Travelling from dover to calais with thai wife

[cerbera]

my wife has just got her visitors visa for UK.

Im a Uk national and we are legally married. we intend to travel from England to france, and possibly onwards to spain and Italy.

from previous posts ive read the fact that she is married to a EEA national and we have four kids with british passports means that she doesn't need a shengen visa.?

would anyone know whether a French translation of our marriage certificate would be a good idea.

thanks

[liddelljohn]

She needs a schengen visa and that could be a problem ,

i used to travel with my thai wife Dover calais in my dads car with schengen visas sourced in Bangkok from the french embassy regularly and tour in europe for 2-3 weeks until 3 years ago now we cant get them for this type of travel ,, even though my wife has 10 years UK visit visa and previous 6 schengen trips ,, we travel to uk twice a year , now to get a schengen visa YOU have to have air tickets into a EU country , UK does not count and pre booked holiday/ hotel plans and ferry trips and car holidays dont count , Its not the French , Belgian , Dutch or Spanish embassies in Bangkok that make this stupid regulation It is VFS companies and Brussels bureaucrats that have caused this anomally.

[howerde]

If she is not settled in uk, then she will need a schengen visa,

Under eu freedom of movement you should be able to travel in europe if you have your marriage certificate and translation, but this is a bit hit and miss, depending on the person and if you want to argue the toss with french immigration, i would apply for a schengen ast the french embassy in bangkok, to be safe

Edited February 5, 2014 by howerde

[7by7]

Strictly speaking, provided she can prove that she is your wife and she is travelling with or to join you then she doesn't need a Schengen visa; but it will save possible delays and questioning when entering the Schengen area if she has one; particulalrly if entering via France.
See "Arriving at the border without an entry visa" here.

As you are an EU national, her Schengen visa should be quick, easy to obtain and free.

An English translation should suffice, but most Schengen states, certainly France, require the translation to be legalised by the Thai MFA.

Knowing the French, it probably is a good idea to have a French translation, also legalised, too.

[SantiSuk]

She needs a schengen visa and that could be a problem ,

i used to travel with my thai wife Dover calais in my dads car with schengen visas sourced in Bangkok from the french embassy regularly and tour in europe for 2-3 weeks until 3 years ago now we cant get them for this type of travel ,, even though my wife has 10 years UK visit visa and previous 6 schengen trips ,, we travel to uk twice a year , now to get a schengen visa YOU have to have air tickets into a EU country , UK does not count and pre booked holiday/ hotel plans and ferry trips and car holidays dont count , Its not the French , Belgian , Dutch or Spanish embassies in Bangkok that make this stupid regulation It is VFS companies and Brussels bureaucrats that have caused this anomally.

Not sure what "VFS" companies have to do with French Schengen visas?? The processing of these in Thailand is done by TLS Contact which is of a corporate group that is not related to VFS.

Also the Schengen visa application form for France in Bangkok still seems to afford the exemptions to spouses of British etc citizens which at least states (by dint of a starred footnote) that travel plans do not need to be provided (amongst other exemptions).

I bow to your more recent experience Liddlejohn and I certainly don't want to diss you, but I would advise the OP to double check that you are fully correct given those two facts. OP needs to register on the website and will be given a tailored list of documents that are required. I had German Schengen visas for my family last year and French 2 to 3 years ago. I don't recall the need for flight tickets into the country but I may be wrong on that and it may well have changed for France, as you state.

[matsky13]

Sanitsuk, idlejohn , 7 by 7 ....Maybe you are all right ,My experience last year getting a Schengen for my wife for travel to Greece while my wife was in the UK on a Visitor visa ,
The Greek embassy in Bangkok kept insisting I had Air tickets for travel to Greece , I could not get legitimate ones , I did not know when we would be traveling. it was work, and availability dependent . maybe we would not even go . so to have airline tickets was not possible . We where told to book some in a local travel agents and just get a reservasion , but it would have been a sham . I insisted they should give us a visa as it was my right .I did give details of family we would be staying with inc name address , tax details etc,etc . I honestly think they cold easily have declined us regardless of my insistence . If it was not for my 2 cute children in the waiting room maybe we would not have got them .

