Establish People's Council, or no Election: Suthep

[trucking]

' He insisted to the delegates that such move will not affect the national economy, since similar incident has happened in the era of Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn.'

Hmm that would be the Thanom Kittikachorn ........one of the ' three tyrants '

Posted on February 13, 2013 by jfl

From Getting away with murder in Thailand : state violence and impunity in Phatthalung

The three Thai tyrants : Thanom, Praphas, Narong

In February 1975, student activists exposed a series of brutal murders of citizens by the Communist Suppression Operations Command (CSOC) and other state security forces that had taken place two and a half years earlier in Phatthalung province in Thailand. The thang daeng, or “red drum,” killings gained their name from the method of killing employed. Accused of engaging in communist activities or tacit support for them, citizens were arrested, or simply taken, in large sweeps across districts throughout the province and brought to detention camps for interrogation. While some detainees were released after being interrogated, others were tortured and then killed. At night, after being beaten until unconscious or with irons around their necks, individual citizens were placed into empty two-hundred-liter oil drums at the edge of the detention camps, doused in oil, and then burned alive. While the bodies were burning, truck engines were revved to partially mask the screams of those who were being murdered. The engines only partially masked the evidence of what was occurring, because those who survived recalled both the screams and the sounds of the engines. Villagers and students estimated that several thousand people in Phatthalung, perhaps as many as three thousand, were killed as alleged communists in this manner.

Now dead thankfully :

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/18/us/thanom-kittikachorn-ex-thai-leader-92.html

Still we can see who inspires Suthep in his meglomania and how he would like to deal with people in his Absolute Democratic utopia

Edited December 13, 2013 by trucking

[Boxclever]

The comparison of Suthep's 'People's Council' with the Grand Council of Mussolini is more than apt- almost uncanny,

And elections can be held under such a system- as Sondhi L earlier suggested and Suthep has promised. Each occupation could elect and forward a reprentative to the grand council. Each state department could do the same. There would be no corruption because all elected representatives could be screened by the appointed component of the regirme- who themselves are good people- (If they weren't they wouldn't be appointed by the good people doing the appointing).

This is a kind of Democracy- it is Fascist- (why beat around the bush?)- and it includes elections. Bear in mind that under Stalinism, there were constant elections in the old USSR- representatives of "The People'l were permitted to vote on certain issues. (Such as where to erect a new stature praising Stalin).

I think you are confused - just another misguided imagination

This council will only be in place to carry out some very needed reforms, once their job is complete then free nationwide elections will be held a far cry form anything you have stated above

The reforms you are talking about are to make 30% of the senate seats ONLY available to people selected by the PCAD. These seats will not be open to elected members, only people endorsed by PCAD. This would give the PCAD the absolute balance of power no matter what party got the majority vote.

You can take a guess who the main government portfoilios would go to.

That's why the army is not buying this.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Boxclever

[Sing_Sling]

The Dems don't win elections because Thaksin is so corrupt,

No. The Dems don't win elections because they don't get enough votes.

totster

Whether one likes that fact or not . . .

The comparison of Suthep's 'People's Council' with the Grand Council of Mussolini is more than apt- almost uncanny,

And elections can be held under such a system- as Sondhi L earlier suggested and Suthep has promised. Each occupation could elect and forward a reprentative to the grand council. Each state department could do the same. There would be no corruption because all elected representatives could be screened by the appointed component of the regirme- who themselves are good people- (If they weren't they wouldn't be appointed by the good people doing the appointing).

This is a kind of Democracy- it is Fascist- (why beat around the bush?)- and it includes elections. Bear in mind that under Stalinism, there were constant elections in the old USSR- representatives of "The People'l were permitted to vote on certain issues. (Such as where to erect a new stature praising Stalin).

I think you are confused - just another misguided imagination

This council will only be in place to carry out some very needed reforms, once their job is complete then free nationwide elections will be held a far cry form anything you have stated above

You seem to be incredibly naive . . .

