Confirmed: Visa run crackdown effective from August 12, 2014: Thai Foreign Ministry

[cup-O-coffee]

Simply some thoughts on my part. Opinions, if you will, as well.

Figuratively speaking, of course...

There is no law here, so to speak. There is moreover only a mood. The law seems to only be written to be there as a means and resource to justify the mood. No matter where the mood strikes or falls on any given day or at any given moment, this law can be used as a resource to justify the mood.

I have read somewhere by attorneys even, that the law is intentionally written to be vague and ambiguous so as not to put any authority into a corner and hence lose face. The law is written so as to allow any authority to use it as an ingredient to form and solidify their mood or whim. Once achieved, no one can argue with that mood or whim on the basis of how one in power interpreted it for that unique issue or event ...simply because the law as it stands is unformed and unsolidified (like wet concrete), and needs an authority to grab it and form and solidify it to one's needs.

Once one understands the moods of people, and what major factors sway the moods of people, then one can improve their abilities to crystal ball.

If one really wants to crystal ball and improve their odds at predicting, then one only needs to view a possible scenario (or an OP) and ask, "Where's the money? What will happen to the money? How much money is involved?"

If no money is involved, then the process is expendable and an easy target for cracking down on. If the process has a lot of money involved and a lot of fingers in the pie, and cracking down would cause severe ramifications, then it is logical to crystal ball that any mention of killing the process is nothing more than threat and boast.

----

Sometimes the tree needs to be pruned a bit. A new gardener comes in and prunes off the sucker branches to his liking, but keeps the fruit bearing branches.

The visa industry is huge. It involves many many entities both known and unknown. A lot of these entities are like fruit trees. Some bear fruit and others don't.

I have never known a native, imbued with power and authority, to commit financial suicide and prune off the fruit bearing branches, and the visa industry is no exception. Extending visa exemptions is like a sucker branch. Most all other forms of visas are extremely fruit bearing.

When the new gardener comes into the garden and views all the fruit trees, he is more than likely going to exercise his right to show his power and make it known (muse out loud to make knees tremble) that he may or may not prune all the fruit trees right down to the trunk, and ignore the consequences. However, I have found that a lot of this is simply a way of showing power and boasting at what one could do, but more than likely would not do.

Every gardener needs something to grow and eventually reap. If everything is pruned back to the stalk, trunk and sod, then the gardener is out of a job because he has no fruit and no one to be there to tremble when he speaks.

The visa industry is too lucrative to apply the logic of the OP. The only other option is to commit suicide and go with the ASEAN visa and let foreigners come into Thailand with a dirt cheap visa from Laos or Cambodia, and then the gardener is out of a job for sure.

As I suggested at the beginning of my post, the mood is supported by the law, and what affects the mood is money: large amounts of money, or the lack thereof ...Money, or the lack thereof... that is the chief indicator for where the mood will fall. If the mood is in opposition to large amounts of money, it is more than likely a boast, or an interruption to the status quo and likely to be resumed once a few sucker branches are pruned and a few knees made to tremble.

These are simply some thoughts I have on this topic. In summary, the these people will not cut off a fruit bearing limb. At the worst they will replace it. Additionally, there are too many businesses who have their livelihoods wrapped up in this cottage industry. The insane logic of the OP strongly suggests to me that this is nothing more than a shakedown by the new gardener, and an announcement to those who have fruit trees that the master gardener is coming around for inspection and is posing utterly mad possibilities in advance of this auspicious event. Knees will tremble, but the fruit bearing limbs will still be permitted to bear fruit for the harvested.

Well... that's it. Those are my opinions and views.

Since this was announced long before the new gardner arrived your story makes no sense.

Respectfully, if it makes no sense, then it makes no sense. Otherwise, you are using my senseless story in order to appear to be making sense. That is a paradox. Just say it makes no sense and leave it at that.

This is merely a template. It can be applied to practically any scenario. Money is key. All else falls into place with proportion to the amount of it or lack thereof. I doubt that the OP is an idealist/crusader who doesn't care about money. If so, then you all truly have a lot to fear. But I truly believe that the OP is posing as an idealist/crusader, yet at heart is a realist/capitalist, and loves money very much.

