Thai Army strongly slams Thaksin’s lawyer, Robert Amsterdam

[SheungWan]

Those posters are a vocal minority on Thai Visa and certainly don't represent the majority of Thai opinion.

The latter part is self-evidently true but I'm not so sure about the first half, and in any case, The Nation dictates the party line on this forum.

Says a supporter of Thaksin who lies that he is dictating government policy at the same time he is boasting that he does.

[jackr]

The Army and the Navy just can't take it when someone tells the truth about them.

Nobody can in this fair land.

[jayboy]

There is a horrible stench in this room, seem whenever an Amsterdam topic comes up the 50 shades of red fornicate over each other to defend his honour. Like seagulls fighting over that last juicy chip.

How difficult is it to grasp a simple point? I don't see anyone engaged in defending Amsterdam:I certainly have no interest in doing so.

The thread subject matter deals only with his comments on the Thai army and to date these have not been refuted.

Since the observations are undeniably true, the only alternative is to spew random abuse.But I am afraid you and others of your persuasion have lost the argument.

........................................."Since the observations are undeniably true"............................................

?????????????????????????????

Thanks jayboy, when I read your amazing comment I sprayed coffee all over my laptop screen, again !

Proves my point once again.Unable to refute the charges.

[moonao]

Maybe not such good timing for anyone ostensibly working for Thaksin to publicly rile the military.

My thoughts initially too. But it appears over the last few weeks, the army is positioning themselves, as quietly as they can, for a coup, and I believe they are waiting patiently for the right time. The right time for them would be if they can do it while being seen as ""neutral" and possibly as "heros" like in 2006. Things are a lot different now, most people dont want 2006 version 2.0.

Amsterdam is giving us a look under the Thai Armys skirt and making it more difficult for the army to pretend to be neutral.

They wont dare execute a coup without appearing at least neutral, it is too damaging to themselves and the country.

Edited January 12, 2014 by moonao

[Ozymandias]

Since when was it amsterdams place to blast the Thai army.

Oh yes, he is Thaksins mouthpiece so he is talking for the convicted crim.

How dare the army attempt to prevent the chosen one from returning to claim his rightful place as the dictator.

I presume you are from New Zealand. Setting aside the obvious lack of balance in your post here, I wonder: would you be happy if the NZ army considered itself unaccountable to the government in your home country? Would you consider NZ a democracy if the army could pick and choose which government it took orders from, according to its political colour?

If this doesn't help you to acquire more perspective, here are some tips:

1. Take a deep breath (perhaps meditate for a while)

2. Forget the demon Thaksin and the (possibly in your eyes) saintly Suthep for a moment.

3. Remember 2010, when the army felt free to take orders from the then-coalition government (with saintly Suthep as deputy PM) and subsequent evidence showed it as close to certain that their bullets killed many of the 90 protesters.

4. Imagine how the families of the 2010 dead will feel if the current protests turn ugly and the army stages a coup (it didn't in 2010, did it?)

4. Open your eyes and ask: have I acquired more perspective? Have I begun to see that there are indeed two sides to this?

Failing that, have another rant and stay amongst the rank and file red/yellow, whose stance appears to be: 'la la la la la not listening I'm right and you're wrong la la la la'.

You seem to forget that when the RTA obeyed government orders to be involved in a political dispute in 2010, they were subsequently vilified for it by the same people making the request now. They have supplied UNARMED troops for crowd control, but the only orders I can see they are disobeying is again supplying armed soldiers to act against protesters, and who are far less violent than those in 2010.

Perhaps the RTA might reconsider when the M-79s and RPGs start flying. However it seems clear that the majority of violence is being directed AT protesters and not coming from them. But I'm sure Amsterdam's little shot will persuade them to reconsider whether to support inept hypocrite criminals or not.

You have a selective memory. The violence in 2010 was first instigated in April by (admittedly unknown) snipers. There was no significant violence from protesters until they moved to Ratchaprasong and then it was when close to the 'endgame'. Most red shirt protesters then - as most yellow shirt protesters are now - are peaceful people who are being led by those with a political agenda that is deliberately kept from the sheep.

In terms of the army, they will support the establishment, period, because their fate and that of the establiishment is intertwined. The problem now is that a) it is unclear if the establishment (i.e. Bangkok elite) will come out on top - short term, maybe, but long-term this is unlikely and there are large numbers of 'watermelon' soldiers (some at high rank) in the army who won't be happy if it has clearly adopted double standards.

