Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[P45Mustang]

Which begs the question what was picked up four times pulsing at the appropriate interval and frequency to be a Black Box, and why would they be looking for it where they are?

Ah, I get it. The Malaysians planted it there.

And then moved it.

Gosh I'm getting good at this making s*** up stuff.

If the Aussie investigators are now expressing doubt, especially in light of no debris, maybe they have reservations about the authenticity of the pings.

Some expert said a while back the ocean is a very noisy place.

Doesn't necessarily mean rogue signals were a result of action by rogue humans.

[JesseFrank]

Which begs the question what was picked up four times pulsing at the appropriate interval and frequency to be a Black Box, and why would they be looking for it where they are?

Ah, I get it. The Malaysians planted it there.

And then moved it.

Gosh I'm getting good at this making s*** up stuff.

If the Aussie investigators are now expressing doubt, especially in light of no debris, maybe they have reservations about the authenticity of the pings.

Some expert said a while back the ocean is a very noisy place.

Doesn't necessarily mean rogue signals were a result of action by rogue humans.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/709464-missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-carrying-239-triggers-southeast-asia-search/?p=7722660

[P45Mustang]

makes one wonder why nobody did anything at the time ?

News today http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/russian-planes-shadowed-by-raf-1

I fail to see the connection with MH370?

Passenger plane goes missing, send up military planes to go looking?

Plane that failed to give a signal, was entering Vietnam airspace, it was followed by so say Thai airspace, Malaysia and Indonesia, and others yet no one gave a thought to go and investigate... after all it could have been a terrorist attack on any of these Countries

So connection yesterday + a few times in 2013, a plane failing to give a signal or acknowledge.. UK among other Countries send up a fighter plane to investigate [guess was night time and high ups that could have give such an order were all sleeping ?]

If terrorist attack or hoax/threatened terrorist attack, most likely target KL.

Thanks for the scramble on the military plane theory.

[NeverSure]

Actually, I was wondering why and how the signals from the "black boxes" were intermittent. They'd report hearing them for a few minutes, and then not again until the next day. They could never get them triangulated.

I didn't think that was how those things work. I thought they put out a pretty regular ping until the batteries went dead.

[P45Mustang]

As I understand it correctly the sequence of events was.

1. Inmarsat predicted possible location was S Indian Ocean.

2. Chinese and Aussies went there listening for pings.

3. Chinese and Aussies heard pings. But different pings.

Question: Why bother to place rogue pings in the area under investigation?

[3NUMBAS]

Actually, I was wondering why and how the signals from the "black boxes" were intermittent. They'd report hearing them for a few minutes, and then not again until the next day. They could never get them triangulated.

I didn't think that was how those things work. I thought they put out a pretty regular ping until the batteries went dead.

due to the rugged underwater terrain they bounce about and get lost is the theory ,high peaks and canyons so i read about .the pings have to travel thru 4 kilometres of water as they radiate out from the boxes .

quote

CNN) -- Put an ear to the ocean and listen carefully, but beware. The water may play tricks on you.

Are you sure you heard a ping from a black box, and if so, where did it coming from?

If you're searching for a locator pinger from missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, the answers to those questions are crucial to your success at finding it.

The small box may have sunk into mushy silt on the pitch dark floor of the ocean, under nearly three miles of water where the pressure is so great that it can crush a submarine.

Searcher: Water can play tricks on ears

Replicating dramatic altitude drop

CNN joins MH370 search over Indian Ocean

Sources: Plane flew as low as 4,000 feet

So, zero in the source of those pings, if you can. It won't be easy, given the way water behaves in the deep seas.

After pingers are dead, then what?

Water deafness

Anyone who has bobbed up and down in a swimming pool has noticed that things sound different in the water than they do in the air.

Above all, to humans, it's a lot quieter underwater -- nearly silent.

Humans hear sound mainly through the air, according to acoustic researchers from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. When your ears fill with water, it stops your eardrums from functioning.

But we also hear through our bones, principally our skulls, which prevents us from being completely deaf in the water.

"Bone conductivity is used to hear under water, but it is 40% less effective than air conductivity," NOAA says.

If it's so hard to hear underwater, you might think that sound travels faster and farther in air than in water. The opposite is true, NOAA says.