[evadgib]

A solution might be to;

a) Increase the length of validity from 30 to 90 days for all new arrivals (predominantly holidaymakers but would include those that are married & working abroad). They could charge for this if necessary or dangle a carrot by making them cheaper (or free) to anyone who applies before travelling via the appropriate authorities (usually the RT Embassy) in their homeland.

b ) Encourage the remainder to apply for any of the current categories of visa/extension via existing routes.

The above might solve the problem while making the roads a little safer at the same time.

Just my 2p.

Edited July 1, 2014 by evadgib

[dcpo]

Is it possible to get a work permit for an online business?

Sure, you just have to meet the requirements for both business startup and workpermit application.

Exactly, by which point you're not running your own 'online business' since you must have Thai partners (exception for Americans), an office and full time Thai staff.

Yes, of course there are criteria. Don't meet them, you're illegal, same now, same last year.

Right, so there is no way for a lot of people to do what they currently do legally, which was my point. We can all agree that people currently working here illegally could in theory work here legally if they did something else. The problem for Thailand is that a lot of people currently working here illegally are not engaged in criminal activity (aside from working illegally), or undermining the Thai workforce, but are actually filling gaps in the economy. Before Thailand cracks down on visa abuse they should make sure that their legal visa framework can support the work that they want doing. Or not, I suppose. It's their economy. They can screw it up if they want. Edited July 1, 2014 by dcpo

[SanukJoeII]

The letter refers to the "visa exemption scheme". This is not the same as possessing a tourist visa, so it would appear not refer to tourist visas or multiple entry tourist visas.

Thai Embassies and Consulates now has been instructed to be restrictive in issuing back-to-back tourist visas.

What a lousy way to confuse readers, the "quote" is totally screwed, here is the real quote from the OP:

<may also be a strong indication that the Royal Thai Embassies and Consulates now also might have been instructed to be restrictive in issuing multiple back-to-back tourist visas.>

So twice it is mentioned "maybe" and "might". That means it is not sure at all, just speculation. Please keep it where it is!

As a general answer, like in case of the "Joe" who wants to spend a year with his Thai spouse: get a multiple entry Non-Immigrant visa in your home country, valid for one year, you just have to get out of and into the country every 90 days, which is NOT back-to-back running or whatever, it is conform the rules of the multiple non-immigrant visa, issued outside the Kingdom. There are many categories to apply for such a multiple non-immigrant visa, visiting spouse or kids is one of them, study, retirement (when over 50), voluntary job, business exploration as well as job exploration, investment, it's all possible. Just pretending to be a tourist and then work illegally is of course not amongst those possibilities.

Here a link, as an example the Thai embassy in the UK: http://www.thaiembassyuk.org.uk/?q=node/49

[enuff said]

.

but but but ..... the letter does mention "visa run"

If you have a three entry tourist visa and go to the border after 90 days and never actually go into the neighboring country cuz you only want a stamp to stay in Thailand... isn't that a visa run?

Jus' wunnerin',

'nuff said

~

[bubba]

The letter refers to the "visa exemption scheme". This is not the same as possessing a tourist visa, so it would appear not refer to tourist visas or multiple entry tourist visas.

Ummm ...

Thai Embassies and Consulates now has been instructed to be restrictive in issuing back-to-back tourist visas.

Embassies issue visas. Immigrations deals with visa exempt entries. The letter is written to embassies.

Exactly. If they were directing any new policy regarding visas, it seems they would have mentioned that, rather than only referring to "visa exempt".

It's interesting that the letter is written in English (well, sort of in English), and not Thai.

Edited July 1, 2014 by bubba

[KarenBravo]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited back to back visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

If you want to stay in Thailand long term, they want you to get the correct visa.

Unfortunately, the people that will be unfairly affected are those under 50 years old, unmarried, but retired.

Edited July 1, 2014 by KarenBravo

[Crossy]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

Yup, that ties up with my interpretation.

The Thai immigration definitions of 'unlimited' and 'back to back' are currently unknown

EDIT It's a shame that Thailand is not also updating its available visa classes to account for online workers, young retired persons and others of independent means (no I'm not in that group, I have to work for a crust or two).