One problem I have with what you say here is 'it seems clear that the majority of violence is being directed AT protesters and not coming from them'. This does NOT seem clear at all if you are adopting a balanced approach. The initial violence was indeed FROM the protesters: unless of course you've forgotten a) the bus burned in Ramkamhaeng the redshirts shot in the same area (1 died, I think) and c) the taxi driver pulled from his cab and beaten unconscious.

As I said, you have a selective memory.

[Ozymandias]

I certainly agree with Mt Amsterdam's comment about the silence of groups like Amnesty International. Who is the local director? Deafening silence from her on a whole range of issues to do with Thailand othe than a weak media release urging govt restraint. Get real, lady....it's not the govt engaging in abuse here

Actually, it's the policy of Amnesty International that national offices do not get involved in the politics of their country. So the job of being involved in Thai human rights issues is that of those offices outside Thailand.

Having said that, the Thai branch of Amnesty International is renowned for being full of right-wing pro-establishment types who won't speak up for human rights if it might offend someone high up.

[prvtdetdave]

Love how everyone throws around the "D" word (Democracy). And none of them know the true meaning of it.

de·moc·ra·cynoun \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

: a country ruled by democracy

: an organization or situation in which everyone is treated equally and has equal rights

plural de·moc·ra·cies

Full Definition of DEMOCRACY

1

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

[Suradit69]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Actually it was the colonel who said that, not the army. Armies don't decide things, but people do.

Still one could say the same thing about Thai Visa posters. It seems the number of people deemed undesirable everyday here at the hub of the white man's burden is almost boundless.

[climbertrev1]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Absolutely. The irony will be lost on the Army though. The Colonel's statement totally vindicates what Robert Amsterdam has published. It would be laughable if the situation in Thailand wasn't so critically serious.

Fortunately I doubt all the Army senior officer will agree with the Colonel.

[Trouble]

Since when was it amsterdams place to blast the Thai army.

Oh yes, he is Thaksins mouthpiece so he is talking for the convicted crim.

How dare the army attempt to prevent the chosen one from returning to claim his rightful place as the dictator.

Seems to me it was the Army that ousted Thaksin in a coup. Like him or not, Thaksin was elected. Seems to me Amsterdam is pretty much correct in his statements. Criticizing the Army in a "democracy" evidently makes one undesirable in Thailand.

[Baerboxer]

he is right the army has already refusing to follow lawful directions from the elected government

Unfortunately, when you act illegally, lie, cheat and refuse to obey the law yourself, its difficult to issue directions to others and expect them to be followed without question.

Being elected doesn't actually mean you can do what you want. Nor is it make your corruption legal.

[Baerboxer]

Since when was it amsterdams place to blast the Thai army.

Oh yes, he is Thaksins mouthpiece so he is talking for the convicted crim.

How dare the army attempt to prevent the chosen one from returning to claim his rightful place as the dictator.

Seems to me it was the Army that ousted Thaksin in a coup. Like him or not, Thaksin was elected. Seems to me Amsterdam is pretty much correct in his statements. Criticizing the Army in a "democracy" evidently makes one undesirable in Thailand.

Seems you should check the facts. Thaksin was not the legally elected PM when the Army were forced to remove him. More a self appointed "caretaker".

Was it not PTP making threats via the cyber police that critics using social media, or even liking a critical comment on social media would be severely punished. Thaksin and his various regime incarnations have demonstrated the intolerance towards any form of questioning or criticism on many occasions. Very easy to research.

Thaskin and PTP supporters of democracy - I don't think so,

[simple1]

I certainly agree with Mt Amsterdam's comment about the silence of groups like Amnesty International. Who is the local director? Deafening silence from her on a whole range of issues to do with Thailand othe than a weak media release urging govt restraint. Get real, lady....it's not the govt engaging in abuse here

Actually, it's the policy of Amnesty International that national offices do not get involved in the politics of their country. So the job of being involved in Thai human rights issues is that of those offices outside Thailand.

Having said that, the Thai branch of Amnesty International is renowned for being full of right-wing pro-establishment types who won't speak up for human rights if it might offend someone high up.

Before making unsubstantiated comments it would be a good idea to review Amnesty Internationals' Thai website for their commentary / criticism of Thai authorities’ action or lack of on human rights issues

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/thailand

[Baerboxer]

There is a horrible stench in this room, seem whenever an Amsterdam topic comes up the 50 shades of red fornicate over each other to defend his honour. Like seagulls fighting over that last juicy chip.

How difficult is it to grasp a simple point? I don't see anyone engaged in defending Amsterdam:I certainly have no interest in doing so.

The thread subject matter deals only with his comments on the Thai army and to date these have not been refuted.

