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Posted

NomadJoe

I believe some of your concerns regarding spearfishing have some merit but I believe the issues are better addressed by education and regulation to make the spearfishing sustainable than by banning spearing all together and allowing other fishing methods which are more destructive.

Here in Australia it was spearfishermen who saw some of the larger species begginning to decline and it was these spearfishermen who had the protection brought in for these species - The Blue groper is a prime example of this.

Often When I am spearing I swim past dozens and dozens of blue and brown groper, these fish are now probably more abundant than ever due to competing species and predatory sharks being a little less abundant due to all types fishing pressure, I also often see and swim past Black cod which were reduced in numbers many years ago by all types of fishing including spearing. now these black cod are getting more and more common even in areas openb to fishing and have zero pressure on them by resposible spearfishermen (though it may be possible some uneducated fool may shoot the odd one and if that were the case any responsible spearo would let him know in no uncertain terms that this is not on.)

All of my spearfishing friends are conseravtion minded and try our best to fish sustainably. we also encourage our local fisheries departments to increase size limits and reduce bag limits etc where we see the current ones are not working and happily accept practical rule changes that will see more fish available to everyone in the future, anyone would be a fool not to support this type of thing.

My only argument is with the people that want to totally ban spearfishing these people need to think a little more especially the ones who make statements that spearing is bad then buy fish from a restraunt or shop, which is more likely to have been caught by less sustainable methods.

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Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

AFAIK there are no shark fins for sale at Makro anymore. There used to be for sure at Tesco, but already 10 years ago or so we got sales banned via Tesco headquarters.

If you do see them, make a photo and inform Makro headquarters, or somebody else who is willing to take action.

  • Like 2
Posted

Wicked world, if the shark kill someone, they will be hunting for the killer shark, now some one kill shark and it became a news, animal has soul, but once they die, the soul die with them. Human have soul, so when human die, the soul live and he/she faces what they sows on earth, mean he faces judgement, i see no reason people prosecuting human being because of the animal they kill.

How the hell you think you know this, no one knows for sure.

Posted

Possibly a russian who got sick of the food from 7/11 and decided he wanted some fresh fish,but did not want to pay for a fish supper at a resturant.

Yer possibly....or possibly a French, German , English, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Israeli, Chinese, Japanese, Australian, American or any other of the hundreds of foreign nationalities that live in Thailand.

Posted
Quote from NomadJoe

"Spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear

that selectively targets larger fish relative to

other fishing gears and can significantly alter

abundance and size structure of target species

toward fewer and smaller fish"


The above statement is not only gramatically incorrect - "spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear" - should that not say Highly efficient harvesting method ?


It is also completely wrong for as many if not more species of fish than those for which it would be correct, a large number of fish are very timid and easily spooked by divers either freediving or using scuba and extre,mely difficult to approach within spearing distance especially after one has been taken from a school the rest of those fish will be nearly impossible to approach, these fish are much easier to harvest by line.


Posted

Last time I dived in Thailand I saw a very large fish trap on a reef there plus a fair amount of discarded line and netting we removed some line and netting where we could, however as we were freediving in stroing currents at reasonable depths it was not safe or practical to remove all the debris we saw and not being aware of legality of fish trap which may be a local fishermans means of survival we made no attempt to interfere with that.

More Illogical and emotional raving by uneducated "conservationists" all these fools carrying on wanting to ban spearfishing because 1 spearfisherman speared a shark which was legal to take in an are that it was legal to do so.

Many,many more sharks are killed daily by other methods and don't get this publicity.

I saw a link to Greenfins Thailand they want to stop all spearfishing claiming it kills the larger and slower fish- what a load of tripe.

Spearfishing is The Most Selective and environmentally friendly way to harvest fish. End of story.

If certain species are vulnerable to spearfishing -which is true then put bag and size limits or total bans on the taking of these species and Fine or otherwise punish those who break these rules, but not ban spearfishing.