Sound waves zip through water at nearly 5,000 feet per second -- more than four times the speed that they do in air, which is at just over 1,100 feet per second.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/11/tech/innovation/mh-370-underwater-sound/

But that doesn't stop water from throwing nasty acoustic curve balls. Sound underwater often does not travel in a straight line.

Australian authorities have warned about this to temper enthusiasm that a detected ping might point back to the location of a pinger.

"Sound through the water is greatly affected by temperature, pressure and salinity," explained Peter Leavy, commander of the military task force conducting the search. "And that has the effect of attenuating, bending -- sometimes through 90 degrees -- sound waves."

Sound can take squirrely paths, traveling sideways enormous distances through the ocean without coming up near the surface to be heard.

Such dynamics make it necessary for searchers to record multiple pings and compare the data to try to locate the source.

Edited April 24, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[P45Mustang]

So are the Aussies concerned that it's a curved ball due to underwater acoustics and they are looking in the wrong place in the ocean?

Or are they concerned it's not in the Indian Ocean and somewhere completely different?

Still no debris in a large radius.

Presumably they remain concerned about both possibilities.

Not looking promising.

[P45Mustang]

By the way. If a military plane shot down an airliner would there be any satellite evidence of the incident?

And what would be the likely debris?

Easy to clean up with nobody noticing?

This may be covered in earlier posts I guess.

[3NUMBAS]

shocking new idea comes forth

quote

Malaysia Airlines MH370: Reports Speculate that Missing Plane May Have Landed and Not CrashedBy Divya Avasthy | IB Times – Wed, Apr 23, 2014

• Malaysia Airlines MH370: Reports Speculate that Missing Plane May Have Landed and …

The mystery of the vanished Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has taken a new twist with the international team probing the incident now considering the possibility that the plane may have landed rather than ended up in the Indian Ocean, according to various media reports.

International Investigation Team (IIT), it seems, have not gathered conclusive clues on what precisely may have happened to the flight, and are rethinking on how best to explain the disappearance of the jet.

This is because no debris has been found yet, and the underwater mission is 80% complete in the 10-km area around the locus of the 5 April pings, which according to the ocean search team had been the most promising lead.

Maritime experts have already warned that the pings detected in the ocean may not necessarily have originated from the airplane's black boxes.

Peter Herzig, Executive Director at Feomar Helmholt Centre for Oceanographic Research pointed out that the search area in the Indian Ocean is a noisy place where scores of planes and ships make rounds. Also, there is the possibility that the sounds may have come from other vessels passing in the vicinity at the time the pings were picked up.

Investigators are now considering other explanations to determine the fate of the missing Malaysia Airlines MH370, and have not dismissed the possibility of the plane having landed at an unknown location.

"The thought of it landing somewhere else is not impossible, as we have not found a single debris that could be linked to MH370... [but] the possibility of a specific country hiding the plane when more than 20 nations are searching for it, seems absurd," a source from IIT told the New Strait Times.

"We may have to regroup soon to look into this possibility if no positive results come back in the next few days... but at the same time, the search mission in the Indian Ocean must go on," the source said.

The possibility of the aircraft having crashed on some remote island in the ocean is also being explored.

However, the missing plane was carrying four emergency locater transmitters (ELTs) which transmit the aircraft's location to an emergency satellite in case of a crash or contact with water, the CNN reported.

Experts are puzzled over why the ELTs did not activate, and if they did, why the satellite had failed to pick up their signals.

When contacted Malaysia Airlines said it could not comment on "any questions that relate to information held by other authorities and/or fall under the jurisdiction of the ongoing investigation. ..."

The investigative team have also admitted that the earlier calculations derived from information provided by Inmarsat were not entirely reliable, because communication satellites cannot detect crucial details such as a plane's direction, altitude and speed.

"A communications satellite is meant for communication... the name is self-explanatory. The reason investigators were forced to adopt a new algorithm to calculate the last known location of MH370 was because there was no global positioning system following the aircraft as the transponder went off 45 minutes into the flight," one source noted.

Malaysia Airlines' Missing Flight MH370: Timeline of an Air Mystery

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/malaysia-airlines-mh370-reports-speculate-missing-plane-may-101741851.html#B2cvK2w

hold the death certificates for now...

