Separatists Stab 29 to Death at Xinjiang Train Station : Xinhua

[Lite Beer]

CHINA
Separatists Stab 29 to Death at Xinjiang Train Station : Xinhua


Photo : AFP

Xinjiang separatists killed at least 29 people and wounded 130 in knife attacks at a railway station in southwestern China yesterday, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.

Police shot and killed at least four of more than 10 masked attackers who stabbed people at Kunming station yesterday afternoon, and were still hunting for the rest, Xinhua said. The injured were taken to more than 10 local hospitals in Kunming for treatment, it said.

President Xi Jinping sent Meng Jianzhu, the Communist Party's security chief, and the government's public security minister to Kunming, and urged severe punishment of the attackers and a crackdown on violent crimes to maintain social stability, Xinhua reported.

The attack, coming before next week's start of an annual nationwide legislative meeting, is the latest amid tensions between Han Chinese, who comprise more than 90 percent of China's population, and the Muslim Uighur minority in Xinjiang province.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemned the attack "in the strongest terms" and expressed hope "those responsible will be brought to justice," Xinhua reported.

-- The Nation 2014-03-02

[Tomtomtom69]

It happened at Kunming train station, which is in Yunnan province, not Xinjiang. The suspected perpetrators are/were from Xinjiang - get your facts straight.

[Chicog]

I think the Uighurs are going to get it in the neck this week.

[ttthailand]

Is this another Muslim radical group ? <deleted> is wrong with these people (animals).

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[tominbkk]

It happened at Kunming train station, which is in Yunnan province, not Xinjiang. The suspected perpetrators are/were from Xinjiang - get your facts straight.

Please don't expect much from the Nation. They decided that being a half rate newspaper was OK a long long time ago.

[Drafi]

Is this another Muslim radical group ? <deleted> is wrong with these people (animals).

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

They express their religious freedom as written in the Koran.

[Scott]

The article seems to indicate that they were separatists. Let's keep the focus on that. Continued anti-islamic posts which are not directly related to the OP will be deleted.

[Chicog]

The article seems to indicate that they were separatists. Let's keep the focus on that. Continued anti-islamic posts which are not directly related to the OP will be deleted.

The article also seemed to indicate that they were Muslim Uighurs though, Scott.

You can draw a parallel with Southern Thailand who are also "separatists", but who essentially want to create a separate Muslim state.

The line is a bit blurred on this I think.

Although I'm not sure the Chinese leadership will show similar restraint to the Thai government.

[7by7]

This is an appalling atrocity; but to attempt to blame Islam is pure ignorance and totally missing the point.

An atrocity committed by a separatist group who happen to be Muslim because the province they want independence for is populated by Muslims.

The IRA are a group who bomb and kill innocent passers by because they want Northern Ireland to leave the UK and become part of the RoI. They come from the Catholic community.

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

[Scott]

Some off-topic posts have been deleted.

We have a rule which will be enforced:

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

So the discussion will have to proceed without comments directed at the religion.

Please exercise care in what you say and how you say it, that's all.

[Somtamnication]

The Han Chinese have been taking over that part of the world for centuries. It will reach a boiling point at some point. They always encourage mass migration to "new" areas (Tibet, for example, run over by Hans).

[Steely Dan]

I see mentioning what might be the driving force for Uighur separatism has been ruled off limits. I I've visited Kunming on several occasions and saw the colossal speed with which the new (and enormous) train station was built. I have also visited Tibet. Whilst I do have sympathy with the way the Tibetans have been treated any sympathy I might have originally had with the Uighurs is rapidly evaporating on account of their behaving like savages. Is there any Country bordering the crescent of Islamic nations that is not blighted by (ahem) 'freedom fighters'? It makes even the totalitarian Chinese look enlightened in comparison.

[Chicog]

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

Would there have been atrocities if they were Protestant?

I think not.

[Scott]

Examples used as a comparison are OK, but the example is not the topic of the thread. A post has been deleted.

[rhythmworx]

What happened to the good old days when they would battle it out with a kung <deleted> fight?

They seem to be losing their cultural roots.

[folium]

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

Would there have been atrocities if they were Protestant?

I think not.

Nationalists can come in any religious form. Separatism requires all sorts of binding agents. Ethnic, cultural, linguistic, race, historical and a strong sense of grievance due to being peripheral, exploited, repressed or persecuted.

Xinjiang is a typical separatist conflict, ticking many of the above requirements, which is now being expanded beyond the province to Beijing, now Kunming. While not a sophisticated attack this outrage achieved its likely aim of gaining huge amounts of publicity and potentially acting to provoke a disproportionate response to generate new recruits.

