form anymore. You fill it out and file online. ONLY choice now.

Must be something new for tax year 2013 as I downloaded it, filled it out, and mailed it in this past May (as I've done in prior years). It's even easier if it's all online now.

I'm guessing (but will find out this coming spring) that the 8938 form is still required to be filed with one's tax return. Either way, fairly easy to do.

[As for SWIFT transfers, I've had no problems doing those although the last one I did was in August of this year. Anyone who's reading this actually ever have a problem handling one of those transfers?]

Edited December 6, 2013 by CMBob

[maxman71]

The requirement to file the FBAR is just the beginning, depending upon your circumstances. You may also be required to file Form 8938 with your 1040, while the FBAR is filed separately by June 30 for the prior year. Form 8938 is a relatively new form which became required starting for tax year 2011, and this form is required if you have ownership of certain foreign assets.

And if you also have at least 10% ownership in a foreign business, such as a Thai Limited Company, foreign trust, etc., then you are required to file form 5471, which also includes Schedule O, Form 926 and associated statements.

The law that was enacted in 2010 by Congress called FATCA is the law that requires foreign banks to collect US citizens' and Green card holders' account information, which includes, balances and ALL transactions in the account(s). FATCA is the law that is causing a lot consternation among foreign banks, as if the foreign banks don't comply, they are subjected to a 30% withholding on all transactions that pass through the US financial/banking system. ASEAN countries which includes Thailand, have reportedly agreed to comply with FATCA starting sometime in 2014.

The FBAR requirement has been on the books since 1974 but has not been seriously enforced until 2009, when the IRS began offering partial amnesty programs for those who have not been filing in the past when they were required to do so.

So if you have not been reporting in the past and you are required to do so, the chances of getting caught are rapidly increasing with the implementation of FATCA. And the penalties are pretty draconian; ignorance is not an excuse. Info on all of this has been all over the US news and also foreign newspapers including the BKK Post, Nation, HK and Singapore newspapers for the last several years, and it has been discussed on this forum numerous times.

Very early in Obama's presidency after his first election, he was quoted as saying he intends to "mine the expats" to bring in more tax revenue. The stats I have read concerning the number of FBAR's the IRS is receiving indicates there is still a lot of expats who are not in compliance and the IRS is going to continue to turn up the heat to flush them out. Bear in mind also that these filing requirements are not just for US citizens and Green Card holders living overseas; these laws also apply if you are living in the US.

If you need to get up to speed on all this, Google FBAR, FATCA and IRS offshore bank account reporting amnesty. That will keep you busy for awhile.

[Jingthing]

Yes the requirement to file FBAR online is now in effect (if you need to file FBAR). Last year it was optional. Cheers.

[sgtsabai]

Jingthing, agree with your last post. Not so much the reporting, it is the horror stories, it is the "unknown unknowns" that are worrying and the US forcing foreign banks to bow to US government.

[maxman71]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

Thailand is a member country of ASEAN, and ASEAN has agreed to comply with FATCA and Thailand specifically has agreed to comply. While there may be some Thai banks that will reject US citizen/US Green Card holders' accounts, some will still accept them, but probably charge a fee for such accounts as a result of all the reporting the bank will need to do for the IRS.

[Suradit69]

For a US citizen, avoiding the need to file an FBAR is one of the great benefits of the 65K per month route. Even if you properly comply, the IRS has been alerted that you maintain accounts in a foreign bank which is better avoided if possible.

I have filed it when needed. I believe the $10,000 is a fairly recent development, it used to be that one filed as long as one had a bank account or financial interest in/signature on something something (however it is worded) regardless of the balance or maybe the maximum balance was lower ... I don't recall.

I've always used TurboTax and it churns out the form if it's required and when I had foreign earned income it did the needful for the income exclusion etc.

Recently have been using the monthly income letter for the retirement extension and my bank account hasn't gone above $10,000, although it's close right now so I better double check, but I have had bank accounts in one country or another for nearly 40 years without it causing any problems for me with the Treasury Dept . Don't see the filing as any big burden and really don't care what Big Brother knows.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Suradit69

[Jingthing]

The exchange rate is based on the last day of the year so if you're cutting it close you might not know for sure until the end of the year.