[3NUMBAS]

shocking new idea comes forth ^

Edited April 24, 2014 by 3NUMBAS

[NeverSure]

I don't know what happened.

In the very first thread when this missing plane was first announced, I very quickly said something like "As an American having lived through 9/11, this makes me very suspicious." I was immediately laughed down. The post that laughed me down received lots of likes and became "popular."

I haven't changed my mind. IF any of what we have been told at times is true such as the plane turning just before 'Nam and turning off it's contact electronics, and having 7.5 hours of fuel on board is true, then a very experienced and determined pilot could have that plane on the ground in a country such as Somalia, Iran, Pakistan....

We just don't know what happened, or why.

LINK

And I'm still wondering.

[Carmine6]

Actually, I was wondering why and how the signals from the "black boxes" were intermittent. They'd report hearing them for a few minutes, and then not again until the next day. They could never get them triangulated.

I didn't think that was how those things work. I thought they put out a pretty regular ping until the batteries went dead.

Wasn't intermittent. It was 2 hours the first, and shorter for the last 3 signals. Basically a click every second continuously, but at whatever frequency that was, so can't just be heard by ear. The reported reason they can't just stop is they were towing it at 4,000 feet down, so the cable has to be much longer as it is way behind the ship. Maybe way back if there's a lot of drag. They can only do a big arc turn around. The second signal was after they turned back after the first. I saw a report where they said it had the right characteristics, of getting louder and clearer to a point, then getting worse on that 2 hour signal. Since they were almost near the end of their planned grid, they finished before turning back. Seems crazy, but that's what the guy said they did.

I also saw reports where they played the clicks, along with a video display on a screen along with it. Lots of noise in there as well, but there were clicks and the spikes on the screen. I haven't seen those videos available from the news reports, but here's a video of the screen and audio from just searching. About 20 secs in starts a video display with audio. 44 seconds in is a different display which seems to be a test as there are small spikes showing up about every second. The video on TV I saw was both of those displays but much wider and more distinct spikes in it, with louder audio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el61KlF-NWs

But, as I've said before, it is was pretty coincidental that both the Chinese and Australians reported signals right at the end of the battery life, and in one of the deepest parts of the ocean. Now they have this crazy story about maybe it is is somewhere else. If it wasn't the pinger, then what was it they reported? How many times did they say, they use that frequency because there's no natural source like that? Someone even got so far as saying matter of days until they found it after those second signals. I feel really bad for the families because it went from being a tragedy to where no one seems believable.

[canuckamuck]

Oh, goodness, I am going to feel really bad for deleting some of the conspiracy posts if this is accurate....

If you were sincere in your comment, you could at least have ended your post with, Sorry 3 times.

I am sincere, so here they are: Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Actually, I don't think there were very many (if any) posts deleted simply for being conspiracy theories, at least not by me. It's hard to call something a conspiracy when nobody seems to have a firm clue on what happened to that plane.

The term conspiracy has been so demonized, that these days, it only means an idea steeped in paranoid fantasy. In reality, what happened to this plane was either a conspiracy or an accident. Because if it wan't an accident, then someone conspired to either destroy, or steal this plane.

Everything that requires planning is a conspiracy of some type. But the normal use of this word is no longer possible because if you suggest a conspiracy of any type. Use it and you will be quickly mocked.

Of course the best reason to discourage the use of a concept like conspiracy (to make it politically incorrect to discuss conspiracy) would be that there are some very serious conspiracies that are being covered up.

It's like a leader saying it is wrong to question the leadership, and encouraging the people to shame those who do.

[ZigZagMan]

This event will go down in the conspiracy nut hall of fame. Even when they find the plane and black box, the tin foil hat brigade won't let it go...EVER.

I know a guy that still clings onto the moon landing hoax. Yes, all 6 moon landings were faked!

Many conspiracy nuts are that way because of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.)

They could have latched onto gambling, drinking, sex or any number of obsessive behaviors. Their brian chose the conspiracy theory to focus on.

The shameless 'conspiracy theory peddlers' make a living off these gullible conspiracy nuts.

[canuckamuck]

I would say that to conspire is a normal state of human thinking. Nearly everyone's life is partially covert. Some more than others. And so it is with groups and businesses and governments. History is full of conspiracy.

In this day and age if you don't think there are major conspiracies in play you have not been a student of history. Humans just can't help themselves.

