Pragmatic solutions in uncertain times.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

I am one of these independently weathly under 50 individuals and I am currently on a tourist visa.

There was a flood of posting on the crackdown over the last week, however I deliberately avoided wasting any energy adding to the often erroneous and misinformed debate.

Instead, I focused upon implementing pragmatic solutions to manage the risks that are now attached to the tourist visa. I became independantly wealthy by doing just that- focusing on solutions, not the problem.

The problem, or primary risk, as I now see it, is that one can be blocked from entering Thailand merely because an immigration officer "suspects" you have been working. So regardless of the fact that I do not work here, nor do anything untoward, access to my two properties, bank accounts, investments, and personal possessions may all be lost because some officer on a border somewhere, or at an airport, "suspects" that I am working.

And so on to the point of this thread. Rather wasting our energy going round and round discussing the crackdown, let us instead focus on listing some practical solutions.

Here are some of mine:

1. I have over the last week transferred several million baht out of my Thai bank accounts.
2. I have puchased 2KUSD worth of American express travelers cheques. There is no way I am showing any immigration officer 20KTHB in CASH. He can view and play with my travelers cheques as much as he wants.
3. I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run. But...I am unsure whether showing that I have two properties wins any points with immigration? Or will it spur them to make accusations of running a business, which I am not? A good topic for debate in itself because lots of my oil and gas friends also have high value properties here and some of them have been using visa exemptions for over a decade.
4. I will be also be taking (some) of my Thai bank books with me next time I do a visa run.

So what pratical solutions will you use to manage the risk that flows from the tourist visa crack down the fact that an officer can now deport you and blacklist you on nothing more than his suspicion that you are working?

[simon43]

Good topic and good ideas.

I'm due to fly to Penang in a few weeks to get a 90-day ED visa (to study conversational Mandarin). During that time, my lawyer will complete the registration of a Thai company, get all WP docs ready and then I'll fly again to Penang to obtain a non-imm B visa.

But for my next flight out (and back), I'm taking:

- Copies of my marriage/divorce certificates with my Thai ex's

- My bank book to show a decent balance

- Copy of my Thai son's birth certificate

- A copy of a hotel reservation made on Booking.com for 90 days (this is a sneaky one. I actually make a booking at my ex's hotel which accepts bookings without show of a credit-card. So I can easily cancel the booking without cost and if people check up where I am staying, then they will find me at the hotel - but staying free....)

Am I paranoid??

[Loaded]

If you do this,

"I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run. But...I am unsure whether showing that I have two properties wins any points with immigration? Or will it spur them to make accusations of running a business, which I am not? A good topic for debate in itself because lots of my oil and gas friends also have high value properties here and some of them have been using visa exemptions for over a decade."

won't you be confirming you are not a tourist?

Immigration may think therefore you should not be using tourist visas nor visa exemptions

[CWMcMurray]

In your situation, as you have 2 properties and have (or had) several million baht in accounts in Thailand ...

Would it not be better in the long run to just get a 1 yr extension based upon investment ?

Understand that 10 million in investment , which can also be real estate will qualify.

So this may be the lowest risk option for your situation

More info on investment extension...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/659800-investment-visa/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 19, 2014 by CWMcMurray

[infinity11]

What is the current history of those denied entry or re-entry?

What are the reasons?

Or this is information not available?

[Cam Khao]

I fly into BKK at the end of June, on a triple entry tourist visa issued in the UK, after spending 6 months working a contract in Zurich.

I will be flying to Hong Khong for work around two months after this, and then heading back to Thailand for a further vacation until I head back to Europe towards the end of the year for more work.

Here is what I am going to bring with me when I fly in.

20k in cash (may well switch that to travelers cheques after reading the OP idea).

A copy of my half Thai Sons birth certificate showing my name.

Prints of the balances of my bank accounts in Thailand, UK and Hong Khong.

Proof of onward travel (flight ticket).

It will be interesting to see what happens.I have spent most of the last 8 years in Thailand, on a variety of visas including non-imm B, non-imm O, tourist visas and visa exempt stamps.

If they give me the slightest trouble, I'll simply move on. Cambodia is looking interesting, and my Son can come and visit me there.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Cam Khao

[brit1984]

elite card?

[Zumteufel]

I don't understand the issues here. I you guys plan to stay here for an extended period of time, get a suitable visum (ie. not a tourist one). There's lots of options.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Zumteufel

[cronus]

The 5 year elite card might be an option.... I would consider showing them bank balance sheets of Non Thai account with a massive amount of cash in it to reduce the suspicion of working...