It should be a bit more cut and dried . but usualy people are running around Bangkok , with all sorts of worrys on there minds , getting Schengen Visas for hollidays ,is just another headache . MFA translations etc, etc . Nothing is easy .

For me we where glad (if not a little lucky )we did it .

Good luck which ever way you do it , please get back on Thai Visa and let us all know if you manage your trip or not .

[cerbera]

Thankyou for the replies. we live in chiang mai. So it was a big hassle for my wife to fly there and back unsure of the situation in Bangkok and then to be charged an extra 1500 THB to submit application on a Saturday.

I don't want to put her through that again. (and the extra expense) if she has to attend the French embassy in Bangkok for her Schengen.

[sometimewoodworker]

Thankyou for the replies. we live in chiang mai. So it was a big hassle for my wife to fly there and back unsure of the situation in Bangkok and then to be charged an extra 1500 THB to submit application on a Saturday.

I don't want to put her through that again. (and the extra expense) if she has to attend the French embassy in Bangkok for her Schengen.

A point to note is that any Schengen visa from any county permits travel to any and all other Schengen countries.

When my wife and I went to France we got her Schengen visa from the Norwegian embassy. I did say that we planned to visit our friends there, but plans can and did change and that doesn't invalidate the visa.

When we visited at 11am we were 2nd to visit the consular section that day. I did have to point out (I had a printout of the fee costs) that as my wife was married to a British citizen there was no fee to pay.

I decided to use the Norwegian embassy as the French embassy was reported to be much more trouble.

YMMV

[liddelljohn]

When I could get Schengen visas from Embassies it was easy then but The french now use TLS ( as i was Corrected) and most of the other use a similar type of company VFS does several and they work to a rigid formula issued by BRUSSELS EU bureaucrats with no consular officials in the loop unless you appeal ,, i have tried 3 times and actually know some og the french visa officials well from the old days when the embassy was the visa source and they have no say in the procedure anymore ,,

I do have a work around my wife an easily get Danish visa.s as he sister lives there , then we cross from denmark into germany by car very easily ..we borrow my Danish brother in laws car or rent one .

Also tried applying whilst in UK but takes too long and they also want itemised travel itinery.

my thai neice and boyfriend get Schengen visa s easily for package tours in mainland europe but not via side trips to UK

Edited February 6, 2014 by liddelljohn

[Gutterboy]

MFA in Bangkok is closed at the moment. Good news is there is a "legalization department" right there in Chiang Mai which is part of the MFA and can do this stuff for you. Contact any of the translator companies (there's a few next to the British Embassy) and they can help you with this. Got a certified copy of my passport there just last week, used a great service called Asia Translator - 053 416 358 Good luck!

[7by7]

Liddelljohn, with respect, your posts makes no sense; unless you, yourself, are not an EEA national.

Both TLS and VFS are clearing houses; they collect applications, forward them to the embassy and receive passports and decisions back to give/send to the applicant.

They do not make any decisions about issuing visas; no matter which country has employed their services.

Different country's have different procedures; but for most Schengen states the decision is made in post at the embassy concerned.

If the applicant is a qualifying family member of an EEA national and travelling with or to join that family member then they base (or should base) their decision on the EEA freedom of movement regulations. These regulations clearly state that qualifying family members do not need to meet all the requirements which others do; this includes flight and hotel bookings.

Also the application should be free.

You are correct about one thing; Schengen visas do have to be applied for in the applicant's country of residence. Therefore someone in the UK as a visitor cannot apply for one in the UK; unless they have a serious and compassionate reason for urgently needing to visit a Schengen state.

[a99az]

Wow, glad we took the European route to the UK now as my wife has her Spanish residents card. That should save so much trouble if we want to visit any EU country.

[liddelljohn]

Star member I am a UK passport holder ,, but since the embassies now have these Companies in the loop wether its TLS ,MAF or VFS or any of the others, I and many other poeople who easily got Schengen visas for spouses in the past can NO longer get them for independent travel especially from UK via ferry and cars ,, The visa companies theselves wont even refer them onto the embassy as travel from UK to EU area does not compute with the criteria they work too .. my wife has a business here owns 13 properties and has UK and Thai credit cards she can easily get Schengen visa if she books a tour into any Schengen country but we cannot get a Schengen visa to travel by ferry from UK since 2008 .

