Thai Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers

[webfact]

Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers
Petchanet Pratruangkrai
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- THE CARETAKER government is likely to face a new threat of more protests by farmers, who have suffered from the delay of payments for their pledged rice.

The sale of 1 million tonnes of rice to China has been delayed while a Bt130-billion loan waits for the green light from the Election Commission (EC).

Some 100 farmers from Phichit gathered on Monday to block the inbound lanes of Route 11 from Wang Thong, Phitsanulok, to Tak Pha, Lamphun, threatening to escalate the protest to oust the government if their claims are not settled by today.

Farmers from Ratchaburi, Nakhon Ratchasima and Khon Kaen also asked the government again for their payment for pledged rice, giving Wednesday as the deadline. They also threatened to block roads.

The Commerce Ministry has delayed its plan to sell 1 million tonnes of rice to China. It is afraid of breaching the laws limiting the functions of a caretaker government after receiving vague guidance from the Election Commission.

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment. The ministry needs to clarify these points before it can finalise the deal with China.

The deal agreed by the Foreign Trade Department was to ship a total of 1 million tonnes to China over the course of this year. But in its reply to the ministry, the EC said it should not make long-term commitments that would affect the incoming government.

Legal experts are studying the powers of a caretaker government to try to sort out whether the ministry can legally sign a rice contract for a period that would still be in effect when the new government is established.

Wichian Phuanglamchiak, president of the Thai Agriculturists Association, said many farmers had been suffering from non-payment by the government for months.

"Farmers are desperately hoping that the government can pay the pledged cost to them soon, as they have many liabilities piling up such as the cost of harvesting their rice, driving their trucks and feeding their families," he said.

Niwatthumrong said: "If the |China rice sale is postponed, the new government would be expected to |sign on to it in the near future."

Thought farmers participating in the pledging programme have been complaining about late payments, the minister said postponing the China deal should not affect the government's ability to pay up. The Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives should be able to get all payments up to date by the end of this month, he said.

Finance Minister Kittiratt Na-Ranong said he was waiting for |an appointment with the EC to explain the need to borrow Bt130 billion to pay for the 2013-14 harvest season.

"The loan is not an obligation |for the next government as the Cabinet in the third quarter of last year assigned the ministry to secure it," he said.

Expenses might be lower than |the budget of Bt130 billion, depending on the proceeds from selling rice |from the state's stockpiles. As a |source of money, the financial market now has high liquidity. The government could tap BAAC's liquidity by offering it high rates of return, Kittiratt said.

A report showed the government had already spent Bt701.8 billion for 50 million tonnes of pledged rice since 2010. The Commerce Ministry was able to sell rice worth Bt180 billion, but the government needs more to pay the pledging costs.

The ministry also reported that about 10 million tonnes of rice were |now in government storage. Also, 5 |million tonnes have shipment contracts, while 10 million tonnes of paddy rice have entered the government's granaries under the current pledging round (2013-14).

-- The Nation 2014-01-15

[noikrit]

Well SOMEONE has done OK out of this SCAM .... And it AINT the Farmer ......

[millwall_fan]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

[ginjag]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

Issan is booming --you said, WHERE ?? Much of the money has filtered down to the farmer which farmer, certainly not the little farm man that voted for PTP.

Maybe you are getting mixed up with the giant farmer that has-the big business ones that have benefitted along with the other pilferers.

Edited January 15, 2014 by ginjag

[khwaibah]

Just another crock of shyt..

[worgeordie]

Was there ever a purchase order from China ?,or was it more smoke and mirrors,

you can never believe anything Governments say, but this Government beats the lot.

regards Worgeordie

[dcutman]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

[LuckyLew]

Did PTP not say farmers would be paid in 15th of Jan?

Thaksin ... you had better get you check book ready ... 555

[whybother]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

"much of it has filtered down to the farmers."

Except for all these farmers that haven't been paid in months.

[robblok]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

"much of it has filtered down to the farmers."

Except for all these farmers that haven't been paid in months.

Not to mention no details about the almost final sale to chine are available. A price.. dates.. nothing like that. Smoke and mirrors again. If I were the EC I would not be signing any agreements without those details. Actually I think nobody with half a brain would.

Seems they want to scapegoat the EC, its strange that the red supporters still defend this and don't see through the lies.

[boomerangutang]

'What tangled webs we mortals weave'

Issan is booming --you said, WHERE ?? Much of the money has filtered down to the farmer which farmer, certainly not the little farm man that voted for PTP. Maybe you are getting mixed up with the giant farmer that has-the big business ones that h ave benefitted along with the other pilferers.