[stevenl]

Sure, you just have to meet the requirements for both business startup and workpermit application.

Exactly, by which point you're not running your own 'online business' since you must have Thai partners (exception for Americans), an office and full time Thai staff.

Yes, of course there are criteria. Don't meet them, you're illegal, same now, same last year.

Right, so there is no way for a lot of people to do what they currently do legally, which was my point. We can all agree that people currently working here illegally could in theory work here legally if they did something else. The problem for Thailand is that a lot of people currently working here illegally are not engaged in criminal activity (aside from working illegally), or undermining the Thai workforce, but are actually filling gaps in the economy. Before Thailand cracks down on visa abuse they should make sure that their legal visa framework can support the work that they want doing. Or not, I suppose. It's their economy. They can screw it up if they want.

If that was your point, just say so, in stead of asking questions you know the answer to already.

Yes, working legally for online businesses is possible. Many don't do that now, and that won't change, except it will be more difficult for them. Makes sense though doesn't it, making life for people acting illegal more difficult?

Whether you, me or anybody else feels that what they are doing now should be facilitated is completely immaterial. If the people responsible for this feel so, they will reverse this decision (which was made way before the coup BTW), but at the moment that does not look likely.

What people are doing now is crying out 'life here is so unfair', when they already knew it was unfair when they started it here. This is the same behaviour the beach encroachers on Phuket, who are now being evicted, are demonstrating 'we have been here for many years so should be allowed to stay/ compensated, etc'. No. You were illegal, knew it, and have been (able to) getting away with it for a long time. So the government has no reason at all to be nice now.

BTW, I would just wait and see and not panick yet, these things tend to change quickly here once implemented.

[ubonjoe]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited back to back visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

If you want to stay in Thailand long term, they want you to get the correct visa.

Unfortunately, the people that will be unfairly affected are those under 50 years old, unmarried, but retired.

I think they may still issue back to back tourist visas buy you could have a problem when you are using them to get back to back 60 day entries from them.

There is not mention of tourist visa issuance in this or any other announcements that have come out.

[KarenBravo]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited back to back visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

If you want to stay in Thailand long term, they want you to get the correct visa.

Unfortunately, the people that will be unfairly affected are those under 50 years old, unmarried, but retired.

I think they may still issue back to back tourist visas buy you could have a problem when you are using them to get back to back 60 day entries from them.

There is not mention of tourist visa issuance in this or any other announcements that have come out.

Yes there is. Thai embassies have been instructed to be more careful when issuing visas. They will certainly start questioning back to back tourist visas. Seems logical.

They have publicly stated that they want people to get the correct visa. Someone who trys to get three back to back tourists visas is not a tourist.

If I can figure that out, so will the embassies.

Edited July 1, 2014 by KarenBravo

[Pattszero]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited back to back visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

If you want to stay in Thailand long term, they want you to get the correct visa.

Unfortunately, the people that will be unfairly affected are those under 50 years old, unmarried, but retired.

I think they may still issue back to back tourist visas buy you could have a problem when you are using them to get back to back 60 day entries from them.

There is not mention of tourist visa issuance in this or any other announcements that have come out.

As pointed out earlier - the OP does not match the letter.

George did say he was going to seek clarification.

[steve73]

If it was just about the money, as some posters have suggested, why not simply make a charge for a visa exemption (or a VOA) similar to the cost of a regular tourist visa, payable at immigration.....?

So clearly there is more to it than this... Also it seems an inneffective way to go about cutting down on illegal working. As I understand it, you need a WP even for volunteer or un-paid work - so it's unlikely to be even lost taxes, etc. that they're concerned about. (Judging by the numbers of posts from some of the more "productive" members of TV, some here appear to be "working" harder than if they actually were working...)

As to the previous suggestion of simply overstaying - obviously this cannot be condoned, but in the 8 years I've stayed here (all totally legal using a couple of 1yr ME non-O's until I turned 50 and then retirement extensions since) I have never had to show my passport/visa except when reporting/renewing at my local immigration office, leaving/returning to the country, or applying/renewing my Driving Licence, non of which would be a problem to long-term overstayers. Random passport checks may well become more of a requirement in the future in an effort to control this.