[catterwell]

I would say that to conspire is a normal state of human thinking. Nearly everyone's life is partially covert. Some more than others. And so it is with groups and businesses and governments. History is full of conspiracy.

In this day and age if you don't think there are major conspiracies in play you have not been a student of history. Humans just can't help themselves.

A conspiracy requires the involvement of two or more persons. One or several persons may plot, but one alone cannot conspire.

[canuckamuck]

I would say that to conspire is a normal state of human thinking. Nearly everyone's life is partially covert. Some more than others. And so it is with groups and businesses and governments. History is full of conspiracy.

In this day and age if you don't think there are major conspiracies in play you have not been a student of history. Humans just can't help themselves.

A conspiracy requires the involvement of two or more persons. One or several persons may plot, but one alone cannot conspire.

You are right, but it changes very little about what I said. There is not a lot of difference between plotting and conspiring.

Edited April 25, 2014 by canuckamuck

[catterwell]

I would say that to conspire is a normal state of human thinking. Nearly everyone's life is partially covert. Some more than others. And so it is with groups and businesses and governments. History is full of conspiracy.

In this day and age if you don't think there are major conspiracies in play you have not been a student of history. Humans just can't help themselves.

A conspiracy requires the involvement of two or more persons. One or several persons may plot, but one alone cannot conspire.

You are right, but it changes very little about what I said. There is not a lot of difference between plotting and conspiring.

Maybe different for a schizophrenic?

[boomerangutang]

Well for me, if it's not in the Indian Ocean, I'd go for the Malaysia 'shoot down clean up story' as most likely.

If it was shot down and/or landed anywhere on Malaysian territory, then there would have to be at least a few who saw it.

I once took a bus from KL to Georgetown. During the day, at the top of a ridge, I wanted to look out a window and take in the view. Not possible, because I didn't have a window seat. Each side window was completely covered with dark curtains (and the windshield had decals so thick, that there was just a little patch for seeing the road). The message I got from that: Malaysians don't even want to know what's going on outside their little personal world. That's similar to Thais. Like the recent story, on video, of the small boat gliding within 3 meters of two little boys drowning on the Chao Praya river. The boat driver barely looked over to see why the boys were calling out 'help!''help!' and he (and other boat drivers) just kept on going to wherever they were going. The boys drowned in plain sight. That's the Asian way. To block out whatever is not directly needed for them to get from point A to point B. All else is other peoples' stuff, and not important.

[P45Mustang]

Oh, goodness, I am going to feel really bad for deleting some of the conspiracy posts if this is accurate....

If you were sincere in your comment, you could at least have ended your post with, Sorry 3 times.

I am sincere, so here they are: Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Actually, I don't think there were very many (if any) posts deleted simply for being conspiracy theories, at least not by me. It's hard to call something a conspiracy when nobody seems to have a firm clue on what happened to that plane.

The term conspiracy has been so demonized, that these days, it only means an idea steeped in paranoid fantasy. In reality, what happened to this plane was either a conspiracy or an accident. Because if it wan't an accident, then someone conspired to either destroy, or steal this plane.

Everything that requires planning is a conspiracy of some type. But the normal use of this word is no longer possible because if you suggest a conspiracy of any type. Use it and you will be quickly mocked.

Of course the best reason to discourage the use of a concept like conspiracy (to make it politically incorrect to discuss conspiracy) would be that there are some very serious conspiracies that are being covered up.

It's like a leader saying it is wrong to question the leadership, and encouraging the people to shame those who do.

Outstandingly well articulated if I may say so.

BTW. Some fascinating medical and scientific developments are coming from this social media thing called 'crowdsourcing'.

Throw the knowledge at a large body of joe public and sometimes you get something remarkable back.

Tangential views without bias or an agenda is the key.

[Scott]

It is a lovely little diversionary conversation, since there isn't much happening on the search front, but let's remember that the topic is about the Missing Malaysian plane.

[P45Mustang]

The investigative team have also admitted that the earlier calculations derived from information provided by Inmarsat were not entirely reliable, because communication satellites cannot detect crucial details such as a plane's direction, altitude and speed.

I find this statement incredibly ironic.

No doubt somebody on here can come up with a blindingly funny analogy.

The best I can do is: 'about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.'