Since the observations are undeniably true, the only alternative is to spew random abuse.But I am afraid you and others of your persuasion have lost the argument.

........................................."Since the observations are undeniably true"............................................

?????????????????????????????

Thanks jayboy, when I read your amazing comment I sprayed coffee all over my laptop screen, again !

Proves my point once again.Unable to refute the charges.

Please proof your assertion they are all undeniably true.

[Baerboxer]

Amsterdam is an undesirable person in any country.

Really? Have you informed the UK government where he practices as a solicitor?

Did you advise Canada? He was educated there and his firm maintains an office in Toronto?

Did you call up the US State Department and tell them that Mr. Amsterdam, who was born in the USA, must close his office in the USA?

Oddly enough, Mr. Amsterdam is regularly consulted by the aforementioned countries' government officials and political representatives. He continues to represent people oppressed in some countries and to receive platitudes from various human rights organizations. He must be doing something that makes him worth their support and/or interest.

Pure invention.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Like most of his posts - devoid of supportive facts.

Come on GK - please provide evidence and links to support your statement that the UK government regularly consults with Mr. Amsterdam.

[Baerboxer]

Thank You Webfact for this story.

I went onto read it from the source but your post was completely accurate as always.

"In response to call by democratically-elected Thai government for help, he said, the Thai Army routinely go missing.

On the Army’s neutral role to the current political crisis, Amsterdam said “Of course, “neutral” in the Thai context, means that you tacitly and explicitly accept anti-democratic forces as a given, natural part of the political discourse. Neutrality in this instance is a non-existent opportunistic chimera created purely to divert a proper analysis of the real conditions within which the Thai Army operate.”

He went on saying “what is clear is that until the Thai Army is brought under lawful, accountable, democratic and civilian control it will act as a force hindering Thailand’s struggling – yet burgeoning – democracy;

I have this to add myself

The only question is when will the international community and the west in particularly, hit Thailand ruling class with trade sanctions that will unfortunately hurt all of Thailand. The President of the USA is being pressed by the PM of the UK to support these trade sanctions. I am afraid that life here for people from the west or for that matter, any other nation, will not be livable in Bangkok should sanctions occur. Thailand would go into a strong anti fa rang mode. Yet, Live in the North and Northeast would still be alright for Fa rang.

We know what happened in Myanmar when the military refused to allow democracy.

PS---the media to the north is completely different than in Bangkok. The nation has split.

Clown Cameron comes from a very wealthy elite family background, as does his wife. He should be talking to his EU partners before running to his American boss.

Hopefully Clegg would stop this sought of nonsense before it begins. Once again Cameron is showing his woeful lack of understanding about the situation in another country, no doubt advised by his useless foreign secretary. He's likely to be responsible for the splitting of the Union, what's left of Britain exiting the EU and still thinks he's in charge of a world power.

Thailand and other developing countries need support - not do as we say or we'll sanction you. Sanction have really worked "so well" over the last 50 years - not!

[michaeljordan]

Amsterdam is an undesirable person in any country.

Really? Have you informed the UK government where he practices as a solicitor?

Did you advise Canada? He was educated there and his firm maintains an office in Toronto?

Did you call up the US State Department and tell them that Mr. Amsterdam, who was born in the USA, must close his office in the USA?

Oddly enough, Mr. Amsterdam is regularly consulted by the aforementioned countries' government officials and political representatives. He continues to represent people oppressed in some countries and to receive platitudes from various human rights organizations. He must be doing something that makes him worth their support and/or interest.

Pure invention.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Like most of his posts - devoid of supportive facts.

Come on GK - please provide evidence and links to support your statement that the UK government regularly consults with Mr. Amsterdam.

When this place goes down in flames of sorts, most of you who are from other nations will simply leave.

The Thais who get paid to post propaganda and those who do it on their own in support of Yellow will be stuck here in the wreck. Now I know some will say--they have it coming. They after all caused it. But sympathy for a train-wreck even for the drunk train manager is in order after the wreck occurs.

Get your passports ready because sooner or later this wreck will drive you out of Thailand Farang.

[Netizen]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Ask the bastion of democracy the USA's Pentagon how that works. They frequently blacklist people without revealing the reasons.

[SjaakNL2013]

It seems that if MP. Thaksin, MP. Yingluck or the Red are the subject of a discussion here the memories from some get very selective. I agree that it make it all more easy but somethings you can' t change. MP. Thaksin was an elected premier from Thailand and not a "kind of caretaker". This can maybe said from MP. Samak and MP. Somchai. And for sure MP. Adjevit installed by the Army. Thaksin and Yingluck where elected by a majority of votes.