[Tatsujin]

Exactly, by which point you're not running your own 'online business' since you must have Thai partners (exception for Americans), an office and full time Thai staff.

Yes, of course there are criteria. Don't meet them, you're illegal, same now, same last year.

Right, so there is no way for a lot of people to do what they currently do legally, which was my point. We can all agree that people currently working here illegally could in theory work here legally if they did something else. The problem for Thailand is that a lot of people currently working here illegally are not engaged in criminal activity (aside from working illegally), or undermining the Thai workforce, but are actually filling gaps in the economy. Before Thailand cracks down on visa abuse they should make sure that their legal visa framework can support the work that they want doing. Or not, I suppose. It's their economy. They can screw it up if they want.

Whilst I agree that in an ideal world, there are many, many things that could be changed here to make it easier/better for people to stay and work here, for the benefit of all . . . however, I live in the real world, and until such time as the laws ARE changed, we're stuck with what is in place now . . . you make a choice about what to do . . . and follow the law/rules or not . . . I've chosen to follow the more important rules (which have more serious consequences if broken) . . . small things (pay cash fine on the spot or report to Police station the other side of Thailand for example) . . . I'll pay on the spot . . . but each to their own.

[TTom911]

As I understand it, THE ULTIMATE POINT of all of this is, however you twist and turn it, in addition to the proper formal procedure to be followed (in many cases, requiring proper visa applications through embassies outside Thailand):

- unless you have something like a "retirement" or "elite card" visa, or a non-immigration visa with work permit (and any visa similar to that) YOU CAN NOT STAY FOR MORE THAN 6 MONTH IN A YEAR IN THAILAND, meaning, you can not "live" in Thailand !

This was always the law, did not change.

As "factually as well as formally" correct the new approach may be, my prediction is that this might cause a lot of problems for THAI (!!) people... Places may get "cleaner" now, but "cleaner" will most likely also mean less (in some places MUCH less) money in the kitty (restaurant, any entertainment, apartments & (shop)houses for rent)... And that's where people might become disenfranchised with the "let's get our country clean" approach... and of course that is what the "old gangs" are waiting for... IT WILL COST and it will be interesting to see if people will accept that flip-side to the "cleaning coin"...

Edited July 1, 2014 by TTom911

[ubonjoe]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

Yup, that ties up with my interpretation.

The Thai immigration definitions of 'unlimited' and 'back to back' are currently unknown

EDIT It's a shame that Thailand is not also updating its available visa classes to account for online workers, young retired persons and others of independent means (no I'm not in that group, I have to work for a crust or two).

There will not be any problems for people that are doing 30 day entries once every couple of months like a person that is working a rotation.might do.

Back to back is leaving and returning on the same day in my interpretation. But if a person was to leave for just a day or two and turn around and stay for 30 days again and repeat it that would be a problem.

[dcpo]

If that was your point, just say so, in stead of asking questions you know the answer to already.

Yes, working legally for online businesses is possible. Many don't do that now, and that won't change, except it will be more difficult for them. Makes sense though doesn't it, making life for people acting illegal more difficult?

Whether you, me or anybody else feels that what they are doing now should be facilitated is completely immaterial. If the people responsible for this feel so, they will reverse this decision (which was made way before the coup BTW), but at the moment that does not look likely.

What people are doing now is crying out 'life here is so unfair', when they already knew it was unfair when they started it here. This is the same behaviour the beach encroachers on Phuket, who are now being evicted, are demonstrating 'we have been here for many years so should be allowed to stay/ compensated, etc'. No. You were illegal, knew it, and have been (able to) getting away with it for a long time. So the government has no reason at all to be nice now.

BTW, I would just wait and see and not panick yet, these things tend to change quickly here once implemented.

I'm not personally panicking as I'm here on a non-im B + work permit. However, in my opinion the current visa system in Thailand is broken and only functions at all because of the blind eye turned to various 'abuses', in the sense that, if and when all the loopholes are closed Thailand will become economically weaker and a noticeably worse place to live for Thais and non-Thais alike. Unless the visa/work permit system is reformed that is, which may happen.

