Phuket dive staff learn of ‘fine line’ between instructor and tour guide

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Phuket dive staff learn of ‘fine line’ between instructor and tour guide
Anthika Muangrod


Gov Maitri checks out the work permits at All 4 Diving.

PHUKET: -- As promised by the authorities following the scandal over officers from Chalong Police Station targeting dive companies for extortion, the first two dive companies were visited on Friday to have their work permits checked and to receive advice on what foreign employees may or may not do.

Led by Governor Maitri Inthusut the officials, who included the Head of the Phuket Employment Office (PEO), Yaowapa Piboonpon, the PEO’s academician, Orakan Thongkaew and the Phuket Director of the Tourism Authority of Thailand, Anoma Wongyai, visited All 4 Diving and Sea World Dive Team in Soi Sansabai, Patong.

One of the facts that allowed the police to arrest dive instructors and twist their arms for money was that the instructors had been seen as performing like tour guides. In particular, they had been witnessed carrying their clients’ bags.

The PEO people made it quite clear that dive instructors may go to sea to instruct people – they are not restricted to teaching only at the address in their work permits.

But their main duty is to teach people how to dive – not to carry oxygen tanks, “serve” customers, or do anything that might be construed as working as a tour guide.

Being a tour guide is one of the occupations listed in law as reserved for Thais only.

One of the dive shop employees said there had been cases of police arresting dive shop employees for carrying clients’ bags, or even their own bags. The PEO team made it quite clear that carrying customers’ bags is more like the work of a tour guide than of a diving instructor.

“Whenever you do anything that might be seen as acting as a tour guide, you make yourself a target for the police,” Miss Orakan said.

“As a dive instructor, you can carry your own bag, oxygen tank, mask and everything because that’s part of your duties.

“But if the bags [or equipment] belong to your customers, and you carry them and serve the customers that way, then that’s wrong because you are regarded as acting as a tour guide, a reserved profession.

“Before the police catch someone, they watch that person for a long while, not just one day. The problem is that the line between being a dive instructor and a tour guide is a very fine one.”

The good news was that it was made clear that whatever the official working address of a dive instructor, in the work permit, he or she may work anywhere in Phuket’s waters.

Ms Orakan said that there will be no change in the work permit definition of “dive instructor” but nine months ago the PEO started adding, in the job description, a specific prohibition against working as tour guides.

“There will be no change in the work permit. What we have in it now is the best, and covers everything,” she added.

Gov Maitri said he plans to call a meeting after Songkran, bringing together the PEO, the police and dive companies, so that everyone has the same understanding of the law.

Source: http://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-dive-staff-learn-of-%E2%80%98fine-line%E2%80%99-between-instructor-and-tour-guide-45590.php


-- Phuket News 2014-04-08

[clockman]

So instead of punishing criminal police, Just smoke and mirrors.

[Jimi007]

It appears that customer service is against the law… Unbelievable.

[Thai at Heart]

A tour guide carries luggage? Isn't that the job of a stevedore? Or bagman.

I don't see tour guides in bangkok loading luggage.

[SeanPhuket]

No need to worry people. It will all have blown over in a month or two. Just play by the rules for a little bit. (look on the bright side; no more lugging about equipment!).

[stevenl]

It appears that customer service is against the law… Unbelievable.

Why? Plenty of Thai staff around to carry the dive gear, there really is no need for the guest or the instructor to do that.

[canopus1969]

But their main duty is to teach people how to dive – not to carry oxygen tanks

Oh dear, I have obviously been using the wrong tanks when I go diving

[Mrjlh]

Just make sure the instructors "teach" the customer the correct safe way in carrying the equipment so there isn't sudden accident, if you know what I'm talking about, before you go to the boat.

[Jimi007]

It appears that customer service is against the law… Unbelievable.

Why? Plenty of Thai staff around to carry the dive gear, there really is no need for the guest or the instructor to do that.