Anyone serious about conservation of fish would ban Netting, Dynamite fishing, set line fishing, fish traps, fish pens which are not isolated from the environment and can spread desease throughout wild poplations and any other types of fishing before thinking of banning spearfishing.

I don't know where these people get their hair brained ideas from.

We get our hair-brained ideas from tireless research and a bit of common sense. I am glad you agree with the conservationists on wanting to ban those other things too.

I would like to know how any rational person can not be a conservationist. Why would you be for extinguishing species, polluting the environment etc. (I know why..money, and at times an irrational, arrogant sense of entitlement.)

This guy is catching game fish, including locally rare sharks, which only lack protection due to political apathy, and selling them for couple thousand baht. If there is a more selfish act, I am unaware of it.

BTW,dynamite fishing is banned, as is setting nets on reefs, fish traps on reefs, and commercial fishing of any kind in many parts of Thai waters. There are laws, but we need more and the ones that exist need to be better enforced.

NJ, I'm sure you understand that for all the "political apathists" out there, there are just as many conservation extremists (tree-huggers) who would advocate the death penalty for the swatting of a mosquito. (Obvious sarcasm for those that can't recognize that!)
As a (former) lifelong fisherman/hunter/outdoors-person, I'm all for conservation, clean air, healthy environment, preservation of species, etc. But extremism at either end of the argument only tends to blur the truth and serve only those that advocate one or the other side of the issue.
Commercial fishing, indiscriminate netting (as mentioned), etc is far more harmful than the occasional spearfisherman harvesting one fish. And as I understand it, this particular species is not regulated or illegal to harvest in Thailand. So technically no wrong has been done.
Common sense is needed on both sides of the argument, and unfortunately not everyone has that. I can admire your passion with this issue, but your fight is not with this one person/incident, but with making the public aware of the issue itself.
Anyhow, just my 2¢. Keep fighting the good fight.
Posted

NomadJoe

I believe some of your concerns regarding spearfishing have some merit but I believe the issues are better addressed by education and regulation to make the spearfishing sustainable than by banning spearing all together and allowing other fishing methods which are more destructive.

Here in Australia it was spearfishermen who saw some of the larger species begginning to decline and it was these spearfishermen who had the protection brought in for these species - The Blue groper is a prime example of this.

Often When I am spearing I swim past dozens and dozens of blue and brown groper, these fish are now probably more abundant than ever due to competing species and predatory sharks being a little less abundant due to all types fishing pressure, I also often see and swim past Black cod which were reduced in numbers many years ago by all types of fishing including spearing. now these black cod are getting more and more common even in areas openb to fishing and have zero pressure on them by resposible spearfishermen (though it may be possible some uneducated fool may shoot the odd one and if that were the case any responsible spearo would let him know in no uncertain terms that this is not on.)

All of my spearfishing friends are conseravtion minded and try our best to fish sustainably. we also encourage our local fisheries departments to increase size limits and reduce bag limits etc where we see the current ones are not working and happily accept practical rule changes that will see more fish available to everyone in the future, anyone would be a fool not to support this type of thing.

My only argument is with the people that want to totally ban spearfishing these people need to think a little more especially the ones who make statements that spearing is bad then buy fish from a restraunt or shop, which is more likely to have been caught by less sustainable methods.

Like I said before, my main issue is not with spearfishing, it's with general overfishing, and lack of protection of certian dwindling species and of certain areas which should have protection, and the lack of enforcement on what is legally protected. I haven't seen anyone say they want to ban spear fishing. My links were only provided due to multiple requests.

Posted
Quote from NomadJoe
"Spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear
that selectively targets larger fish relative to
other fishing gears and can significantly alter
abundance and size structure of target species
toward fewer and smaller fish"
The above statement is not only gramatically incorrect - "spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear" - should that not say Highly efficient harvesting method ?
It is also completely wrong for as many if not more species of fish than those for which it would be correct, a large number of fish are very timid and easily spooked by divers either freediving or using scuba and extre,mely difficult to approach within spearing distance especially after one has been taken from a school the rest of those fish will be nearly impossible to approach, these fish are much easier to harvest by line.