[PREM-R]

Would I be right in suggesting that the quote:

"The published letter may also be a strong indication that the Royal Thai Embassies and Consulates now also might have been instructed to be restrictive in issuing multiple back-to-back tourist visas."

was made by George and is not attributed to the ministry of foreign affairs? George is stating his own opinion, not a statement from the ministry, is he not? I think that the " Source: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Bangkok, Thailand" at the end of George's OP makes it look as if this is an official statement but, is it not true that the only 'official' document is the attached letter.

Still it has brought more traffic to his website, so objective achieved.

[Pattszero]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

Yup, that ties up with my interpretation.

The Thai immigration definitions of 'unlimited' and 'back to back' are currently unknown

EDIT It's a shame that Thailand is not also updating its available visa classes to account for online workers, young retired persons and others of independent means (no I'm not in that group, I have to work for a crust or two).

There will not be any problems for people that are doing 30 day entries once every couple of months like a person that is working a rotation.might do.

Back to back is leaving and returning on the same day in my interpretation. But if a person was to leave for just a day or two and turn around and stay for 30 days again and repeat it that would be a problem.

That's just speculation.

You are assuming that the Thai authorities will have no problem issuing, let's say, six visa exemptions in a year.

I say that the border police will be all over people that have multiple visa exemption stamps like a rash.

[digibum]

If that was your point, just say so, in stead of asking questions you know the answer to already.

Yes, working legally for online businesses is possible. Many don't do that now, and that won't change, except it will be more difficult for them. Makes sense though doesn't it, making life for people acting illegal more difficult?

Whether you, me or anybody else feels that what they are doing now should be facilitated is completely immaterial. If the people responsible for this feel so, they will reverse this decision (which was made way before the coup BTW), but at the moment that does not look likely.

What people are doing now is crying out 'life here is so unfair', when they already knew it was unfair when they started it here. This is the same behaviour the beach encroachers on Phuket, who are now being evicted, are demonstrating 'we have been here for many years so should be allowed to stay/ compensated, etc'. No. You were illegal, knew it, and have been (able to) getting away with it for a long time. So the government has no reason at all to be nice now.

BTW, I would just wait and see and not panick yet, these things tend to change quickly here once implemented.

I'm not personally panicking as I'm here on a non-im B + work permit. However, in my opinion the current visa system in Thailand is broken and only functions at all because of the blind eye turned to various 'abuses', in the sense that, if and when all the loopholes are closed Thailand will become economically weaker and a noticeably worse place to live for Thais and non-Thais alike. Unless the visa/work permit system is reformed that is, which may happen.

Based on what facts? Do you know how much visa abusers contribute to the Thai economy?

All the changes that Thailand needs to make in order to get back on the developing nation path are going to be painful. Will a bunch of expats being forced to get legit visas or leave have some impact? Sure. A lot of bars and restaurants catering to expats might close. While it may impact things like Thai's renting to expats, I'm sure the slack demand will be absorbed fairly quickly as Thailand's RE market is already somewhat overheated. If they were living and working in Thailand illegally, chances are it will be a insignificant blip on tax revenues.

So, what is really the downside? It's not like you're scaring off real tourists. It's not hurting the people with legit visas, guys on expat packages involved in banking and legal, the really wealthy who can just create a sham business and get a work permit for themselves, etc. You're not hurting the executives of multi-national corporations setting up businesses in Thailand.

You're basically getting rid of a bunch of people living on fixed incomes or who are working illegally. Not exactly the desirable type to begin with (that's not a reflection on their character, just an economic reality). The rich expat living on tourist visas who is pumping tons of money into the Thai economy is a myth told my guys living on a fixed income or working illegally as a threat to what might happen. In fact, the same threat is used for everything. If the price of apartments keep going up, everyone is going to flee and crash the Thai economy. If they crack down on nightlife, the entire Thai economy is going to crash. If they change the visa requirements everyone in the world will cancel their travel plans and Thailand will sink into chaos. Blah, blah, blah. We've heard it all before and . . . it still hasn't happened.