This has been my experience , my wife flys to UK twice a year on her multi entry visa and sometimes to Denmark on a danish visa , never has an issue ,,, but applying to travel from UK via Dover , or Newhaven is not allowed according to The criteria the officials in bangkok refer too . I tried agin in October with both french and belgium embassies but application was not even accepted they wanted air tickets and pre booked hotels package , Road travel via ferry or channel tunnel is not accepted ,

My wife is flying to UK again with our daighter on 28 march for 4 weeks and then on to Denmark for 5 days before returning to Thailand , it would be great to have a trip over to normandy with my family and my old dad or even further afield ,we have a nice Saab to travel in and used to go all over europe in it when my wife had schengen visas

I have wasted a lot of time and energy for last 4 years on this schengen nonsense and travel from UK my wife has visted , switzerland , slovakia with direct flights in last 3 years , our daughter has UK and Thai passports so has no problems , she could get one for a direct flight into france for sure .

[humqdpf]

She needs a schengen visa and that could be a problem ,

i used to travel with my thai wife Dover calais in my dads car with schengen visas sourced in Bangkok from the french embassy regularly and tour in europe for 2-3 weeks until 3 years ago now we cant get them for this type of travel ,, even though my wife has 10 years UK visit visa and previous 6 schengen trips ,, we travel to uk twice a year , now to get a schengen visa YOU have to have air tickets into a EU country , UK does not count and pre booked holiday/ hotel plans and ferry trips and car holidays dont count , Its not the French , Belgian , Dutch or Spanish embassies in Bangkok that make this stupid regulation It is VFS companies and Brussels bureaucrats that have caused this anomally.

Try all the ways of getting the schlengen visa for your wife, including making the application in London as well as in Bangkok. It would help if you could get a written invitation from a relative or old friend in France.

In making the application on each occasion, make sure that you do it in person and bring the whole family along with their passports - of course, everyone should be super polite and well dressed but if the youngest should feel the need to cry because they wont get to see grandma/best friend in France, that would be OK too.

Make sure you document everything, dates of visits to visa section of the French Embassy, if you can, get the name of each official spoken to, what they said and any grounds provided for rejecting the application. Always ask for the right of appeal, if any, and complete the appeal process to the letter. Make sure to write an official letter to the head of Visa section and a separate letter to the Ambassador. You and your wife should sign those letters.

If none of it works, start by contacting your local Member of European Parliament in the UK and complain, making sure to document the problem. Then go to your local newspaper in the UK, making sure that the newspaper calls the embassy in question and France Tourism (French Tourist Board) and office in Brussels that deals with Schlengen. (You can do the footwork yourself by calling the offices for their response and just provide the newspaper with the numbers and the quotes fr them to check). Then send copies of the newspaper article to all of those plus the usual large outlets for news, such as the BBC, ITV, the big newspapers etc. If you are really industrious, you can prepare a stock letter and press release with photos all written up in French and send them and the article to various media outlets in France, showing how French Tourism is losing out. Make sure that you have originals and photocopies of all correspondence to hand if anyone wants to read them.

Newspapers often publish stuff that does not require much work on their part - well-written press releases are often reproduced word for word even in qualify newspapers. As the French economy is not doing so well right now, you might find that the issue gains traction there. If you do all of this, you should be prepared for you and your family to appear on any TV or radio program or newspaper interview at the drop of a hat.

The "dog days" of July are probably the best to pull this stunt as it is before the big shut-down in August and yet most of the parliament and other institutions that feed the news media are shut - therefore more likely that your story gets on the air or in the newspapers.

Yes, this is a bit of work and it is only for the type of person who is patient and who gets a kick out of making those bureaucrats' lives a little bit uncomfortable.

If you are not that type of person, don't try to do it.

Alternatively, if you have a lot of money, you could consider taking a legal case, claiming that your human rights and that of your family members have been affected as has your rights under EU law to go anywhere with your family in the EU. THis will cost you hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars, if not over a million in legal fees. If, like the rest of us, you dont have millions and are not the kind of person mentioned above, just give in and forget about visiting the Schlengen Area until someone else makes a stink and the stupid rules are changed.

Good luck

[7by7]

Her EEA freedom of movement rights depend upon you; the EEA national.