[sgtsabai]

Thanks maxman 71. The really scary part is the "ownership of certain foreign assets". I have read more than several accounts where the US gov't has considered an ex-pat's wife's holding (i.e. house) the same as belonging to the ex-pat even though it was 100% in her name. In those cases there was no forgiveness for not knowing to report and the penalties were severe. From all I have read, there is no indication of these laws being used against the rich plutocrats and/or drug dealers but they are being used against everyday ex-pats. Kinda' like that Medicare I can't use even though I've paid into it since it's inception, it's like "we'll teach you to dare to live in another country".

Opps Jingthing, it would be your next to last post unless you've posted again since I started this reply.

[meechai]

The problem the way I understand it is this..............

The US in its usual overreach in the name of its war on Terror

has asked all foreign banks to comply with reporting to them any US account holder.

That is a ton of info & may never be used until there is a question about you.

Then it is there for them to see.

So if this is the case why then also ask us to report what they already know?

It is a snare again if your name comes up & they need a snare they can say

"oh in 2011 we see by Bangkok Banks report on you that you had more than 10k in

Thailand for 30 days... a foreign bank & you did not report it"

Ok so as others have said a total intrusion of privacy but we good little sheeple

will knuckle under as we always do. Like JT does not want to lose his freedom to live in Thailand so he gives

up a portion of it or his privacy in many ways

Fine no problem & I too filed.

BUT.............here is where even we good little sheep may eventually have a problem.

The banks get what out of all this increased paper work & threats from the US? They get to pay us interest?

Does that pay their employees?. As US citizens we know how onerous the the US paper work

can be. Now imagine a Thai bank with little to gain being told they have to file a paper for each US citizen

who holds an account at that bank?

I would not blame the banks for just saying..." Hey no more US citizens allowed to open accounts here as it is just

too much hassle to be hassled by the US & do all this paper work for what? The privilege of holding 10-20k USD from these expats?"

Because the threat from the US is probably this.... Any foreign banks not complying will not be allowed to receive wires from the US

& probably a host of others services like MasterCard/Visa etc. So someone like Bangkok Bank will comply because they have a Bangkok Bank New York

& want that connection. But others like Ayudhya, Kasikorn, TMB etc that do not have a US presence whats in it for them?

Easier to just say no more US account holders as it is too much trouble to comply. They retain their ability to receive US wires etc

as they are not breaking any rules. There is no rule that says they have to open account for US citizens just report those that do.

This is where the future problems might develop. But as long as one like Bangkok Bank exists it will still run

for expats needing an account for visa purposes. But if everyone else is forced to leave other banks how long can Bangkok Bank put up

with the onerous regs by themselves as all US expats may need to use the only US complying bank in Thailand.

This is not a Thailand problem it is a USA problem & we all need to write our representative in the US & make them aware

& ask for help. Lest they throw us out with the bath water in yet another fear based knee jerk reaction

Edited December 6, 2013 by meechai

[meechai]

Thanks maxman 71. The really scary part is the "ownership of certain foreign assets". I have read more than several accounts where the US gov't has considered an ex-pat's wife's holding (i.e. house) the same as belonging to the ex-pat even though it was 100% in her name.

If the wife is not a US citizen what she has will never be allowed on the US radar.

Thailand Will NOT divulge info on Thai citizens to the US

[Jingthing]

U.S. expats have almost no political influence in the U.S.

But here is the one lobby group that is doing what it can:

http://americansabroad.org/

Seriously, ANY attention we are getting is likely coming from this group and only this group.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

I've had to pay taxes my whole life, so I'm all for anything that helps catch the cheaters.

As previously indicated, all you report are accounts that you have signing authority over, not your wife's accounts or property.

If you have singing authority on an account at your work, even if it's not your money, you have to file.

As far as the difficulty associated with Thai banks submitting reports to the US, don't they already have to generate a report each year for taxes anyway? Does not seem like much of an issue to me, and I don't doubt they'll comply, as they should.

[JimGant]

I have read more than several accounts where the US gov't has considered an ex-pat's wife's holding (i.e. house) the same as belonging to the ex-pat even though it was 100% in her name. In those cases there was no forgiveness for not knowing to report and the penalties were severe.