In a democratic system like we have here in Thailand you can expect that all outcomes are rigged and adapted. That is what they learn from day one so don't expect other behavior.

[Publicus]

Love how everyone throws around the "D" word (Democracy). And none of them know the true meaning of it.

de·moc·ra·cy noun \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

: a country ruled by democracy

: an organization or situation in which everyone is treated equally and has equal rights

plural de·moc·ra·cies

Full Definition of DEMOCRACY

1

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

This is a good post I'd been meaning to get to.

It's over the top for so many posters to say the rest here have "no idea" of democracy, or that other posters don't know "true" democracy or that that people they disagree with don't know "real" democracy etc etc etc.

Democracy is democracy so all of this rhetoric about it having dictating qualifiers or realities is hyperbole and nothing else.

I don't try to tell people who disagree with me they don't know "true" democracy or "real" democracy or that they don't have "any idea" of "true democracy" blah blah blah. Such overstatement is elitist in itself, arrogant, and therefore self-defeating.

Democracy is democracy, period.

One can say democracy is evolving because it's the nature of democracy to be much more a process than it is to be a thing we can pin to a board and point to.

[icare999]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

Obviously the Army do give a toss otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to reply.

The fact is that much of what is written is correct and is borne out by the Armys history within Thailand,

Of course they have a right to refute the allegations but they offer no alternative narrative to Amsterdams claims.

They would be much better off not acknowledging these accusations because to do so just draws more attention to them.

You, like others, are so blinded by your hate of Thaksin that you are unable to see the situation in broader terms or accepting that the flaws within Thai society stretch far beyond this one man.

To imagine that somehow the eradication of Thaksin and his family will return Thailand to some sort of Utopian society is risible.

This article by Amsterdam has substance and affiliation with Thaksin doesn't change that.

look I've been here over 30 years and can see as well as any the flaws as you put it but its a matter of choosing least bad. Of course Thailand is not ready for full western type democracy that much is obvious and problem is someone like Taksin has simply gone to far and will if he can take total and absolute power and control as he has proved both before and recently. Compare that with army who have always returned to elections once danger of a one person dictatorship is at least for a while gone. Of course hate taksin same as any sane or rational person would hate any would be dictator. You may be blind to dangers and a lot of thais due to no fault of their own are simply easily mislead and brainwashed (but that a complete other story although 100% true) but many are not. THailand has had many corrupt leaders before and governments who have dipped their beaks as they say but none in my time here who wanted more than a huge amount of money. Taksin has simply gone to far and wants it all. He is not content like many before him with simply stealing billions and taking his loot and going no he wants total absolute power and control which would take away most freedoms taken for granted today.

If you actually lived here and understood to any degree how things work here you would not be so naive I'm sure. If you do live here then I can only assume you have been totally brainwashed and blind to what Taksin is all about.

As stated their is plenty wrong here but also plenty right and one of best things is that army does like it or not act as a brake on would be dictators like taksin. Just imagine if Taksin had the army like he has most other institutions in his pocket then nothing would stop him turning Thailand into a one party Taksin state.

Of course if Taksin gets his way then in a few years you will begin to understand same as those who supported Hitler and rest how silly your support for him and elections at all costs was but then you wont need to live with it same as those supporters of Communism in Russia back in 07's never had to live under that regime or ever even visited (which I did many times). IF as I pray Taksin is defeated Thailand will have been spared a certain dictatorship and although the alternative might not be perfect or by western standards even good it will be much much better than living under any Taksin regime.

Time will tell and thankfully I don't think Taksin can now win so keeping him at bay even for a few more years diminishes each year his ability and chances to turn Thailand into Taksin Land

I wish Suphep all success and he's been only one with guts to make a stand against this evil government. ?? are decent people meant to just sit bye while Taksin is given a amnesty and government change constitution to take away very few checks and balances left. Personally if it was just stealing billions bye their obvious to majority scams and scemes id be happy they just continue knowing it will end in financial ruin for thailand from which Thailand can easily recover.

What Thailand could not recover from easily and not for decades is a one party dictatorship and defeating that is most important goal. If people are stupid enough to vote a corrupt load of incompetents whose only goal is to take as much as they can well let them but theirs far far more at stake and those who fail to recognise this fact will like supporters of previous like minded dictators such as Mugabwie, Gaddafi, Hitler pol pot and rest.

While it is unlikely Taksin would be as bad as Hitler or pol pot its possible and even if he was just like Saddam or Gaddafi that in my books would be bad enough and far far worse than any army administration or other contenders who have not yet proved themselves to be would be dictatorships and given history never have been.

