New rules. I will need actual teaching degree to teach in Thailand?

[Sceptict11]

I think we can drop the comparisons with Dr.'s and a few other professions. Let's remember that not all teachers here are English teachers. We have people teaching Physics, Chemistry, Advanced Mathematics and other specialized subjects. They teach in English, but they do not teach English.

I am sure you are correct !

The issue at hand is are they professional, qualified Teachers or just pretend "wannabes "

The test of course is to ask about these "teachers" experience of "teaching" Physics, Chemistry, Advanced Mathematics and other specialized subjects in the West

[simon43]

Another concern.

If the Thai authorities insist on 'fully-qualified; teachers, but fail to provide an acceptable employment package, might we see a high turnover of young, qualified teachers, who will simply use Thailand as a temporary staging post where they can gain some further hands-on experience, before moving on to better positions in other countries?

I'm sure that this scenario exists in a similar form right now, where schools employ unqualified teachers who are simply passing through Thailand on their backpacking holiday.

If Thai authorities really want to ensure that Thai children have the best teachers that money can buy, (well, the money that is left after the pigs at the trough are full), then they need to match the qualification requirement with a decent employment package (salary, CPD, decent curriculum, teacher support, teacher respect, no 'everyone passes' etc etc).

And that, as I said before will NEVER happen. So let's stop trying to fool ourselves, because this thread is discussing a purely hypothetical situation

[Scott]

Sceptict11, when you get to the upper Mathyom level and specialized courses, most of the people I have dealt with had a degree in the subject they were teaching. A few had a degree in education as well, but I can assure you that a degree in elementary education doesn't help a lot when you are teaching Physics to students in a science stream (upper Mathyom).

We have never had a teacher in Mathyom for science or mathematics who did not have degree.

I don't know if the Teacher's Council and the MOE have thought through all the different scenarios that will be affected by their decisions.

[Sceptict11]

Another concern.

If the Thai authorities insist on 'fully-qualified; teachers, but fail to provide an acceptable employment package, might we see a high turnover of young, qualified teachers, who will simply use Thailand as a temporary staging post where they can gain some further hands-on experience, before moving on to better positions in other countries?

I'm sure that this scenario exists in a similar form right now, where schools employ unqualified teachers who are simply passing through Thailand on their backpacking holiday.

If Thai authorities really want to ensure that Thai children have the best teachers that money can buy, (well, the money that is left after the pigs at the trough are full), then they need to match the qualification requirement with a decent employment package (salary, CPD, decent curriculum, teacher support, teacher respect, no 'everyone passes' etc etc).

And that, as I said before will NEVER happen. So let's stop trying to fool ourselves, because this thread is discussing a purely hypothetical situation

Again you may be correct !

Good, well qualified teachers do not come cheap ! --------

An anecdote !

I met a young 21 year old boy who told me he was "teaching" English in a Thai school.

This boy had a broad Jordie accent and when challenged as to his qualification(s) for "teaching" became abusive !

Nb Jordie -----an uneducated "English accent" prevalent in NE England

[tingtong]

If the Thai authorities are moving toward ensuring only fully qualified professional people are employed to educate Thai children is that not something to applaud ?

Indeed it is. But since these Thai aUthorities will NEVER come close to paying these professional teachers a salary or employment package that is compatible to neighbouring countries, the dissent in this thread is simply trying to help those authorities from boxing themselves into a corner.

It would be rather difficult for a Thai to admit that they screwed it all up due to lack of forethought....

Simon

Is that a argument for continuing with non professional , poorly educated "teachers" .?

I believe children deserve better.

let phrase it another way:

is a so called "properly educated" teacher with no experience better to teach than someone who is "poorly educated" but has 4-6 years of actual teaching behind?

while you have many things right, about doctors or engineers or lawyers or pilots, those are usually jobs where they have long apprenticeships/on job experience to gain before they allow to operate/work on their own.

they dont just take the school exam, do maybe 20 hours supervised practice and good to go.

would for a teacher be different, or would be that some existing teaching experience, especially locally gained trump a freshly printed diploma?

did you know, that some places ( like my country) kids with teacher diploma are actually the highest number who leave their profession for something else?

Anyway, if any real solution for Thailand, is that they teach their locals to a level, that when they graduate as an English teacher, they are able to actually speak the language. If you are from a non-English speaking country like me, you would probably find that most language teachers arent NES, but locals, however with a lot better grasp of the language they trying to teach, than the Thai language teachers here.

And jost one more time, Thailand is a pretty big country, and while the big cities are covered, and kids generally might have acces to a better qualified teacher, rural kids often dont even have English classes, simple, because the Thai teacher dont know how to speak even, or even missing completely, as my son's school it was last year...

