Some of you may know Dan Savage's sex-advice column, Savage Love; if you don't, you're in for a treat. His latest epistle, however, carries a warning for straights about the motives of America's Christian 5th column, especially regarding their nutty ideas over reproduction:

Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

Worth a read.

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/48539

This is more than just worth a read. This is the tip of the iceberg that could sink a Republic in the next few generations.

Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

These people are 'nut cases'. They are just pushing their own ideas under the guise of Christianity to make it sound more convincing. Idiots!

Nowhere in the bible is there any mention of sex being only for reproduction (quite the opposite). Contraception is not mentioned or condemned. My reading of scripture to establish its truth not to support my personal prejudices. It would be great if these guys did the same!

To suggest that the worlds woes are connected to the pill is preposterous! Furthermore making a link to abortion is, well, words fail me!!! That level of stupidity is beyond comment...

On a practical note, when I meet people like this they always have small families, what are they doing? (or not?). I come from a family of 8 sisters 3 brothers and mother and father. It is no fun and a constant struggle to make ends meet, also the family is just too large to be practical and over the years large families just drift apart. I can go years without seeing my siblings!

What are we to do? I personally blame the state of the world on these 'no-brainers'. Sad!

Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

These people are 'nut cases'. They are just pushing their own ideas under the guise of Christianity to make it sound more convincing. Idiots!

Nowhere in the bible is there any mention of sex being only for reproduction (quite the opposite). Contraception is not mentioned or condemned. My reading of scripture to establish its truth not to support my personal prejudices. It would be great if these guys did the same!

To suggest that the worlds woes are connected to the pill is preposterous! Furthermore making a link to abortion is, well, words fail me!!! That level of stupidity is beyond comment...

On a practical note, when I meet people like this they always have small families, what are they doing? (or not?). I come from a family of 8 sisters 3 brothers and mother and father. It is no fun and a constant struggle to make ends meet, also the family is just too large to be practical and over the years large families just drift apart. I can go years without seeing my siblings!

What are we to do? I personally blame the state of the world on these 'no-brainers'. Sad!

The Christian Tiger speaks.

Some of you may know Dan Savage's sex-advice column, Savage Love; if you don't, you're in for a treat. His latest epistle, however, carries a warning for straights about the motives of America's Christian 5th column, especially regarding their nutty ideas over reproduction:

Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/48539

But when you are as small-minded and fundamentalist as that lady, you probably DO make such a connection. But to be fair, she appears strong enough in her faith not to let facts get in the way.

These are the kind of people who shoot doctors who practice abortion, bomb clinics and so on. Give them a change of country, language and clothes and they are also the kind of people who become suicide bombers.

By the way, do I take it that the OP has an agenda here? It certainly looks like it to me.

Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

These people are 'nut cases'. They are just pushing their own ideas under the guise of Christianity to make it sound more convincing. Idiots!

Nowhere in the bible is there any mention of sex being only for reproduction (quite the opposite). Contraception is not mentioned or condemned. My reading of scripture to establish its truth not to support my personal prejudices. It would be great if these guys did the same!

To suggest that the worlds woes are connected to the pill is preposterous! Furthermore making a link to abortion is, well, words fail me!!! That level of stupidity is beyond comment...

On a practical note, when I meet people like this they always have small families, what are they doing? (or not?). I come from a family of 8 sisters 3 brothers and mother and father. It is no fun and a constant struggle to make ends meet, also the family is just too large to be practical and over the years large families just drift apart. I can go years without seeing my siblings!

What are we to do? I personally blame the state of the world on these 'no-brainers'. Sad!

The Christian Tiger speaks.

Thank you Bops - I take it we do agree on this?

Oh Yes!

Twisting religion to serve one's own ends has been done since religion began. I think certain Moslems are masters at it and the radical Christians in the U.S. pale in comparison.

Yes, if the quote is correct, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary would be a most powerful Baptist in Lousiville, KY, where my former roommate got a Master of Divinity Degree in the 1980's, during the grand purge of all liberals (both of them), all moderates (maybe five), and a dozen slandered conservatives. There was so much fear in the classrooms at that seminary, that one of his professors forbid tape recordings of his lectures. Until that time, Southern Seminary was considered the most intellectual and academic of the 8 or 9 graduate seminaries of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the most powerful NGO in the southern USA.

Let's see: during twenty years of marriage as a Baptist, including the ministry, I penetrated my wife's vagina over 4,000 times, creating nine pregnancies, six of which made it through gestation. And I'm gay!

So, if the "American Taliban" has its way, you guys who really are straight back in the USA will need to make your woman or your womenfolks pregnant about TWENTY times, and don't you dare think about abortion.

Yes, it's a real danger to you straight "breeders."

Yes, if the quote is correct, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary would be a most powerful Baptist in Lousiville, KY, where my former roommate got a Master of Divinity Degree in the 1980's, during the grand purge of all liberals (both of them), all moderates (maybe five), and a dozen slandered conservatives. There was so much fear in the classrooms at that seminary, that one of his professors forbid tape recordings of his lectures. Until that time, Southern Seminary was considered the most intellectual and academic of the 8 or 9 graduate seminaries of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the most powerful NGO in the southern USA.