So logically do you choose a known would be dictator as opposed to those who time and time again have shown no interest in total and absolute power and control. Thailand will probably not get for a long long time any proper democracy and particularly while vast majority are so ill informed and uneducated.

Here is a little test ask 100 thais if they know what senate is and 99 of them I guarantee will have no clue and in addition 99 of them will say its government money and so nothing to do with them. While you have this level of ignorance then sorry to say it is hopeless to expect any form of reasonable election here given votes are easily bought and people do as they are told by local head of village.

Now please take your ridiculous western forang ideas back to where they are appropriate which certainly is not here in Thailand or most asian and african countries.

[ianf]

Amsterdam is spot on with his assessment. If you don't like the truth and it irritates you, the for your own sake, leave this topic.

A typically blinkered viewpoint. Thereis enough evidence to suggest otherwise.

Interesting point:

Why would the army get involved in the current situation when they were unfairly blamed by the Government (ie Thaksin supporters) for the 90 deaths in 2010.

They know, as well as many reasonable people do, that they'll get blamed again for the coming actions of Thaksin's men in black.

[Baerboxer]

It seems that if MP. Thaksin, MP. Yingluck or the Red are the subject of a discussion here the memories from some get very selective. I agree that it make it all more easy but somethings you can' t change. MP. Thaksin was an elected premier from Thailand and not a "kind of caretaker". This can maybe said from MP. Samak and MP. Somchai. And for sure MP. Adjevit installed by the Army. Thaksin and Yingluck where elected by a majority of votes.

In a democratic system like we have here in Thailand you can expect that all outcomes are rigged and adapted. That is what they learn from day one so don't expect other behavior.

Have a look at the circumstances around Thaksin dissolving parliament, leaving office and then returning to appoint himself caretaker PM. On whose authority ? He was never elected or formally approved into that role.

Abhisit was installed by parliament, not the army.

Yingluck was not elected with a majority of votes. Maybe your memory is somewhat selective? Or perhaps you don't know the facts? Or of course chose to ignore them?

You demonstrate very nicely the selective memory you accuse others of!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Sheryl
reference to monarchy deleted

[ianf]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

Obviously the Army do give a toss otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to reply.

The fact is that much of what is written is correct and is borne out by the Armys history within Thailand,

Of course they have a right to refute the allegations but they offer no alternative narrative to Amsterdams claims.

They would be much better off not acknowledging these accusations because to do so just draws more attention to them.

You, like others, are so blinded by your hate of Thaksin that you are unable to see the situation in broader terms or accepting that the flaws within Thai society stretch far beyond this one man.

To imagine that somehow the eradication of Thaksin and his family will return Thailand to some sort of Utopian society is risible.

This article by Amsterdam has substance and affiliation with Thaksin doesn't change that.

look I've been here over 30 years and can see as well as any the flaws as you put it but its a matter of choosing least bad. Of course Thailand is not ready for full western type democracy that much is obvious and problem is someone like Taksin has simply gone to far and will if he can take total and absolute power and control as he has proved both before and recently. Compare that with army who have always returned to elections once danger of a one person dictatorship is at least for a while gone. Of course hate taksin same as any sane or rational person would hate any would be dictator. You may be blind to dangers and a lot of thais due to no fault of their own are simply easily mislead and brainwashed (but that a complete other story although 100% true) but many are not. THailand has had many corrupt leaders before and governments who have dipped their beaks as they say but none in my time here who wanted more than a huge amount of money. Taksin has simply gone to far and wants it all. He is not content like many before him with simply stealing billions and taking his loot and going no he wants total absolute power and control which would take away most freedoms taken for granted today.

If you actually lived here and understood to any degree how things work here you would not be so naive I'm sure. If you do live here then I can only assume you have been totally brainwashed and blind to what Taksin is all about.

As stated their is plenty wrong here but also plenty right and one of best things is that army does like it or not act as a brake on would be dictators like taksin. Just imagine if Taksin had the army like he has most other institutions in his pocket then nothing would stop him turning Thailand into a one party Taksin state.

Of course if Taksin gets his way then in a few years you will begin to understand same as those who supported Hitler and rest how silly your support for him and elections at all costs was but then you wont need to live with it same as those supporters of Communism in Russia back in 07's never had to live under that regime or ever even visited (which I did many times). IF as I pray Taksin is defeated Thailand will have been spared a certain dictatorship and although the alternative might not be perfect or by western standards even good it will be much much better than living under any Taksin regime.