Now, such, or a "poorly educated" but experienced foreigner...i would go for the later as a parents, any time.

[Sceptict11]

If the Thai authorities are moving toward ensuring only fully qualified professional people are employed to educate Thai children is that not something to applaud ?

Indeed it is. But since these Thai aUthorities will NEVER come close to paying these professional teachers a salary or employment package that is compatible to neighbouring countries, the dissent in this thread is simply trying to help those authorities from boxing themselves into a corner.

It would be rather difficult for a Thai to admit that they screwed it all up due to lack of forethought....

Simon

Is that a argument for continuing with non professional , poorly educated "teachers" .?

I believe children deserve better.

let phrase it another way:

is a so called "properly educated" teacher with no experience better to teach than someone who is "poorly educated" but has 4-6 years of actual teaching behind?

while you have many things right, about doctors or engineers or lawyers or pilots, those are usually jobs where they have long apprenticeships/on job experience to gain before they allow to operate/work on their own.

they dont just take the school exam, do maybe 20 hours supervised practice and good to go.

would for a teacher be different, or would be that some existing teaching experience, especially locally gained trump a freshly printed diploma?

did you know, that some places ( like my country) kids with teacher diploma are actually the highest number who leave their profession for something else?

Anyway, if any real solution for Thailand, is that they teach their locals to a level, that when they graduate as an English teacher, they are able to actually speak the language. If you are from a non-English speaking country like me, you would probably find that most language teachers arent NES, but locals, however with a lot better grasp of the language they trying to teach, than the Thai language teachers here.

And jost one more time, Thailand is a pretty big country, and while the big cities are covered, and kids generally might have acces to a better qualified teacher, rural kids often dont even have English classes, simple, because the Thai teacher dont know how to speak even, or even missing completely, as my son's school it was last year...

Now, such, or a "poorly educated" but experienced foreigner...i would go for the later as a parents, any time.

I would love to subject you to the care of an "experienced" but poorly educated and unqualified doctor , lawyer or pilot !

Edited January 19, 2014 by Sceptict11

[Yooyung]

Yooyung. Two thoughts. Couldn't you do evenings at ABAC to get a teaching cert? If you were to do a yesr at home you could get a much better paid and possibly more rewarding job in a different school.

The thought has crossed my mind. However, we cant ALL teach at international schools. There are a lot of jobs in private/government schools at both primary and secondary level. The pay isnt bad and I enjoy the job well enough. Infact, I dont really want to work at an international school. There is a middle ground here somewhere.....

I am not against bettering myself. I am against shovelling cow manure uphill though, which is what me going home to get a grad dip in education, only to come back to the same conditions/pay would be. I dont want to teach only the elites, I like teaching kids that may not get everything handed to them on a plate. The pay I get now isnt bad, it could be better but I am happy enough. With privates etc it can be pretty good.

[Notable]

Youyoung is correct, the standard of English taught by Thai nationals is in the main very poor. You only need to go into your local bookshop and pic up any English language work book and you'll see it's littered with errors. Unfortunately things won't change here either, ASEAN membership or not.

[Yooyung]

And by the way, I am NOT having a go at the Thais/Thai teachers. I am just pointing out the real situation here. In la la land maybe all Thai schools can be turned into international schools, with teachers fully qualified from their home countries and oddles of experience......Schools with proper equiptment, air con and fans that actually work, Thai teachers that are fluent in every aspect of the English language, a curriculum that can be followed by all that is practical and makes sense......but that isnt going to happen.

I worry for the future of the students that I teach. They are really going to be up against it in the future. The AEC is coming and they are hopeleslly out of their league. Its a sad situation. Getting rid of a load of NES around now is NOT the answer. Ok, a degree is a good standard, have a TEFL cert, make sure people arent criminals.......but DONT insist on me doing this extra step unless Thailand is actually going to turn into the la la land that it would need to be.

[hotrod4098]

as i have said before...teaching english is just a way of earning some money to stay in thailand...look at some of the ages of them..late 20 mid 30..where have they got any experience of teaching in a class room... most have never been employed in there own country..let alone a teacher training course... spoke to may so called teachers in sisaket...guess what...most where from bangkok ...backpackers ,who did not want to go home,,so where just earning a few bhat to remain in thailand... you do not become a good teacher with out classroom skills..and thai class rooms are very hard to teach... nearly every one takes the option of teaching when they dont have any money.... why should thai children be taught by non teachers..IE...no qualifications...

[Notable]

Interestingly enough the best English speaking Thais are usually bar girls. They get to meet plenty of foreigners and practice speaking English almost everyday. I doubt if there's much grammar being taught either, mostly oral I should imagine.