Every religion has had its share of terrorists. Protestant paramilitaries ( in reality virulent, ignorant and chaotic nationalists) in Ulster murdered over 1000 people during the Troubles, 85% of whom were civilians who had the "misfortune" to be Catholic ( though not all were) as the UDA, UVF were too dumb/ incompetent to target the real bad guys.

[simple1]

I see mentioning what might be the driving force for Uighur separatism has been ruled off limits. I I've visited Kunming on several occasions and saw the colossal speed with which the new (and enormous) train station was built. I have also visited Tibet. Whilst I do have sympathy with the way the Tibetans have been treated any sympathy I might have originally had with the Uighurs is rapidly evaporating on account of their behaving like savages. Is there any Country bordering the crescent of Islamic nations that is not blighted by (ahem) 'freedom fighters'? It makes even the totalitarian Chinese look enlightened in comparison.

I agree with Folium the vicious killings were motivated by politics, not religion. Same applies to most killings in countries under varying forms of Islamic dictatorships. Chinese security forces are well known for the use of torture, excessive force, including killings, and very harsh treatment in prisons for anyone challenging the rule of the regeime.

[Steely Dan]

Why do threads like this so often scuttle down a diversionary rabbit hole hot on the heels of the IRA? The complex of ethno, religious, cultural yadda yadda reasons for separatist violence are so often framed in such a way to suggest the initial colonizer is the only party to have a say as to how the colonized fare. From a Chinese standpoint when they encountered a more advanced civilization, which in part colonized them they set about trying to learn from and copy from their colonizers in order to eventually compete with them. The Chinese are baffled by the response of the Muslim world to being colonized, namely an attitude of permanent grievance mixed with a superstitious belief that deviating from their original 7th century culture led to their subjugation, returning to it would somehow allow them to regain lost power - in a nutshell Wahabism.

The Chinese, Russians, British or French all acted to varying degrees as dictators, but the idea that all historic wrongs can be rectified is naive in the extreme. This does not excuse colonization, the Chinese would argue Tibet was a repressive feudal system before they invaded, but they were no liberators. The Chinese flag flies in the square below the Potala Palace in Lhasa, it also has to be displayed at every Mosque in China. Here we get to the nub of the problem. In the UK there is freedom of religion, no Union Jacks demanded, indeed hiding flags of St. George from minorities is the flavour of the month. Nevertheless I remember at the Synagogue I attended, every service ended with allegiance being given to the Queen and her parliament. Could this be said of some groups suffering from a set of factors I shall call the victim complex? The Chinese don't suffer from this wherever you find them in the world, nor do some other groups. Even in a dictatorial society, such as China or Russia, minorities can practice their own culture or religion, providing they have first loyalty to the state - This in a nutshell is impossible for those with the victim complex. I would ask anyone to take a look at all separatist factions throughout the world and conclude why assimilation with the ruling culture is so problematic, Imho it is the victim complex to blame as much as the colonizing culture.

[7by7]

Scott, sorry to wander of topic but the following remark needs addressing.

no Union Jacks demanded, indeed hiding flags of St. George from minorities is the flavour of the month.

Maybe you should visit the UK before making foolish comments like the above.

Union flags (it's not the Union Jack unless flown from the jack staff of a ship!) flown by all who wish to do so.

Ditto, in England, with the cross of St. George.

I am glad to say that these two flags have been rescued by ordinary, patriotic Brits and English, of all races and creeds, from the far right thugs.

Indeed, as I look out of my window I can see both flags flying proudly from the roof of my local town hall; in an area with a significant Muslim population.

Can we now stop the ignorant Islamaphobia and get back to the topic?

[Steely Dan]

Scott, sorry to wander of topic but the following remark needs addressing.

no Union Jacks demanded, indeed hiding flags of St. George from minorities is the flavour of the month.

Maybe you should visit the UK before making foolish comments like the above.

Union flags (it's not the Union Jack unless flown from the jack staff of a ship!) flown by all who wish to do so.

Ditto, in England, with the cross of St. George.

I am glad to say that these two flags have been rescued by ordinary, patriotic Brits and English, of all races and creeds, from the far right thugs.

Indeed, as I look out of my window I can see both flags flying proudly from the roof of my local town hall; in an area with a significant Muslim population.

Can we now stop the ignorant Islamaphobia and get back to the topic?

So you totally ignore the essence of my post, concerning the factors contributing to separatism versus assimilation and zero in on a peripheral comment regarding the flag of St. George. I will decline to give any link demonstrating my view, but suggest anyone interested can google "Flag of St George and Liberals" for sundry examples. I suspect many Chinese may well be suffering from your 'phobia', considering 29 were stabbed to death and over 100 injured just by going about their daily business getting to or from work.