[elgenon]

A 2 or 3 entry visa is STILL 1 visa!! Look in your passport and it shows 1 visa!

[dcpo]

If that was your point, just say so, in stead of asking questions you know the answer to already.

Yes, working legally for online businesses is possible. Many don't do that now, and that won't change, except it will be more difficult for them. Makes sense though doesn't it, making life for people acting illegal more difficult?

Whether you, me or anybody else feels that what they are doing now should be facilitated is completely immaterial. If the people responsible for this feel so, they will reverse this decision (which was made way before the coup BTW), but at the moment that does not look likely.

What people are doing now is crying out 'life here is so unfair', when they already knew it was unfair when they started it here. This is the same behaviour the beach encroachers on Phuket, who are now being evicted, are demonstrating 'we have been here for many years so should be allowed to stay/ compensated, etc'. No. You were illegal, knew it, and have been (able to) getting away with it for a long time. So the government has no reason at all to be nice now.

BTW, I would just wait and see and not panick yet, these things tend to change quickly here once implemented.

I'm not personally panicking as I'm here on a non-im B + work permit. However, in my opinion the current visa system in Thailand is broken and only functions at all because of the blind eye turned to various 'abuses', in the sense that, if and when all the loopholes are closed Thailand will become economically weaker and a noticeably worse place to live for Thais and non-Thais alike. Unless the visa/work permit system is reformed that is, which may happen.

Based on what facts? Do you know how much visa abusers contribute to the Thai economy?

All the changes that Thailand needs to make in order to get back on the developing nation path are going to be painful. Will a bunch of expats being forced to get legit visas or leave have some impact? Sure. A lot of bars and restaurants catering to expats might close. While it may impact things like Thai's renting to expats, I'm sure the slack demand will be absorbed fairly quickly as Thailand's RE market is already somewhat overheated. If they were living and working in Thailand illegally, chances are it will be a insignificant blip on tax revenues.

So, what is really the downside? It's not like you're scaring off real tourists. It's not hurting the people with legit visas, guys on expat packages involved in banking and legal, the really wealthy who can just create a sham business and get a work permit for themselves, etc. You're not hurting the executives of multi-national corporations setting up businesses in Thailand.

You're basically getting rid of a bunch of people living on fixed incomes or who are working illegally. Not exactly the desirable type to begin with (that's not a reflection on their character, just an economic reality). The rich expat living on tourist visas who is pumping tons of money into the Thai economy is a myth told my guys living on a fixed income or working illegally as a threat to what might happen. In fact, the same threat is used for everything. If the price of apartments keep going up, everyone is going to flee and crash the Thai economy. If they crack down on nightlife, the entire Thai economy is going to crash. If they change the visa requirements everyone in the world will cancel their travel plans and Thailand will sink into chaos. Blah, blah, blah. We've heard it all before and . . . it still hasn't happened.

There are a lot of teachers working illegally, even in big schools. Presumably the need for teaching in English is not met by the legal workforce. Also, it's not particularly controversial to suggest that economic protectionism as practised in Thailand is ultimately detrimental to a country's prosperity.

[stevenl]

After reading various articles, this is the way I see it.

Unlimited visa exemption stamps using an airport will be finished from 12th August.

Back to back tourist visas will also end. Tourists don't need multiple back to back tourist visas.

Yup, that ties up with my interpretation.

The Thai immigration definitions of 'unlimited' and 'back to back' are currently unknown

EDIT It's a shame that Thailand is not also updating its available visa classes to account for online workers, young retired persons and others of independent means (no I'm not in that group, I have to work for a crust or two).

There will not be any problems for people that are doing 30 day entries once every couple of months like a person that is working a rotation.might do.

Back to back is leaving and returning on the same day in my interpretation. But if a person was to leave for just a day or two and turn around and stay for 30 days again and repeat it that would be a problem.

<snip>

I say that the border police will be all over people that have multiple visa exemption stamps like a rash.

That's just speculation.

[Chillout101]

digibum

While it may impact things like Thai's renting to expats, I'm sure the slack demand will be absorbed fairly quickly as Thailand's RE market is already somewhat overheated.