[bundoi]

Alex, if you really love Thailand, I would suggest considering an online/distance PGCE from a uni in your country while you work in Thailand because sooner or later (probably sooner) a postgrad or Bachelor's in Education will be required here. Also this will open up the doors to higher level and higher paid work (though not necessarily more personally rewarding).

You will be able to find work here with your current qualifications while you do the PGCE or equivalent.

That's my plan. That's why I am hoping the provisional permit will still be available as I would like to live and work in Thailand while I complete my study and become fully qualified and then when the time comes to apply for a proper teaching permit then I will have a teaching degree plus experience as required.

Sounds like a good plan. I don't know how long you've been observing this forum, but, as you can see, there's a huge amount of personal angst here dressed up as "the best for the kids" or "we're trying to advise the Thai MoE". The best way to avoid this angst is to get qualified: the professional world is getting more competitive every day in Thailand, and everywhere else for that matter, and it will continue to do so.

There may well be NES conversational assistant roles in the future, and it's a great option for retirees wanting an alternative to daytime tv (or daytime TV), or younger people trying to extend their stay here, but it's not a career option, never has been, never will be.

[Sceptict11]

Alex, if you really love Thailand, I would suggest considering an online/distance PGCE from a uni in your country while you work in Thailand because sooner or later (probably sooner) a postgrad or Bachelor's in Education will be required here. Also this will open up the doors to higher level and higher paid work (though not necessarily more personally rewarding).

You will be able to find work here with your current qualifications while you do the PGCE or equivalent.

That's my plan. That's why I am hoping the provisional permit will still be available as I would like to live and work in Thailand while I complete my study and become fully qualified and then when the time comes to apply for a proper teaching permit then I will have a teaching degree plus experience as required.

Sounds like a good plan. I don't know how long you've been observing this forum, but, as you can see, there's a huge amount of personal angst here dressed up as "the best for the kids" or "we're trying to advise the Thai MoE". The best way to avoid this angst is to get qualified: the professional world is getting more competitive every day in Thailand, and everywhere else for that matter, and it will continue to do so.

There may well be NES conversational assistant roles in the future, and it's a great option for retirees wanting an alternative to daytime tv (or daytime TV), or younger people trying to extend their stay here, but it's not a career option, never has been, never will be.

A sensible , well considered post ------------it was a long time in the making !

Thank you

[culicine]

The Thai authorities will never see a time when every foreign teacher here has an education degree, unless they doubled the average basic salaries. If anything salaries have steadily declined. These people are in the business of making money, educational concerns are almost certainly secondary.

I can attest salaries are barely more than they were 15 years ago. 25K up country and it's still 25K or thereabouts. Compare that with massive increases in living costs (petrol has tripled, food doubled), combined with stricter licencing requirements, and there you have it. The number of foreign teachers available in Thailand has dramatically decreased, and spawned many of the numerous agencies we see now. Most of those teachers, while perhaps having a degree and teff, are here for a very short time. Most leave after a few months to a year, when they realise teaching her is not so easy.

[sushi5734]

It's a complete fantasy by the MoE, but that won't stop quite a few people being put through a lot of stress and anxiety.

As for the people trolling 'get qualified or leave' I doubt that any of you are teachers, qualified or not and probably haven't been within 500 meters of a Thai school. Anyone who has taught in Thailand would immediately recognise how ludicrous these proposals are.

Most people in my country UK take an undergraduate degree then move on to a PGCE after graduation, not too many people take a 4 year education degree. The main reason for this is that qualified teachers need specialist knowledge i.e. if your going to teach maths then you should have a degree in the field of mathematics. The one year PGCE is mainly classroom based with continual observation from teaching mentors as well as your lecturers, it's pretty intensive and stressful by all accounts. The latest government training scheme puts graduates in the classroom after just 6 weeks.

The gap between a graduate and a Newly Qualified Teacher who has taken and passed a PGCE is not completely unsurpassable and, I know this is insane and I doubt it will happen, but why not provide a training course to bridge that gap?

I have a BSc so I feel that I have the subject knowledge to teach my subject, however over the years I have watched, listened to advice from both Thai and foreign teachers, some qualified, some not, even some without degrees, who I consider to better teachers than me, as they have far more experience than I do.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tingtong]

I would love to subject you to the care of an "experienced" but poorly educated and unqualified doctor , lawyer or pilot !

i live in Thailand, thus subjected all the above regularly, i am afraid!