Yes, I'm sure there are. But I guess if I help someone with their bag I could be a tour guide? Really? Come on… But of course, I don't have a work permit and I wouldn't want to have one as I have no interest in working in Thailand. I just think the line they are drawing is a bit thin as the title of the article implied.

[Guest]

So, is being a divemaster illegal in Thailand? After all it's guiding the clients to the dive sites and not teaching per se.

How about tourists doing their dive courses? Should they also have student visas to do the courses?

[Scully]

Before the police catch someone, they watch that person for a long while, not just one day. The problem is that the line between being a dive instructor and a tour guide is a very fine one.

Very fine indeed, much like a coal miner and an insurance salesman.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

The sharks in Phuket are now feeding on themselves.

All of the quality tourists(victims) have now left, leaving only Russians, Indians, Arabs and Morrocans.

The profits from extortion have dropped significantly, but they still have to meet the monthly payments on their Fortuners and their giks.

The pier at Chalong is one of the last remaining tea money streams available...and so extortion will increase...not decrease...moving forward.

Eventually all of the dive operations will relocate to Myanmar.

[Evilbaz]

And are the dive operators getting their 20,000 baht "illegal fines" back? - yeah, right!

[stevenl]

So, is being a divemaster illegal in Thailand? After all it's guiding the clients to the dive sites and not teaching per se.

How about tourists doing their dive courses? Should they also have student visas to do the courses?

Yes, a foreigner can not get a workpermit as a divemaster in Thailand. So any foreigner acting as divemaster is working illegally.

[Guest]

So, is being a divemaster illegal in Thailand? After all it's guiding the clients to the dive sites and not teaching per se.

How about tourists doing their dive courses? Should they also have student visas to do the courses?

Yes, a foreigner can not get a workpermit as a divemaster in Thailand. So any foreigner acting as divemaster is working illegally.

Thanks for the info.

I guess it also means that all, not teaching/course related dives must be lead by Thais as it would be illegal for an instructor to lead recreational dives.

I suppose there are not many dive centers which do things really by the book. Which on the other hand leaves the door open for further "open fines".

[stevenl]

So, is being a divemaster illegal in Thailand? After all it's guiding the clients to the dive sites and not teaching per se.

How about tourists doing their dive courses? Should they also have student visas to do the courses?

Yes, a foreigner can not get a workpermit as a divemaster in Thailand. So any foreigner acting as divemaster is working illegally.

Thanks for the info.

I guess it also means that all, not teaching/course related dives must be lead by Thais as it would be illegal for an instructor to lead recreational dives.

I suppose there are not many dive centers which do things really by the book. Which on the other hand leaves the door open for further "open fines".

Yes, so DC's have to make sure the foreign instructors working for them are teaching and not guiding.

Edited April 8, 2014 by stevenl

[Guest]

Yes, so DC's have to make sure the foreign instructors working for them are teaching and not guiding.

Therefore if I would book a trip to the Similans, I would not make an agreement of diving. I would make an marine speciality or wreck diving course contract with the DC in case there is foreign people leading the dives? PADI should be very happy for the increased certification fees.

The other option I guess is to use divemaster students to lead the dives, while an instructor is teaching the DM student and watching his progress?

There might be loopholes which allow foreign instructors to lead the dives, but still the law is not very practical.

[thepool]

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Yes, so DC's have to make sure the foreign instructors working for them are teaching and not guiding.

Therefore if I would book a trip to the Similans, I would not make an agreement of diving. I would make an marine speciality or wreck diving course contract with the DC in case there is foreign people leading the dives? PADI should be very happy for the increased certification fees.

The other option I guess is to use divemaster students to lead the dives, while an instructor is teaching the DM student and watching his progress?

There might be loopholes which allow foreign instructors to lead the dives, but still the law is not very practical.

Your right!

The "dive industry" could teach the Thais a lot about the art of scamming/ lying/cheating !

[Guest]

Your right!