[Zolt]

What will these much needed reforms be? Who will be making them, Suthep? Laughable. Whatever reforms are made, even if vote buying, ( by all sides), is eradicated, in any one person-one vote election, the current government will win again hands down. Suthep and his backers know this, that is why he says he will not allow the election to go ahead in February. The only reforms he will be interested in is gerrymandering, to somehow nullify the majority vote by any means he can. If you honestly believe that once he and his few hundred of the self appointed great and good have got their grubby hands on power they will hold free nationwide elections, knowing that the result would be their annihilation at the ballot box, you are clearly capable of believing six impossible things before breakfast!

Gerrymandering alone won't cut it unless he gets rid of the proportional vote. I think the most likely thing Suthep has in mind is a variation of PAD's new politics, with 70% of the house appointed, 30% elected.

Although good point about vote buying. If the PTP were smart, they'd already have taken steps to eliminate it and punish it more harshly. It may benefit them, but in the long run it benefits their opponents much more by discrediting the election process. They have enough solid support in the North and Northeast to win elections without that. (If they manage to defuse the rice scheme blowing up in their face, that is)

In addition to the existing provisions, I think solid jail time without parole for the person handing out the bribe, and a heavy fine for bribe takers should dissuade enough people that it would no longer be a large scale problem.

[Emptyset]

What will these much needed reforms be? Who will be making them, Suthep? Laughable. Whatever reforms are made, even if vote buying, ( by all sides), is eradicated, in any one person-one vote election, the current government will win again hands down. Suthep and his backers know this, that is why he says he will not allow the election to go ahead in February. The only reforms he will be interested in is gerrymandering, to somehow nullify the majority vote by any means he can. If you honestly believe that once he and his few hundred of the self appointed great and good have got their grubby hands on power they will hold free nationwide elections, knowing that the result would be their annihilation at the ballot box, you are clearly capable of believing six impossible things before breakfast!

Gerrymandering alone won't cut it unless he gets rid of the proportional vote. I think the most likely thing Suthep has in mind is a variation of PAD's new politics, with 70% of the house appointed, 30% elected.

Although good point about vote buying. If the PTP were smart, they'd already have taken steps to eliminate it and punish it more harshly. It may benefit them, but in the long run it benefits their opponents much more by discrediting the election process. They have enough solid support in the North and Northeast to win elections without that. (If they manage to defuse the rice scheme blowing up in their face, that is)

In addition to the existing provisions, I think solid jail time without parole for the person handing out the bribe, and a heavy fine for bribe takers should dissuade enough people that it would no longer be a large scale problem.

Yes, the problem is, no one serious seems to think it's actually a problem. I'd agree with the jail time for those found guilty of vote buying, because in the end, it is wrong. But in the end it makes little, if any, difference to the result. I've now seen several academics that have studied it say as much, and the only people saying different are those who're anti-Thaksin and want to discredit the result to further their own agenda - after all, if the election wasn't legitimate anyway, why not have an unelected government?

Of course, I know you're aware of all this. My only point is that I don't really see it necessary to change the system to solve a problem which isn't really a problem in the first place. It used to be, but it's becoming much less of a factor as time goes by and Thais become more accustomed to the democratic process. In fact, surely what Suthep and his backers would actually prefer is to go back to a time when vote buying was rampant and smaller parties who were expert at these 'dark arts' prospered, because back then, the Democrats would usually be able to govern by heading up a coalition of these patronage based parties.

This from the latest Banyan column in The Economist btw: 'Mr Suthep’s motley crew of acolytes and cheerleaders try to argue that somehow all of Mr Thaksin’s victories (in the various party guises) have been “bought” and that voters have been “bribed” by the promise of lavish public spending, to help poor rice farmers for instance. But there is almost no evidence that any of these elections were systematically bought or rigged in anyway. Indeed, the last election, certainly, was very well conducted by comparison with other recent elections in the South-East Asian region. Indeed, when pressed, one of Mr Suthep’s main advisers admitted to me that despite all the alleged vote-buying (which he produced no evidence for) the result was still “legitimate”. And the incontinent public spending programmes? In the West that’s called Keynesian economics.'