[thequietman]

This is an appalling atrocity; but to attempt to blame Islam is pure ignorance and totally missing the point.

An atrocity committed by a separatist group who happen to be Muslim because the province they want independence for is populated by Muslims.

The IRA are a group who bomb and kill innocent passers by because they want Northern Ireland to leave the UK and become part of the RoI. They come from the Catholic community.

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

Nonsense. Members of the IRA consisted of both catholics and protestants. Irishmen, Englishmen, scots and welsh, all with Irish ancestry. Even some ex- British army. Many innocents were killed during the troubles, yes. If you are going to use an example try to get the information correct.

Irelands history is not relevant to this post so please leave it out. Thanks.

[simple1]

@Steely Dan: Bit wary to respond as concerned you will just use dialogue to repeat your mantra of anti-Islamic/Muslim sentiment, but will give it a go…

Why would any minority have ‘first loyalty to the State’ when the State has for years/decades been supressing them based upon on religious, political or ethnic grounds? History has generally proven that it’s a two way street to achieve peace with seperatists/insurgents, that is usually dictated by the State first listening & agreeing to make compromises via a political / economic process. It seems to be a better approach than a continuation of policies of oppression that gave rise to separatism in the first place in an endeavour to enforce the will of the State.

e.g. The Philippines where there has been an insurgency for 30+ years, 150k dead and god only knows at what cost. Finally come to the conclusion after 15 years of negotiation it’s a lot more reasonable to reach a political compromise for autonomy (that was the original position of the miltants) rather than ongoing misery for all parties.

[7by7]

This is an appalling atrocity; but to attempt to blame Islam is pure ignorance and totally missing the point.

An atrocity committed by a separatist group who happen to be Muslim because the province they want independence for is populated by Muslims.

The IRA are a group who bomb and kill innocent passers by because they want Northern Ireland to leave the UK and become part of the RoI. They come from the Catholic community.

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

Nonsense. Members of the IRA consisted of both catholics and protestants. Irishmen, Englishmen, scots and welsh, all with Irish ancestry. Even some ex- British army. Many innocents were killed during the troubles, yes. If you are going to use an example try to get the information correct.

You obviously have far more intimate knowledge of IRA membership than I, so I stand corrected.

However, ask any ordinary person in the street and they will hold the same opinion as to it's members as I.

Irelands history is not relevant to this post so please leave it out. Thanks.

I gave it as an example of how one cannot blame a whole community, or religion, for the acts of a violent few.

Therefore I think it is a relevant.

Certainly more relevant than Steely Dan's wholly incorrect rants about 'hiding' the Union Flag and Cross of St. George!

[Steely Dan]

@Steely Dan: Bit wary to respond as concerned you will just use dialogue to repeat your mantra of anti-Islamic/Muslim sentiment, but will give it a go…

Why would any minority have ‘first loyalty to the State’ when the State has for years/decades been supressing them based upon on religious, political or ethnic grounds? History has generally proven that it’s a two way street to achieve peace with seperatists/insurgents, that is usually dictated by the State first listening & agreeing to make compromises via a political / economic process. It seems to be a better approach than a continuation of policies of oppression that gave rise to separatism in the first place in an endeavour to enforce the will of the State.

e.g. The Philippines where there has been an insurgency for 30+ years, 150k dead and god only knows at what cost. Finally come to the conclusion after 15 years of negotiation it’s a lot more reasonable to reach a political compromise for autonomy (that was the original position of the miltants) rather than ongoing misery for all parties.

Indeed your position seems on the face of it reasonable. In order to answer I would observe that whatever other factors that contribute to bloody separatist violence are subordinate to the driving force of ideology. Ideology being broader than religion, as it includes communism for example. Indeed statistics on terrorist attacks show communists to take the silver medal behind the Islamists who take gold. I shall watch what happens in the Philippines with interest, seeing as it may be applicable to the Thai insurgency.

Negotiation sounds so reasonable, unless it leads to Islamist states governed by Sharia law, as per Afghanistan, or Iraq where Christians are being driven out or killed. Finally if it is oppressive policies that breed extremism how can you explain non assimilating ghettoes in Liberal Europe, which seem to supply a constant stream of Jihaddists heading to Syria, or whatever the flashpoint of the day may be.

I somehow doubt China, or any Country for that matter would agree to cede autonomy to any group that persecuted those not running the autonomous state.

[folium]

This is an appalling atrocity; but to attempt to blame Islam is pure ignorance and totally missing the point.