What planet do you live on? I live in a luxury complex with around 800 condos, I guess around 200 of those are rented out to foreigners and at any given time around 200 are empty, as in noone to rent them. The story is the same all over Bangkok, empty condos and owners burning their pockets on the investment. On average in my complex we pay around 25-40k a month and do not tell me that it will be easy for owners to find new takers if the expats go. We are a bunch of people on visa waivers since we all work abroad and spend all our free time in Thailand.

I fixed my own visa act but I know many consider other options in SE Asia, the condo owners will be sleepless at night.

Form news today:

Thai households are among the most indebted in Asia, and the official figures understate the problem due to the large sums also owed to loan sharks — estimated at as much as 2.4 trillion baht ($74 billion).

At 9.79 trillion baht at the end of 2013, the household debt was 76% higher than in 2009, driven up by easy monetary policy and government stimulus measures that led consumers to splurge on cars, houses and electronic goods

I call that a BIG bubble!

[Pattszero]

@Stevenl

As you know it happened to me, so it's based upon personal experience.

Therefore - not speculation.

[stevenl]

@Stevenl

As you know it happened to me, so it's based upon personal experience.

Therefore - not speculation.

You were allowed to enter, easily, upon showing a ticket out. That is what you wrote earlier. You called that a big problem, and now you call it 'border police being all over people', I call it a very simple and easy check: you claim to be a tourist, you showed a ticket out and all was ok.

[oldsailor35]

How about the "Come learn Thai at my language school and we will get you a long term visa" advertisements that we often see. Will these schools still be able to use this 'loop hole' to increase their business.

[digibum]

There are a lot of teachers working illegally, even in big schools. Presumably the need for teaching in English is not met by the legal workforce. Also, it's not particularly controversial to suggest that economic protectionism as practised in Thailand is ultimately detrimental to a country's prosperity.

Another definitive number we can all debate, "a lot." :-)

There are also "a lot" of teachers teaching without degrees or training or any credentials whatsoever.

However, as long as we're talking economics, wouldn't the removal of "a lot" of teachers working illegally create excessive demand for qualified teachers? Wouldn't that increase the salaries of those teachers working legally? Wouldn't that then create pressure to increase the supply of teachers? Since schools could no longer recruit from the blackmarket of expats looking to fund their life in paradise, that would put pressure on the government to approve more visas for qualified teachers. Or, they may not even need to do that once ASEAN kicks in and they get access to a English speaking supply of Filipinos workers who can work in Thailand legally.

I think the crucial component you missed in your analysis is why schools hire teachers working illegally in Thailand. I can think of a few reasons (lower costs, low supply of qualified teachers, red tape, the ability to hold their illegal working status over their heads, etc) but either someone needs to study the issue and come up with some answers or someone needs to change a variable, such as the supply of blackmarket labor, and study the consequences of the change.

I agree that it's not controversial to suggest that economic protectionism can ultimately be detrimental to a country's prosperity. But I don't believe this to be a case of economic protectionism. It's not like Thais are suddenly going to be able to teach English. This change does not hit very many people who will be replaced by Thais.

What it is, is a first good step in starting with the low hanging fruit towards improving the country. Improving the quality of expat living in Thailand is low hanging fruit. I mean, there are "a lot" of expats living on the edge in Thailand. Too many. They might have been able to afford Thailand at 42 baht to the US dollar but those days are gone and an increasing number of expats are living more like locals than the money hose they were supposed to be.

And I don't mean the guy who gets married and lives up in Issan in his Baan Farang and supports himself with the money he socked away back home. I'm talking about the 30-something year old guy who "retires" to Pattaya living in a 5,000 baht a month room with no plan on how he's going to support himself once his money runs out. Or the guy who, once he's blown through his life savings, starts working illegally because he can't face going back home and-or can't explain a 10 year gap in his CV.

Thailand will not be a worse place without these people. I have nothing against them and I'm not passing judgement but there are just way, way, too many expats living in Thailand who should have gone home a long time ago.

