French burqa ban upheld by European courts

[webfact]

French burqa ban upheld by European courts
Rory Mulholland

PARIS: -- The European Court of Human Rights has upheld France's controversial ban on wearing a burqa or a niqab that covers the face in public, ruling that a 2010 law on religious headgear does not breach Muslim women's human rights.

The Strasbourg court ruled in the case brought by a British legal team acting for a devout French Muslim that there had been no violation of her right to respect private and family life, her right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and no breach of the prohibition of discrimination.

France has the largest Muslim community in western Europe, estimated at about 6 million, and some of the continent's most restrictive laws about expressions of faith in public.

The plaintiff, identified only by her initials SAS, had described herself as a "devout Muslim and she wears the burqa and niqab in accordance with her religious faith, culture and personal convictions". She insisted that "neither her husband nor any other member of her family puts pressure on her to dress in this manner".

The woman, a 24-year-old college graduate, had requested anonymity for fear of reprisals if her identity became known.

Full story: http://www.theage.com.au/world/french-burqa-ban-upheld-by-european-courts-20140702-zssvq.html

-- The Age 2014-07-02

[canopus1969]

Good sense at last - well done France

[JesseFrank]

About time that there being called a halt to the suppression of people by the Muslims in a foreign country.

[WitawatWatawit]

Damn. I was waiting to write the headline "Bobbies bust burqa bank bandit"

[submaniac]

Good for France for drawing a line in upholding its laws. I respect people's religion as much as anyone, but history has proven that religion and government do not mix. The law that is binding on everyone else is binding on a religious group too.

[Cthulhu]

Good sense at last - well done France

Well it's not really "well done France" is it?

The judgement was by the European Court of Human rights whose judges come from across Europe.

Note also that the case was brought by a Brititsh legal team. Britain has the most aggressive human rights lawyers, who will argue the most preposterous cases and try to exploit every ill judged comma in human rights legislation; usually to the overall detriment of law abiding Brits and British security. Probably the case was so ill devised that French lawyers wouldn't touch it.

So, "well done France" for having the legislation, but shame that French legislation and French national sovereignty are open to foreign (albeit EU) interference in this way.

[shirtless]

Finally some common sense, Go to a Muslim country and try an impose your religious views and they will probably stone you to death, Our Governments need to grow a set and stop pandering to these minorities.

[ravip]

Well done indeed!

Just a small question - If the ruling was done by an Asian court, would it be still well-done or 'rare'

[hercdogules]

Good sense at last - well done France

Well it's not really "well done France" is it?

The judgement was by the European Court of Human rights whose judges come from across Europe.

Note also that the case was brought by a Brititsh legal team. Britain has the most aggressive human rights lawyers, who will argue the most preposterous cases and try to exploit every ill judged comma in human rights legislation; usually to the overall detriment of law abiding Brits and British security. Probably the case was so ill devised that French lawyers wouldn't touch it.

So, "well done France" for having the legislation, but shame that French legislation and French national sovereignty are open to foreign (albeit EU) interference in this way.

wrong. france started this. all the british or the EU court did was uphold. please read the OP. france stepped up and put this on out of the park - good on ya frogs!

[7by7]

About time that there being called a halt to the suppression of people by the Muslims in a foreign country.

How does this woman's desire to wear a burqa oppress anyone in France?

She hasn't been identified, so how do you know she is living in a foreign country and not French?

Finally some common sense, Go to a Muslim country and try an impose your religious views and they will probably stone you to death, Our Governments need to grow a set and stop pandering to these minorities.

She wasn't trying to impose her religious views on anyone; merely wear a burqa as an expression of her own faith.

Now, before the resident Islam haters get on my case, having said that the court did, I think, get it right as the law is not discriminatory per se.

From Wikipedia

The 2004 French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools......forbids the wearing of any "ostensible" religious articles by students, but does not cite any item; yet, ministerial instructions appear to target the Islamic veil, the Jewish kippa, and large Christian crosses. Instructions permit discreet signs of faith, such as small crosses, Stars of David, and hands of Fatima. The law does not apply to parents or to students attending universities. However, teachers and other school personnel are also prohibited to display their religious affiliation on the basis of "public service neutrality". Similar policies are occasionally applied in other state organizations, such as personnel working in public hospitals.

.......