Time will tell and thankfully I don't think Taksin can now win so keeping him at bay even for a few more years diminishes each year his ability and chances to turn Thailand into Taksin Land

I wish Suphep all success and he's been only one with guts to make a stand against this evil government. ?? are decent people meant to just sit bye while Taksin is given a amnesty and government change constitution to take away very few checks and balances left. Personally if it was just stealing billions bye their obvious to majority scams and scemes id be happy they just continue knowing it will end in financial ruin for thailand from which Thailand can easily recover.

What Thailand could not recover from easily and not for decades is a one party dictatorship and defeating that is most important goal. If people are stupid enough to vote a corrupt load of incompetents whose only goal is to take as much as they can well let them but theirs far far more at stake and those who fail to recognise this fact will like supporters of previous like minded dictators such as Mugabwie, Gaddafi, Hitler pol pot and rest.

While it is unlikely Taksin would be as bad as Hitler or pol pot its possible and even if he was just like Saddam or Gaddafi that in my books would be bad enough and far far worse than any army administration or other contenders who have not yet proved themselves to be would be dictatorships and given history never have been.

So logically do you choose a known would be dictator as opposed to those who time and time again have shown no interest in total and absolute power and control. Thailand will probably not get for a long long time any proper democracy and particularly while vast majority are so ill informed and uneducated.

Here is a little test ask 100 thais if they know what senate is and 99 of them I guarantee will have no clue and in addition 99 of them will say its government money and so nothing to do with them. While you have this level of ignorance then sorry to say it is hopeless to expect any form of reasonable election here given votes are easily bought and people do as they are told by local head of village.

Now please take your ridiculous western forang ideas back to where they are appropriate which certainly is not here in Thailand or most asian and african countries.

Here speaks the voice of wisdom. A great post and thank you for being so erudite.

[wave]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

Obviously the Army do give a toss otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to reply.

The fact is that much of what is written is correct and is borne out by the Armys history within Thailand,

Of course they have a right to refute the allegations but they offer no alternative narrative to Amsterdams claims.

They would be much better off not acknowledging these accusations because to do so just draws more attention to them.

You, like others, are so blinded by your hate of Thaksin that you are unable to see the situation in broader terms or accepting that the flaws within Thai society stretch far beyond this one man.

To imagine that somehow the eradication of Thaksin and his family will return Thailand to some sort of Utopian society is risible.

This article by Amsterdam has substance and affiliation with Thaksin doesn't change that.

look I've been here over 30 years and can see as well as any the flaws as you put it but its a matter of choosing least bad. Of course Thailand is not ready for full western type democracy that much is obvious and problem is someone like Taksin has simply gone to far and will if he can take total and absolute power and control as he has proved both before and recently. Compare that with army who have always returned to elections once danger of a one person dictatorship is at least for a while gone. Of course hate taksin same as any sane or rational person would hate any would be dictator. You may be blind to dangers and a lot of thais due to no fault of their own are simply easily mislead and brainwashed (but that a complete other story although 100% true) but many are not. THailand has had many corrupt leaders before and governments who have dipped their beaks as they say but none in my time here who wanted more than a huge amount of money. Taksin has simply gone to far and wants it all. He is not content like many before him with simply stealing billions and taking his loot and going no he wants total absolute power and control which would take away most freedoms taken for granted today.

If you actually lived here and understood to any degree how things work here you would not be so naive I'm sure. If you do live here then I can only assume you have been totally brainwashed and blind to what Taksin is all about.

As stated their is plenty wrong here but also plenty right and one of best things is that army does like it or not act as a brake on would be dictators like taksin. Just imagine if Taksin had the army like he has most other institutions in his pocket then nothing would stop him turning Thailand into a one party Taksin state.

Of course if Taksin gets his way then in a few years you will begin to understand same as those who supported Hitler and rest how silly your support for him and elections at all costs was but then you wont need to live with it same as those supporters of Communism in Russia back in 07's never had to live under that regime or ever even visited (which I did many times). IF as I pray Taksin is defeated Thailand will have been spared a certain dictatorship and although the alternative might not be perfect or by western standards even good it will be much much better than living under any Taksin regime.

Time will tell and thankfully I don't think Taksin can now win so keeping him at bay even for a few more years diminishes each year his ability and chances to turn Thailand into Taksin Land

I wish Suphep all success and he's been only one with guts to make a stand against this evil government. ?? are decent people meant to just sit bye while Taksin is given a amnesty and government change constitution to take away very few checks and balances left. Personally if it was just stealing billions bye their obvious to majority scams and scemes id be happy they just continue knowing it will end in financial ruin for thailand from which Thailand can easily recover.