Let's see: during twenty years of marriage as a Baptist, including the ministry, I penetrated my wife's vagina over 4,000 times, creating nine pregnancies, six of which made it through gestation. And I'm gay!

So, if the "American Taliban" has its way, you guys who really are straight back in the USA will need to make your woman or your womenfolks pregnant about TWENTY times, and don't you dare think about abortion.

Yes, it's a real danger to you straight "breeders."

It's a dnager to everyone. People like this are turning back the clock on so many advancments, with Bush's help!! Ohio has taken away the right for Gays to get health care for fcks sake!! Any non-christian can be fired or refused work in any organization that is christian based and government funded!! This is BS and these people are in control!!

It's a dnager to everyone. People like this are turning back the clock on so many advancments, with Bush's help!! Ohio has taken away the right for Gays to get health care for fcks sake!! Any non-christian can be fired or refused work in any organization that is christian based and government funded!! This is BS and these people are in control!!

Wow! Is this true that people are being refused employment or fired because of 'religious' discrimination? Shocking!!!

It's a dnager to everyone. People like this are turning back the clock on so many advancments, with Bush's help!! Ohio has taken away the right for Gays to get health care for fcks sake!! Any non-christian can be fired or refused work in any organization that is christian based and government funded!! This is BS and these people are in control!!

Wow! Is this true that people are being refused employment or fired because of 'religious' discrimination? Shocking!!!

Yes, people were fired from the Salvation Army post in New York...becuase they were Jews. I believe one Jewish lady worked there for 30 years.

These people are saying the same things the Nazis said. Jews are behind the government and it's purge against Christianity and American values, even though these people have the most influence in the government right now.

Homosexuals have an agenda against Christians which the Jews are helping them with.

The Bible has answers to all politcal questions. They believe the Bible supports a flat tax!!

These people are traitors to the Republic and free peoples everywhere. If I could I would shoot them myself.

They don't have complete control yet though and other Christians are speaking out against them, there is still hope.

Well I'm glad other Christians are speaking out against them! If what yousay is true they are not being very 'Christian'.

Don't know if your solution of shooting them is very helpful though!

I agree that the bible has the answers to political questions, but for me that means not being involved in it! However, this is a big subject, and not one for this topic!

Well I'm glad other Christians are speaking out against them! If what yousay is true they are not being very 'Christian'. Agree completely.

Don't know if your solution of shooting them is very helpful though! Hard to take away people's freedoms when you are a rotting corpse.

I agree that the bible has the answers to political questions, but for me that means not being involved in it! However, this is a big subject, and not one for this topic!

Yes, Romans really opened my eyes when I read it.

I suppose I could be said here to have a pro-sex agenda, but I hardly think that would be an unpopular one.

"Steven"

Oh, to update this thread: apparently, the conservative machine in American is fighting the release of a vaccine which is 100% effective in preventing certain types of virally-caused cervical cancers in women.

Why?

You guessed it. It just encourages them to have sex. Disgusting. Here's the link:

http://www.americasdemocrats.org/republican_outrage.cfm

Oh, to update this thread: apparently, the conservative machine in American is fighting the release of a vaccine which is 100% effective in preventing certain types of virally-caused cervical cancers in women.

Why?

You guessed it. It just encourages them to have sex. Disgusting. Yes, very. How warpped does one have to be to deny someone a life saving drug. becasue they don't want people having sex? Here's the link:

http://www.americasdemocrats.org/republican_outrage.cfm

Oh, to update this thread: apparently, the conservative machine in American is fighting the release of a vaccine which is 100% effective in preventing certain types of virally-caused cervical cancers in women.

Why?

You guessed it. It just encourages them to have sex. Disgusting. Here's the link:

http://www.americasdemocrats.org/republican_outrage.cfm

Another interesting aspect of that is that it effectively kills about the only reasonable argument for male circumcision; that women with circumcised partners have a lower incidence of cervical cancer... But if there is a 100% efficient vaccine I guess we are now left with.... zero arguments (from a scientific point of view) why males should be circumcised.

Another interesting aspect of that is that it effectively kills about the only reasonable argument for male circumcision; that women with circumcised partners have a lower incidence of cervical cancer... But if there is a 100% efficient vaccine I guess we are now left with.... zero arguments (from a scientific point of view) why males should be circumcised.

Regarding male circumcision, I always thought it humourous that man would think himself wiser than the one who created his body. Who came up with that brilliant idea anyway?

hey PeaceBlondie ....... may I difress and ask you to expound upon Onanism (pun intended but a serious question so perhaps Suegha may understand the Biblical basis for some of this insanity

Another interesting aspect of that is that it effectively kills about the only reasonable argument for male circumcision; that women with circumcised partners have a lower incidence of cervical cancer... But if there is a 100% efficient vaccine I guess we are now left with.... zero arguments (from a scientific point of view) why males should be circumcised.