Not sure what you read (sounds more like war stories from a militia bar), but neither FBAR nor FATCA reporting include such tangible assets as YOUR home and car, let alone such tangibles owned SOLELY by your wife. The reporting is only interested in "certain financial assets" -- to include jointly owned financials.

And for FATCA reporting for expats (Form 8938, to attach to your Form 1040), the threshold for single filers is $200k, or $400k if filing jointly (pretty high threshold, IMO). And, again, they're not interested in your home or car values (but unlike FBAR reporting, they do have line items to identify any earnings from such holdings).

If you still live over 30 days/yr in the States, the thresholds drop to $50k and $100k, as the FATCA dragnet is more interested in offshore holdings, not holdings by expats in their country of residence. (I guess if Thai banks could certify that you were a full-time resident, they too could raise the reporting threshold from $50k.)

Edited December 6, 2013 by JimGant

[rotary]

Looks like the USA is attempting to make the old communist eastern block look like a free society.

[jaideeguy]

Assuming that I have been filing my US taxes religiously and legally for the 2+ decades I've lived in Asia, using well qualified US tax preparers [2 with doctorates in accounting] and they did not inform me of this FBAR at any consultations or interviews. It was just recently brought to my attention.

From [my failing] memory, I have only had an amount over the $10k for the last 3 years for immigration purposes and that money was gifted to me here in Thailand directly from another Thai account................not directly from the US.

Do I have to report?? and if I do report, what would the fines and/or penalties be??

Also, years ago, I may have exceeded the $10k for very brief periods while in the process of purchasing land/vehicles and building houses from funds sent from my accounts in the US.

Does that make me in violation of FBAR??

[phuketrichard]

any time u have over $10 K in a foreign bank acount (S) EVEN for one hour you need report.

FBAR, the Foreign Bank Account Report or Form TD F 90-22.1 is due by June 30th each year. Every “United States person” who has one or more foreign bank account(s) which at any point during the year reached an aggregate balance of over $10,000 is obliged to file a report with the US Treasury Department listing all foreign accounts.

The IRS recently clarified that for the FBAR filing due 30 June 2009, the term “‘United States person’ means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.” This was a temporary retreat from revised instructions previously issued requiring FBAR filings by any person “in and doing business in the United States,” which casts a very wide net.

These regulations became effective March 28, 2011, and apply to FBARs required to be filed with respect to foreign financial accounts maintained at any time during calendar year 2010

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-FBAR

Fines are stiff, http://www.forbes.com/sites/irswatch/2013/11/25/fbar-revised-irs-penalty-appeals-procedures/

[jaideeguy]

My last post was hypothetical and assuming that someone was in that position, what would the prudent thing to do for that person to get into the FBAR system and clear things up or should they just continue to plead ignorance of the law [which they were].

[sgtsabai]

meechai, my wife has a US taxpayer # and has been included as a dependent on my income tax since we married. Who do you guys think is paying for 'our' (her) house and 'our' truck? JimGant, I did not keep the reports, real people, real names of ex-pats being persecuted for their wife's holdings and I'm not going to research the articles again. I don't read right wing militia crap propaganda. As most states in the US consider all property obtained after marriage as 'community' property (the crooked judge in my divorce in the states said she considered my inheritance as community property, illegal but she did it anyway). I believe the US gov't will consider what ever they please as 'your' assets and if some petty bureaucrat decides they want a piece of your ass, has a bad day or you speak too loudly against the gov't and piss somebody off they can/will come after you one way or the other. Right/wrong means nothing to them, neither does justice or the law. US prisons are full of poor people, not Wall Street criminals, banksters and CEOs or their lap dogs in Congress and the White House.

[maxman71]

JingThing touches upon another possible dimension of all these requirements (old and new) for US Citizens and US Green Card holders. And that is the possibility the US gov't is preparing for some nastiness in the US financial system. It doesn't take a Ph.D in Finance or Economics to understand the US cannot sustain its' current debt spending habits that have been on-going for 3+ decades. Consider this: the NSA is near completion of a massive data storage/analysis facility in Utah that is capable of tracking everything everyone does digitally and covers all US persons and probably a lot of foreigners. The IRS also has tremendous abilities to track individuals' domestic bank accounts, credit card usage, loans, spending habits, etc. These FBAR and other offshore banking and asset reporting requirements are efforts to ensure the Powers That Be know where every dime is that everyone has.