If she is travelling alone, then the EEA regulations do not apply and she has to make and pay for a full application with all the required evidence.

If she is travelling with or to join you, then the EEA regulations do apply so she doesn't need flights, invitations, hotel bookings etc. and the visa is free.

She cannot apply in the UK unless she is resident in the UK.

Denmark is in the Schengen area.

If you are having problems, then you can complain via or get advice and/or assistance from SOLVIT.

[liddelljohn]

The french embassy officials in bangkok has actually been very helpful ,i have made good friens od 2 of them but They do not have the power to grant visa for travel from UK to france if NOT by air ,that is in the Rules designated by Brussels and supersedes the power discretion of the Embassy staff .they actually also think its absurd .

I am a very patient person i have to get visas all the time for my offshore work and my wife has many visas too , we are always very business like and polite , we have tried crossing in April 2012 from UK via the channel tunnel but the staff refused my wife even with a danish Schengen visa we ended up having a day trip to dover castle , as France is the point of entry i have a neice who lives in paris who always give us a reference etc ,thats how she got 4 previous French schengen visas before 2009 but that is when one could go direct to the french embassy who then had discretion ,

i dont have time to go to court , Human rights cases take years in EU .

I work offshore 5 months of the year spend 4 months here in thailand and up to 3 in UK or EU on holiday , I have written letters to The Sussex MEPs and also to Solvit maybe they will get an answer .

I have also spoken to many other pattaya resident s mainly British and some of the visa agent and it seems I am not the only one who has had this problem.Pattaya and Bangkok visa agents will not even take on a case for non flight visa status from UK to France or anywhere else in EU since 2010 and the word from them is that it the embassies used to grant Non flight travel from UK but It is a Brussels rule that prevents this .

Its a minor irritant for my family with work arounds but its seems so stupid and petty foggingly bureaucratic ...

but just try getting a Chinese Z work visa in Bangkok or london ,both are nightmares ,and its all put in perspective , my company now sends me to Singapore for 5 days of 4* rest to get Chinese visas quickly , A recent Abudhabi offshore medical ( a farcical 20 minute joke) and 2 hour security clearance update which is a formality as i have them every year and took 10 days on full pay in a good hotel which is nice for me .They dont accept UK or norweigan medicals but you could turn up dead to an Abudhabi one and pass if your agent pays the correct baksheesh

[Jay Sata]

It's all very well people suggesting UK passport holders don't need a Schengen visa for their spouse to visit France but being refused entry

and the inconvenience that goes with it is just not worth the risk.

Better to get it sorted in advance and enjoy the trip stress free.

[7by7]

The french embassy officials in bangkok has actually been very helpful ,i have made good friens od 2 of them but They do not have the power to grant visa for travel from UK to france if NOT by air ,that is in the Rules designated by Brussels and supersedes the power discretion of the Embassy staff .they actually also think its absurd

I simply do not understand this.

The French embassy visa staff in any country decide visa applications for France. Where the traveller is going before going to France and their means of transport from there to France is of no concern to them and there is no EU or EEA regulation of which I am aware which says differently; although I would be happy to be pointed toward any such regulation.

Many people have obtained both a UK visit visa and a Schengen visa from France travelled to the UK, then to France via train, Eurotunnel or ferry and then back to the UK or onward to another Schengen state without anything like the problems you, or rather your wife, seems to suffer.

Theoldgit, moderator of this forum, and his partner being one example.

A Schengen visa issued by one state, e.g. Denmark, is valid for all Schengen states, including France. If questioned by French immigration simply saying that one is driving from the UK to Denmark via France, etc. should be sufficient.

You and your wife seem to have suffered greatly from misinformation and incompetence from French embassy and immigration staff; maybe a complaint via SOLVIT is in order?

[Petergreet]

If the applicant is a qualifying family member of an EEA national and travelling with or to join that family member then they base (or should base) their decision on the EEA freedom of movement regulations. These regulations clearly state that qualifying family members do not need to meet all the requirements which others do; this includes flight and hotel bookings.

Also the application should be free.

unfortunately this is no longer true. The visa is free, courtesy of eu regulations......however, the various agencies, tls,vfs etc are entitled to charge you a fee for processing your application and has just about all the embassies use an agent, these applications are no longer free.