The "dive industry" could teach the Thais a lot about the art of scamming/ lying/cheating !

I have nothing against the dive industry. Personally I think to work in the diving is one of the best ways to live the dream. Great for the experience.

I'm against the law (and many other laws in general), which can be bent to serve only those who have the knowhow and many times connections.

The unclear laws are the source of corruption as they give an possibility for the "authorities" to interpret the law as they wish.

[FireMedic]

It keeps getting better and better. Will someone just tell them how ridiculous they make themselves look? Again, more weak, limp wristed journalism here in Phuket. A huge opportunity to jump all over corruption questions and they let it go......

[DiamondKing]

So they are making people dive with Qxygen tanks LOL so we should have a few thousand tourist divers poisened by diving with oxygen tanks another writes that has no clue what they are writing about

[Som wat]

Being a tour guide is one of the occupations listed in law as reserved for Thais only.

Imagine Thailand with legally employed Western tour guides.

Russian tour guides.

Chinese tour guides.

Korean tour guides.

Japanese tour guides.

Imagine the extra tourist income for the country.

But no, it would just eat them up to not protect the Thais that try and fail to do these things.

Anyway, as long as the foreign dive instructors do not carry oxygen tanks or talk about any local attractions in this World Class Tourist Destination it's all good, isn't it.

[Shot]

"But their main duty is to teach people how to dive – not to carry oxygen tanks, “serve” customers, or do anything that might be construed as working as a tour guide."

Loophole: You can not carry their "oxygen" tank.

Can you carry their air tank?

[theorange]

They say down beforehand and said to themselves 'We need to come up with some (lame) excuse to get the BIB off the hook, and so we don't have to give any money back and avoid any legal cases arising. Anyone got any ideas?'

Honestly, how can you consider carrying dive equipment the same as acting as a Tour Guide. There is no connection there at all.

“But if the bags [or equipment] belong to your customers, and you carry them and serve the customers that way, then that’s wrong because you are regarded as acting as a tour guide, a reserved profession."

How many people come on holiday to Phuket with their own dive equipment. Almost none I would imagine. So if the dive staff carry the equipment that the customer will be using, but that equipment belongs to the dive company, it that still wrong?

What are the chances of any of the dive staff getting their money back?

[khaowong1]

"carrying their clients’ bags" So common courtesy is outlawed in Thailand? Next, the customer won't be allowed to carry his or her own bags, right? Have to hire Somchai...

[Andre0720]

“Whenever you do anything that might be seen as acting as a tour guide, you make yourself a target for the police,” Miss Orakan said.''

Well, how about:

“Whenever you do anything that might be seen as acting in a way dangerous to others, you make yourself a target for the police,”

In a way dangerous to others, such as:

Driving at high speed on busy roads

Stopping in the middle of a road to go get a coffee

Making a U-Turn on a busy road

Driving while texting or talking on a phone

Going through red lights

Driving while under the influence

And for these dangerous behaviours, no need for extended observations as it is the case for these 'law-breaking divers', as stated above:

“Before the police catch someone, they watch that person for a long while, not just one day.

They spend lots of police time on that !!!!!!!!!

How can anyone say such a thing with a straight face???

[tingtongteesood]

What a bunch of idiots ! Can't even carry your own bag ! Tour guides do not carry bags, that is not what a tour guide does....

[SOTIRIOS]

...isn't it the job of the respective ministries to apply the law as it is written in the first place......???

....people go through the motions in good faith.....they are misinformed...or misdirected....then blamed......even charged for crimes....

[thepool]

All these "wonderful" law abiding dive shop people could have insisted on being put before a court where they could have proved themselves not to be in violation of the law.

Instead they attempted to "buy" their way out of trouble ?

I wonder why ?

[stickylies]

probably the most BORING topic ever read on TV. anybody long enough in thailand doesn't take all this UTTER CRAP seriously. file under:

yeah yeah, sure sure, blah blah, and the weather was fine.