Other pilferers = millers. Those Chinese-Thai rich families who always seem to be in positions to take advantage of the little guys (on the lowest rungs of the social ladder) and the fat cats (on the upper rungs).

Thaksin might borrow a line from Ronald Readan, and call the rice pledging scam a 'trickle down policy.' ....except the liquid trickling down is yellow and doesn't smell good.

[tim armstrong]

15 January was payment day. The government simply doesn't have the money. All the other stuff about legalities of the sale to China is indeed smoke and mirrors. Thai rice has been sold to China for many years, so the process is well known. I would suspect that the Chinese see the opportunity now to get an even better deal, knowing that there are few players out there that will/ can buy so much thai rice.

[tomacht8]

So my estimate was not so bad:

686.000.000.000 Starting this §$% Rice Scheme Scam

+180.000.000.000 Returning money from rice sales

+ 60.000.000.000 New planed bond injection

= 926.000.000.000 disbursed

- 130.000.000.000 Stockpile value at best (Assumption of 25% are rotten)

- 14.745.000 Bank fees 2012

- 4.095.000 Bank fees 2013

= 795.981.160.000 Money lost in greedy stupidity

And here more what shows the disaster.

50 Mio ton paddy * 0,7 = 35 Mio ton milled rice.

so there are 10 Mio ton milled rice in Stockpile (old crop).

+ as I understand the article again 10 Mio ton milled rice from the new crop

(of which no one knows how much of it was already paid = open state debs)

so 35 Mio ton – 20 Mio ton Stockpile = 15 Mio ton sold.

average selling price = 180.000.000.000 / 15.000.000 = sold milled rice for 12.000 Baht ton.!!!

Then 10 Mio ton milled rice = 14 Mio ton paddy.

14 Mio ton * 14.020 Baht buying price from the farmers new crop = 196.280.000.000 Baht

36 Mio ton * 14020 Baht buying price old crop = 504.720.000.000 Baht

Together 701.000.000.000 Baht

Estimate of the current debt for unpaid rice:

701.000.000.000 - 686.000.000.000 = 15.000.000.000

196.280.000.000 Baht – 15.000.000.000 = 181.280.000.000 Baht open state debs

That is then:

701.000.000.000 Baht paid from state

+ 180.000.000.000 Baht return from sale

+ 181.280.000.000 Baht open state debs

=1.062.280.000.000 cost (over 1 Trillion already)

- stockpile 20 Mio ton (Estimate 20% are rotten)

multiplied by the average possible selling price

=192.000.000.000 Baht (stock now 16 Mio ton milled rice not rotten)

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

I wish the head of the state would lock all responsible selfish, greedy, dishonest, corrupt people in the prison.
Stolen a better future for the children in this country

Edited January 15, 2014 by tomacht8

[MaxLee]

Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA,.... not so fast Mr. Kittirath, and co... , you nasty nasty white liar liars. May the International trade associations punish you, even in hell!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 15, 2014 by MaxLee

[Spartakos]

No worries farmers today you get paid by your beloved government. I have not an ounce of doubt about it.

[darren84310]

Once again.... This is why PTP Thanksin must win an election and get back power asap, they will certainly use the infrastructure money to get themselves out of the shit in the short term, and that's all they're concerned with is the short term... F##K everyone else.

However, I don't think they will get the support from Isaan that they have had in the past, unless they pay them of course.

[rickirs]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

[JRSoul]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

This "done deal" was announced some time ago. What sort of deal doesn't include setting prices, order sizes and delivery deadlines?

[klauskunkel]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment. The ministry needs to clarify these points before it can finalise the deal with China.

The Commerce Ministry needs permission from the Election Commission to sell rice? Strange, but this is Thailand...

The Election Commission via letter maybe said yes to the deal, but the Commerce Ministry was not sure if the "maybe yes" was actually a "no". Strange, but this is Thailand...

Then the Commerce Minister said they can't proceed, because the "maybe yes" letter did not include pricing and logistics.

Listen up CM: The EC elected to say "maybe yes" to the deal. You have a letter from them, maybe. Now it's up to you, it's your job to set prices and time tables, that's why you are the CM.

If you want the EC to do this instead, then the EC would in effect be the CM, and then no need for you! You got all that? Then go ahead and finalize, maybe...

jeeeeez!

[Balance]

Did PTP not say farmers would be paid in 15th of Jan?

Thaksin ... you had better get you check book ready ... 555

Yes, Niwatthumrong said in a press conference late last month that all payments would be made by 14 January. It is too bad that all of the Thai politicians are such amateurs. The PTP had a chance to move a progressive agenda forward, but instead they blew it due to lack of experience and hubris.