[marioc]

In your situation, as you have 2 properties and have (or had) several million baht in accounts in Thailand ...

Would it not be better in the long run to just get a 1 yr extension based upon investment ?

Understand that 10 million in investment , which can also be real estate will qualify.

So this may be the lowest risk option for your situation

More info on investment extension...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/659800-investment-visa/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it really sure about "....2 properties...several million baht....under 50.....travelers cheques....(some)Thai bank books....."

Someone rich and smart enough to be in that position, wouldn't need to do any visa runs, neither your wise advise McMurray.

[cronus]

I don't understand the issues here. I you guys plan to stay here for an extended period of time, get a suitable visum (ie. not a tourist one). There's lots of options.

No there's not. Not married-under 50-not working-done the education visa already for 3 years.

[Cam Khao]

I don't understand the issues here. I you guys plan to stay here for an extended period of time, get a suitable visum (ie. not a tourist one). There's lots of options.

Please explain to me which is the right visa then?

I am coming to Thailand for a 2 month vacation, I am then heading off to work for a month or so in Hong Khong, I will then head back to Thailand for a few more months of vacation, before heading back to Europe for several months of work.

So, I will be entering Thailand several times for vacation purposes, within the next few months. Hence I believe a multiple entry tourist visa is right for me. Do you disagree?

[CharlieH]

Here we have yet another try at "how can we get around" "wheres the loop hole" whos got the smartest ars*!

Just get the appropriate and legal visa option for your legitimate circumstance/ classification and there is nothing more to say is there.

No need for what ifs, or clever manoeveting is there, its quite simple really, why try to make a song and dance of it.

Edited May 19, 2014 by CharlieH

[arminbkk]

_{It is completely left to the discretion of the immigration official. Who knows what the official will do or think? He/she could be thinking it is commendable that you prepared yourself so well and stamp you through…….or…..he/she could be thinking you are a smart@ss for bringing much paperwork with you and deny you entry just to show you who’s boss.}

_{The point of the crackdown is to put a stop to people making many consecutive border runs to obtain 15-30 day Visa On Arrival, VOAs, or exempt visas, which are tourist visas. The crackdown puts a limit at 3 consecutive entries. They suspect that people that in fact are doing more such “out-in” runs, are actually not tourists but might be working or living in Thailand illegally. Such people will be denied entry. They will make exceptions for people that can show they are in fact tourists by presenting detailed itineraries and hotel bookings and outbound flight.}

_{Showing them copies of property leases, Thai bank books, Thai bank statements etc, when you want to get a VOA stamp in your passport, does not exactly proof you are a genuine tourist, does it. Or at least it does not proof beyond doubt that you are not working in Thailand.}

_{Basically, they want to reserve the VOAs for short-term tourists. Tourists.}

_{From an TV thread yesterday:}

_{Thai Immigration: Border insecurity mounts as tourist visa abuse is targeted}

_{“Immigration officials have long expressed concerns that the visa runs are being abused by foreigners who are working illegally in Thailand as language teachers, restaurant owners and staff, real estate agents and tour guides. Immigration Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Pharnu Kerdlarpphon told Spectrum that if foreigners wanted to retire, work or do business in Thailand they had to apply for the correct type of visa and not exploit those (visas) designated for tourists.”}

_{OP is not a short-term tourist.}

_{OP is: “one of these independently weathly under 50 individuals and I am currently on a tourist visa”.}

_{As for pragmatic solutions, I can’t think of any. Since it is at the discretion of the immigration officer, make sure the officer likes you, so be polite, dress well, smile, wai etc. A solution could be to qualify oneself for one of the other visa types: get married to a Thai national, enroll in a Thai language course, invest in property, or get a job despite being independently wealthy.}

[fatdrunkandstupid]

In your situation, as you have 2 properties and have (or had) several million baht in accounts in Thailand ...

Would it not be better in the long run to just get a 1 yr extension based upon investment ?

Understand that 10 million in investment , which can also be real estate will qualify.

So this may be the lowest risk option for your situation

More info on investment extension...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/659800-investment-visa/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My first visa was a 12 month multi entry B visa. It was granted to enable me to look for investment opportunities in Thailand. As part of my application I submitted a letter from my chartered accountant confirming that I had 500KUSD cash in at call bank accounts. After doing due dilligence for three years I have not found a single investment where in my assessment the pontential return (yield and/or capital growth) offset the manifest domestic risks such as corruption and political instability. I do however hold large short term positions on the SET from time to time. Moving forward I see nothing that may diminish the aforementioned risks. In fact they would now appear to be increasing exponentially. The tourist visa crackdown is another example with this nebulous "suspect" someone might be working statement by immigration and the subsequent threat to blacklist forever.