No my quote. Go yell complain about grammar at the website I found it on.

BTW, "grammatically" is spelled like this.

Posted

Joe,

Do you have some links for this "tireless research" detailing how spearfishing is not a sustainable means of catching fish? I would very much like to read up on that?

Thanks

Yes...links please.

Perhaps your research and tireless efforts would be better spent on the indigenous people in Oz that kill dugong and turtles in a very cruel way for the sake of their 'culture'....yet proceed to do so in very uncultural ways and send the meat south via modern refrigerated means to counter parts to indulge in their culture as well.

I am less concerned about the spear fishing in general than I am about the killing and selling for profit of a nearly threatened globally shark species and a possibly nearly extinct locally shark species. I agree spear fishing can be done sustainably, but I believe it usually isn't. Almost nothing in Thailand is done sustainably, especially the fishing based activities.

But here you go anyway:

"Three years after spearfishing was first allowed in the CPZ, there was a 54% reduction in density and a 27% reduction in mean size of coral trout, the primary target species. These changes were attributed to spearfishing because benthic habitat characteristics and the density of non-target fishes were stable through time, and the density and mean size of coral trout in a nearby control zone (where spearfishing was prohibited) remained unchanged. We conclude that spearfishing can have rapid and substantial negative effects on target fish populations. Careful management of spearfishing is therefore needed to ensure that conservation obligations are achieved and that fishery resources are harvested sustainably.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0051938

"Spearfishing has been implicated in local extinction of some species, including the Atlantic goliath grouper on the Caribbean island of Bonaire, the Nassau grouper in the barrier reef off the coast ofBelize, the giant black sea bass in California, and others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearfishing#cite_note-9

"Spearfishing can be very destructive. Fish wisely and avid practices that are unsustainable."

http://www.spc.int/DigitalLibrary/Doc/FAME/Brochures/Anon_12_SpearfishingGuidelines_02.pdf

Do’s and Don’t’s, according to the present legal framework

- Spearfishing is illegal

http://www.hepca.org/conservation/projects/sustainable-fishing

" I argue in this paper that recreational diving (in particular spearfishing) has had devastating effects on the fish and crayfish (southern rock lobster) populations of accessible shallow reef environments along much of the Australian coastline. Spearfishing in Australia is almost entirely recreational. The paper briefly reviews the global scientific literature on the subject, providing a backdrop against which local anecdotal information may be judged. My involvement, as a teenager, in overfishing Victorian reefs is described. Overfishing of a similar nature appears to have taken place in other Australian States where reefs are within ready access (by car or boat) from population centres of all sizes. Damage to shallow reef environments along Australia’s sparsely populated coastline seems likely to be concentrated at the more accessible or attractive sites. These impacts are significant in a national context, yet appear to have been ignored or under-estimated by both spearfishers and the government agencies"

https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onlyoneplanet.com%2FmarineSpearfishing.doc&ei=dS8jU-e-BcaQiAfF_YCYDw&usg=AFQjCNH8VZcRoN6on_cLjNc0Kj4_6oUBiQ&sig2=pQWnDnChdN6zBLi_iqITEA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.aGc