[Ricardo]

This "done deal" was announced some time ago. What sort of deal doesn't include setting prices, order sizes and delivery deadlines?

"What sort of deal"

A PTP-dream one, which hasn't seen any contract inked, just a vague expression of possible interest, good enough to try to fool the taxpayers/rice-farmers/voters for a short time, but where there's still a shed-load of negotiating to be done, and probably nothing firm at the end of it all ?

Perhaps a new slogan would be appropriate, "Thaksin Dreams, PTP Fluffs It !"

[animatic]

This lack of funds to buy the rice vote up north is the chum in the water that is smelled by the opposition. A golden chance to prove to the Issan voters exactly what kind of duplicitous slime they have been voting for. All the promises were kept over the years by financial legerdemain and trickery, but now the bottom line has good deeply red and those in Issan not deeply red are beginning to realise the reality not the rosy pictures painted by the propaganda machine.

So now we get a do or die rally to remove the PTP puppets from the controls,

and prevent them 'Taking from Somchai to pay Boonchaing'...

Edited January 15, 2014 by animatic

[Robby nz]

Even if they can go ahead with the deal (if it exists) then when would the Govt get paid ?

Not till after delivery I wouldn't think, given that the recipients would first want to check what they have been given. (see US shipment returned, Ivory Coast 30% dumped because rotten )

The deal is supposed to be over a year so it would seem that the payments would be in stages over the year.

That being the case how is it going to help the farmers now ?

Looks like just another attempt to blame the protesters for Govt incompetence.

Who are they going to get to lend them 130billion ? They couldn't sell all the bonds they put up for tender even at above market rates.

The BAAC has said no to using its depositors money (liquidity) so that one is out.

Advice to minister :

When you are up to your ears in poo keep your mouth shut.

[dcutman]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

How does the EC seem unsure of their own authority?

They gave written approval to sell the rice. The EC does not renegotiate alleged deals with foreign countries, as Boonsongpaisan is suggesting they should have.

[Thait Spot]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

I would imagine that what he is saying is that if a deal had been done - as the PTP Government publically stated - then a contract would have been signed and the caretaker government would not need to make any new commitments and hence would stay within the law.

However, if the PTP was embellishing the facts, then, once again, it is caught with its collective pants down and the anger of the rice farmers will be there for all to witness

[JesseFrank]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

I would imagine that what he is saying is that if a deal had been done - as the PTP Government publically stated - then a contract would have been signed and the caretaker government would not need to make any new commitments and hence would stay within the law.

However, if the PTP was embellishing the facts, then, once again, it is caught with its collective pants down and the anger of the rice farmers will be there for all to witness

Don't even have to wait long for that .

RT @tulsathit: RT @Tulip_Oum: Rice farmers from 5 northern provinces to block Asia Hwy 117 Pitsanulok-Nakornsawan on Jan17.-@NationChannel24

RT @tulsathit: RT @Tulip_Oum: The farmers said last protest was to ask for rice price pledging scheme money. This time is to oust govt.-@NationChannel24

[dominique355]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

Especially if the Chinese buyer of the Thai rice turns out to be an office supplier firm with no business whatsoever in rice of any agricultural commodities. But, by all means, give the government the OK to deal with all and any fishy and corrupt dealer and hopefully fill their pockets with a hefty kick-back.

[LevelHead]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

Issan is booming --you said, WHERE ?? Much of the money has filtered down to the farmer which farmer, certainly not the little farm man that voted for PTP.

Maybe you are getting mixed up with the giant farmer that has-the big business ones that have benefitted along with the other pilferers.

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

[whybother]

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

The scam part is that the "channel" has huge leaks.

[allan michaud]

As usual the numbers are very confusing but from what I see here they have bought 50m tonnes between 2010 and 2013 for B700billion and they are buying another 10 now (2013/14 season)

While they fail to say how much they have sold they have made B180billion, which if they sold it at the same price means that have sold only around 17% (given the real price it is probably more like 30% to make 180billion) So that means there should be upwards of 30m tonnes left to sell? Yet they state they only have 15mill tones left, 5 of which is awaiting shipment? <deleted>?

Of course this latest load of bull is just PTP trying to pass the buck as to why they can’t pay the farmers. Given they are now 5 months late paying I don’t think the farmers will fall for that, particularly as many probably owe most of it to loan sharks by now.

There is a Chinese/Thai woman (loanshark) in Khon Kaen that told us that she charged 10% per month interest and took peoples cars as collateral. She said she now had over 30 cars as so many people could not pay it back.