[bundoi]

It's a complete fantasy by the MoE, but that won't stop quite a few people being put through a lot of stress and anxiety. As for the people trolling 'get qualified or leave' I doubt that any of you are teachers, qualified or not and probably haven't been within 500 meters of a Thai school. Anyone who has taught in Thailand would immediately recognise how ludicrous these proposals are. Most people in my country UK take an undergraduate degree then move on to a PGCE after graduation, not too many people take a 4 year education degree. The main reason for this is that qualified teachers need specialist knowledge i.e. if your going to teach maths then you should have a degree in the field of mathematics. The one year PGCE is mainly classroom based with continual observation from teaching mentors as well as your lecturers, it's pretty intensive and stressful by all accounts. The latest government training scheme puts graduates in the classroom after just 6 weeks. The gap between a graduate and a Newly Qualified Teacher who has taken and passed a PGCE is not completely unsurpassable and, I know this is insane and I doubt it will happen, but why not provide a training course to bridge that gap? I have a BSc so I feel that I have the subject knowledge to teach my subject, however over the years I have watched, listened to advice from both Thai and foreign teachers, some qualified, some not, even some without degrees, who I consider to better teachers than me, as they have far more experience than I do. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well the MoE makes the rules here, so their "fantasy" is your reality. The main thrust of these proposals is simply that people who work as teachers shoud be qualified as such. This is common sense to many of us; any parent would agree.

By the way, I am not trolling when I say "get qualified or leave", I am simply trying to advise unqualified people of their best alternatives; in the not too distant future there will be no place here for unqualified "teachers".

[tingtong]

I dont claim to teach no one, really. Never claimed

The kids in the village school dont converse much, how could? Their English class exist more on paper than reality.

And I am sure not qualified to teach English....at the same time more qualified practice some with them than their Thai teacher.

However, what I do is spend some time in the school.

Do that for FREE!

Speak to them some of the basic stuff, like what is your name, where do you line, etc.

Just 2x a week, while I am between jobs.

And IF that would make me bad in your eyes, well, I wont care. I dont feel that I do any damage to them, compare to what they had before, in fact it is rather an improvement. Else the school wouldnt ask me to do it, and wouldnt be happy that it is volunteer, unpaid help!

I am not making a living from this, nor planned ever to do so.

I just want to give back something to the locals who accept me here. As I stated, very few foreigners around here, this aint Pattaya, or Chiang Mai!

[JimsKnight]

As of now, teachers can obtain a provisional license (waiver). You can teach, but you will eventually have to get yourself fully legal.

I don't know that the OP is paranoid. Sometimes it really does feel like they are out to get us.

It's the way the country is going. Slowly but surely Thailand is copying rules and over-regulation that is all the rage in the west at the moment.

A small part of me is glad that they are doing this, the other yearns for the old days when Thailand would do it's own thing and not be swayed into following the rule-makers elsewhere.

For the past decade or so the country has been going this way unfortunately. Everywhere it's getting harder to live and thrive unless you are a multi-millionaire.

[Notable]

There do seem to be some people on here who have convinced themselves that the MOE are going to be requiring foreign teachers to have a teaching degree. There's no way that will ever happen, they will most likely ask for the same criteria all the other ASEAN members have. BA plus Celta to Tesol. I have a BA in marketing from the UK and a BA in Thai language and culture from KK university. I still think however that there will be many teachers working here without the required qualifications, despite any changes the MOE make. People who think otherwise should take a trip up north and see how hard it is for schools to get teachers who are willing to stay in the remote areas.

[bundoi]

or 6 week cours

There do seem to be some people on here who have convinced themselves that the MOE are going to be requiring foreign teachers to have a teaching degree. There's no way that will ever happen, they will most likely ask for the same criteria all the other ASEAN members have. BA plus Celta to Tesol. I have a BA in marketing from the UK and a BA in Thai language and culture from KK university. I still think however that there will be many teachers working here without the required qualifications, despite any changes the MOE make. People who think otherwise should take a trip up north and see how hard it is for schools to get teachers who are willing to stay in the remote areas.

"No way it will ever happen" ? It's already happening, has been for a long time, that's what the waiver is in lieu of !

ASEAN countries are not a homogenous whole.

Your qualifications are exceptional, you should be proud.

Things often look a bit a weird when you're on the outside.

CELTA and TESOL: well you know these acronyms mean different things to different people and in different countries: 52 week course good eg PGCE ; 4 or 6 week course - waste of money eg CELTA / TEFL , buy the book: 600 -1000 baht.

[Notable]

The MOE require teachers to take a cultural course and then to pass an exam to obtain the teachers licence. How can you possibly define that as requiring an ED? A PGCE, CELTA or TESOL along with a BA (any subject) is what will be required.