In September 2010, it became illegal to wear face coverings unless specifically needed to perform a function. It is illegal to wear the burqa in public in France. Fines are 150 euro for women wearing it and 30,000 euro for men forcing their wives to wear it, with up to one year in prison.

So, as the law on religious symbols in schools covers all religions and as the 'burqa ban' is not a ban on burqas but a ban on all face coverings except those needed to perform a function (ski masks on the piste?) then it cannot be discriminatory.

[Nemesis7]

Great work by the British legal team and France for accepting it's citizens religious right.

It's sad to see how only few limited shallow minded people passes racial comment over other religion. Let us learn to respect people and their religion. It's a matter if their faith and belief, we have no right to criticize their belief. We don't own them, do we?

And about the concept of the Muslim only are terrorist ?!? Think again, read , research. In the reckoning of religious extremism Hindu nationalists, Muslim militants, fundamentalist Christians, ultra-Orthodox Jews Buddhism all wet a party to terrorism in some do e for some where."

Bottom line is, there are good and bad people every where, in every country, religion but we shouldn't generalize the entire community for the minorities who take part on such mean act.

[Cthulhu]

Good sense at last - well done France

Well it's not really "well done France" is it?

The judgement was by the European Court of Human rights whose judges come from across Europe.

Note also that the case was brought by a Brititsh legal team. Britain has the most aggressive human rights lawyers, who will argue the most preposterous cases and try to exploit every ill judged comma in human rights legislation; usually to the overall detriment of law abiding Brits and British security. Probably the case was so ill devised that French lawyers wouldn't touch it.

So, "well done France" for having the legislation, but shame that French legislation and French national sovereignty are open to foreign (albeit EU) interference in this way.

wrong. france started this. all the british or the EU court did was uphold. please read the OP. france stepped up and put this on out of the park - good on ya frogs!

No sir, that's not correct.

The EU court did uphold France's position, but the crackpot British lawyers, from Birmingham Gawd 'elp up, were the ones who tried to get France's law overturned. (Also, see for additional interest the recent hoo-haa in the UK about the conspiracy to Islamise selected Birmingham schools).

But you're right on one thing: "good on ya Frogs!"

[bangon04]

"The woman, a 24-year-old college graduate, had requested anonymity for fear of reprisals if her identity became known."

but she will be easy to spot in public......

[Maroon Watcher]

It is not natural to restrain or restrict human nature - it is simply arrogant control.

WE KNOW THE TRUTH!

We are just trying to be civilised about it - that works both ways...

No matter what a woman shows in public she will dress it up - even if it's just the eyes.

[JesseFrank]

About time that there being called a halt to the suppression of people by the Muslims in a foreign country.

How does this woman's desire to wear a burqa oppress anyone in France?

She hasn't been identified, so how do you know she is living in a foreign country and not French?

I knew the defender of the realm was gone jump on me for this comment. You know very well that the burka is only the needle in the haystack and that the problem with muslims in Europe everywhere in the world is much bigger than that.

No need to reply as I will not respond in this thread anymore. I made myself clear and I hold on to my right on freedom of expression, something that is not often appreciated on this forum, so I will keep it for myself .

[ggt]

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Great work by the British legal team and France for accepting it's citizens religious right.
It's sad to see how only few limited shallow minded people passes racial comment over other religion. Let us learn to respect people and their religion. It's a matter if their faith and belief, we have no right to criticize their belief. We don't own them, do we?
And about the concept of the Muslim only are terrorist ?!? Think again, read , research. In the reckoning of religious extremism Hindu nationalists, Muslim militants, fundamentalist Christians, ultra-Orthodox Jews Buddhism all wet a party to terrorism in some do e for some where."
Bottom line is, there are good and bad people every where, in every country, religion but we shouldn't generalize the entire community for the minorities who take part on such mean act.

Unfortunately...in the case of Muslims...very few countries are exempt from extremist lawlessness...which shines a bright light on all Muslims...justified or not...

[Raymonddiaz]

It is as simple as this: you have the right to show your ass but you don't have the right to cover your body...........Do what you want with your body but please don't cover it...well done France .....keep on dividing your people

[Credo]

It is as simple as this: you have the right to show your ass but you don't have the right to cover your body...........Do what you want with your body but please don't cover it...well done France .....keep on dividing your people

You can cover it or uncover pretty much as you wish, but the covering can't be of the type that would be religious symbolism.