[ZigZagMan]

The Inmarsat people back tested their ping location theory with 6 other sets of data from different flights.

They seemed confident they knew where MH370 was going.

[F4UCorsair]

I don't believe the shoot down theory, and the malaysians spent four days collecting debris before revealing it turned almost 180 degrees. The problem with that is that not everyone will keep their mouths shut. Someone is always seeking his 15 minutes of fame, so somebody would have leaked it by now, but that presumes more than one person was collecting debris, and there must have been hundreds.

[F4UCorsair]

The investigative team have also admitted that the earlier calculations derived from information provided by Inmarsat were not entirely reliable, because communication satellites cannot detect crucial details such as a plane's direction, altitude and speed.

I find this statement incredibly ironic.

No doubt somebody on here can come up with a blindingly funny analogy.

The best I can do is: 'about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.'

As I understood it, the pings to/intercepted by the Inmarsat satellite were ongoing, so the aircraft could be tracked by those??

Edited April 25, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[P45Mustang]

The investigative team have also admitted that the earlier calculations derived from information provided by Inmarsat were not entirely reliable, because communication satellites cannot detect crucial details such as a plane's direction, altitude and speed.

I find this statement incredibly ironic.

No doubt somebody on here can come up with a blindingly funny analogy.

The best I can do is: 'about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.'

As I understood it, the pings from the Inmarsat satellite were ongoing, so the aircraft could be tracked by those??

Don't know. Presumably they had good reason to go for the southerly arc, rather than the northerly arc.

[P45Mustang]

I don't believe the shoot down theory, and the malaysians spent four days collecting debris before revealing it turned almost 180 degrees. The problem with that is that not everyone will keep their mouths shut. Someone is always seeking his 15 minutes of fame, so somebody would have leaked it by now, but that presumes more than one person was collecting debris, and there must have been hundreds.

Don't know.

Military action directed by high ups?

'Need to know basis'?

Remote location?

Sounds like somebody somewhere is closing ranks.

[Credo]

The investigative team have also admitted that the earlier calculations derived from information provided by Inmarsat were not entirely reliable, because communication satellites cannot detect crucial details such as a plane's direction, altitude and speed.

I find this statement incredibly ironic.

No doubt somebody on here can come up with a blindingly funny analogy.

The best I can do is: 'about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.'

As I understood it, the pings from the Inmarsat satellite were ongoing, so the aircraft could be tracked by those??

Don't know. Presumably they had good reason to go for the southerly arc, rather than the northerly arc.

The Northerly arc would have put the plane in a much more populated area and thus it would probably been identified by someone, somewhere. It might have been a statistical decision, since the probability of not being identified was greater in the Southern arc. It's just a guess. I don't really know.

[coma]

Well for me, if it's not in the Indian Ocean, I'd go for the Malaysia 'shoot down clean up story' as most likely.

If it was shot down and/or landed anywhere on Malaysian territory, then there would have to be at least a few who saw it.

Don't forget that there are numerous people that claim to have seen it. From fisherman off the Malay Peninsular to people in the Maldives. Reports of a large aircraft flying over head at very low altitude. Some of these reports were out before it was announced that the aircraft did a 180.

But for what has come of it now is anybody's guess. You cannot keep such a secret as what would be required to make this aircraft, its passengers and crew disappear like this seems to have done.

[P45Mustang]

Well for me, if it's not in the Indian Ocean, I'd go for the Malaysia 'shoot down clean up story' as most likely.

If it was shot down and/or landed anywhere on Malaysian territory, then there would have to be at least a few who saw it.

Don't forget that there are numerous people that claim to have seen it. From fisherman off the Malay Peninsular to people in the Maldives. Reports of a large aircraft flying over head at very low altitude. Some of these reports were out before it was announced that the aircraft did a 180.

But for what has come of it now is anybody's guess. You cannot keep such a secret as what would be required to make this aircraft, its passengers and crew disappear like this seems to have done.

Good point.

I remember one report of an oil rig worker saying he thinks he saw it in flames in the sky at the time of it going off radar over the vietnam water.

This was within 12 hours of the reported loss.

Without thorough investigation of this possible sighting at the time and the continuing mystery of projected flight path based on questionable data (?)

the oil rig worker's comments are dismissed as 'you must have been seeing things.'