Regarding male circumcision, I always thought it humourous that man would think himself wiser than the one who created his body. Who came up with that brilliant idea anyway?

Obviously a remnant of a culture awed to death of the power of sexuality.

hey PeaceBlondie ....... may I difress and ask you to expound upon Onanism (pun intended but a serious question so perhaps Suegha may understand the Biblical basis for some of this insanity

The story of Onan is a perfect example of how screwed up the interpreters and word-creators can be about a story that says nothing of the sort.

Look in two decent dictionaries, and Onanism will almost surely be defined as masturbation. "Spilling one's seed on the ground." Nowhere in the Old or New Testament is there a direct reference to what we understand in English as masturbation.

Onan had an evil brother, so God killed the evil brother. In those days, if your brother died childless, the widow could exercise her right to produce children through a surviving brother-in-law, such as Onan. In fact, this was required by God, and is also referred to as "Levirite marriage," though it has little to do with tribe of Levi.

Onan's job was to impregnate his dead brother's widow. You know how a man does that, I'll assume. So Onan "went in unto her," but just before he spilt his juice, he retracted and spilt it on the ground. The technical Latin term for this is "coitus interruptus," which is also condemned (I guess) by the Catholic Church.

Since Onan disobeyed God by not finishing the job inside the widow's interior, God killed Onan.

Therefore, it follows that......God kills masturbators? Or do they just go blind? Or is it just when they refuse to impregnate their widowed sister-in-law, even if it feels good almost doing it?

...jdinasia, I'm not sure what suegha has to do with this story. Anyway, my view for decades, as a Christian even before I became a practicing homosexual, is that Onan wasn't masturbating. Finally, I decided that there is no Biblical teaching regarding masturbation, although the Law of Moses requires an inspection of the discharge, by the Levitical priest, in the event of "the uncleanliness that comes upon a man at night," meaning a seminal emission during unconscious sleep.

Sunday School class is over, and yes, that's how I teach the story in SS class.

I'm tempted to find some emoticons that illustrate the story, but a super moderator would delete them.

ADDED FIVE MINUTES LATER:

Wait, this just in from Genesis 38: not only is this an amazing story, but it's part of one where Judah (ancestor of Jews including Jesus) won't let Tamar get pregnant the Levitical way, so he goes out to find himself a bargirl, and there on the corner, is Tamar, disguised as a....proxtitute. He lies with her, inside her interior, and she finally becomes pregnant by her father in law, rather than from one of his sons (whom God keeps killing, purposely). When Judah discovers that his widowed daughter in law is pg, he gets ready to order her to be properly stoned, levitical style. Then she proves it's Judah's baby, and he lets the baby be born. Tamar is listed as one of only three female ancestresses of Jesus; another one was a harlot.

As a trained Baptist minister, let me just say that the Baptists don't know these stories well.

I must confess (as a Catholic would) that I've never understood the meaning of the story of Onan, either literally or figuratively. It doesn't make it clear whether it is masturbation; even if it is, so what? If it is coitus interruptus, this is even stranger as Catholicism approves this as natural birth control (or as most of us term it, Vatican roulette).

Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a sister-in-law.....

There are some reasons to read masturbation and birth control into the story of Onan ... as well as even an anti-gay thing ... in the form of deliberatly wasted seed .... (however being a Buddhist ... who cares

Here's the text, and Onan went in unto her:Genesis 38, Verses 6 to 10

[6] And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.

[7] And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

[9] And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

[10] And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

I thought the Catholics only permitted the rhythm method as an acceptable method of birth control. Surely coitus interruptus would be an unacceptable form of birth control, wouldn't it?

Not to argue, but coitus interruptus to a point only seconds before ejaculation is hardly just masturbation.

Back to the OP: the sex police on the far right religious wing want to tell you exactly what you can't do, and they don't know what their only authoritative texts say.

Interesting that I get mentioned in this thread. I did, however, post earlier in the thread, go back to page one.

The story of Onan is indeed proven above NOT to be masturbation but 'coitus interruptus'. However, it must be read in the context of the story, it in no way condemns coitus interruptus, but Onan's use of it to avoid making his dead brother's wife pregnant.

Like all bible stories - they must be read in context as otherwise you get the 'kneejerk' reactions made by so many bigots who use the 'out of context' story to support their bigotry!

Twisting the context of a story to serve one's own slanted viewpoint is typical of learned human nature. We're all 'guilty' of that.

suegha>> Thank you for reminding us that far from all religious people are nutcases with an extreme agenda.

Too much of the news these days revolve around the extremists and they do unfortuanly paint you all black.

although the Law of Moses requires an inspection of the discharge, by the Levitical priest, in the event of "the uncleanliness that comes upon a man at night," meaning a seminal emission during unconscious sleep.

Does that mean the vicar has to pop round and inspect your sheets if you have a wet dream?