[NeverSure]

How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

[ClutchClark]

What the heck is with the above couple posts?

Have some posters found the last stash of madness pills?

Aren't some of these posters the very ones who get angry when a non-US citizen dares have an opinion about a US topic?

[rgs2001uk]

How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

I agree with everything you say, please Mr Putin if you are reading this, please come and rescue us from this PC Junta.

My friends from Texas express the same views about some pinko commie socialist dictating to them what should happen in their state.

Go for it Texas, break from the union, let the commie state of kalifornia pay its own bills, lets not forget the good socialists of Detroit.

Un believable.

Luckily we now have the self decalred ISIS/L Muslim caliphate for all the followers of the religion of peace to migrate to.

No money, never mind, the RAF are laying on free flights, go and pick up your free housing, medical benefits, free schooling, and pensions.

Allah Akbar (hope there is no Malaysian nutter reading this about to issue a fatwa).

Oh yeah....Putin. Just the guy to rescue the EU from PC....

Swearing off bad language: Russia bans cussing in films, books, music

(CNN) -- Thinking about making a film? Better leave out the foul language if you want it to be seen in Russia. The same goes for plays. Even rock stars will need to leave their potty mouths at home.

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed off on a new law Monday that bans swearing at arts, cultural and entertainment events in the country.

Any new film containing obscene language won't be granted a distribution certificate, so there's no chance of seeing it at the movie theater.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/europe/russia-swearing-law/

Well done Vlad, go for it.

Personally I would rather be under Vlads boot than that of the PC gone mad brigade of the EU.

Swearing, doesnt that reflect a poor grasp of your own language.

I used to frequent a bar in Suk soi 33, the owners choice of effin language every second effin word word soon had me effin pissed off.

Great stuff, booked your one way flight to the "caliphate" yet have you?

Thought not.

[phantomfiddler]

Anyone wearing a burqa in a civilized country should be immediately immobilized as a potential terrorist threat

[sustento]

Wifebeaters and sox 'n sandals next

[Morch]

I agree with everything you say, please Mr Putin if you are reading this, please come and rescue us from this PC Junta.

My friends from Texas express the same views about some pinko commie socialist dictating to them what should happen in their state.

Go for it Texas, break from the union, let the commie state of kalifornia pay its own bills, lets not forget the good socialists of Detroit.

Un believable.

Luckily we now have the self decalred ISIS/L Muslim caliphate for all the followers of the religion of peace to migrate to.

No money, never mind, the RAF are laying on free flights, go and pick up your free housing, medical benefits, free schooling, and pensions.

Allah Akbar (hope there is no Malaysian nutter reading this about to issue a fatwa).

Oh yeah....Putin. Just the guy to rescue the EU from PC....

Swearing off bad language: Russia bans cussing in films, books, music

(CNN) -- Thinking about making a film? Better leave out the foul language if you want it to be seen in Russia. The same goes for plays. Even rock stars will need to leave their potty mouths at home.

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed off on a new law Monday that bans swearing at arts, cultural and entertainment events in the country.

Any new film containing obscene language won't be granted a distribution certificate, so there's no chance of seeing it at the movie theater.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/europe/russia-swearing-law/

Well done Vlad, go for it.

Personally I would rather be under Vlads boot than that of the PC gone mad brigade of the EU.

Swearing, doesnt that reflect a poor grasp of your own language.

I used to frequent a bar in Suk soi 33, the owners choice of effin language every second effin word word soon had me effin pissed off.

Great stuff, booked your one way flight to the "caliphate" yet have you?

Thought not.

Personally I would rather not be under anyone's boots. The whole S&M stuff doesn't do much for me.

Russians seem to think the ban excessive, and are a bit worried it could go further than that.

Just pointing out Putin isn't quite the champion of freedom of expression. Not much for swearing and

cussing, myself.

Probably wouldn't be too welcome in the caliphate, so I'll pass, Thanks.

As for the burqa thing - find it kinda ridiculous in general, like a mobile version of burying one's head in the sand.

"If we can't see it - it ain't there". France wants to prohibit it, that's fine. Same way women aren't allowed to show

much skin in Muslim countries, which doesn't seem to entail court cases over there.