What Thailand could not recover from easily and not for decades is a one party dictatorship and defeating that is most important goal. If people are stupid enough to vote a corrupt load of incompetents whose only goal is to take as much as they can well let them but theirs far far more at stake and those who fail to recognise this fact will like supporters of previous like minded dictators such as Mugabwie, Gaddafi, Hitler pol pot and rest.

While it is unlikely Taksin would be as bad as Hitler or pol pot its possible and even if he was just like Saddam or Gaddafi that in my books would be bad enough and far far worse than any army administration or other contenders who have not yet proved themselves to be would be dictatorships and given history never have been.

So logically do you choose a known would be dictator as opposed to those who time and time again have shown no interest in total and absolute power and control. Thailand will probably not get for a long long time any proper democracy and particularly while vast majority are so ill informed and uneducated.

Here is a little test ask 100 thais if they know what senate is and 99 of them I guarantee will have no clue and in addition 99 of them will say its government money and so nothing to do with them. While you have this level of ignorance then sorry to say it is hopeless to expect any form of reasonable election here given votes are easily bought and people do as they are told by local head of village.

Now please take your ridiculous western forang ideas back to where they are appropriate which certainly is not here in Thailand or most asian and african countries.

This frothing diatribe against Mr Thaksin seems to make you unable to respond to points raised in my post .

Additionally this has taken you completely off topic.

Just to clarify

The OP is about Mr Amsterdams blog questioning the position of the Army and Col. Winthai's response .

Maybe you would care to get back on topic but I fear this may not be an option.

[animatic]

Love how everyone throws around the "D" word (Democracy). And none of them know the true meaning of it.

de·moc·ra·cy noun \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

: a country ruled by democracy

: an organization or situation in which everyone is treated equally and has equal rights

plural de·moc·ra·cies

Full Definition of DEMOCRACY

1

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

But not considered a true democracy when a large rapacious political machine manipulates the outcome,

via trickery, fakery or wholesale purchase of the voting blocks with in the elected officials.

That is called totalitarian and FASCIST, even if there is a pretence of elections.

[animatic]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

Obviously the Army do give a toss otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to reply.

The fact is that much of what is written is correct and is borne out by the Armys history within Thailand,

Of course they have a right to refute the allegations but they offer no alternative narrative to Amsterdams claims.

They would be much better off not acknowledging these accusations because to do so just draws more attention to them.

You, like others, are so blinded by your hate of Thaksin that you are unable to see the situation in broader terms or accepting that the flaws within Thai society stretch far beyond this one man.

To imagine that somehow the eradication of Thaksin and his family will return Thailand to some sort of Utopian society is risible.

This article by Amsterdam has substance and affiliation with Thaksin doesn't change that.

look I've been here over 30 years and can see as well as any the flaws as you put it but its a matter of choosing least bad. Of course Thailand is not ready for full western type democracy that much is obvious and problem is someone like Taksin has simply gone to far and will if he can take total and absolute power and control as he has proved both before and recently. Compare that with army who have always returned to elections once danger of a one person dictatorship is at least for a while gone. Of course hate taksin same as any sane or rational person would hate any would be dictator. You may be blind to dangers and a lot of thais due to no fault of their own are simply easily mislead and brainwashed (but that a complete other story although 100% true) but many are not. THailand has had many corrupt leaders before and governments who have dipped their beaks as they say but none in my time here who wanted more than a huge amount of money. Taksin has simply gone to far and wants it all. He is not content like many before him with simply stealing billions and taking his loot and going no he wants total absolute power and control which would take away most freedoms taken for granted today.

If you actually lived here and understood to any degree how things work here you would not be so naive I'm sure. If you do live here then I can only assume you have been totally brainwashed and blind to what Taksin is all about.

As stated their is plenty wrong here but also plenty right and one of best things is that army does like it or not act as a brake on would be dictators like taksin. Just imagine if Taksin had the army like he has most other institutions in his pocket then nothing would stop him turning Thailand into a one party Taksin state.

Of course if Taksin gets his way then in a few years you will begin to understand same as those who supported Hitler and rest how silly your support for him and elections at all costs was but then you wont need to live with it same as those supporters of Communism in Russia back in 07's never had to live under that regime or ever even visited (which I did many times). IF as I pray Taksin is defeated Thailand will have been spared a certain dictatorship and although the alternative might not be perfect or by western standards even good it will be much much better than living under any Taksin regime.