An atrocity committed by a separatist group who happen to be Muslim because the province they want independence for is populated by Muslims.

The IRA are a group who bomb and kill innocent passers by because they want Northern Ireland to leave the UK and become part of the RoI. They come from the Catholic community.

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

Nonsense. Members of the IRA consisted of both catholics and protestants. Irishmen, Englishmen, scots and welsh, all with Irish ancestry. Even some ex- British army. Many innocents were killed during the troubles, yes. If you are going to use an example try to get the information correct.

Irelands history is not relevant to this post so please leave it out. Thanks.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but apart from Ronnie Bunting and Noel Lyttle in INLA (not so surprisingly given it was more socialist than catholic in orientation) and David Russell in PIRA, what other active members of Irish nationalist paramilitaries were Protestant?

I served with an O'Neill from East Tyrone (and it would be hard to have better Catholic/nationalist credentials) who was wanted by the RUC so in a wonderful piece of logic decided that joining the British Army was the safest option!

Anyway I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of Irish nationalist paramilitaries in N. Ireland (be they stickies, provos or INLA) were Catholic by background, but the key point is that like Xinjiang religion is only one element in the glue that binds people together in what was fundamentally a political struggle for separatism.

[folium]

Why do threads like this so often scuttle down a diversionary rabbit hole hot on the heels of the IRA? The complex of ethno, religious, cultural yadda yadda reasons for separatist violence are so often framed in such a way to suggest the initial colonizer is the only party to have a say as to how the colonized fare. From a Chinese standpoint when they encountered a more advanced civilization, which in part colonized them they set about trying to learn from and copy from their colonizers in order to eventually compete with them. The Chinese are baffled by the response of the Muslim world to being colonized, namely an attitude of permanent grievance mixed with a superstitious belief that deviating from their original 7th century culture led to their subjugation, returning to it would somehow allow them to regain lost power - in a nutshell Wahabism.

The Chinese, Russians, British or French all acted to varying degrees as dictators, but the idea that all historic wrongs can be rectified is naive in the extreme. This does not excuse colonization, the Chinese would argue Tibet was a repressive feudal system before they invaded, but they were no liberators. The Chinese flag flies in the square below the Potala Palace in Lhasa, it also has to be displayed at every Mosque in China. Here we get to the nub of the problem. In the UK there is freedom of religion, no Union Jacks demanded, indeed hiding flags of St. George from minorities is the flavour of the month. Nevertheless I remember at the Synagogue I attended, every service ended with allegiance being given to the Queen and her parliament. Could this be said of some groups suffering from a set of factors I shall call the victim complex? The Chinese don't suffer from this wherever you find them in the world, nor do some other groups. Even in a dictatorial society, such as China or Russia, minorities can practice their own culture or religion, providing they have first loyalty to the state - This in a nutshell is impossible for those with the victim complex. I would ask anyone to take a look at all separatist factions throughout the world and conclude why assimilation with the ruling culture is so problematic, Imho it is the victim complex to blame as much as the colonizing culture.

Separatism is a fascinating subject and the frequent appearance of N. Ireland is simply down to the fact that it makes a great case study of separatism in terms of its causes and ways in which it was (largely) resolved, Also it is a situation which I personally and presumably others on this forum have first hand experience of, so get used to it!

The causes of separatism are rather like the triggers of migration. Highly complex, varied and are blended in unique mixes by every individual.

The key causes are as follows: (ripped out of the wiki page, which is actually pretty good)....

• emotional resentment of rival communities.
• protection from ethnic cleansing and genocide.
• justified resistance by victims of oppression, including denigration of their language, culture or religion.
• propaganda by those who hope to gain politically from intergroup conflict and hatred.
• the economic and political dominance of one group that does not share power and privilege in an egalitarian fashion.
• economic motivations: seeking to end economic exploitation by more powerful group or, conversely, to escape economic redistribution from a richer to a poorer group.
• preservation of threatened religious, language or other cultural tradition.
• destabilization from one separatist movement giving rise to others.
• geopolitical power vacuum from breakup of larger states or empires.
• continuing fragmentation as more and more states break up.
• feeling that the perceived nation was added to the larger state by illegitimate means.
• the perception that the state can no longer support one's own group or has betrayed their interests.
• opposition to political decisions
• wish to have a more practical political structure and not rely on people who are located far away to govern them or otherwise impractical solutions

The governmental responses to said separatism also comes in different flavours:

• accede to separatist demands
• improve the circumstances of disadvantaged minorities, be they religious, linguistic, territorial, economic or political
• adopt "asymmetric federalism" where different states have different relations to the central government depending on separatist demands or considerations
• allow minorities to win in political disputes about which they feel strongly, through parliamentary voting, referendum, etc.
• settle for a confederation relationship where there are only limited ties among states.