General conclusions on the matter of scuba spearfishing include: (a) for several reasons, a
complete ban of scuba spearfishing coupled with effective enforcement is the single most
important spearfishing management measure;
(cool.png spearfishing effort must be managed along with other forms of inshore fishing, since
attempts at restricting spearfishing alone are not likely to be successful as fishing effort may be
easily transferred to other small-scale fishing methods;
The notion that selectivity is “good and virtuous” arises from the assumptions that through
selectivity, (a) discards are reduced/avoided, and (cool.png species that can support fishing pressure
can be targeted. This “virtue” concept is less relevant in fisheries where there are no discards, or
where fishers are selecting for species that cannot support the pressure. The available
information indicates that, despite spearfishing gear having selective qualities, the gear is used
rather non-selectively.
Competition spear fishing affected over 30 species, among which
the most abundant were Diplodus sargus, Symphodus tinca, Labrus merula and Mugilidae. A decreasing trend over time for
the mean CPUE (kg fisherman−1 h−1) was shown. Epinephelus marginatus was a key species in the evolution of the CPUE,
since individuals weighing more than 4 kg diminished drastically after 1987. The species recorded as largest specimens clearly
changed since this date, showing a serial depletion process. These results taken as a whole describe a situation of overfishing
for some target fish inhabiting rocky bottoms between 0 and 40 m. Both recreational and competition spear fishing seem to have
had an important effect on
Overall, results highlight the pressure spearfishing exerts on the reproductive potential of fish species
in rocky habitats along the Mediterranean coast, particularly those that are vulnerable (i.e. long lived and
slow growing species with low reproductive potential) and have a higher trophic level.
Spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear
that selectively targets larger fish relative to
other fishing gears and can significantly alter
abundance and size structure of target species
toward fewer and smaller fish
These references seem to go on forever.

Is that all you've got ?

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

If the outrage is not aiming at the foreigner I suggest all these outraged should stay one day on a Thai fishing boat. coffee1.gif

A Thai expressing outrage at cp might face criminal defamation charges prior to or after family disappears

Edited by atyclb
  • Like 1
Posted

This utter nonsense just serves to highlight the shallow and trivial mentality that exists here. A guy kills a fish (shark) and the indignation goes viral. Previously a female teacher was ambushed on her motorcycle in Pattani and shot several times by two assailants who then poured petrol over her and set he on fire. Very little indignation shown for this .

Would suggest that those of you out there who jump at the chance to show their righteous indignation should get their priorities right.

  • Like 2
Posted

NomadJoe,

I appologise my blast on this issue may have seemed directed at you, but believe me it was not it was actually aimed at the writer of the article you quoted.

This article appears to be part of a Scientific study or atleast appears to be intended to seem that way.

My posts here also were not very well written for grammar and had the odd spelling mistake however they were just quick unplanned responses belted out on a website while have a beer after a swim.

If I had of been writing this as part of an official document I would have had it a lot better than it was.

Regards

Peter

Quote from NomadJoe
"Spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear
that selectively targets larger fish relative to
other fishing gears and can significantly alter
abundance and size structure of target species
toward fewer and smaller fish"
The above statement is not only gramatically incorrect - "spearfishing is a highly efficient harvesting gear" - should that not say Highly efficient harvesting method ?
It is also completely wrong for as many if not more species of fish than those for which it would be correct, a large number of fish are very timid and easily spooked by divers either freediving or using scuba and extre,mely difficult to approach within spearing distance especially after one has been taken from a school the rest of those fish will be nearly impossible to approach, these fish are much easier to harvest by line.

No my quote. Go yell complain about grammar at the website I found it on.

BTW, "grammatically" is spelled like this.

  • Like 1
Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

AFAIK there are no shark fins for sale at Makro anymore. There used to be for sure at Tesco, but already 10 years ago or so we got sales banned via Tesco headquarters.

If you do see them, make a photo and inform Makro headquarters, or somebody else who is willing to take action.

Great news about this progress. So now we only need to convince half a billion Chinese who think it is perfectly ok to slice the fins of living sharks and dump them back in the sea. Once we have changed the Chinese mindset we will be well on the way to saving the shark..... and the thais who sell shark fins to the Chinese will find something more difficult and more noble to earn a living with.

Simples....

  • Like 1
Posted

its a black tip reef shark and that is not small for the species, it is of average size and they are good eating

I don't see the 'black tip' on its tail. And mature black tip reef sharks are larger than this.

It clearly is a black tip, look at the very edge of the blood, you can see it.

Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

AFAIK there are no shark fins for sale at Makro anymore. There used to be for sure at Tesco, but already 10 years ago or so we got sales banned via Tesco headquarters.