[MJP]

How about a burqa ban unless they're ugly?

[rgs2001uk]

How about a burqa ban unless they're ugly?

Go and spend some time in the ME, you will soon understand why they were introduced in the first place, couldnt have Mohd losing face by having his friends see how much dowry he had paid for a camel.

Franky those Greco/Romanesque noses dont do much for me, some of them look like a ski slope, much prefer the Thai versions.

If some of those women turned round abruptly they may well be up for assault with a deadly weapon.

[MJP]

How about a burqa ban unless they're ugly?

Go and spend some time in the ME, you will soon understand why they were introduced in the first place, couldnt have Mohd losing face by having his friends see how much dowry he had paid for a camel.

Franky those Greco/Romanesque noses dont do much for me, some of them look like a ski slope, much prefer the Thai versions.

If some of those women turned round abruptly they may well be up for assault with a deadly weapon.

As subtle and graceful as a meadow in a mild summer evening breeze as ever old friend.

[mrpositive]

France, the great bastion of liberty. One day France surely will reflect differently on today's interpretation of the motto of the French Revolution. Canada and the U.S. banning the wearing of Crucifixes and Stars of David will similarly seem retrospectively odd.

In this day and age to so often hear such (sorry..) emphatically wilful ignorance, from seemingly intelligent people from so called 'free' societies, boggles me nauseous.

Like it or not - here are a couple of truths.

Banning the Burqa (face veil), or Niqab (body covering) is a senselss deprivation of liberty.

Burqa's are not some kind of 'Count of Monte Cristo' style mask, enforced upon the innocent by some oppressive male hegemony or diabolical misogynistic cult. Women choose to wear it, and don't need 'saving' from a 'well intended' non-muslim public.

I'm not going to extoll the virtues of the ridiculously obvious, when it comes to freedom of dress, and how harmless it is, apart from when denied as a cultural right.

Now, wearing a stastika, public nudity, race hate motifs and so on... well, I can understand the potential for offence.

Dancing around like a fairy in a park with long hair, a beard, and posies in your locks, hmm... the 60's surely highlighted that freedom.

Let's get back to business.

We know there's nothing wrong with these types of religious apparel. It just looks a bit funny or out of place to some people in society who are unused to seeing it. Nothing more. And guess what? That's ok. Be polite and respectful. Get over it, and get used to it. Turns out having different cultures in society is quite good for everyone. There's lots of cool stuff to share. Trust me.

So, lastly.. the only valid issue mentioned with regards to this. Public security. Yes, this is a fair and practical issue. And guess what? Great, wonderful, friendly, normal muslim countries have dealt with this issue. Turns out it's no different than the issue of going into a bank wearing a motorbike helmet. So, in places like banks and some government offices, as a matter of security and identification, people are required to remove their motorcycle helmet. If you don't like it, don't go inside - simple as that. As a helpful service to customers, banks and other offices allow a queue for women with religious or cultural needs. No biggie, and actually - I think it's quite nice. Anything wrong with making people more comfortable and respected in the world? What are we hoping to teach our kids... intolerance?

The strange thing here is, that the only valid issue - being that of security, and easily fixed, was the one reason that was denied by the ECHR.

A bizarre, shameful and embarrassingly inept outcome indeed. Vive la difference.

Peace and Love.

P.S. A Very Happy Ramadan to the millions of good muslims out there in a world. Peace be upon us all.

[delh]

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How in the HELL does France get itself an a position where it needs the approval of some multinational higher power to uphold its own laws?

How in the HELL do British lawyers get standing to sue France before a multinational court for passing its own laws?

How in the HELL does France give up its national sovereignty to some multinational group that the people of France don't directly elect by themselves?

What in the HELL is wrong with European countries to cede their borders to every idiot who comes along?

How in the HELL can this story be happening in the first place?

Ask the european politicians. They have created the madness without offering the masses a chance to vote.

[Nayet]

Great work by the British legal team and France for accepting it's citizens religious right.

It's sad to see how only few limited shallow minded people passes racial comment over other religion. Let us learn to respect people and their religion. It's a matter if their faith and belief, we have no right to criticize their belief.

Yes, we absolutely do have that right, and while we should tolerate peaceful Muslims / adherents of other religions, by no means are we obligated to show them any particular respect for their deeply irrational beliefs.