I have read theories and predictions by numerous bloggers that say at some point the US dollar will collapse and cease being the world's reserve currency. One blogger I know who has been pretty accurate in the past with his long term economic trend predictions states that the US will hit a "debt wall" in about 9-10 years caused by the inability of the US Treasury to finance debt (i.e. selling US treasuries) at an interest rate it can afford to pay and still fund basic government operations.

So how does all the above relate to FBAR reporting and disclosure of foreign assets ??? In the event these predictions were to come to pass, the US could "replace" the US dollar with some other form of funny money and essentially confiscate all existing US dollar accounts and make the swap. They could also extend this swap to US persons with accounts overseas in another currency. Further, many believe the banking crisis in Cyprus a couple of years ago served as a test case for a "bail-in", as opposed to a government/taxpayer "bailout". The ECB and IMF created a "solution" to the Cyprus banking debacle by means of confiscating a certain percentage of depositors' funds to help cover the banks losses. The more money a given account had, the higher the percentage that was confiscated. The way the ECB and IMF spun their actions was the assertion that a lot of wealthy Russians and Greeks had parked large sums of cash in Cypriot banks to avoid taxes among other reasons. So the narrative was they were taking from "bad people" to save the banking system. In reality, it wasn't just the bad people who coughed up their money.

It is theorized that in the event of another financial system/banking crash, this "bail-in" method will be applied. And they will grab every nickel they can get their hands on. I am not saying this is inevitable or a certainty. But I do think the probability of such actions occurring are greater now than ever before. Many will scoff at such a notion because something like this has never before happened in the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave." But just ask people who have lived through financial, social and political upheavals in other countries; they will tell you it is VERY possible. The general US populace has become so dumbed-down, and spoon fed garbage from the educational system and media, they can't think for themselves. Many of them are like mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed (s)_hit, and they think they are being fed chocolate...

[maxman71]

Assuming that I have been filing my US taxes religiously and legally for the 2+ decades I've lived in Asia, using well qualified US tax preparers [2 with doctorates in accounting] and they did not inform me of this FBAR at any consultations or interviews. It was just recently brought to my attention.

From [my failing] memory, I have only had an amount over the $10k for the last 3 years for immigration purposes and that money was gifted to me here in Thailand directly from another Thai account................not directly from the US.

Do I have to report?? and if I do report, what would the fines and/or penalties be??

Also, years ago, I may have exceeded the $10k for very brief periods while in the process of purchasing land/vehicles and building houses from funds sent from my accounts in the US.

Does that make me in violation of FBAR??

If the account(s) are in your name and exceed the 10K aggregate threshold, yes you have to report them regardless of how you came to obtain them. The IRS has an on-going partial amnesty program to get people to report their offshore accounts. Your claims that you were not advised of the reporting requirements by your "well-qualified" tax preparers will only get you so far in avoiding penalties; it may result in reduced penalties. If you reported all your income accurately, the IRS may not take too harsh a path with you.

However, if the IRS finds you before you come forward to them, all bets are off and they're likely to take you to the woodshed for a good whipping. I suggest you identify a tax professional who is well-versed in these matters and have them walk you through what options you have, which unfortunately I don't think are many.

[maxman71]

U.S. expats have almost no political influence in the U.S.

But here is the one lobby group that is doing what it can:

http://americansabroad.org/

Seriously, ANY attention we are getting is likely coming from this group and only this group.

Americans Abroad was instrumental in relieving expats of the requirement to have health insurance under Obamacare. The early drafts of the Obamacare legislation did not exclude expats from this requirement and would have resulted in expats who lived overseas to get insurance in the US and obtain no benefit from it. As a result of an uproar from expats (myself included; I placed many calls to my elected reps in Congress and signed an Americans Abroad petition), the final Obamacare draft excluded expats who met the 330 day "physical presence test". That is, if they are out of the US for at least 330 calendar days in a given year, they are presumed to have "essential medical care" somewhere else and are not required to enroll in Obamacare. Americans Abroad was credited with getting this situation in front of the right people in Congress in a timely manner.