If you do see them, make a photo and inform Makro headquarters, or somebody else who is willing to take action.

Great news about this progress. So now we only need to convince half a billion Chinese who think it is perfectly ok to slice the fins of living sharks and dump them back in the sea. Once we have changed the Chinese mindset we will be well on the way to saving the shark..... and the thais who sell shark fins to the Chinese will find something more difficult and more noble to earn a living with.

Simples....

You can be happy with action taken or moan about things that still have to improve.

Even better, but that may seem like an odd suggestion, is take action yourself.

Posted (edited)

its a black tip reef shark and that is not small for the species, it is of average size and they are good eating

I don't see the 'black tip' on its tail. And mature black tip reef sharks are larger than this.

It clearly is a black tip, look at the very edge of the blood, you can see it.

Here are the original pictures. No doubt it's a blacktip. Probably the same one divers have been seeing for 4-5 years off Kata and Karon since it was a baby. Each year it got a little bigger. This one is about the right size. Not an adult yet. The largest ones I regularly see at Phi Phi are nearly 2m. I suspect that since this person is a local expat divemaster, he knew that and has been actively hunting it for some time. He sells the meat of fish he catches for profit. Probably made 2000B or so for this shark. A sell out in the truest sense of the word.

On more than one occasion I have found spear shafts shot into coral off Kata.

1901582_606213266132200_1855910788_n.jpg

1901582_606213266132200_18559107887_n.jp

1531595_606213286132198_1524173915_n.jpg

1939960_606213282798865_429685540_n.jpg

Edited by NomadJoe
Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

AFAIK there are no shark fins for sale at Makro anymore. There used to be for sure at Tesco, but already 10 years ago or so we got sales banned via Tesco headquarters.

If you do see them, make a photo and inform Makro headquarters, or somebody else who is willing to take action.

Great news about this progress. So now we only need to convince half a billion Chinese who think it is perfectly ok to slice the fins of living sharks and dump them back in the sea. Once we have changed the Chinese mindset we will be well on the way to saving the shark..... and the thais who sell shark fins to the Chinese will find something more difficult and more noble to earn a living with.

Simples....

You can be happy with action taken or moan about things that still have to improve.

Even better, but that may seem like an odd suggestion, is take action yourself.

There are huge efforts underway in China by Chinese youth's to educate the population on how cruel and unsustainable shark fin soup is. I am confident that well within a generation the shark fin trade will be a fraction of what it is now. World wide new laws banning both the trade and consumtion of shark fin are getting enacted all time. Perhaps Phuket will be the first province to go fin free. Stay tuned.

Posted

I dont see outrage at all the sharks I see in Makro everyday...

Because Thais profit off these ones, even though they are killed by foreigners who have been bought by Thai boat owners from the Burmese slave traders.

AFAIK there are no shark fins for sale at Makro anymore. There used to be for sure at Tesco, but already 10 years ago or so we got sales banned via Tesco headquarters.

If you do see them, make a photo and inform Makro headquarters, or somebody else who is willing to take action.

Great news about this progress. So now we only need to convince half a billion Chinese who think it is perfectly ok to slice the fins of living sharks and dump them back in the sea. Once we have changed the Chinese mindset we will be well on the way to saving the shark..... and the thais who sell shark fins to the Chinese will find something more difficult and more noble to earn a living with.

Simples....

Good news, if true. Perhaps they received enough complaints to change? But really, doesn't seem all that long since I an advert from Makro, featuring shark fins on sale on the front cover. Will have to go and check out the local Makro and see what I can see. Maybe I can start shopping there again.

Now, I know there are new divers being certified every day, and that said newbies are often elevated to divemaster status by the Thai dive shop divemaster manufacturing process. It's interesting to be on a dive boat with them after they surface, and hear them report that they actually saw a fish!!!