So no thankyou. No 10 million investment visa for me.

As with Simon43, I am shortly due for a border run. I will be monitoring the situation closely. Should I encounter any unjustified mistreatment by immigration whatsoever, I intend to transfer several more million baht out of the country and to also sell my hard assets.

I will move on to either Cambodia or Indonesia. As I posted in another thread, they have just introduced a 25 year visa for anyone who marries an Indonesian citizen. Those married to a Thai can only dream of such a luxury.

Oh. I should also mention another of my practical solutions. I sold one of my big bikes. I still have four others and a couple of trucks. I may sell them also depending on what transpires during my next border run. No...I don't view vehicles as assets, but rather as liabilities, but go figure, I had my bike for two years and made 10KTHB more than what I paid for it.

In my humble opinion Farangs here should watch very closely the way the Vietnamese have just turned on the Chinese living there. I was in Indonesia back in the early 90s and I saw exactly the same thing happen there. Mobs of locals running through the villages smashing up and stealing from the Chinese merhchants and gold shops.

Think of Thailand as a bus. No one is driving that bus at the moment. It is sailing down the highway at top speed. With no one at the wheel. When the crash inevitably comes, someone may stand up and blame the Farangs for the carnage. It is happening now in Vietnam. It has already happened in Indonesia. Don't for a second think it can not happen here. And if it does, it will happend very swiftly.

I do not wear a tinfoil hat, but, as my OP suggests, I am rather pragmatic. If Thailand wants to increase the risk to my assets by not providing clear rules, and consistent and reliable application of those rules, then I am left with little choice than to remove my assets from exposure to that risk. And if things really fall apart...I will also remove myself.

[impulse]

I guess we have different definitions of “pragmatic”.

Every step the OP is recommending is still living within ever tightening loopholes.

Pragmatic is to suck it up and invest what has to be invested to get 100% legal.

If the return on the legal investment is too low relative to other options, pragmatic is some soul searching to figure out what it’s worth to stay in Thailand. Then take appropriate action.

If it’s not economically possible, pragmatic is selling non-portable Thai assets to get ready for the day the loophole is no longer big enough to live in. Rent until that day.

Pragmatic is making arrangements for someone to look after your stuff for awhile until you can make permanent arrangements if you get turned away at the border next trip.

Pragmatic is figuring out where you’re going if and when the day comes you can’t stay here within your means- and prepping for that transition day.

Everything else is wishful thinking. I hope it all works out, but...

[jethro69]

Here we have yet another try at "how can we get around" "wheres the loop hole" whos got the smartest ars*!

Just get the appropriate and legal visa option for your legitimate circumstance/ classification and there is nothing more to say is there.

No need for what ifs, or clever manoeveting is there, its quite simple really, why try to make a song and dance of it.

For that you'll need a WP, but not quite sure which one??? Singer or Dancer?

[hobz]

I think the most practical and pragmatic solution is to buy alot of tickets to different surrounding countries,, buy tickets to phillipines, cambodia, myanmar whatever, make hotel reservations in thailand and in other countries,, show these to immigration when asked what you will do in thailand,, also have the 20k for display..

best to make reservations / tickets that can be cancelled, or that can be on hold until paid, .. just to show them something,, ofcourse if you can afford throwing away money it would be best to pay ..

[fatdrunkandstupid]

I guess we have different definitions of “pragmatic”.

Every step the OP is recommending is still living within ever tightening loopholes.

Pragmatic is to suck it up and invest what has to be invested to get 100% legal.

If the return on the legal investment is too low relative to other options, pragmatic is some soul searching to figure out what it’s worth to stay in Thailand. Then take appropriate action.

If it’s not economically possible, pragmatic is selling non-portable Thai assets to get ready for the day the loophole is no longer big enough to live in. Rent until that day.

Pragmatic is making arrangements for someone to look after your stuff for awhile until you can make permanent arrangements if you get turned away at the border next trip.

Pragmatic is figuring out where you’re going if and when the day comes you can’t stay here within your means- and prepping for that transition day.

Everything else is wishful thinking. I hope it all works out, but...

Tell me just why you think I am not 100% legal. And be careful, very careful, what you say.

[Suradit69]

I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run.

A good topic for debate in itself ...

Yes, owning property and having scads of money in bank accounts in Thailand to prove you're a tourist.