Examples of purely or largely religious driven separatism would include:

the Partition of India 1947

Zionism in Palestine/Israel up to 1948

Sikh aspiration for Khalistan

MNLF in Mindanao

Predominantly ethnic-driven separatist examples would include:

the Kurds in Syria/Iraq/Iran/Turkey

Tuaregs in W. Africa

the splintering of the former Soviet Republics in 1991

Chechens and other Caucasus ethnic groups

Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh

S.Ossetia & Abkhazia in Georgia

Basque (ETA), Catalan & Galician groups in Spain

Celtic separatism in the British Isles, Scottish/Welsh/Cornish nationalism, Irish republicanism

the split-up of Czechoslovakia in 1993

Flemish & Walloons in Belgium

French Canadians in Quebec

almost every conflict in sub-Saharan Africa since independence

Baluch separatists in Pakistan

Arakan, Chin, Wa, Kachin, Karen, Shan in Burma

Tamils in Sri Lanka

West Papua

Aceh Province, Sumatra

and of course the Uighurs in Xinjiang

but in all these cases the individual decision to follow a separatist path would be the result of many factors, with each individual weighting each factor differently.

Phenomenally complicated, utterly fascinating and immune to being boiled-down to a single, convenient trigger.

[Steely Dan]

@Folium,

Thanks for the considered response. Some of it may well be true some of the time, though it just about covers all bases without giving much faith that any lessons can be learned or progress made. Looking at the governmental responses listed, all of these have been tried in the past, not only with respect to separatism, but also with respect to problems caused by immigrants failing to assimilate. As I stated in my reply to Simple1, I believe ideology is the key driver in much of the world's terrorism.

So what do we make of the Uighurs and their long list of grievances?

http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/china-attackers-wanted-to-do-jihad-abroad-2014-03-05-1.540591

Qin Guangrong, Communist Party chief of Yunnan province where Kunming is located, said that the eight attackers "originally wanted to participate in 'jihad'," state media, including Xinhua news agency, reported.

"They could not leave from Yunnan, so they looked elsewhere, and went to Guangdong province, but also could not leave, so they returned to Yunnan," Qin was quoted as saying.

They then went to Yunnan's Honghe county, which borders Vietnam, where they planned, if they were unable to leave the country from there, to carry out jihad either in Honghe or at railway or bus stations in Kunming, he added.

So according to the Chinese the group were looking to participate in Jihad overseas (seems the Chinese media dare use the word) but opted for a local target when they were unable to do so. You may call this far fetched, yet hundreds of European nationals with no direct link to Syria turn up there to fight a holy war - you would have thought that the freedom of worship, provision of social welfare and Halal food might have placated them, but no. I don't doubt the Uighurs have some genuine grievances, but I would be prepared to bet that external agitators have a lot to do with the seeming increase in violence from them.

[robblok]

This is an appalling atrocity; but to attempt to blame Islam is pure ignorance and totally missing the point.

An atrocity committed by a separatist group who happen to be Muslim because the province they want independence for is populated by Muslims.

The IRA are a group who bomb and kill innocent passers by because they want Northern Ireland to leave the UK and become part of the RoI. They come from the Catholic community.

Anyone who blames Islam for this atrocity must also blame Catholicism for the atrocities of the IRA.

I just blame religion.. too many bad things done in the name of an invisible imaginary higher beeing.

[7by7]

http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/china-attackers-wanted-to-do-jihad-abroad-2014-03-05-1.540591

Qin Guangrong, Communist Party chief of Yunnan province where Kunming is located, said that the eight attackers "originally wanted to participate in 'jihad'," state media, including Xinhua news agency, reported.

"They could not leave from Yunnan, so they looked elsewhere, and went to Guangdong province, but also could not leave, so they returned to Yunnan," Qin was quoted as saying.

So according to the Chinese the group were looking to participate in Jihad overseas (seems the Chinese media dare use the word) but opted for a local target when they were unable to do so.

And of course, the Chinese government are renowned the world over for their tolerance and truthfulness!

You may call this far fetched, yet hundreds of European nationals with no direct link to Syria turn up there to fight a holy war

I don't know the reasons why they do; and neither do you. But hundreds is not very many when you consider the numbers of foreign nationals who have fought in similar conflicts in the past; the Spanish Civil War springs immediately to mind. Did they have a hidden agenda of world domination?

But isn't this a topic about China, not Syria?

[Steely Dan]

But isn't this a topic about China, not Syria?

I'll call your shamrock and raise you a road to Damascus.