[Donutz]

If the applicant is a qualifying family member of an EEA national and travelling with or to join that family member then they base (or should base) their decision on the EEA freedom of movement regulations. These regulations clearly state that qualifying family members do not need to meet all the requirements which others do; this includes flight and hotel bookings.

Also the application should be free.

unfortunately this is no longer true. The visa is free, courtesy of eu regulations......however, the various agencies, tls,vfs etc are entitled to charge you a fee for processing your application and has just about all the embassies use an agent, these applications are no longer free.

For Schengen visa the use of a service provider is (or atleast should be) entirely optional as the Visa Code clearly dicates that one can always make an application directly at the embassy without the use of a service provider such as VFS Global or TRL Contact. Thus without any extra costs such as service fees. Take the Schengen embassies in Thailand for instance, some only use direct applications (the German embassy for instance), some give you the option of a direct application or using VFS or TRL (the French embassy, Swedisch embassy, the Italian embassy), others make no mention at all of a direct application and will direct you to VFS or TRL (the Austrian embassy, the Belgian embassy, the Spanish embassy, the Dutch embassy, ...). The latter embassies thus violating the Schengen Visa Code, article 17 to be precise. I figure some Schengen embassies need a slap on the wrist from EU (Schengen) authorities...

Thus normal applicants should have the option of only paying 60 euro's for a Schengen visum. Those that can apply for a visa fee waiver (family members of EU citizens at an other embassy then the embassy of their nationality) should have no costs at all, unless ofcourse you chose to use the "services" of VFS Global or TLS Contact. I'd prefer not to though.

Edit: To quote article 17: the regulation (EC) No 810/2009, Community Code on Visa, Article 17, item no. 5 dictates:

"5. The Member State(s) concerned shall maintain the possibility for all applicants to lodge their applications directly at its/their consulates."

Failing to mention the option of a direct application (without use of external service provider, service charge etc.) also seems to violate Article 47 “Information to the general public” of the Visa Code.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Donutz

[liddelljohn]

My wife picked up another Danish schengen visa today easy as she has had 4 before , and she asked if she would be able to travel to Denmark by car from UK via france ,belgium , germany into denmark , the danish official went away and 10 minutes later came back with an emphatic NO , according to EU Schengen visa rules ammended 2009 she has to fly from UK to Europe no Sea or rail (eg: Channel tunnel) allowed from UK , However once in Europe she has free travel over all land borders by car , ferry bus train etc so the danish embassy confirms what Belgium, French and Spanish embassies have told me they all think its ridiculous of course and it was not so before 2009 .

Curiously no one can explain to me why this rule was changed even more curious is that we can pick her up in Denmark at her sister and drive through Schengen areas to France and return via ferry or Tunnel to UK with her UK 10 year visitors visa and that s allowed.

I sent a registered letter last week and 2 emails to Solvit asking all these questions as well as why certain Embassies refuse direct visa applications and insist on Agent companies like TLS and VFS ,,, no reply yet

[theoldgit]

What I can tell you is that my partner and I travelled from the UK to France in September last year on the Eurostar, and from the UK to Brussels in October, again on the Eurostar.

Her itinerary was detailed in her application and copies of our train tickets supplied, the travel plans were not queried by the Consular staff, or indeed by the Immigration Officers at the departure point.

I know numerous people who have made similar journeys.

I don't doubt that you were given that advice but I can see no reason why you shouldn't be permitted to travel on that route and nor am I aware of any EU edict.

[Donutz]

What strange info from various ebassies. Reading the Visa Code (regulation (EC) No 810/2009) and Visa Handbook:

- A passport of the Thai spouse, pasport copy of the EU national and marriage certificate (legalized by the Thai authorities, possible translated aswell, no need for stamps from your local embassy) should be sufficient. All the applicant needs to say is that the Thai nationaland EU national will be going on a trip (holiday) to a Schengen country (other then the Schengen country of residence, that doesn't fall under "freedom of movement").

There is no need to show airtickets, hotelreservations or any other such things. They are not required. See the Visa Handbook, "PART III:SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO APPLICANTS WHO ARE FAMILY

MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS OR SWISS CITIZENS" and then "3.6. Supporting documents" and onward.