Expats who have the means to actually support themselves without a job will find a way. If you have enough cash to live in Thailand without working illegally, chances are you can throw together a small company that breaks even and allows you to hire enough Thais to get a work permit. Or, you have enough cash to pay someone to put you on their books as an employee even if you never work. Or you can afford to get an ED visa and completely avoid border runs. There are plenty of options for the folks who have enough cash.

For instance, I have a friend who gets most of his money from doing stuff online. He makes a pretty good living doing it. At least $200K to $300K USD a year. He set up a company to do web design. About 2% of his revenue comes from Thailand and his Thai employees but he books all the revenue through his Thai company so he can get a work permit.

That's the guy who doesn't sweat immigration crack downs. Not the people claiming that without them, Thailand is falling into an economic abyss.

[Pattszero]

@Stevenl

As you know it happened to me, so it's based upon personal experience.

Therefore - not speculation.

You were allowed to enter, easily, upon showing a ticket out. That is what you wrote earlier. You called that a big problem, and now you call it 'border police being all over people', I call it a very simple and easy check: you claim to be a tourist, you showed a ticket out and all was ok.

I know you find this very entertaining - a wonderful way to pass an otherwise mundane day.

How many times do you think I would get away with that every year? six. seven, eight? Is it your contention that continuous use of visa exempt by flight is going to be okay after August 12?

I think not.

There is a pattern forming here of people "wishing it to be true" that they can continue flying in and out of the country six times a year on visa-exempt. Hey, I wish it was true too - nothing would suit me any better.

I don't believe that to be true , though.

I believe it's wishful thinking.

Only time will tell.

[rumbo1]

There are many people over 50 in Thailand with a retirement visa that have very little funds so it annoys me to hear all these experts harping on about how it won't affect them . I am here on a tourist visa , I arrived on a triple entry , went to Laos got a double entry and recently Hanoi with my Thai gf but would only be issued a single entry.

The thing that annoys me is I have a lot better finances than a lot of people on retirement visas but I'm not 50 for another 9 months so it's possible I will have to leave the country in August when my current visa ends.

Why does it bother you that some people followed the rules and won't be impacted? I'm not saying you have to take glee in their misfortune but it's pretty shortsighted to bet your retirement on a loophole in the Thai immigration law. Hell, it's shortsighted to base your retirement on any Thai law. The people who have gone through the process, done things the right way, and are being rewarded, should be somewhat happy that their faith in the rule of law paid off.

And why are you annoyed that you have to wait another 9 months to be eligible for a retirement visa? It's not like that law changed. Oh, or are you just annoyed that Plan A, take advantage of a loophole in Thai immigration law, isn't viable anymore so you have to do it the way you would likely have to do it in most other countries, and wait?

You obviously missed the point I was trying to make , I know many people that have retirement visas illegally , I.e pay someone approx 15,000 and receive a visa because they have insufficient funds and or income to get one legally.

I on the other hand have been doing every thing legally and just trying to get by till I'm 50 , I don't want to pay 500,000 to get an elite card when I've only got 9 months to wait and also things are changing all the time so could possibly lose a lot of money

I missed nothing. I understand your point. I don't understand why you're annoyed because the country has a very reasonable requirement that you be 50 years of age before they grant you a retirement visa. I don't understand why you're upset that you can't live in Thailand for 9 months on a tourist visa.

Nobody said you have to get an elite card. You just have to wait 9 months until you're 50. It's not an unreasonable request by the Thai government so quit pissing and moaning about it.

The age for the retirement visa has been 50 for as long as I can remember. It's not like that fact sneaked up on you. It's just that you thought you could take advantage of loopholes in Thai immigration law until then. Oh well, that's just how life goes sometimes. Get over it.

And I do not find joy in your situation but I do find great pain in hearing you rant about it. You're not the first guy to have their plans ruined in Thailand and you won't be the last.

Dear digibum maybe you should change you're name to Richard Cranium.

I don't know anything about you but would be interested to know you're age , what visa you have and how you obtained it.

What brought you out here to live in Los or are just one of those who sit at the computer all day trying to wind people up on forums and talking crap.

You sound like you're a perfect citizen and have never done any wrong ?

Perhaps maybe we could meet up for a beer sometime so you could tell me the secret to you're wonderful world