I've been diving since about 1990, I guess. Probably the last time I went diving was on Ko Chang, a year or so back. A few small fish were seen, but not enough to write home about. Kind of the same as around Pattaya, I guess. More plastic bags down there than fish, in Pattaya anyway, and I'm just tired/bored of diving the few shipwrecks there.

Similarly with diving in the coastal Indian Ocean area. Sure, I had a few nice dives out that way back in 2001 or 2002. But these days, just not enough out there to interest me in spending so much money. I mean, once you've seen 15 Japanese divers in brand new multicolor wetsuits clinging to a rocky outcrop under water, well, you've seen it. You don't really need to see it again.

Went diving in Nha Trang in 2011, I think it was. I honestly don't think I saw a single fish on that trip. Not one. The only things I saw in the marine reserve area there were fishing boats. I was told that there used to be a one toothed moray eel swimming around there, but that it was now in a nearby aquarium.

Now, I did have some nice dives in The Philippines shortly thereafter. Not so many fish again, but some. And lots of WW II shipwrecks. I wouldn't mind doing that again.

Much, much better at Sipadan, Mabul, Kalapai -- LOTS of nice, big sharks, big barracuda, big humphead parrotfish, huge sea turtles, etc., to swim with around there, and lots of other smaller marine life as well. Seems Malaysia is serious about protecting the marine reserves around there. Kind of a chore to get to Sipadan (off the southeast corner of Borneo, more or less), but fairly certain I'll go back.

The Similan Islands, or the Indian Ocean area? Probably not again (although I haven't dived the Mergui Archipelago area yet). Just not enough out there to really interest me.

Too, I'm just less and less interested in diving these days. I mean, there were all the reports a year or so back about how the oceans would be pretty much dead by the year 2050. For the most part, that seems to have been greeted with a yawn. And fewer and fewer fish each year.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/oceans/oceans-fish-fishing-industry.htm

And yet, here's a bunch of people arguing over who should and should not kill a baby blacktip, whether it was a baby or not, in fact, whether it's against the law or not, and yada yada yada.

I guess I just don't care anymore. Hell, half the world's oceans are radioactive now anyway.

Wonder what's on the television...

Posted

Rare sharks

Pointless, irrelevant video. Those aren't black tips, the boat is chumming, and either came across a school or attracted them to the boat with chum. That's the same glib, nonsensical argument as that is used by climate change deniers because the weather's turned cold. It's called indirect logic, it has no context and no value. There are plenty of video's of schooling sharks out there. It's what they do.

Black-tips are nearly extinct locally. They used to be plentiful along the west coast and Raya Yai, Raya Noi, as the old time divers that dived here 30-40 years ago will tell you. Sharks are in sharp decline world wide, many in danger of becoming extinct. The spear hunter in the video is an acquaintance of a friend and this is how I know he sells his catch. Has been for the 3 years he has lived here. He is a divemaster (not instructor) working at a dive shop. (Illegally by the way, as he has no WP.) What is shocking is that as a dive professional he does not know better.

According to a high level source in the Phuket Marine Biological Center, fishing by foreigners is not legal full stop in Phuket waters. (This does not apply to big game fishing boats with Thai staff overseeing the foreigners.) There is no doubt that a foreigner catching and selling fish is illegal.

Let's address your video with actual facts about sharks;

"Tragically, these top predators are in grave trouble due to human activity. Heavy fishing pressure continues to threaten many shark populations."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090603052356/http://oceana.org/sharks/threats/

"Because sharks cannot breed fast like other fish, it means that their numbers can be easily be reduced by overfishing.

The growing trade in shark fins - often used to make an expensive Asian soup - has become a serious threat to many shark species. The increase of development, pollution and over-fishing have led to the loss of important marine habitats that support shark populations."

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/species/profiles/fish_marine/shark2/

"

Sharks Falling Prey To Humans' Appetites"

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0603_020603_shark1_2.html

"Fishing puts a third of all oceanic shark species at risk of extinction"

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/jun/25/sharks-extinction-iucn-red-list

  • Like 1

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