You may be independently wealthy, but if you think you're being pragmatic you need to buy a better dictionary.

[marko kok prong]

In your situation, as you have 2 properties and have (or had) several million baht in accounts in Thailand ...

Would it not be better in the long run to just get a 1 yr extension based upon investment ?

Understand that 10 million in investment , which can also be real estate will qualify.

So this may be the lowest risk option for your situation

More info on investment extension...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/659800-investment-visa/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My first visa was a 12 month multi entry B visa. It was granted to enable me to look for investment opportunities in Thailand. As part of my application I submitted a letter from my chartered accountant confirming that I had 500KUSD cash in at call bank accounts. After doing due dilligence for three years I have not found a single investment where in my assessment the pontential return (yield and/or capital growth) offset the manifest domestic risks such as corruption and political instability. I do however hold large short term positions on the SET from time to time. Moving forward I see nothing that may diminish the aforementioned risks. In fact they would now appear to be increasing exponentially. The tourist visa crackdown is another example with this nebulous "suspect" someone might be working statement by immigration and the subsequent threat to blacklist forever.

So no thankyou. No 10 million investment visa for me.

As with Simon43, I am shortly due for a border run. I will be monitoring the situation closely. Should I encounter any unjustified mistreatment by immigration whatsoever, I intend to transfer several more million baht out of the country and to also sell my hard assets.

I will move on to either Cambodia or Indonesia. As I posted in another thread, they have just introduced a 25 year visa for anyone who marries an Indonesian citizen. Those married to a Thai can only dream of such a luxury.

Oh. I should also mention another of my practical solutions. I sold one of my big bikes. I still have four others and a couple of trucks. I may sell them also depending on what transpires during my next border run. No...I don't view vehicles as assets, but rather as liabilities, but go figure, I had my bike for two years and made 10KTHB more than what I paid for it.

In my humble opinion Farangs here should watch very closely the way the Vietnamese have just turned on the Chinese living there. I was in Indonesia back in the early 90s and I saw exactly the same thing happen there. Mobs of locals running through the villages smashing up and stealing from the Chinese merhchants and gold shops.

Think of Thailand as a bus. No one is driving that bus at the moment. It is sailing down the highway at top speed. With no one at the wheel. When the crash inevitably comes, someone may stand up and blame the Farangs for the carnage. It is happening now in Vietnam. It has already happened in Indonesia. Don't for a second think it can not happen here. And if it does, it will happend very swiftly.

I do not wear a tinfoil hat, but, as my OP suggests, I am rather pragmatic. If Thailand wants to increase the risk to my assets by not providing clear rules, and consistent and reliable application of those rules, then I am left with little choice than to remove my assets from exposure to that risk. And if things really fall apart...I will also remove myself.

Op,i think you are drawing a rather long bow here,think of the hundreds of thousands of falangs that reside in this country,and contribute to it's gdp,not to mention tourist's, i cannot see a day when they will be stringing us up from lampost's,and as for your problems,why did you not think this through before,i came here on a 1 year b visa too,but before it ran out i got married,so now on a thai wife visa,as i see it you have 3 options,1 go back home and get another b visa, 2 try the elite card,i read recently it was 500,000 b,or 3 get married,by the way i am not having a go here as i generally enjoy your post's i just don't understand why you have let it get to this stage,it seem's an awful lot of upheaval for you to move to another country.

[Berkshire]

I will move on to either Cambodia or Indonesia. As I posted in another thread, they have just introduced a 25 year visa for anyone who marries an Indonesian citizen. Those married to a Thai can only dream of such a luxury.

Why wait for the Christmas rush? Do it now. Go to Cambodia or Indonesia. I doubt anyone in Thailand will shed a tear. Just do it.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

Simon43 and Hobz have alluded to hotel bookings. However, with respect to Simon, isn't that a Red Herring. If this is part of the enforcement then there are a large number of businesses here in Thailand that will collapse. Their model is to find long term tenants for villas and other high end properties. In fact, many (perhaps even the bulk) of these property owners will not even consider anything shorter than a six month lease. Many want a minimum of twelve months. The economic ramifications of this crackdown for Thailand are huge. Watch this space...

[kjhbigv]

If you do this,

"I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run. But...I am unsure whether showing that I have two properties wins any points with immigration? Or will it spur them to make accusations of running a business, which I am not? A good topic for debate in itself because lots of my oil and gas friends also have high value properties here and some of them have been using visa exemptions for over a decade."

won't you be confirming you are not a tourist?