[bundoi]

The MOE require teachers to take a cultural course and then to pass an exam to obtain the teachers licence. How can you possibly define that as requiring an ED? A PGCE, CELTA or TESOL along with a BA (any subject) is what will be required.

Didn't you see the other thread about the changing requirements ? (OK it was the Nation.... hmm)

PGCE - 52 weeks is a postgrad MA equivalent (in my country anyway) but CELTA/TESOL/TEFL is just 4 weeks commercial certifcate - not comparable.

Edited January 19, 2014 by bundoi

[F4UCorsair]

If you did not study successfully to become a teacher in your home country, or have not obtained a diploma in social education, I ask you not to teach in Thailand, for the sake of the kids.

Schools are hiring no native English teachers that can barely speak English. Perhaps dodgy diplomas eh.

Soooooo perhaps kids have a better chance of learning English via someone from England.

Oh well Native English teachers will now have to go to Korea where they are paid 3 times as much plus free housing and airfares and don't have to jump through hoops like teachers trying to work in Thailand have to do.

That's the free market at work. Hopefully the Thai education system will catch up, realize what's happening and why there aren't sufficient English teachers there, and change their ways............hopefully.

[F4UCorsair]

I received an 'offer' a few days back by email from a TEFL organization offering franchises for their product. I binned it so can't say who it was, but probably the same organization with which I did an online TEFL course a couple of years ago, only for interest with no intention of ever teaching English in SE Asia, and they are suggesting that one of the biggest markets is Australia!! Yep, Australia!! I can only imagine that they're pitching it at the so called 'boat people' arrivals, but not sure.

The course I did certainly wasn't what I would have considered good, and probably closer to a poor standard, although I have nothing to compare it with. It was so notable that I don't even remember the organization's name!! I do have a certificate somewhere though.

Australian market for TEFL????

[fifthcolumn]

Just for the record, in the US an Education degree will only get you as far as K-6. Grades above not only want, but it is a requirement to have single subject competency. So if you are slagging a degree in Design and Fashion from some dicey for-profit school, I'm with you. If you are stating that a degree from an accredited college or university in the liberal arts not acceptable, these teachers form the core of teaching in the US.

I'd seen written here, and quite agree. In the US, an Ed has two functions: BA Ed is for teaching young children. An MA is for working the administration jobs.

It's single subject plus Praxis. Please stop going on sbout how great and important an Ed degree is to teaching. It is not. It's focus is educating and managing children. These people outside that know nothing and nothing.

So Education diploma for 7-12 students, totally underqualifed and unacceptable in the US.

In most states, you are required to take a course load much like the quantity of a CELTA but for teaching conversational English in the third world, imo a good TEFL suffices, especially on what they pay.

The fact you have taught for years and have no degree means nothing unless you have taught for years in Bangkok. You were able to keep your head afloat in a region that there is zero competition and which you are the great arbiter of the English language for 100km around is not much of a standard.

Experience can mean something and usually does. Must it? No, not at all.

I really wish those without degrees stop crying about their plight as this goes further south. The fact is that an ivy league grad with top marks in History would not be given a job under this pending scheme.

Really tired of reading people whinge on about lack of a degree. You conciously thought throughout your life that a degree in a waste of time and money (really, you have an ability to spply yourselves, follow direction and lack follow thru). You kept thinking this failed mentality well into your thirties. You ran away from your home country because any decent job required a diploma and wadhed up here.

You had zero possibility to teach in Bangkok, so you went up to Nakon Nowhere where you ate the smartest person in 250kms. Wow, you are a natural. You found your way into a teaching job and after some years, are doing not a bad job. You think that because you continue to temain hired, snd that each year that passes is greater validation of your superior teaching skills.

Funny, you think its all a big waste, you know it all. Yeah those fools Kurudapa asking fir diplomas! Vanderbilt and Columbia teachers college. Idiots! Waste! You, yourself thru osmosis have absorbed what others pay thousands and waste years.

What a bunch of idiots!

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[Notable]

Fifthcolumn, you're deluding yourself if you think unqualified teachers can't get jobs in BKK. There are many working with no degree, or a fake one. People with dodgy credentials continue to get employment in the UK and USA, what chance does Thailand have of stopping the practice.

[Thai at Heart]

Why can't they just mandate that uncertified new teachers can only teach certain subjects to certain age groups and that qualified teachers are required to teach beyond a certain level?

[Notable]

I was sat talking to 5 teachers last night, they were all young grads from the U.S on their first trip here. All but one of them will be leaving after next month. They like many others were disillusioned with the students apathetic attitudes and the system itself. It's sad for Thailand that they keep repeating the same old mistakes, educational, political and otherwise.