[Zolt]

Yes, the problem is, no one serious seems to think it's actually a problem. I'd agree with the jail time for those found guilty of vote buying, because in the end, it is wrong. But in the end it makes little, if any, difference to the result. I've now seen several academics that have studied it say as much, and the only people saying different are those who're anti-Thaksin and want to discredit the result to further their own agenda - after all, if the election wasn't legitimate anyway, why not have an unelected government?

Of course, I know you're aware of all this. My only point is that I don't really see it necessary to change the system to solve a problem which isn't really a problem in the first place. It used to be, but it's becoming much less of a factor as time goes by and Thais become more accustomed to the democratic process. In fact, surely what Suthep and his backers would actually prefer is to go back to a time when vote buying was rampant and smaller parties who were expert at these 'dark arts' prospered, because back then, the Democrats would usually be able to govern by heading up a coalition of these patronage based parties.

This from the latest Banyan column in The Economist btw: 'Mr Suthep’s motley crew of acolytes and cheerleaders try to argue that somehow all of Mr Thaksin’s victories (in the various party guises) have been “bought” and that voters have been “bribed” by the promise of lavish public spending, to help poor rice farmers for instance. But there is almost no evidence that any of these elections were systematically bought or rigged in anyway. Indeed, the last election, certainly, was very well conducted by comparison with other recent elections in the South-East Asian region. Indeed, when pressed, one of Mr Suthep’s main advisers admitted to me that despite all the alleged vote-buying (which he produced no evidence for) the result was still “legitimate”. And the incontinent public spending programmes? In the West that’s called Keynesian economics.'

And in the west the topic of Keynesian economics is just as contested. I'd like to say that we're more grown up about it, and don't contest the result of elections or take the whole country hostage to our ideologies, but recent history has proven we can be just as silly, albeit in somewhat more elaborate ways.

[peecee]

The term "loose cannon" comes to mind. He must know something I don't to carry on like this without getting busted for the Thai equivalent of treason. The Shins must know something to let him get away with it. Do they all believe he has the backing of the military?

What's going on that no one will touch him?

This.

Something is going on, and I think we'll find out very soon.

There is no way he would keep pushing like this, unless he knows he has a chance.

There is no way the police wouldn't arrest him, unless they know that he has serious backing.

For sure; behind every little man their is a great woman! No guesses for who she is, all the Thais I speak to just whisper it.

Some democracy eh?

[LomSak27]

Establish Unelected peoples Councils

or no election

huh what ????/

[Ulic]

Hear me know, believe me later, don't worry about what you have heard about me. I am the best man to

name and lead a council to run the country. Honestly you can trust me. No election needed, save the money.

[DonThaiToMe]

Suthep calls himself democratic???? Why doesn't he want elections? Simple, because the Taksinites will most likely win again.

when did he say he didn't want elections ?

Perhaps you should go look again and when you have it right come back and post here exactly what he did say

It doesn't matter if PTP win the next elections as long as there are rules in place that stop them from the constant abuse of power and denial of the law and courts and procedures are put in place to force fiscal transparency, scrap parlamentry immunity to prosecution and Ban convicted MP's for life not 5 years, also for any charter or constitutional change will require 2/3 majority in the house therefor ensuring such changes are representative of all the people

Simple things that would make significant changes for the good of all

If you actually believe that you´re fantastically naiv! Dear Leader was involved in corruption long before Mr T. even got in to politics. So believing that Dear Leader is trying to do something other than to fill his own pockets and satisfy his hunger for power borders on idiocy.

[retsdon]

Absolute democracy - a brainchild of the lateThomas Hobbes.

[Jim walker]

Suthep the self-chosen spokesman for over 50million Thais he will decide everything for them as he demanded no need for elections he will decide what the outcome will be and who will govern Thailand, I think come the elections most Thais will decide for themselves who will govern Thailand they are not all as stupid as he thinks it will be who they want and if doesn’t turn out how they want after a year or so we can just take to the streets or airport and get a change of government to suite the economic climate, or fashion colour.