Time will tell and thankfully I don't think Taksin can now win so keeping him at bay even for a few more years diminishes each year his ability and chances to turn Thailand into Taksin Land

I wish Suphep all success and he's been only one with guts to make a stand against this evil government. ?? are decent people meant to just sit bye while Taksin is given a amnesty and government change constitution to take away very few checks and balances left. Personally if it was just stealing billions bye their obvious to majority scams and scemes id be happy they just continue knowing it will end in financial ruin for thailand from which Thailand can easily recover.

What Thailand could not recover from easily and not for decades is a one party dictatorship and defeating that is most important goal. If people are stupid enough to vote a corrupt load of incompetents whose only goal is to take as much as they can well let them but theirs far far more at stake and those who fail to recognise this fact will like supporters of previous like minded dictators such as Mugabwie, Gaddafi, Hitler pol pot and rest.

While it is unlikely Taksin would be as bad as Hitler or pol pot its possible and even if he was just like Saddam or Gaddafi that in my books would be bad enough and far far worse than any army administration or other contenders who have not yet proved themselves to be would be dictatorships and given history never have been.

So logically do you choose a known would be dictator as opposed to those who time and time again have shown no interest in total and absolute power and control. Thailand will probably not get for a long long time any proper democracy and particularly while vast majority are so ill informed and uneducated.

Here is a little test ask 100 thais if they know what senate is and 99 of them I guarantee will have no clue and in addition 99 of them will say its government money and so nothing to do with them. While you have this level of ignorance then sorry to say it is hopeless to expect any form of reasonable election here given votes are easily bought and people do as they are told by local head of village.

Now please take your ridiculous western forang ideas back to where they are appropriate which certainly is not here in Thailand or most asian and african countries.

Regardless of other points being argued on and on, this long piece gets to the meat of the matter.

We simply can not consider, nor gauge, how Thailand functions in it's herky jerky path

from Feudalism to Functional Democracy with the same 21st century eyes we reserve

for current affairs of the developed nations. But more from a 18-19th century view point.

Because the Thailand society is still, in it's basic social controls, a functionally feudal state,

with modern communications and business models grafted on top.

Nor can we attempt to tar the country with brushes we might use for a more modern

and functional democracy for backsliding. In 10-15 years when the current crop of

internet raised and trained uni grad start having their real say, when the dinosaurs of the past

are gone or brain dead, then we will see some real steps towards functional democracy.

The Damned Hampster's pieces are aimed from international consumption,

but by those not full conversant on Thailand system and it's foibles.

By stating a 'pretence for hire of true democratic principles', but in the benefit of an old world liege lord,

and megalomaniac, his articles are naught but propaganda for Foreign Ministries and heads of state

and their spinmeisters to fulminate about for their own domestic conservatives.

But the pay is good, so he keeps spinning on his wheel till the lord stops writing the large checks.

Edited January 12, 2014 by animatic

[evadgib]

Army's elsewhere obey their Govt whether they like it or not. To ensure this happens the first thing any Govt should do is control access to the logistical chain that they need in order to function; Weapons, Ammo, Food, Vehicles, Fuel & Funds.

Until they do the tail will continue to wag the dog.

Edited January 12, 2014 by evadgib

[Sayonarax]

He said the article was defamatory and filled with groundless and baseless false information ever written by such a person with “narrow-mind” and ” hidden agenda” and evil intention to discredit the army.

Typical response.. im gonna sue you for defaming the army as a whole...

[SjaakNL2013]

Love how everyone throws around the "D" word (Democracy). And none of them know the true meaning of it.

de·moc·ra·cy noun \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

: a country ruled by democracy

: an organization or situation in which everyone is treated equally and has equal rights

plural de·moc·ra·cies

Full Definition of DEMOCRACY

1

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

This is a good post I'd been meaning to get to.

It's over the top for so many posters to say the rest here have "no idea" of democracy, or that other posters don't know "true" democracy or that that people they disagree with don't know "real" democracy etc etc etc.

Democracy is democracy so all of this rhetoric about it having dictating qualifiers or realities is hyperbole and nothing else.

I don't try to tell people who disagree with me they don't know "true" democracy or "real" democracy or that they don't have "any idea" of "true democracy" blah blah blah. Such overstatement is elitist in itself, arrogant, and therefore self-defeating.

Democracy is democracy, period.

One can say democracy is evolving because it's the nature of democracy to be much more a process than it is to be a thing we can pin to a board and point to.

....Democracy is democracy, period............

Not so long ago a country called the DDR, Deutsche Demokratische Republik, adapted the word democracy and give it a hole new definition.

Remember that all what you read and find in books is not always the truth because many of those so called by the people chosen governments control what you read, how you think and what is good or wrong.