Immigration may think therefore you should not be using tourist visas nor visa exemptions

I agree. I am having my tenancy changed into my girlfriends name for my next "visa run".

I will also ensure I have 25k in my pocket.

I will also take a printout of my return flight booking in December.

Will also take Thai Bank account books showing plenty of cash to support myself.

After this run, I am going to get married as the girlfriend is 5 months pregnant and have talking about it for ages so makes sense, especially in view of a baby on the way.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[marko kok prong]

If you do this,

"I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run. But...I am unsure whether showing that I have two properties wins any points with immigration? Or will it spur them to make accusations of running a business, which I am not? A good topic for debate in itself because lots of my oil and gas friends also have high value properties here and some of them have been using visa exemptions for over a decade."

won't you be confirming you are not a tourist?

Immigration may think therefore you should not be using tourist visas nor visa exemptions

I agree. I am having my tenancy changed into my girlfriends name for my next "visa run".

I will also ensure I have 25k in my pocket.

I will also take a printout of my return flight booking in December.

Will also take Thai Bank account books showing plenty of cash to support myself.

After this run, I am going to get married as the girlfriend is 5 months pregnant and have talking about it for ages so makes sense, especially in view of a baby on the way.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

A good idea,many people complain the marriage visa is more complicated than a retirement,but hell all you have to do is take some photos of you together,and draw a map of where you live,on top of the financial stuff and copy of marriage cert,we where out of Phitsanoluk in about an hour this year,but it is a very good and not too busy office,staff are friendly,and want to help,also you have to show only 400,000b in bank ,not 800,000.

[ATF]

Look Clownhead it's against the rules of the forum to spread rumors. I have lived through many Military Coups. Bloodless and otherwise. Everything goes back to normal after a while. If you're really afraid go somewhere else. Stop scaremongering. Eventually the dumb peasants will realize they have been lied to and they aren't going to get their rice money. Maybe then they will stop believing the Taksin Regime.

As far as you are concerned it's obvious you inherited your wealth and haven't got a clue how to handle it. You can't even arrange an appropriate visa for yourself. Which is totally comical. This has to be a Troll post no one could be this stupid.

[monkeycountry]

I checked the "investment visa" links mentioned above, but they refer to investments in fixed deposit accounts, government bonds, condos etc. Does anyone know if investing 10+ million on the SET will do the trick? (I am not interested in anyone's opinion reg. whether it is a good/risky investment or not, only if it is a legal option to get a visa / extension) Thanks in advance.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

If you do this,

"I have made copies of the leases on both of my properties. I will be taking them with me next time I do a visa run. But...I am unsure whether showing that I have two properties wins any points with immigration? Or will it spur them to make accusations of running a business, which I am not? A good topic for debate in itself because lots of my oil and gas friends also have high value properties here and some of them have been using visa exemptions for over a decade."

won't you be confirming you are not a tourist?

Immigration may think therefore you should not be using tourist visas nor visa exemptions

I agree. I am having my tenancy changed into my girlfriends name for my next "visa run".

I will also ensure I have 25k in my pocket.

I will also take a printout of my return flight booking in December.

Will also take Thai Bank account books showing plenty of cash to support myself.

After this run, I am going to get married as the girlfriend is 5 months pregnant and have talking about it for ages so makes sense, especially in view of a baby on the way.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

A good idea,many people complain the marriage visa is more complicated than a retirement,but hell all you have to do is take some photos of you together,and draw a map of where you live,on top of the financial stuff and copy of marriage cert,we where out of Phitsanoluk in about an hour this year,but it is a very good and not too busy office,staff are friendly,and want to help,also you have to show only 400,000b in bank ,not 800,000.

Yep. It is swimmingly easy to get married. The hard part is to get unmarried.

I will never marry for a visa. I may however give due consideration to move to a country like Indonesia that offers a 25 year visa if I do decide to marry one of its citizens.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

I checked the "investment visa" links mentioned above, but they refer to investments in fixed deposit accounts, government bonds, condos etc. Does anyone know if investing 10+ million on the SET will do the trick? (I am not interested in anyone's opinion reg. whether it is a good/risky investment or not, only if it is a legal option to get a visa / extension) Thanks in advance.

No it doesn't qualify. You can however, manage investments in the SET without a WP. At least that is what an immigration official stated publicly last year to the Phuket Gazette.

[jethro69]

I don't understand the issues here. I you guys plan to stay here for an extended period of time, get a suitable visum (ie. not a tourist one). There's lots of options.

No there's not. Not married-under 50-not working-done the education visa already for 3 years.

Another 3 years, but another language?? Possible??