- There is no need to go through external service providers such as VFS and TLS (see above post, see article 17 of the Visa code, see "4.3. The service fee" in the Visa Handbook)., sadly various embassies wrongly but intentionally vioalte the Shcengen treaty's Visa Code (The EC Home Affairs really should look into this IMHO).

- Ofcourse there is the option of a visa at the border (should work the other way around too: people from Schengen countries with their Thai spouse goingto the UK should be able to get a UK Visa at the border if they can prof they are family (spous) using the Marriage certificate as the only evidence that is needed besides ofcourse the passports. But not all borderguards may be aware or still want to ask some more questions thus leading to delays at te border, therefor it should be easier to get a visa in advance. A Schengen visa should be quick, completely free (no hidden costs) and easy to obtain for family members (again with just the marriage certificate for married people). The means of travel don't matter either, it's none of their business anyway if you go by plane, boat, train or on foot... A visa is a visa and if you have sufficient proof (the marriage certificate) they need to grant the visa. At the border you could always still be declined if they think something isn't quite right (fraud, Thai spouse is traveling alone rather then with the EU spouse etc.).

If embassies do make a hassle or other reluctant or outright illegal behaviour (such as direcing you to VFS or TLS, demaning more evidence then just the marriage certificate, more questions, an interivew -the Thai spouse doesn't need to answer any questions besides "I am joining my EU spouse in a holidaytrip to your country"- etc. etc.) all I can say is write to the authorities with a formal complaint: complain to the embassy, complain to their ministry of foreign affairs, contact SOLVIT, write a letter to the EC Home Affairs. Embassies can only be stopped bullying people if people are made aware about their rights and the (EU) authorities higher up the chain are informed about embassies violating the Visa Code agreements!

7by7's posts are therefor correct, sound and sollid and cover all that really needs to be covered. Good job 7!

I sent a registered letter last week and 2 emails to Solvit asking all these questions as well as why certain Embassies refuse direct visa applications and insist on Agent companies like TLS and VFS ,,, no reply yet

Good work John, that's atleast one step you can take about possibe additional others (writing more authorities with your observations and possible proof).

You are incorrect about the French embassy having to say in the visa approval and TLS now does this, this is false. See article 43 of the Visa Code:

"

Article 43

Cooperation with external service providers

1. Member States shall endeavour to cooperate with an external service provider together with one or more Member States, without prejudice to public procurement and competition rules.

2. Cooperation with an external service provider shall be based on a legal instrument that shall comply with the requirements set out in Annex X.

3. Member States shall, within the framework of local Schengen cooperation, exchange information about the selection of external service providers and the establishment of the terms and conditions of their respective legal instruments.

4. The examination of applications, interviews (where appropriate), the decision on applications and the printing and affixing of visa stickers shall be carried out only by the consulate.

5. External service providers shall not have access to the VIS under any circumstances. Access to the VIS shall be reserved exclusively to duly authorised staff of consulates.

6. An external service provider may be entrusted with the performance of one or more of the following tasks:

(a) providing general information on visa requirements and application forms;

( informing the applicant of the required supporting documents, on the basis of a checklist;

© collecting data and applications (including collection of biometric identifiers) and transmitting the application to the consulate;

(d) collecting the visa fee;

(e) managing the appointments for appearance in person at the consulate or at the external service provider;

(f) collecting the travel documents, including a refusal notification if applicable, from the consulate and returning them to the applicant.

(...)

"

It wouldn't make any sense either since article 17 clearly dictates that you can make applications (and this includes reservations for an application) directly at the embassy at all times. Would be rather odd if they'd ship it to a commercial (crappy IMHO) company afterwards... More and more embassies to seem to centralize certain tasks though but it are still government officials who handle the application decisions etc.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Donutz

[liddelljohn]

Seems to me with the help of poster on this forum that the EU Schengen rules are not even fully understood or properly implemented by those who's job it is to administer them ,, sometimes this is due to ignorance and laziness and in other cases sheers jobsworth malpractice or deliberate evasion ,,,

I will try to complain and campaign to those who may be able to clean up the mess ans i have already found work arounds that suit my families agenda ,,,

The Schengen rules patchy implementation are rather like the UK settlement rules requirements for income which are clearly in breach of other EU rules regarding family freedom ,but which the UK sets at a level which precludes many regular people and which are being legally challended.