As an aside, can any of you imagine getting online in the LOS and trying to navigate this train-wreck of a healthcare website and plan???

[JLCrab]

Just to note in response to some of the above posts that the US debt is around $US 17 trillion while the US has proven domestic and offshore fossil reserves in the $US 150 trillion range.

[meechai]

meechai, my wife has a US taxpayer # and has been included as a dependent on my income tax since we married. Who do you guys think is paying for 'our' (her) house and 'our' truck?

Please dont misunderstand my post.

The US will happily accept any info you want to give them.

All I was saying is folks who are not US citizens are not obliged nor traceable

Having a US tax number is fine for when she worked in the US & yes that

was so she could give her cut of her wages over in taxes.

Has nothing to do with what she has in her own country nor even how she obtained it.

Again feel free to give the US anything you want info wise from you & your wife.

It is not my concern nor business.

if some petty bureaucrat decides they want a piece of your ass, has a bad day or you speak too loudly against the gov't and piss somebody off they can/will come after you one way or the other. Right/wrong means nothing to them,

Pretty sad state of affairs isn't it?

Edited December 7, 2013 by meechai

[mogandave]

Assuming that I have been filing my US taxes religiously and legally for the 2+ decades I've lived in Asia, using well qualified US tax preparers [2 with doctorates in accounting] and they did not inform me of this FBAR at any consultations or interviews. It was just recently brought to my attention.

From [my failing] memory, I have only had an amount over the $10k for the last 3 years for immigration purposes and that money was gifted to me here in Thailand directly from another Thai account................not directly from the US.

Do I have to report?? and if I do report, what would the fines and/or penalties be??

Also, years ago, I may have exceeded the $10k for very brief periods while in the process of purchasing land/vehicles and building houses from funds sent from my accounts in the US.

Does that make me in violation of FBAR??

There are no fees or penalties if you file. If one bas been filing US federal taxes each year and has not been cheating, there would be no downside to filing the FBAR.

[mogandave]

meechai, my wife has a US taxpayer # and has been included as a dependent on my income tax since we married. Who do you guys think is paying for 'our' (her) house and 'our' truck?

Please dont misunderstand my post.

The US will happily accept any info you want to give them.

All I was saying is folks who are not US citizens are not obliged nor traceable

Having a US tax number is fine for when she worked in the US & yes that

was so she could give her cut of her wages over in taxes.

Has nothing to do with what she has in her own country nor even how she obtained it.

Again feel free to give the US anything you want info wise from you & your wife.

It is not my concern nor business.

if some petty bureaucrat decides they want a piece of your ass, has a bad day or you speak too loudly against the gov't and piss somebody off they can/will come after you one way or the other. Right/wrong means nothing to them,

Pretty sad state of affairs isn't it?

I guess it depends on whether one is a tax payer or tax recipient. The taxpayer ID numbers allows people that actually pay federal income taxes to file a joint return with their Thai spouse and declare their children dependents.

[thailiketoo]

Assuming that I have been filing my US taxes religiously and legally for the 2+ decades I've lived in Asia, using well qualified US tax preparers [2 with doctorates in accounting] and they did not inform me of this FBAR at any consultations or interviews. It was just recently brought to my attention.

From [my failing] memory, I have only had an amount over the $10k for the last 3 years for immigration purposes and that money was gifted to me here in Thailand directly from another Thai account................not directly from the US.

Do I have to report?? and if I do report, what would the fines and/or penalties be??

Also, years ago, I may have exceeded the $10k for very brief periods while in the process of purchasing land/vehicles and building houses from funds sent from my accounts in the US.

Does that make me in violation of FBAR??

There are no fees or penalties if you file. If one bas been filing US federal taxes each year and has not been cheating, there would be no downside to filing the FBAR.

Wouldn't there be a penalty for each year since 2010 that he did not file FBAR? 1/2 the amount of the account or some such amount. Taxes are a separate issue as I understand it. If you don't file to avoid taxes the penalty may be less but not necessarily so. I think I read that in Forbes.

Edited December 7, 2013 by thailiketoo