[edwinchester]

So how come Suthep spoke absolutely sweet fa about political reform when the Democrats were in power 3 years ago?

The PT agenda was apparent even then but not a word was said about vote buying, corruption and nepotism and the need to rid it from the Thai system.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bkkfaranguy]

Let's play Devil's Advocate for a minute and say he get's his wish and establishes his "People's Council". All hand picked by him of course. He says it would only be for "about 15 months", and then new elections would be called. But, what if, after those 15 month, this "People's Council" decided they like their position and decide to "hand on for a while longer" (re: indefinitely), and elections become a thing of memory.

do you honestly need anyone to answer that nonsense especially given what has happened the last 4 weeks - you think the Thai people or the military would accept such a thing

seriously

Actually yes many believe and I am not sure what news you have been reading lately you must only pay attention to the yellow propaganda! Sure he does not oppose elections as long as they can put into place a law that only allows the well educated to vote thus swaying the elections his way. There have also been other post by his supporters not just asking for a short term peoples concil, but to put one in place for 10years. While I am sure any sinerio would outrage the majority of the Thai people he has the money because he has the backing of the BKK rich elite and he has the backing of the military as they are joined together at the hip!

lol again you are quoting stuff that you seem to have made up - I'll use this one example to discredit your whole post - please provide the quote from Suthep (or anyone for that matter) that states - only the well educated will be allowed to vote

seriously dude if you are just going to plaster this forum with your own made up incorrect spam/quotes you are simply wasting every ones time

Now it's a different matter if that is your opinion about sutheps intention but there is a huge difference between posting an opinion and actually claiming it as a fact - if it is an opinion then you have every right to have one but please state that in you post

LOL seriously you called me dude, you must Jeff Spicoli/ AKA Sean Penn from the movie fast times at ridgemont times, that would totally explain your veiws and post here which I do enjoy.

This has always been a part of there agenda going back to the days when they labeled themselvs as yellow shirts, it has been stated and posted here many times that the Thai educated middle class vote should account for more than the uneducated people from the north or that they should not be allowed to vote if they do not have a college eductation. As we see more and more of the Thai middle class posting here look up Jaidams or Bakseeda replies and post.

News wise there have been many articles in the past years both worldwide sources and locally, most recent articles where "Weakening Voting Rights Will Only Provoke Greater Division" 12/13, "A Letter To The Well-Healed Protesters Of Bangkok" 12/11 by The Nation.

[binjalin]

surely Dear Leaders 'Peoples Council' (read Suthep Council) is unelected so how can the Supreme Leader-in-Waiting say 'council' or no elections?

[spare5]

surely Dear Leaders 'Peoples Council' (read Suthep Council) is unelected so how can the Supreme Leader-in-Waiting say 'council' or no elections?

If that turns out to be the real wish of the "People".What is wrong with that?

Edited December 14, 2013 by spare5

[binjalin]

surely Dear Leaders 'Peoples Council' (read Suthep Council) is unelected so how can the Supreme Leader-in-Waiting say 'council' or no elections?

If that turns out to be the real wish of the "People".What is wrong with that?

elections are there to determine the real wish of the "People" not one man and his small mob who demonstrate 'sour grapes' when they lose the election (as they have the last 9 times)

hijacking the country? mob rule? not contesting democratic elections? 'people's council'? I have only spoken to 2 Thais who support this undemocratic attempted coup - all others are horrified and want THEIR RIGHT to vote

Edited December 14, 2013 by binjalin

[Sing_Sling]

surely Dear Leaders 'Peoples Council' (read Suthep Council) is unelected so how can the Supreme Leader-in-Waiting say 'council' or no elections?

If that turns out to be the real wish of the "People".What is wrong with that?

How does he know the 'real wish of the "People" if he doesn't let them speak through their votes?

What bothers me most about all of this is the foreigners who scream 'fair elections' every time yet are quite happy to accept one man - Suthep - wanting to end democracy.

As another poster already stated - he was in government previously, why didn't he advocate it and put it in place then?